Things really came to a head tonight when a local nursery sent out its 2014 Rose List for the spring, and I read through the 'Antique Roses' section. I found an endless listing of Hybrid Perpetuals that are guaranteed to be disease-ridden by next fall and won't be useful for much other than holding a bloom. Hybrid Perpetuals! In our disease pressure?! Why?! Who in their right mind would order such plants?! And what was more disappointing was the fact that the really good Teas and Chinas were almost non-existant. Mme. Antoine Rebe? Had they seen the thing at the EK Gardens? It was a giant bush with almost no blooms! Then I realized that the "Antique" roses list had modern shrubs and HTs in the category as well. 'Polonais' was introduced in 1984. Hardly antique. Lavender Lassie was most certainly not introduced before 'La Reine' so it hardly qualifies as antique. And why on Earth is 'Maggie' listed as a shrub, when it should be listed as a Bourbon?!

Irresponsible! Completely irresponsible! I am banging my head on my desk as I imagine the general, unknowing public showing off their 'Polonaise' rose to their neighbors saying, "Oh yes, and it's an antique too!'

Blasphemy!

Then there was the episode when I was on my way to Austin, Tx for the weekend and I called ahead to several nurseries to ask if they carried OGR. I called one nursery and they told me they did carry them! Great! So I asked if they had any Teas, Chinas, or Noisettes. I just about ran the car off the road when the man on the phone replied, "Oh I'm not sure, none of them are labelled. But it sounds like you know what you're talking about so I'm sure you could identify them when you come out!"

So against all instinct, I show up to this nursery, round the corner to the Antique roses section, and find 4 long wooden benches with roses toppled everywhere. There were roses on the ground, upside down, laying on their side with half their dirt fallen out, all completely unmarked and unsorted.

I even had a family run nursery in my hometown tell me that, 'Yes they had tried antique roses before, but they were so disease-ridden and poor that they decided to never try them again.'

Ma'am, I'm not sure what antique roses you had but me and my 27 thriving, completely clean, cold hardy, potted antique roses must disagree with you.

What has this world come to?! If one is going to run a nursery, it should be done responsibly so that the customers know exactly what they are buying and what to expect from it. And how hard is it to take the time to do a little research about the product you are going to offer? I mean my god, this is your livelihood! And now, because of sub-par rose cultivars you offer, the notion that roses are finicky, difficult, plants will continue to perpetuate because someone was too lazy and inefficient to take a minute to choose plants that would work well here.

/endrant

Josh

Note: Thank heavens for nurseries like Angel Gardens and Long Ago Roses, who practice responsible rose commerce.

We actually have really high humidity, especially during the summer. I would definitely check out:

Souv D'Elise Vardon (Long Ago)
Souv. De Francois Goulain
Cramoisi Supeurieur (ARE - love this one)
Louis Phillipe
Lamarque
Souv. Mme. Leonie de Viennot
Champney's Pink Cluster
Pink Pet
Crepuscule
Milkmaid (clean even as a young band)
Frederic II de Prusse (clean even as a young band)

Just for starters! Your summers may be slightly milder than ours, and your winters a smidge colder. I can't definitely say how these will perform for you, but they've been excellent for me!

Josh

Josh

The wife was there and I asked her if they were going to get either of the two trees in, she said "Oh Noooo not those! I only order the right trees for our climate" she went on and on... and then told me what cherry she was getting in. Well it is NOT one that will ever produce in our area because it needs over 2x the chill hours.

I am going to write off the way she replied and what she ordered as she just has too much to deal with. I will go buy something else this summer and get the right trees else where

Sometimes people try and just don't have enough knowledge or time to learn. Some gentle hints might help

I know it is far, but you would have a field day at The Antique Rose Emporium.
Everything is labeled. The displays are well maintained.

besides that if what the nurseries do get doesn't sell they won't get it again because it didn't make them any money. A lot of my local nurseries have quit carrying roses of any kind, including Knock Outs, because they don't sell well and they end up just dumping them at the end of the season. It's sad but roses are getting harder and harder to find everywhere.

Most nurseries don't have antiques and wouldn't know one if they saw it.

When I have seen antiques, they were older plants long suffering. I don't think the larger ones like being potted very long and even HTs look sad by the second year unsold in a 5 gallon pot. It takes a person who really loves roses to provide the care and most nurseries don't have the time or interest.

Its sad most people don't know about OGRs and how wonderful they are, but that's just the way it is. I love to order roses [just take a look at my pot ghetto!] and feel lucky to find them at so many wonderful nurseries that ship. Its a shame places like Lowes and Home Depot don't have some to offer. Chamblees is selling a lot of the Kordes landscape roses because that is what people want - lots of bloom, no care. Not sure how I feel about those - smaller blooms, many are thorny. I am trying Flameco Rosita - purchased last spring at a big grocery store chain - but in my mind, they cant compete with a big bloom of Mrs.
BR Cant or others.....

Good nurseries with unusual, interesting plants are hard to find due to the economy. Josh, if you are in the Tyler area, by all means go by Blue Moon Gardens - they have a gorgeous nursery [they have a website] and I can find lots of unusual things there, however in that area, Chamblees remains the best place to buy roses. I am chomping the bit to start going - have already been to Blue Moon.

There are a few really good nurseries around - you just have to find them. I am fortunate to be in driving distance of several. Am going to New Summerfield to the nurseries there on Saturday, want some gallon pots of bridal wreath for $3!
Judith

Ingrid

Ingrid, love the "dumbing down" comment; true true true!

Jackie

I emailed the nursery that released the rose list to express my distress, and they emailed me back. As suspected, they stock what sells. And as opposed as I am to using toxic chemicals to maintain roses, the GM said that there were customers who were willing to use fungicides.

He did say they were considering splitting the Pioneer roses off from the Antiques and making them their own category. He said the reason Gold Blush and Polonaise were in the Antique category because they were from the Antique Rose Emporium and their growth habits resemble OGR. Meh, to each their own I suppose. I may propagate a few of the more unusual Teas I have and gift them to a couple nurseries around here in an attempt to pique interest.

Josh

If you ever find yourself in Austin, go to Bartok Springs Nursery! If I lived closer I would work there just so I could spend my free time there.

Josh

:-)

~Christopher

I started growing roses years ago, when introduced to OGRs by a friend. Quickly found that the ones I were most attracted to were ones that were not available on site anywhere in our area except at one small nursery, Sherando Roses, about 2 hours from here ... shopped there at least twice a year and my love of roses was fueled by my conversations with Randy, the owner. He was generous with his experience and I valued his opinions, which helped shape my gardens in those early years.

When Randy retired and Sherando closed, friends and I were lamenting the loss of the one place where we could gather to enjoy, discuss, and buy our roses. (We were ordering online from the nurseries we all know, but nothing compared to the experience of getting our roses in person.) It was then that I decided to turn my garden and my love of OGRs into a nursery, to try to pass along and nurture the fire that Randy lit in me and in so many others.

The reality of the rose business hit me pretty hard shortly after I opened. To put it bluntly, the average gardener does not want an old garden rose, especially one that gets big (and many people think that 'big' is anything over 4' tall), blooms only once per season (see ya, all those beautiful Gallicas, Ramblers, Albas, and so many others that are gorgeous in my hot, humid central Virginia garden) When the roses in the garden were in bloom, it was easier to introduce customers to ones that they were unfamiliar and convince them to try something that they had never heard of before. I fondly remember the year that I sold out of 'The Bishop', a wonderful Hybrid China, in one day because it was blooming and the color and fragrance and form are superb. All of the people who bought it that day left here with a new appreciation for a once-blooming rose. This is not what usually happens. For the most part, I had lots of people coming to look for New Dawn, Buff Beauty, various exhibition-style Hybrid Tea roses that I don't grow, anything by David Austin (because they knew that he produced the English roses), and anything orange, red, or yellow.

When I opened my 'doors' that first year, I had what most of us here would consider a balanced assortment of a variety of good roses from most of the OGR classes. The popular ones that people had heard of sold quickly, the unfamiliar ones languished. (By popular, I mean roses with familiar names ... not necessarily roses that people knew in person.) During the years that followed, I propagated fewer roses that I knew would be challenging to sell that season, in favor of having more stock of the popular ones on hand. I convinced myself that I could do this (in conflict with my original mission to preserve and to distribute rare and worthy roses), because the meager $$ from the sale of the popular ones allowed me to buy more rare roses to add to my own gardens. This small positive aspect of the way my business was growing wasn't enough in the long run to keep me going.

In 2012, I closed the retail portion of my nursery, and donated the remaining 80 roses in inventory to Stephen Scanniello's projects in NY. Stephen's Subaru that day was full of wonderful roses that most of us here know and love. I was happy to see them go to such a worthy project, but sad that I had failed to convince the public that old roses were something that they should get to know better.

A general retail nursery, whether it is a brick-and-mortar store in your examples or a mail-order business, has to cater to its customers in order to survive. The average nursery customer does not go there to buy roses, and the average nursery owner/employee does not know how to choose or care for roses. (Speaking of care, there are many different levels of care that gardeners are willing to subscribe to in their rose gardens. Me? I have no problem spraying fungicide on my rare blackspot-prone roses that need it. That's what it takes to grow these here, and I know this and accept it. Other roses, like my ramblers, teas, most of the Chinas and Polyanthas, don't need fungicide and they don't get it. No type of Insecticide is used in my gardens.)

This is a long-winded way to say that it is best to put ourselves in someone else's place before we criticize. Roses are a tough item to sell in the best of times at most nurseries ... even nurseries that specialize in them have a difficult time developing their customer base and logging enough sales to keep afloat.

I hope I haven't offended anyone.
Connie

Agree with you on the frustration of seeking good nurseries who offer a good selection of old garden roses. I'm just thankful that we have several in-state that deliver to area nurseries. I hope you discover the local ones that offer a good selection. Don't give up looking in all sorts of places. I found my Mrs Dudley Cross at Calloways.

Agree with you totally about nurseries not taking good care of their stock. You'd think they would, seeing that the plants are their investment. Try to put your outrage to rest and just say, oh well, maybe some workers called in sick and they're very shorthanded today. Then focus on the wonderful roses you have that I've heard you talk about. But if you can't, I don't mind your rant. Sometimes it's good to let it all out with people who understand. Lou

I fear (know) that Kim is right. Most buyers are looking for continuous bloom on plants that reach full maturity quickly and never outgrow their designated spaces on small lots. Continuous bloom can be wonderful, but so can the philosophical shift that accompanies an everchanging garden. Change in my garden scaffolds my ability to cope with change in the larger scope of my life. I rehearse the movement between seasons, I value the fruit that is offered after the flowers have fallen, I appreciate the underlying structure that is the framework of visible beauty and my vision of what is good and exquisite expands. It is a magical moment when I notice the lacey delicacy of La Ville's sepals and the delicious fragrance offered up on her blooms. When I was a designer, I suppose I tried to sell a philosophical perspective along with my designs. It was a hard sell but one close to my soul. Sometimes a client began to know the garden as something alive, a companion of sorts. Too often, the garden was treated as an order of showroom furniture, a livingroom suite conveniently prearranged and nearly instantanious in its evolution. Argh!

Josh, did you mention medical school in your future? Or perhaps botany? Josh's Antique Rose Display Garden and Nursery? :-)

Carol

Hear, hear! I touched on this in another thread when I was asked, since I'm gardening in a very long rose season climate, why I bother with once bloomers. Part of my response was exactly this. I value seasonal change in the garden, I cherish longing for that spring or summer flush and, to be honest, at least sometimes, I find continous blooming plants just a little bit boring. After looking at the same flowers for 9 or 10 months one is bound to get that feeling. I'm often hasty in my winter rose pruning just in order to force this change in my garden...

As we speak, my young winter magnolias are blooming and what a spectacle that is. A spectacle I can enjoy only for 2-3 weeks max (if the flowers are not spoiled by the weather) but I would never contemplate substituting these plants for everblooming ones. This spectacle being rare just makes it so much more valuable to me.
Nik