This rose should not be so aggressive that it reaches its long thorny canes through the fence and starts eating nearby cars (Phyllis Bide).

It must not fail to rebloom (Guinee).

It must grow a little higher than two feet off the ground (Cl Crimson Glory, two different attempts).

Now Cl Crimson Glory is a nice little thing, so I'll move it to a nice little spot where it can busy itself happily. Perhaps one day, if it is very good and eats all its alfalfa, it will grow up to be three feet tall.

Now I am looking for a serious replacement. Given my two recent trends (one towards white roses and one towards tea roses), I have considered planting my gallon White Maman Cochet there. The pictures of it really look more pink than white, though. Still, it is a possibility. I'm also considering the California Lamarque, not the Thomasville one. Much whiter. Is it reliably mildew resistant in the SFBay Area? There is the possibility that both of these teas might get wider than I have space for. Or I could plant one of the HTs I recenlty ordered, Pope John Paul II, but I'm not sure it would be big enough. It will be on fortuniana rootstock. Besides size, the thing I might not like is its very modern appearance for a rose planted in a part of the garden that is all old and reproduction roses. That can be jarring to my eye.

Any ideas? The ideal rose would repeat frequently, be absolutely disease free in my climate, be fragrant, grow about 6-7 feet tall and be about 4-5 feet wide and have a romantic old-fashioned appearance (reproduction is fine). A vase shape would be a bonus, and so would the color white, though neither is an absolute requirement.

>>sigh<< No wonder people plant conifers when they want something of a certain size and shape!

Rosefolly

I'm going to put three old Chinas up by the street, because they are tough as nails, and bloom a lot (and are very clean here):
"Elisabeth's China" "White Christmas" ([presumed 'Ducher') and "Magnolia Cemetery Rose" -- So, two reds, flanking a white. All are disease-free for me here in Camarillo, and bloom right through the year.

Inside the gate we're removing a 'Lady Ann Kidwell' that was great until the gophers got her roots. She's never quite recovered.
The replacement will probably be 'Lady Roberts,' for good bloom and disease-resistance. I don't find her terribly prickly. Also in that gate area are 'Mme. Lombard' and'Prospero' -- and 'Devoniensis' is going there.

Jeri

I had a grafted Golden Celebration at the front entrance-way to my old house. It flowered continually (except late winter and early spring - mostly due to the gardening service guys who insisted on pruning it down in January). All it seemed to want to pump out the flowers were compost applications every few months and regular, deep watering - I couldn't skimp on these if I wanted the non-stop flowers

Looking at it from the street the rose wasn't arresting but up-close it was just gorgeous. Very few people who walked up to the front door failed to comment on it.

Individual blooms didn't last long but there were so many this didn't matter. The carpet of yellow petals at the foot of the rose added to the charm, in my mind. The rose was completely shaded from the afternoon sun.

And, completely disease-free for me. No PM at all. Some blackspot in the year before I started its water overdose.

I am right on the Bay in the Peninsula (Sunset zone 17) and my summers are likely much cooler than yours. For me, Golden Celebration remained a 5 feet by 4 feet arching shrub. Perhaps Golden Celebration would climb where you are? I think Mashamcl is in San Jose and grows the rose as a climber.

Cheers,
Jo

Another one that might fit the bill is Cl. Clotilde Soupert. I have the bush version, and she is superb here. Fragrant, floriforous, and pretty much thornless. Disease free. She doesn't ball here either. The climber could be stunning.

What about Kim's White Renae Seedling? It looks lovely and quite old fashioned in the one picture of it on HMF. Doesn't appear to get to be huge and is lacking in thorns.

I was surprised to read about how difficult Cl. Crimson Glory has been for you as mine is up above roof level. She just bloomed her fool head off in December too. I can't remember how many years (yep, years!) it has been since I fed her anything. She's in partial shade in a big redwood pot (probably rooted out the bottom by now) up against the house and partially concealed by a huge Sago Palm. Our conditions must be very different.

Melissa

Melissa

Clotilde Soupert might be a good choice. In summer here she's basically white. I'm sure with time she could get that tall if you let her. I'm keeping mine about 4x4. She's a bloom machine with great foliage. Balling isn't much of a problem here - unless we have a downpour at just the wrong time, but she repeats quickly. Black spot is my dread, and she doesn't get it.

Sherry

Rosefolly

My neighbor prunes his Sombreuil to be a free-standing bush. It's very beautiful that way. Not really an old rose but certainly gives that impression.

We really love Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria in the cemetery. It would stay the size that you want, and is a very early HT so it doesn't look jarringly modern. Our rose is grafted onto Pink Cloud so I don't know how an own-root grows. Another wonderful white old HT is Mme Jules Bouchet.

Our Ducher gets mildew and really isn't a very nice plant. I'd like to love it, but I don't.

If you could deal with bright red, Bengal Fire would bloom its head off and be spectacular. I think you could keep it to size. Not many prickles, either.
Anita

I recently planted a Cl Devoniensis on the back fence. It ought to be still easy to move. How about it? Healthy? Appropriately sized?

Have you thought about a Poly-Tea?
White Cecile Brunner is a lovely thing -- a warm white, rather than the usual pink. And of course there are Perle d'Or, and the original Mlle. Cecile Brunner.

Jeri

Ingrid

I feel your pain about Cl Crimson Glory, and how none of the cuttings I gave you from mine ever survived. I have another friend who wants one, so sometime in the next week my plan is to start 5 cuttings in one gallon bags on my back porch (underneath a small acquarium tank so that the cats can't get at them). This way takes 4-6 months for them to root, but I consistently get about 60% success, as opposed to 0% with the "burrito" method I tried twice. Anyway, presuming this works again, you are welcome to a rooted plant when I get one - I will send you an email when they get that far! My parent Cl Crimson Glory is still going strong, and is at least 12 feet high.

Jackie

Ingrid, I'm sorry to say that Belinda's Dream was a dog here. Mildewed profoundly. And I had six of them. Sigh.

Clusters are okay, but I think I'll looking for something with individual blooms that are bigger than those of most polyanthas. You know, a statement rose.

The panel the planting space sits in front of (a bit off-center) is 6 feet high and 8 feet wide. I actually just had another thought. I also have Le Pactole in a gallon, very near White Maman Cochet in my pot ghetto where. It is a kind of ivory cream in its pictures, and no doubt would bleach to white in the full sun there. When I look at the Vintage Gardens line drawings, I get the idea that it would not be quite so large as the Cochet clan.

Any thoughts on Le Pactole for this spot? Or is it still too big.

Rosefolly

P. S. That pathetic little rose at the bottom is my second Cl Crimson Glory. I haven't moved it yet.

Le Pactole is a crown of glory -- but it is HUGE!

Jeri

Maybe the conifer after all. Sigh.

Rosefolly

Annabeth

I just realized that I have not answered all the many suggestions I received, and I do apologize. I've read them all carefully and thank you for each and every one. Some of them I already grow elsewhere, and others, while lovely, just did not fit the vision in my imagination. In the meanwhile, I've had a couple other ideas and I'd like to get feedback on them.

The first is a small(?) musk rose called Reverend Seidel. Does anyone grow it? It is said to be highly fragrant and nearly continuous bloom, but I have no idea just how big it would be. There is also the Temple Musk. Does it get huge? I grow Rosa moschata elsewhere in my garden and love it (despite the fact that it is a single and I'm not crazy about singles), but it would be way, way too big for this spot.

If I cannot find a suitable white rose -- and I did have my heart set on white -- I am considering Annie Laurie McDowell. It is fragrant, looks pretty, blooms continuously and the thornlessness would be an advantage right by the entryway. But again, size. Some of the pictures I'm looking at show a rose that seems to be about twelve feet wide. That would be far too big. Can it be controlled without a constant battle?

Ingrid

I had to rework the area by my front door to get a decent space. Then the rose did better.

Any way you can cut a little concrete to give the rose a bigger area of soil? That's a lot of concrete.

If color wasn't a consideration, I'd plant Felicia + a non rampant honeysuckle together there. Spring roses, summer honeysuckle and then fall roses again plus a few here and there.

PS I have missed you, sweet Rosefolly, my precious California friend.

Gloire de Dijon
BY D. H. (DAVID HERBERT) LAWRENCE
When she rises in the morning
I linger to watch her;
She spreads the bath-cloth underneath the window
And the sunbeams catch her
Glistening white on the shoulders,
While down her sides the mellow
Golden shadow glows as
She stoops to the sponge, and her swung breasts
Sway like full-blown yellow
Gloire de Dijon roses.

She drips herself with water, and her shoulders
Glisten as silver, they crumple up
Like wet and falling roses, and I listen
For the sluicing of their rain-dishevelled petals.
In the window full of sunlight
Concentrates her golden shadow
Fold on fold, until it glows as
Mellow as the glory roses.

Florence

Zeffy and everyone who has been so kind with your suggestions, I think I will just let this stew in the back of my mind for a while. I've had many excellent suggestions. I have a feeling that it will become clear to me in time what will work.

Thanks to each and everyone.

Rosefolly

Another thought are some of the octopus Austins, which would readily climb a short fence like that and rebloom profusely. Teasing Georgia I grow as a large bush but would work in a spot like that. The Generous Gardener is another big Austin. There is a new Austin called the Wedgwood Rose Climbing which I don't grow but I'd love to hear from anyone who has grown it -- it looks so sumptous in the pics. :-)

Good luck!

I'd be thinking about Darla's Enigma or Secret Garden Musk Climber for that spot.

I do grow Rev. Seidel and he tolerates acidic red clay much better than most (which may mean he's not right for a situation with that much cement in the vicinity.)

A slight digression: Once upon a rose time, a rose grower left the commune over in Ruskin, Tennessee, and kept on hybridizing roses. He saw a need for roses to greet people and he introduced a line of roses to grace fence gates and front doors. He moved to Riverside California, briefly, and lost half of this plants to a flood there and then moved back east.

Would any of his introductions succeed for you in California? He was Dr. W. van Fleet.

Calfornia 'Lamarque' is one of my cleanest roses, even now in Febraury with last years foliage on it it shows no sign of any disease.
Because it is a large climber, I would suggest giving it more space to climb, by putting an arbor over the pathway to allow more vertical height.

These two roses failed in my garden and at Morcom park.
'Clothilde Soupert' gets moderate p.m. here, and balls badly in spring and autumn, during rainy weeks.
my 'Ducher; defoliated entirely from powdery mildew and hardly ever produced a bloom, not a rose for a cool coastal area.

Roses that I recommend for your plot;
I've grown the bush form of white 'Maman Cochet; as a self supporting bush kept to c. 5 feet tall or under for the last 7 years. It is a very beautiful Old Garden Tea.

'Westside Road Cream Tea' is one of the smaller sized Old Garden Tea rosebushes, that matures here, at a size of c. 4 and 1/2 feet tall by just as wide. However, I'd want, if it were my place, a larger plant as it's such a great focal point.

To fill a space such as yours, as fully as possible with fragrant pink roses, I would peg a Hybrid Perpetual.
These are the most disease resistant H.P.s grown at Morcom park and in my own no spray garden:

;'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' disease resistant, fragrant, easy to peg, which increased bloom production per bloom cycle, wonderful crimson-purple plum hue showing some stamens. a heartbreaker of a rose. Needs a little shade to keep from burning where I live.

the rest of these H.P.s are pink and disease resistant in our no spray gardens:
Plus all reliably bloom in spring, summer and autumn in the east bay area of San francisco Bay

'Ullrich Brunner fils' I'd rate this as ff. out of 5.
'Glendora' syn 'Portland from Glendora' the most disease resistant H.P. I've ever grown, and it is very very fragrant and a pleasant hue of pink. It is valentines day and my Glendora already has rosebuds upon it. FFF of damask rose.

'Grandmothers Hat' early bloom in spring, one of the first two of our H.P.s to bloom in spring with the Tea class roses, today it already is setting rosebuds with Glendora' on valentines day, I like Grandmothers Hat' grown as a 5 and 1/2 foot rosebush because it re-blooms more rapidly. I plan to grow a row of them bordering my fragrance garden, where jasmine and honeysuckle bloom in summer with the pink roses, and daphne odorata and narcissus bloom in winter.

If you must have a fragrant white rose 'Prosperity' is very fragrant but it was borderline for health in my no-spray garden , showing more blackspot than I am comfortable with though it never defoliated from that disease.

Let us know what rose you choose, please

Luxrosa

Maria

I cannot remember when I have agonized so much over a rose decision. I certainly put too much pressure on this one. I have read this thread over and over again. So many of the excellent suggestions are already growing elsewhere in my garden -- well over half of them, I think -- so I can confirm that your tastes are similar to mine! Two different nights this week I lay awake for hours, mulling the choices. That is so silly. This is supposed to be fun, not torture.

So I made a decision. I have ordered Annie Laurie McDowell. It will be delivered in May. I very nearly went with bush-form White Maman Cochet after all, but I kept thinking of my regret if it outgrew the spot. It deserves better than that from me.

There, done and done!

Thanks to you all.

Rosefolly

Florence