I realize photos can change colors, but in my opinion, this rose is neither LP nor CS. It's not double enough, doesn't have enough white in the middle, and just is the wrong form. Looks like a very nice rose though.

Malcolm

I guess I agree with Malcolm. My Cramoisi Superieur had so many petals that it balled consistently - year around, climber and bush. LP also has more petals and is pinker in the center, too. I'm surprised Malcolm doesn't know what it is. Got any more pics?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Sherry, I found another photo of this rose. This is so disappointing, I now have 3 roses that I do not know the name of. If this isn't LP or CS, I have no idea what it could possibly be.The first photo didn't show the white streaks it normally has, so maybe the last picture is a better representation of this rose.
Also, thank you Malcolm for your most respected opinion.

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Here are two images of blooms on my White Pearl In Red Dragon's Mouth:

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/JeriJennings/?action=view&current=WPIRDM3-12.jpg

and

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/JeriJennings/?action=view&current=WPIRDM12-25.jpg

In my experience, blooms of WPIRDM are a lighter, warmer shade of red, by comparison to, for instance, Louis Phillipe or Cramoisi Superieur. And oif course, it has fewer petals.
I'll post some images for comparison.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful:

The fact that the Florida vendor labeled the rose as a 'Cracker Rose' means that she/he has NO idea what the rose actually is, and probably was selling (or had sold) various varieties under that name.

I remembered a discussion on Florida Crackers that was posted here (or so I thought) several years ago. I finally found it on the Florida Gardening Forum (linked below).

Seems as tho a Florida Cracker Rose is ANY rose that performs well in Florida.

Here is a link that might be useful: Florida Cracker Rose

Windeaux, some do use the name "cracker" rose that way. But the name is also at least informally reserved specifically for 'Louis Philippe' which is by far the rose most commonly called by that nickname. But in this case I agree, it was a red China that the vendor didn't know the exact identity of.

claferg, your rose looks an awful like "Fellemberg", another china. If it is, it should eventually get quite large, maybe 6 to 8 feet tall depending on pruning. Beales says that this rose has been listed by some as a noisette, but it seems more like a china to me. According to Beales, if it is Fellemberg, it should be more thorny than most other chinas. A good rose nevertheless, so enjoy it whatever it is. I have myself often wondered about the difference between Cramoisi and Louis Philippe. It seems they are so close that they may have been confused in commerce. I think my Cramoisi is maybe Cramoisi climber that I have grown as a large shrub. According to Beales L.P. should be darker red to purple as compared to cramoisi and have some petals white at the margins with slight fragrance, whereas cramoisi is streaked with white and not as dark red. Both are more double than yours appears from the photo. The shrub china I have that I believe is Cramoisi has a definite globular shape to the blooms before fully opening. I detect only slight fragrance from my "cramoisi" which is in agreement with Beales, but others say if is fairly fragrant. Fragrance however is in the nose of the sniffer. It seems clear that there are only small differences between several red chinas and it might be necessary to have them growing side by side to really make distinctions.

Newtie, I appreciate your input on this mystery rose, however I don't think it is Fellenberg. According to HMF this is a dark pink rose. Mine is definately red, no pink about it. Also I have had this rose for about 3 years now and it is maybe 3 ft. tall and not very thorny at all. It does have a globular shape but the leaf shape seems different. Mine also has a great fragrance but I know that fragrance is neither here nor there according to who is doing the smelling.
I'm kind of leaning toward White pearl in red dragons mouth, very similar in color and form.
Thanks again :)

Realize that it may be "none of the above." There are many nameless red Chinas "out there," apparently seedlings. They all look similar, but there are subtle differences.

claferg, If you should have a chance to look at Peter Beales nice book, "Classic Roses", there is a picture of Fellemberg on page 357, which he describes as cerise to crimson. It was that picture that seemed to match yours. But of course it is so very difficult to identify one rose from a group of very similar ones by just a photo of the bloom. And too, there are those problems with reproducing color accurately. I think of cerise as being a dark reddish pink and crimson as a medium dark red as opposed to a brighter red which I think of as scarlet, but these are such ambiguous color terms. Anyway, that photo in Beales book is why I thought your rose might possibly be Fellemberg. Then when I look at the photo in HMF I see a rose that is a pinkish red and quite thorny, but the HMF description contradicts the HMF photo by saying it is almost thornless! Malcolm's suggestion that it may be a red china seedling seems very possible. Anyway enjoy your nice rose and sorry I wasn't of much help.

Thank you so much for all your thoughts newtie, I guess this rose will forever be my mystery. It is ok though, it is a lovely little rose no matter what it's name is, I just have been thinking all this time that it was LP and now I will have to get a real LP since I have heard such great things about this rose. The pictures above are not all that great anyway, but I don't have any better ones to offer right now since I pruned this rose a few weeks ago and it is currently sans flowers. I appreciate your efforts though, and thanks again.

I have always thought my camera did 'reds' in a very accurate way

Altissimo for example:

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So....here is my Fellenberg (much pinker than what you have there I think):

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One last thought. I have a rose named Old Gay Hill. It has the white markings you have. It may have too few petals. One thing about this rose that would make a distinction is that the foliage on Old Gay Hill is very blue. Not rich green as most roses. (sorry, this is the best picture I have):

{{gwi:233394}}

Whatever your mystery rose is....it is lovely!

Such lovely roses Ronda,and the puppy is too cute as well.
That Fellenberg is really pink, mine looks nothing like that rose, but I wish it did. The flowers on Fellenberg look much larger than my rose. I think you are right about Old Gay Hill, it doesn't have as many petals as mine and my flowers are kind of globular. Mine is just starting to put flowers back on after pruning, so possibly I can post a better picture soon. I thank you for your thoughts and lovely photos.

I hate to bring this thread up again, but I was just browsing through some roses on HMF and I saw a rose that looked similar to my rose. The rose was Slater's Crimson China. Does anyone have this rose? If so, could this be the rose that I have? TIA

Claferg -- The roses I've seen most-reliably-identified as Slaters Crimson China have been singles.

Large, luxurious, 5-petalled, deep-red blooms with stamens richly-laden with golden pollen.

Here, we grow two roses bought under other study-names, but identified as SCR, and they do match each other.

Then, we have "Elisabeth's China," and "Magnolia Cemetery China," as well as 'Louis Philippe' and 'Cramoisi Superieur.' I think there are differences all-round ... but then, I'm happy to let them remain foundlings.

It is as Malcolm says -- many of them just cannot be neatly slotted into a historic identity.
When dealing with this sort of roses, un-noted sports and selfed-seedings just happen too easily.

Or, as Bob Martin once noted: "Sometimes, roses happen."

Jeri

There is only one solution, you'll have to give it a name. ________'s China Red.
My local orchid hybridizer sells the right to name their new hybrids. Immortality for not much cost. :-)

Denise

Thank you so much for your input. I am really not obsessing over this,but it would be nice to know for sure, since I propagate roses and give them away to friends.It would be nice to give them the true name for a rose, but in this case that may never be possible and I will just have to tell them this. I guess I'll just call it my surprise China :) Thanks again for all the help.