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Devoniensis bush form
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Posted by jerome z9 CA (My Page) on Fri, Feb 5, 10 at 22:45
| I read something very interesting on HelpMeFind from a man in Australia who grows Devoniensis. The writer said for him the bush did not grow much over 3 feet for the first 8 years, and after that it took off and became a large bush with a much more assertive growth pattern.
This consoled me a lot. While Devoniensis here in Orange County never did terribly (and frankly was pretty generous with flowers for such a puny thing) it never grew much either. I have never gone out there with a measuring rod, but I'd say the three of them are probably under 3' tall.
I was about to give up on them each year (they were planted in 2006, I think) - but then they'd flower...and I couldn't. So I am so glad I found that wise man's entry and I look forward to 2014!
Jerome |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| If one had the fortitude to do it, I bet one could get better growth by pinching off all of the blooms. But I STILL think it likes some heat -- which you have, and I lack. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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Oh dear. I have mine planted in the front of the border and have been excited to have a small Tea. I love the blooms and I really like that it is healthy AND small.
Did I mention those beautiful, incredibly fragrant blooms? Maybe by the time she decides to have her adolescent growth spurt, I will have been able to move to my dream house with the dream yard. I guess if she gets huge, I'll just have to move her, or take out something else so she can have that place. Thanks for the warning, Jerome. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| This is true. Gregg of Vintage showed me his that is eighteen years old and just attaining a nice size. For some reason mine is a puzzle. It grew quickly to where it's at now 5 ft. Perhaps it's a good clone. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Cl Devoniensis is a rose that I've admired for years, but knew I couldn't accommodate it in my garden. I finally planted the bush form 5 or six years ago. It's healthy, but like the reports above, NOT a robust grower. I remember this rose being discussed in a garden lecture I attended several years ago. The presenter stated that in the propagation of the bush form he felt it was important to take cuttings from old, mature specimens. At the time, I totally discounted the remark. Now I wish I had quizzed him on it further. Is it even remotely possible that the age of a parent plant could determine the growth rate of cuttings? Still seems unlikely to me. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| I have no room for large teas, so I got a band of Devoniensis this fall from Vintage. No top growth yet, but it has been outgrowing its pots faster than any other rose in my pot ghetto. I was really surprised. Masha |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| I think that the man on HelpMeFind was spot on...although I don't have the years experience to back it, it's just my intuition and watching the 3 plants here over the past 4 years. Each year they'll put out a basal that's thicker and more promising for mass than the year before, and then take a break for that year, except for a lot of flowers. I am fortunate in this area because we have a lot of Live Oak trees, and they are a perfect comparison because they grow very slowly. Pam's 5' specimen must be so beautiful. In the end, I think perhaps some coddling might help a little but you just cannot rush time! When I was at school, one of the best teachers, when he saw frantic students cramming for oral exams, said: "It is better to have studied than to study..." Applied to this case - I am glad I planted this rose 4 years ago....now I have less of a wait :-) Oh, and Gardenatlanta...how we could commiserate on planting things too close to walks and border edges! I did not realize that many of these plants are almost small trees! |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Oh, and Gardenatlanta...how we could commiserate on planting things too close to walks and border edges! I did not realize that many of these plants are almost small trees! *** Nor, years ago, did I realize that planting Tea Roses on 3.5-ft. centers was a poor strategy.
Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| I'm also guilty of planting tea roses too close together but did choose smaller teas such as Spice, Cels Multifloria and Mme. Melanie Willermoz. These were planted in the most prominent plot at the front entrance and of course that's where you want your prettiest and most interesting roses. I've not had great luck with polyanthas (although I do have Mr. Bluebird planted in that area and it is adorable), and generally don't admire them nearly as much as Teas and small Bourbons. It's a trade-off, and you do the best you can. The only larger tea I have there is Mme. Charles which is against the house wall next to Mutabilis, with the idea of covering as much of that blank wall as possible. I have hope that I can train it as a semiclimber so it won't impinge on the smaller growers in front of it. Part of the fun is seeing how you can tweak situations to get the most color and beauty in a certain space. I have a rose friend who has 169 or so roses in his tract-house garden and it looks crowded but really wonderful. After seeing his garden I didn't worry too much about having roses close together as long as they're well-fertilized and mulched, as his certainly are. Sorry, I didn't mean to stray so far off the subject. Ingrid |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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windeaux,
I have been taught that cuttings are indeed affected by the age of the parent plant but wierdly, I have always been told that juvenility is important and you ought NOT take cuttings from old bushes (unless there is no other option, i guess). I know this is the case with many perennials although it is more the actual strike rate of cuttings which is affected rather than their future growth. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Jeri, I love it! Yes - and I'm finding that even 5ft. centers is a bad idea if you don't want them to collide into each other. The plants are beautiful - but I have definitely learned by doing, and would have less "rose greed" if I were to do it again. Problem is: things are gonna look bare for the first few seasons before things grow up. But looking at matters as they stand now, I have overplanted some areas a lot. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Mine is only a year old but put out some really beautiful blooms late in the year in my Alabama garden. It's one I'm saying good bye to as I don't think it is a tea that will do well enough to justify its space in my little garden in the pnw. But it is really lovely. 
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RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Sorry for posting so much on my own thread....Masha, that shows the roots really grow on this rose before much happens on top. Actually I am thinking this is a good thing. I have had several roses I fed too much at first (organics and alfalfa tea...but too much) get really big and then have terrible wind rock because the top was too much for the roots. Actually lost a bush of Mme. Antoine Mari last November to high winds. The bush was large and very wide, but the roots did not go to match. Lesson learned. I still feed but don't go overboard. The "rock" crowd includes: Mme. Antoine Mari, William R. Smith, Baronne Henriette de Snoy, Rosette Delizy (man did I feed that puppy! and it got Huge), Adam and Mons. Tillier. In pots, I have noticed that Victor Velidan did hardly anything on top from a band to a 5 gallon pot...but the roots grew through the bottom into the soil! |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Gean, Gean -- Give it a try in the new garden! Jerome, I think the answer to that "bare" look is to just fill in with Salvias and Lavenders. And in fact, that's what we're going to do, as we pull OUT some of the things we can live without, to save water. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Jeri, really? I thought it was a rose that loved the heat... |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Gean, are you moving to the Pacific Northwest? |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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hi, Jerome,
Thank you for asking. Yes, we'll be north of Gig Harbor. I'm looking forward to meeting a lot of the people I just know online and growing some roses I've not tried in the south. I've whined on-line several times about having to leave my garden here, and I am glad you missed those threads! I hate whiners and I turned into one! ugh. But back to Dev, it had thought it is a tea that particularly craves heat - ? |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Jerome: I've suspected for some time that your "man on HelpMeFind" who posted those comments about 'Devoniensis' (plus insightful comments about other Teas), is, in reality, one of the women who authored the wonderful TEA ROSES -- OLD ROSES FOR WARM GARDENS. (At any rate, the first name is spelled the same way.) And you're right, those ladies are generally "spot on" in their observations about their favorite class of roses. Campanula: Thanks for your response to my earlier post. I found my notes on that lecture. The presenter's remarks were part of a lengthy rave on taking cuttings for rooting and for grafting. He also had definite opinions on the proper way to take cuttings from certain climbers. I'm going to work on deciphering those notes this afternoon when there will be some blessed peace & quiet while everyone else is watching the Super Bowl. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Gean, I think it may need heat -- but I don't know that for a fact. We have a couple of little rooted plants here, taken from a very old Dev in NoCal. 
These seem to me to have more vigor than either of the Devs we had years ago. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Could genes have mutated or something over the past hundred and fifty plus years so that the commonly found Devoniensis (the one in commerce today) is now a lower growing rose than the original OR could it be that the Devoniensis in commerce is perhaps a lower growing sport of the original? I wonder this because if you look at Vintage Gardens website (and other sites as well), they have Devoniesis listed as growth habit 1 (very low growing). With their experience, wouldn't they have seen this rose growing much bigger over time and wouldn't they amend the information on the site? I'm not picking on Vintage, just using them as an example of how maybe we're talking about two different versions. Just a theory. LOVE your photograph, Jeri. I'd be thrilled if my Devoniesis became a TREE like that one! |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Jeri, I spotted that remarkable photo of yours on HMF some time ago and have admired/marveled at it ever since. Your observation about the vigor of cuttings taken from that specimen seem perhaps to support the remarks made above by Campanula and Windeaux -- and, in fact, Jerome by reporting the experience of the Australian grower & the s-l-o-w maturation of Dev, bush form. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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Umm, yes.
Look this plant we photographed (and collected from) is probably 150 years old.
I'm thinking -- if we planted a Devoniensis NOW, let it get well-established, and did not prune it, we might very well have a plant of this stature 75 or so years from now.
I realize this demands an unreasonable amount of patience, but ...
When we first saw this plant, it had two "trunks." One went down in a bad winter.
Now this cemetery has hired some "blow and go" gardeners who are refusing to let it put up any new basals. We expect it to be gone in a few more years. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Wow. That's really, really sad. Maybe you can have it decalared an American Heritage Site. *smiles* |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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Well, it IS really, really sad.
And what is even sadder is that it is not an isolated case.
Even in the few years of our experience, a frightening number of once-huge, healthy plants have disappeared, When you see a 'Silver Moon' filling up the whole backyard of a half-collapsed shack -- and come back 6 months later to find the whole thing bulldozed for a parking lot and porta-potty -- that sends chills down your spine. Or it does me, anyhow. But part of my point was that we can't expect a plant to put on 100 years of growth in 3 years. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Did anyone here imply that they DO expect 100 years' growth in 3? |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| No. But we really don't know how long it takes to "grow up," so perhaps our expectations of it are off. People often tell me that they've seen 'Rosette Delizy' described as a "small Tea."
Mine's 10 ft. tall. I'm just saying, we don't have much of a track record. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| That Devoniensis you photographed Jeri: I'd be willing to camp out to protect it. It's flowers are the most beautiful things I've ever seen anywhere, anytime. My personal idea of perfection. I'd give my eye teeth to have plants from that one. J |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Jerome, there will be four plants from this one in the Sacramento City Cemetery Open Garden sale, this April. Does that tempt you? Gregg Lowery spoke recently of another Devoniensis of this size, also found in NoCal, which died after being pruned radically.
I really do worry about those "Blow & Go" gardeners. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| "Jerome, there will be four plants from this one in the Sacramento City Cemetery Open Garden sale, this April. Does that tempt you?"...Yes!!! Absolutely. |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| I so agree with Jerome, Jeri. Your picture almost brought tears to me eyes; that rose is so utterly beautiful. I've seen one climber and one small bush of Devoniensis personally but don't remember the flowers being nearly so full and lush. Perhaps the teas really just keep getting more beautiful as they age. That Devoniensis should be encircled by a 10-foot barbed wire fence so that no once can ever "trim it". You've mentioned so many times that some old, beautiful specimen of a rose had been either pruned to death or bulldozed that I can hardly bear to hear of another one. I suppose all we can do is grow on as many of our old beauties as possible so they don't vanish from the face of this so often ignorant, misguided world. Ingrid |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| I suppose all we can do is grow on as many of our old beauties as possible so they don't vanish from the face of this so often ignorant, misguided world. *** Yes -- That's the EASY part of preservation. We can all do this. Don't let a plant be the "last known . . . "
Give at least a small part of your garden to a rose, or a few roses, that are rare or endangered,
or unique in one way or another. Jeri |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| I think Devoniensis has the most beautiful blooms of ANY rose I have ever seen, either in pictures or in person. I had the shrub, but I gave it away - have no fear, it went to the best place it could possibly be. I had to downsize my little collection, and I felt that my less-than-optimal situation (west-facing balcony) AND being in a pot was not doing my Dev any good, so it went to a better home (I can visit it, though). But to anyone who has a good place for that rose, I would say GET IT. Jerome: I volunteer at the Sac City Rose Garden, and it would be a pleasure to meet you at the Open Garden if you manage to come for the Devoniensis plant that Jeri mentioned. It's always fun to meet the other garden-webbers! Laura |
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| If you all tell me the dates, I'll see what I can do. My situation is kind of "off the beaten track" and travel is not easy...But I could try to arrange something if I knew dates. The week of April 4th and the 22nd-27th would be impossible because of Easter and some guests coming to the abbey. |
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We'd love for you to come visit us.
April 17th is Open Garden. |
Here is a link that might be useful: cemetery website
RE: Devoniensis bush form
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| Yes, PLEASE come to my very favorite party, Jerome! Jeri |
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