Gean -- We grow Blush Noisette and "Placerville White Noisette" which is also called "Jacob Zeisz."
In size and habit, they are identical for us.
Both are beautiful, rounded Shrubs, covered with bloom all through the year. Flawless foliage.
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They need deadheading (to my lazy self, that is a flaw) but if you ignore them long enough, the old blooms WILL eventually fall.

A slightly smaller plant is "Roseville Noisette," which was found in an old railroading town, NE of Sacramento, by Barbara Oliva.
This one's not in commerce, other than at Sac. Cemetery sales -- but I love it.
It's a smaller plant, and a slower-grower than B.N. or PWN/JZ --
but the blooms are a bit larger and flatter.

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(("Roseville Noisette")

I COVET Old Grey Cemetery.

I have heard suggestions that Martha Washington and Jacob Zeisz are the same.

I have seen "Pale Pink Noisette," which some equate with 'Jeanne d'Arc.'
In the cemetery where I met it, the thing was up way over my head. 10 ft??? More??
The blooms were a bit smaller, looser, far fewer petals, less-formal. They opened pure white, but faded a soft pink.
This one wouldn't be my first choice.

Any of the others, tho, I'd recommend.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful:

The only ones that I have (or have had) are Nastarana, Mary Washington, and Camellia Rose. Nastarana doesn't bloom as frequently as Mary Washington and isn't as disease resistant.
Camellia Rose was so ugly that I gave it away. The blooms were sorry looking nasty things and the foliage looked cruddy. I thought it was just my garden, but then I saw it in person at Vintage and it looked just as bad there.
Oops I forgot Haynesville Pink Cluster. It grew, in the span of one season, into a monsterous thing that was healthy but otherwise not at all remarkable. It took up WAY too much space for a bland rose. I SPd it.
I'd guess you could say I'm not a shrub noisette fan, even though Mary Washington is one of my top 5 favorite roses.

I have Natchitoches Noisette, too, Gean, in the ground 2 years exactly. It's a nice healthy bush, probably 3.5 high x 5 wide but not much blooming. We'll see this spring what happens.

I also have a baby Blush Noisette (only a month and a half) that's got a first bud on it. Can't wait to see it.

Not a whole lotta help, am I? I will say this, though, I chose NN out of total ignorance, or rather the recommendation of the nursery owner, and BN after researching on the net. Photos, fragrance and bloom were all pleasing to me. So I hope it works out. Also, it's kind of exciting to have a 1st or 2nd generation noisette - a truly American old garden rose.

Sherry

Natchitoches N is a pretty rose; I hope it does well for you both, Sherry and Sammy.

Jeri, that picture must be a prized possession, with Da Kernal and Clay as well as a gorgeous rose. Roseville is pretty; I like those blooms. Guess I'll have to wait until it's in commerce!

If I were to deadhead BN, how would you recommend it to be done?

Carrie, thanks for your comments. I'd thought about Nastarana but decided to pass on it so am glad to hear your opinion of it.

Gean, that IS a prized possession.
That was taken on the last rose rustle we did with Da Kernel, and I am so glad that I took a LOT of photos.

FWIW, the way EYE deadhead BN, I just snip (or snap) off the blooms, above the cane. Then, the rose pushes up new growth from wherever it wants to.
If you wait long enough, you can grab them, twist and pull, and they will all sort of snap off more or less at the abcission point.

Jeri

Beauty is clearly in the eye of the beholder. Camellia Rose is a rose that I think is one of the most beautiful in my garden. Its flowers are rather informal, and the sprays are loose and graceful.

My Noisettes are taking some time getting going but a couple that I'm more pleased with (besides Camellia Rose) include Tutta's Pink, Mrs. Woods Lavender Noisette and Belle Vichysoise.

I'm looking forward to having glorious Noisettes one day.

Robert

Do you have Fellenburg? It looks pretty, but I have never heard of it.
Sammy

Sammy, no I don't have Fellenberg. It is pretty, though. I don't have many climbers at all. Maybe one day!

Robert said: I'm looking forward to having glorious Noisettes one day.

Me too, Robert!

Thanks for your comments, everyone.

I love Camellia Rose
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Wow, Melva, that is a glorious noisette!

Thanks!

La Biche.

'La Biche,' which is really 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'
GREAT rose!

Jeri

First, I can second and third some of those y'all have mentioned as I've had them for about a decade.
Many of my noisettes are growing in heavy clay so they don't reach the sizes that others in warmer climates have (and their nicer soils would be appreciated by my roses, but my roses don't know better, so they grow in acidic clay.)
Natchidoches Noisette is a favorite, broader than tall and great pink globular blooms.
Mary Washington (Mine is almost a bonsai version but happily blooms away.)
Mrs Woods LP Noisette- probably my finest lavender rose, more columnar than wide.

Old Grey Cemetery- mines now 6, densely stemed with what I'd call a short vase shape. Surprisingly healthy in spite of lack of care.

Redoute Red- (Roses Unlimited)- If you are looking for habitat for the smallest birds, you should grow multiples of this rose- The stems are find and dense and superb habitat (on line with Bridal Wreath). Lovely small double blooms. I'm looking forward to growing open pollinated seeds from this bush.

Fellemburg (I think Melva had a great photo of this one)- much larger with more tea like canes- not red in the modern sense, but pink-purple in a saturated color. Mine doesn't bloom all over the way some folks report that theirs do, but the color adds interst to the garden.

Where to prune?
I don't. Again...clay and not much added water. But I do understand that they came from R. moschata, and you need to know that R. moschata puts out new growth from within the sprays that grace the new canes. Usually I see new growth coming out from one of the three lowest bloom of a spray of forty or so blooms. Cut too low, and you'll wait longer for the new sprays to emerge. Don't cut at all, and the new spray will come sooner (as most of the hips don't set by open pollination.)
I've never grown these where there's no freeze damage; I can only dream about conditions where these might get too big.

THIS INFORMATION IS GOLDEN:

Where to prune?
I don't. *** they came from R. moschata *** R. moschata puts out new growth from within the sprays that grace the new canes. Usually I see new growth coming out from one of the three lowest bloom of a spray of forty or so blooms. Cut too low, and you'll wait longer for the new sprays to emerge. Don't cut at all, and the new spray will come sooner (as most of the hips don't set by open pollination.)

*Jeri

Ya'll, ignorant me, I've never actually seen a noisette in person. I know it is a moschata x china cross.

Re pruning, what I hear you describing is a spray of roses like in a polyantha like perle d'or. I remember a thread on pruning perle d'or last year wherein a number of people said that counter intuitively, the rose grows best when the rose is dead headed right below the blooms, rather than lower. Are you talking about the same thing?

If so, are you all saying that for all roses that grow in those sprays that the pruning or dh'ing that is done on them should be right behind the blooms?

Polyanthas are a china x multiflora cross, from what I understand.

Another ? : is moschata related to multiflora?

I hope this isn't a dumb ?.

It isn't ignorant. No one was born knowing this stuff. Noisettes rock. Find the ones that will be healthy in your climate and grow a couple. You'll be so pleased by the generosity of bloom. I planted "Roseville Noisette" where my husband can enjoy it, along his route to destinations in the yard. He always comments on the bloom. And he's one who thinks real roses are the things sold at Safeway.

I have Mary Washington as my token Noisette rose. It was the only one I saw that was listed as zone 6 hardy. It was also the only one I saw as listed as a bush rather than a large climber. This past year was the first year it started to take off. It survived the bad Easter 07 freeze and limped through the year. I don't have any good pictures of this rose yet, but it has rather delicate looking flowers in sizeable sprays. It can blackspot in my yard, but my sprays seem to keep it fairly healthy. It is different. I hope it will continue to do okay.

Not dumb at all.
Let's start with moschata v. multiflora.
Multiflora (the species) grows long canes and blooms come in sprays at the ends of those canes. Just as the blooms start, and are maybe half way through (three days), new canes emerge from way down on the canes and at a right angle to those canes and so many emerge that the bush is engulfed in a cloud of light green leaves. Those new canes are large and their green leaves often obscure the last half of the bloom period because they overgrow the older leaves. The next year, you'll see new blooms at the end of the then year old canes and a few breaks along the higher parts of the two year and three year old canes. Mostly the older canes work as a framework to support the newer canes. Now that's pure multiflora- by definition many blooms and wonderful fragrance, but fleeting both in blooms and fragrance.Anthers turn brown in one day, petals drop in two days.

Moschata blooms later in the spring and (wonderfully) blooms longer and with a different sweet fragrance. Moschata is less winter hardy (dang it) and the individual blooms last longer.

The roses are not that closely related as you look at them. I'm not sure where the genetic studies place them relative to all other roses: moschatas are from the middle east or thereabouts, multiflora is from eastern China and Japan (oversimplified).

Figuring out what to cut and when to cut it depends first on how the roses would grow, if we didn't interfere at all. The second factor is the growing condition of the particular rose. Summer droughts mean that I'm going to get new canes in spring and from summer on not so many. So any shaping I'm going to do needs to be done in winter and spring, before the replacement canes come into being. If I were from a warmer zone, I could count on getting fall canes that could survive winter and be productive; but I can't depend on fall canes making it (especially not this winter.)

In the 1800s, R. setigera got people's attention. So did Boursaults and Ayrshires. They had crosses that were big and opulent. Southerners had noisettes at the same time.

Then in the 1900s, the multifloras came in, again with opulent growth, but no repeat. Then came the small multifloras with blooms very like the big 'uns, but on much smaller bushes that (ta dah) repeated. (Oversimplified).

What part did the Chinas really play? I don't know, but I see traits that all but scream "I'm kin to Old Blush" in a lot of roses that aren't thought to be that close to the chinas. I think that Chinas may also have given some hardiness as well as some drought resistance to noisettes and from there into ????

I've taken some cold medicine, so this is rambling. Ask more questions, I'll try to help answer them when my head is clearer.

the rose grows best when the rose is dead headed right below the blooms, rather than lower.
Are you talking about the same thing?

*** Yes.

If so, are you all saying that for all roses that grow in those sprays that the pruning or dh'ing that is done on them should be right behind the blooms?

*** Oh, I wouldn't say "all."
But here, for the Chinas, and the Noisettes -- and even the Teas -- that works best for us.
It's what my grandmother did.
She'd just snap the blooms off. Worked fine!

With the clusters on Blush Noisette and its kin, I wait until the blooms start to dry.
Then, I just grab the dead blooms and pull, and they come right off.
New growth emerges from somewhere right below that point, with no trauma to the cane.

I bet I should take some photos of that process.

Jeri

Cass, thank you for the encouragement; it's always appreciated. I do plan to get some noisettes and watch how they grow.

Bustopher, I hope MW grows and continues to do well for you. Thanks for your comment. I've read that blush noisette is pretty hardy also, to 6b. I think that Krista in upstate NY grows it and it also seems to be successful for her. I think she's in 5; that always amazes me.

Ann, thanks for your answer. Any tidbits of rose knowledge that you spill out are always appreciated.

Jeri, thanks as always for the information.

Continuing on, is it accurate to say that the polyanthas, the chinas, floribundas, the hybrid musks, noisettes, bloom in those kinds of clusters?

Which of these types of cluster flowered roses put out growth in this same way, from below the sprays and so should be dh'd by snapping the blooms instead of cutting below on the stem?

I know people disagree about this. I've wondered if the southerners get so much more growth that the dh'ing and pruning methods are not really particularly critical because their climate is conducive to rampant growth. Ann seems to be saying this about hers, that the cold and her soil inhibits the growth on hers.

I don't want to be mixing apples and oranges here, but I've wondered if the dh'ing on all those clustered flowered roses should be done the same. It's purely hypothetical with me right now on the noisettes as I don't have any.

I don't dh my chinas usually. Valentine, my one floribunda, is so bloom happy it's hard to keep up with it and I cut below the sprays when I do dh. Maybe that's wrong. I have a number of hybrid musks. Should I snap the blooms on them as well rather than cutting?

Thanks for any help.

Gean, I don't generally deadhead Chinas either.
Polyanthas, I deadhead SOMETIMES, and generally by just snapping off blooms.
Teas, we "bend and snap," unless it is mid-summer, and I have a need to curtail growth.

And it is critical with at least one Floribunda: 'International Herald Tribune.'

Jeri

Without a doubt Blush Noisette. This rose will even perfume the air when it has 3-4 years maturity on it!

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Beautimous, Ronda. Thanks for posting your picture.

Well, I'm still going to order Old Grey, Blush Noisette and Mary Washington. But now there are a few more on a list maybe I'll get in a year or two. who needs a garage, anyway!!

Thank you.

who needs a garage, anyway!!

*** Now, there speaks a woman of great good sense.
:-)

Jeri

Keep Natchitoches Noisette in mind, so beautiful and healthy. Blooms are quite mutable, often several very different shades in the same flush. Easy to prune and shape, lightly with manual hedge trimmers work great. If I could figure out how to post a pic...

Greybird, we've just acquired NN -- so I'm looking forward to seeing what she does here.

Jeri

My Blush Noisette doesn't look anything like THAT! I wonder whether I got a bad/weak clone.

Robert

Greybird, Nach. N is definitely on the list. I am glad it does so well for you.

Robert, I'll let you know if mine turns into anything like Ronda's. I've seen pix of oldblush's in Miss. and it looks pretty much like Ronda's though...

My Blush Noisette doesn't look anything like THAT! I wonder whether I got a bad/weak clone. Robert

*** Robert, how old is the plant?
We have a budded Blush Noisette. Next to it is an own-root "Placerville White Noisette"/"Jacob Zeisz". Their sizes (about 4 ft x 4 ft) and habits are identical.
But both have been in the ground for a number of years.

Jeri

My blush noisette doesn't look like that either...in fact it looks like Natchitoches Noisette! The blooms are always pink, never white.

Rhonda....I would gladly pay for some cuttings from your Blush Noisette if you were willing. Lord have mercy.....that is a gorgeous bush!

Deb

Here's a pic of my Blush Noisette taken in November of last year. This is about the fourth flush of the summer and obviously isn't as full as the earlier ones. This one was growing on an obelisk that kept falling over so I had to prune it back pretty hard and get inside to cut the obelisk out. It never skipped a beat.
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Another great shrub type noisette is Fellemberg, or at least in my opinion. Its growth pattern is similar to BN but a little more vigorous. No fragrance that I can sense but still a wonderful rose that I wouldn't be without.
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Yet another I'm looking forward to maturing is Bouganville. Mine was but a band that got put in the ground last spring, love the blooms.
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That bottom shot is Bougainville? I LIKE that!

Jeri

Ummm, My Bouganville has much tighter, more tight-rosette like blooms. Approaching pom-pom in their tightness.

Jeri, the blooms are many but pretty small. Less than 2 inches.

Ann, you don't suppose there are more than one Bouganville do you? I got this one from Vintage. I know there are at least three different roses in my area that are "supposed" to be Champneys Pink Cluster, all very different.

Less than 2-in is fine, if they're in reasonable clusters.

I know there are a jillion versions of Blush Noisette, so why not different versions of Champneys?
The one I saw at the Huntington, IIRC, grew as a climber.

My personal OB is only rarely colored pink.
It seems, though, to match the accepted clones I've seen, so I'll accept it as that until I learn differently.
(I'm not emotionally wedded to it.)
I don't have Champneys, or anything purporting to be Champneys.

Someone ought to do a booklet, illustrating all of the KNOWN Blush Noisette sports.

Jeri

shrub Noisettes I have grown, and known.

My favorites that I've grown:
'Nastarana' mine is the short version from Vintage which matures at 4 to 5' tall and blooms as constantly as a China class rose. Its lovely fragrance wafts several feet from the bush when in full bloom. I live near the Northern California coast, where conditions are ideal for p.m. and I must spray Nastarana with Cornell once a season, which is well worth the effort.
'Catos Cluster' light pink, poised petals (not blousey) Very healthy, very beautiful foliage, it could be grown as a folige plant if it was not a rose.
'La Nymph' a Noisette-Bourbon which has a growth habit and smooth leaves like unto a NOisette, but the small rounded flowers have more of a Bourbon style of shape. Very Lovely. This can be grown as a 5 to 6' foot tall shrub, or a climber.
'Princess de Nassau' this is a wonderful rose that I've grown from cuttings, it is more white, with a golden-orange boss. The canes can be quite thick and spreading, needs 8 feet width by 5 to 6 feet tall.
Least favorite NOisette: Blush NOisette' to my eyes there are far better pink Noisettes. My apologies to its' fans.
Noisettes I've studied to see if their bloom, foliage and growth habit are worthy to bump another rose out of my garden.
The Noisette I most crave-'St. Leonards' If I could only grow one white shrub NOisette, it would be this one. Very elegant blooms, healthy foliage. a marvelous plant and a large one, c. 8 feet in all directions, but has been trained against a stone wall to be 7' tall and wide, by c. 4 feet in depth.
Noisettes
'Secret Garden Noisette' very bright pink edging, too vivid for my eyes, and intensely scented, after I ruffled a few petals, the scent lingered on my fingertips for several hours, like perfume.
'Champneys Pink Cluster' a very special Noisette, creamy centers but pink overall. Each rose blossom has a special poise, something about them is very special. Good rebloom in Oakland, Ca, where it is grown near R. moschata.
Lux.
'Caroline Marniesse' has cherry like rosebuds which add a lovely deepr pink color, as the roses around them open.

Lux.

Champneys in the early 1800s was a big rose, FWIW.
My Bouganville was probably from RU.

Pinkest noisette I grow: from RU it's either Chester No. 1 or Chester No. 2 (one is white, the other pink and I'm not sure which is which) But the pink one is always a refined pink.

What bothers me is that in the mid 1800s there were a lot more choices of colors among the noisettes. If they are now lost, that's sad. But that doesn't mean that the crosses shouldn't be remade so we can have red and purple noisettes again.

And someone, so I note, is considering such crosses.
Good work.

Jeri

That would be a gorgeous sight to see red and purple noisettes! I would love that.

Deb

Jeri,

My plant is ownroot and about 3-4 years old. It is in an absolutely prime location for soil, sun, and supplemental water. But, it does not want to take off. I am comparing it to Tutta's Pink and a couple other shrub type Noisettes that I've got that are doing their thing.

Robert