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| Not Bourbon (except one mint julep on Kentucky Derby Day, for tradition's sake only!)
Well, after almost 20 years of rose growing I think I finally decided this: I love deep cupped or "chalice" shaped roses, with graceful form, light airy foliage, exquisite fragrance, delicate coloring, and an allover air of elegance. I've stayed away from the bourbons and most of the HPs because of reputed disease issues but the few I've dabbled in are in every way satisfying to my soul. So now I'm looking not only at the bourbons, but modern copies, such as some DAs. Granted I'm still going to keep my other roses, especially my landscape workhorses, but I'm willing to grow a few divas just for that rush of pleasure on the opening of that first glorious bloom of the season. So now I need y'all to give me the skinny on the very best, must have bourbons or look-alikes that do it for you. I know you all have at least one that is a secret love, even when it is very, very bad and you threaten it with the shovel! |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by cincy_city_garden OH 6a (My Page) on Wed, Jan 23, 08 at 20:11
| I love Bourbons too! The cupshaped flower form is my favorite. I have Deuil de Dr. Reynaud, Zephirine Drouhin, Joseph Goudreau, Honorine de Brabant, and Louise Odier. All healthy with every other week spraying...hardly divas for what they give in return. I have on order Martha (lighter sport of Zephrine) Maggie, Madame d'Enfert, Madame de Sevigne, Madame Isaac Pereire, Madame Pierre Oger, and Souvenir de la Malmaison. On the wish list is Madame Ernest Calvat and La Reine. As for monderns, I think Jean Rex, Falstaff, Pretty Jessica, and Home and Garden (Kordes) remind me of Bourbons, and the Portland Comte de Chambord and the HP Yolande de Aragon have that great cup shape. Eric |
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- Posted by thonotorose FL 9 (My Page) on Wed, Jan 23, 08 at 22:30
| I am becoming very happy with Blanche Lafitte. It is a white with a very good fragrance and has been blooming very well for a 1 gallon bought in September. It is still in the pot in the ghetto. I do not spray and it is looking quite healthy. Not a lot of blooms at once, yet, but continually putting them out. The blooms are shown at HMF as a blush white. However I find them to be almost a ..... Hmmmm... Perhaps it would be more descriptive to say that they have hints of lavender grey in the shadows of the white. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Blanche Lafitte
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- Posted by gnabonnand 8a Metro Dallas, TX (My Page) on Thu, Jan 24, 08 at 7:38
| I agree that the bourbons are alluring. Every garden should have at least one. I love my SdlM (and Maggie is beautiful for this area). I hope you try Madame Pierre Oger, just so I can see your pictures of it (it's an amazing looking rose to me). Randy |
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- Posted by mendocino_rose z8 N CA. (My Page) on Thu, Jan 24, 08 at 9:47
| All of the above are wonderful. For a small bourbon try Mistress Bosanquet. It has a great rebloom. |
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| Among the David Austin English Roses start with HERITAGE. It has the graceful growth habit, light airy foliage, and beautiful chalice shaped blooms that you so admire. Lovely fragrance too and excellent repeat bloom. The delicate pink color and translucent petals remind me of sheer silk. Thorns are insignificant. She does get some black spot, which is easily controlled with spraying. Petals also drop quickly at bloom maturity but vase life is actually good provided you cut the flower while in tight bud. HERITAGE is IMHO a classic rose and a good introduction to the Austins. Image of HERITAGE by Randy (gnabonnand) |
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| Madame Pierre Oger when grown well is the perfect Bourbon-think of a perfect nest of shell pink cups of the most thin and fragile bone china with a wonderful heady fragrance....so beautiful....and so ugly when the thrips invade. Thrips love the blush pinks and whites. A good red if you are elastic enough to consider those is Sir Joseph Paxton..amazing bloom on a nice arching plant. patricia |
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| I love Bourbons, too! Incredible fragrance and good repeat bloom, they are wonderful. Mystic Beauty and Souvenir de St. Annes are more compact. Mystic Beauty
Souvenir de St. Annes
Mme Pierre Oger and Reine Victoria are taller growing. Mme Pierre Oger
Reine Victoria
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| Thank you all! I'm still trying to figure out which ones to add this year. I only have SDLM, Maggie and Great Western so far. They all are so tempting. To narrow down the choices I think I'll eliminate Reine Victoria (and all her sports) due to BS issues. I know, it's a gorgeous, quitessential bourbon, but, well I've got to draw a line somewhere! I like Mme Isaac Pereire and Mme Ernst Calvat. I also like Mme Bosanquet and Blanche Lafitte. And ZD and Kathleen Harrop. Besides the Bourbons, I'm looking at Sydonie and Yolande d'Aragon. Also, some DAs - thanks Patrick, Heritage is definitely on the list. I should probably start a whole new thread on globe-shaped DAs. There are so many new ones I have yet to learn about. Keep the suggestions and pics coming! It's great, thank you all so much. |
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| I have SDLM, Kron Princessin Viktoria, Catherine Guillot, Capt Dyel de Graville, Zephrine, and Romaggi Plot Bourbon I have yet to meet a bourbon I did'nt love,,,, Ashdowns is currently offering a wonderful Bourbon Madame de Sevigne but I don't have the space for it. As for moderns that fit my bourbon love theres Yves Piaget form and fragrance and Pretty Jessica Yves Piaget  Sdlm  Catherine Guillot  Capt Dyel  KronPrincessin Viktoria  |
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| Mme Ernst Calvat, Kathleen Haroop are two I love and I prefer the lighter pinks to their deeper pink sport-parents. Kathleen H has been remarkably disease resistant in my garden... Mme Ernst BS and defoliates without spraying, but is vigorous enough to shrug it off and grow new leaves in time for the Autumn flush. Mme Blanche Lafite is a great rose -- reminds me of a Noisette with smaller clustered flowers. Always in bloom. Austins that have cupped-shaped flowers include Heritage, Rose-Marie (white sport of Heritage), Crocus Rose, and Jude the Obscure. |
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- Posted by gnabonnand 8a Metro Dallas, TX (My Page) on Thu, Jan 24, 08 at 22:05
| Yes, yes, yes on 'Heritage'. Its blooms remind me of an old centifolia rose. Excellent fragrance too (per my nose). Randy |
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| I love Bourbons too. I have SdlM Rouge, Maggie, Mystic Beauty, SdlM, Mme. de Sevigne, Souv. de St. Annes, Mme. Dore, Commandant Beaurepaire, Coquette des Blanches, Romaggi Plot Bourbon, Comtesse de Rocquigny, Edith de Murat and there may be others but I haven't had enough coffe yet. You could say I love them alot :-) Carol |
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| I've come to the conclusion that if it is SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON or a sport of SdlM then I'm pretty much gonna love it. |
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| Abraham Darby is a wonderful cup shaped rose with exquisite apricot-pink coloration, huge flowers and very good repeat. It's one of my very favorite roses with no disease in my garden. Teasing Georgia is another DA with a cup shape and wonderful yellow color. I wouldn't be without either of them. Ingrid |
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| I had a passionate affair with bourbons every time I went down to Georgia in the 90's on business, especially Maker's Mark - the smoothest full body version of a bourbon, excellent color and fragrance that left no aromatic after bite. Old Foresters, Rebel Yell and assorted others are not quite up to grade of MM.... oops wrong plant. I presently grow the zone 3 small versions of the following bourbons and they along with the portlands are my favorite OGR's: Boule de Neige - different source to see if a healthy verion available Coming in spring: Boule De Neige - different source to see if a healthy verion available |
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- Posted by jumbojimmy (My Page) on Fri, Jan 25, 08 at 23:39
| Could someone here please provide me some info on this rose, "Mme Pierre Oger"? I want to add this rose to my mail order list. ie. would you recommend this rose? Is it fragrant? Does it repeat well? Does it have ferocious thorns? Does it last long in a vase? |
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| riku, I grew Mrs. Bosanquet years ago and at that time it was not listed as a Bourbon. If memory serves, I thought I was buying a China rose and must say that in color, fragrance and appearance it doesn't resemble the Bourbons I'm familiar with. It had good rebloom but the blooms were not at all spectacular, although delicate and attractive in appearance. It will be interesting to see what your take is on it. Ingrid |
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- Posted by cupshaped_roses 5b (My Page) on Sat, Jan 26, 08 at 19:57
| I do seem to have a preference for cupshaped roses .... and Bourbons are among my favorite roses. Very few roses match their shape, scent and beauty and they are very good as cut flowers. My Favorite Austins that has some resemblance to bourbons are: Dr. Herbert Gray:
Pretty Jessica is also a very good Bourbon look-a-like! Heritage is outstanding!:
A smaller Austin rose than Heritage is Scepter D Isle: (has a strong sweet myrrh scent ...and pumps out flowers! (Harryshoe has some nice pictures of that rose too)
Another rose that is good as a landscape rose if you have plenty of room is Leonardo Da Vinci ( A Meilland romantica rose, sadly it does not have much scent...but blooms and repeat very well and becomes a nice bush (4 feet tall and wide after 3 years):
Jimmy: Mme Pierre Oger is a really good bourbon! It is very fragrant and repeats well after a few years. But knowing that you grow roses in pots. I can not recommend it for you. It will become a big leggy/lanky rose ... Too big for pot. Also it has has really bad disease-resistance so not sure it worth the hassle. I would recommend you try Scepter´D Isle instead, It grows well in a pot and you don´t have any other roses with a strong myrrh scent, which you may or may not like. It is a sweet scent but some thinks it smells too medicinal for them. Like Facepowder or cream. |
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- Posted by gnabonnand 8a Metro Dallas, TX (My Page) on Sat, Jan 26, 08 at 21:13
| That vase of 'Heritage' is incredible. It's one of my favorite smelling roses, so I can just imagine the scent with that many blooms together. Randy |
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- Posted by azmutabilis z9 AZ desert (My Page) on Sat, Jan 26, 08 at 21:37
| I love them too! I fell in love with them after seeing the specimens at Descanso Gardens when I lived in southern California. I have
The cupped Austins I love are Pat Austin, Golden Celebration, Dark Lady, Sharifa Asma, Tradescant, and Mary Rose. All my roses are grown organically, but blackspot isn't a problem here in the desert. Thrips are, so I have very few blush or white roses. |
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- Posted by jumbojimmy (My Page) on Sun, Jan 27, 08 at 2:32
| cupshaped_roses - thanks for replying. I agree with Randy, that photo of Heritage is AMAZING, and your garden behind that vase looks very intriguing as well. I bought Gertude Jekyll last weekend, and you were absolutely right about her wonderful fragrance. She smells SO delicious (lychees, to my nose, maybe). I've always wanted to add an OGR to my rose collection. Maybe, I should just stick to the modern ones instead for the time being. linrose- I'm also big fan of deep cupped shaped roses as well. Today (Sunday) I got myself a delbard rose, 'Sister Emmanuelle'. Her flowers are beautifully cupped of lilac/pink colour and has this powerful scent of lavender and aniseed according to the description. Almost as strong as Gertrude Jekyll except that I prefer GJ scent. azmutabilis - is that second photo really Mme P. Oger?
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- Posted by paddlehikeva Piedmont VA_Z7 (My Page) on Sun, Jan 27, 08 at 9:13
I think I need more Bourbons. I love Madame Dore  Kathy |
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| I also love Bourbons Deuil de Dr Reynaud SDLM Mme d'Enfert Unnamed Bourbon seedling Olga |
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| Jumbojimmy, Mme Pierre Oger makes a beautiful cut flower. I can't recall how many days it lasts in a vase, however... It does have wonderful fragrance. Here are a few pics of it in a vase. In the first pic, Evelyn is next to it.
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| I'm definately in love with Bourbons. I only have two, Mme Isaac Pereire and Louise Odier, but they are in my top-favorite group, and I'm lusting for more. First on the list, SDLM and Mme Pierre Oger. On the subject of bourbons, someone here suggested more vigorous pruning, which I'm about to try. Looking forward to posting pics of the results. |
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| Oh, be still my heart! Thank you all so much for the incredible photos and much needed insight into these very special roses. It appears I am not alone in my lust! I am so pleased to see so many responses, I now have to sift through them all to help make some decisions. riku, my DH LOVES Maker's Mark - we live in Kentucky now and the distillery is just up the road apiece from us, but it is so expensive we reserve it for special occasions, kinda like champagne! And I just have to marvel at your selections of bourbons (roses,that is) - and in zone 3! All I can say is WOW! krista, your pic of Reine Victoria is mouthwatering. Now that's a rose! labrea, Catherine Guillot looks enchanting - so many petals, is it vigorous? Gorgeous. azmutabalis, that pic of Mme Pierre Oger is to die for! So perfect in form and delicate in color. olga, your photos really knocked my socks off! Especially Dueil de Dr Reynaud. Even if you are not a fan of dark/bright pink, ya gotta love it! Incredible. I know you grow no spray or minimal spray - I'd be interested to know how your bourbons fare. I'm a no spray growing and big into companion planting so even my big roses that defoliate are a bit camoflaged by perennials in mid/late summer when they are the most naked. Is that unamed seedling one of your babies? It's lovely. As for the bourbon look-alikes, Heritage has to be my number one choice. I've grown it in the past and it will find a home here now for sure. Delicious photos from Patrick and cupshaped - thank you so much! cupshaped - you have captured the essence of what I am looking for in your photos, now I have to get all of them! I'd love to see a list of all your roses sometime. I think when I started out thinking about bourbons I had the form of Reine Victoria in mind, very bowl shaped, not necessarily full of petals. But now I think I love another form as well, that of Mme Pierre Oger and the romantica Leonardo da Vinci above. They remind me of Charles de Mills - very full of petals, with several encircling outside petals, and a whole lot of "quartered" or frilled petals inside. And they look as if they were cut off flat on the tops. I love both forms. As all of you here know, there is something special about an old rose, what is it that would make you chose one of these bourbons over a look-alike (or not?) Maybe a question for another thread but since we are already talking about both, what about it?
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| So there I was looking up Maker's Mark on help me find. Nothing. So I did a google search and learned alllllllllllll about them. For instance a rose was often used as the symbol. Then this website turned up, Mission Liquor in California, where you can get a fine Bourbon named Maker's Mark for $19.99. And i knew I'd been had by the Velveeta Cheese Rose Dudes again. |
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| Velveeta Cheese Rose Dudes????? |
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| Linrose, sorry I din't see this earlier. I do spray my DdDR from May to August, approx every 4 weeks with Banner Maxx and then stop. It stays clean with this approach. I love this rose so much that I have it on my short list of Divas that require spraying. I can't bring myself to part with this rose. The last picture is one of my seedlings that I am keeping eye on. Olga |
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| Olga - Your photo of DdDR is enough to make me break out the sprayer too! I saw your post about your "crazy theories" and I've been following it closely. Is Banner Maxx a systemic? Sorry, I don't know anything about fungicides, I've never sprayed anything but baking soda and dishsoap! I really admire your Bourbon Baby - have you named it yet? |
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| olga, I love your Deuil de Dr Reynaud! Do you have any photos that were taken this year? |
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| In my climate not all Bourbons are created equal. I tried only the short ones and SdlM is by far the largest, most healthy and most prolific bloomer. Kronprinzessin Viktoria is gone, growing ever weaker with blackspot and general malaise. Mme. Cornelissen I still have but she's far from the beautiful rose she was in the beginning. I'm doing my best to coddle her back to her former self. Mme. Dore is also struggling, never having grown much above one and a half feet, and also in recovery mode right now. Her blooms are very lovely, though. Romaggi Plot Bourbon is also short but covered with leaves and very healthy. A delicate beauty, but unfortunately here the flowers are very fleeting. Nevertheless, they're all staying. They have a charm of their own that I would really miss. Some of the Austins have a similar beauty but, except for Potter and Moore, they have a hard time in my garden. I wish more people would consider PaM, which is available own-root from Rogue Valley Roses. The bush stays small and mannerly and rebloom is excellent. The blooms are gorgeous and packed with petals, looking exactly like an old rose. Ingrid |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Thu, Oct 23, 14 at 18:29
| Mme Pierre Oger is so beautiful that she brings tears to my eyes, literally. Thanks for reminding me to balance quality with quantity. |
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| This is what Heritage looks like in central KY: |
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