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| We had a lot of snow this winter, and in particular a foot of wet snow in January did more damage in the garden than I've ever seen before. As far as all the broken canes and split branches are concerned, all I can do is grit my teeth and prune them off, but what about the general flattening of my handful of large Teas and Chinas? They don't look like they're going to return to their former shape, and if I don't want them to sprawl all over their areas of the garden, I'm going to have to cut them back, and quite a bit. So, how much pruning can a mature Tea or China rose take before it goes into serious sulks? Can I remove half the plant, or two thirds? Keep in mind that this includes most of the leafy growth. I'm sure some of you have had to deal with this problem before: what have you found out? Thanks! Melissa |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Someone may know better, but the Rule of Thumb for almost everything is never take more than a third off at any one time. I'd go slow and take them down over a couple of seasons--spring and fall pruning and maybe even next spring. |
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| If most perform similarly there compared to here, removing more than about a third can cause serious sulk. But, the bottom line is, you have to do what you have to do. Perhaps you can stake some of the flattened, but unbroken, growth back to a nearly upright position to encourage it to stand by itself? Think out side of the box and try some experiments. Resuming the original shapes may be that easy. Give it a try. Good luck! Kim |
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- Posted by cemeteryrose USDA 9/Sunset 14 (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 9:47
| Dr. Malcolm Manners prunes his Chinas back quite a bit - at least by half - at Florida Southern College. Last year, he coached me through taking my Comtesse du Cayla from a tangled mess about eight feet wide and seven feet tall to about 3 1/2 ft, leaving nothing but a structure, and told me I could have gone lower. The rose's sap ran for days and it didn't do anything while everything else was leafing out, but ultimately looked the best that it had in years. Interestingly enough, the flowers always scorched after a few hours in the intense Sacramento sun, but they held up much better. I think it was easier for water to get to them by not having to force its way along those long, thin canes. Teas, I think, are a tougher prospect, but he prunes them decisively too. We occasionally have an unknown "volunteer" whack back a Tea in the cemetery, to our great dismay, and they recover. Some Teas, like Maman Cochet, send out right-angled canes when cut and so they are vexing to keep in a graceful shape when you prune them. I've become convinced that most Teas don't have a graceful shape if you look at them closely, but the tangled, awkward mass of internal canes doesn'tt matter much if the outside is leafy and blooming. One thing that Cass taught me is that cutting off a China's lower cane and leaving other canes long and leafy will simply cause that cane to die back or produce very wimpy growth - the plant just shifts its energy into the canes that are already growing. That's why I took CdC down all the way. I think that you can convince the roses to grow upright once again by how you prune, removing some of the lower growth, and doing some "editing" as new growth appears, cutting off horizontal stuff and leaving the canes growing upright. An alternative, though, is to take a rose to a structured shape and let it regenerate. Another alternative is to prop a tripod in the middle and tie up some of the canes into the shape that you are seeking - I've used rebar for that purpose. As Kim said, it's good to experiment. I have found that split canes on Teas often continue to crank out growth and bloom as though nothing happened. Sometimes the cliche "this hurts me more than it hurts you" applies to roses - we think that they need some attention but they are just fine, and it's only our aesthetic judgement that is says there is a problem. Florida's climate and conditions (including the fact that Malcolm's roses are on fortuneana and mine are bare root) are different from Sacramento, and different yet from Italy, but I think that you get enough heat, Melissa, for your roses to make a comeback. |
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- Posted by mendocino_rose z8 N CA. (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 10:45
| I prune mine lightly but I can tell you about an experience I had with Susan Louise. She was horribly awkward, lanky and one caned. We had a late snow that broke her in two and I thought it was the end but she sent out new growth and ended up a much better plant. |
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| I decided to prune my very large Mutabilis because it was starting to decline. Once the leaves were gone I noticed the gopher hole which was the reason for its malaise. I pruned off more than a good half of the rose, leaving just bare, thick lower canes, and since then it's never looked better, beautiful and lush like never before. I don't know if you could do this often and get the same results, but at least for this china doing it once rejuvenated it beautifully. Ingrid |
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| As I am a beginner in this area and will soon acquire four more chinas/teas from Vintage, this is very helpful information. Eventually I'll be looking at keeping them shaped a bit. Thanks for the detailed info from different climate zones. Cemeteryroseyour information was very helpful since my climate is identical. I bought a Malespina Red China and a Comtesse du Cayla at your sale last year. They just went in the ground. Last year they both bloomed in their pots. Mary |
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- Posted by cemeteryrose USDA 9/Sunset 14 (My Page) on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 17:21
| UC Davis Arboretum lists Mutabilis as one of their "Valley All Star" plants and prune it very hard every winter, back to some new canes. I just chopped mine because I had to have some tree work done and it is sending out some vigorous new growth which I think I can keep shaped better than the overgrown pile that the rose had become. Mary, I'm glad you got some roses at our sale! Hope you can make it this year! |
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| I think you can get away with some harder pruning from time-to-time in most climates (not so much here) -- but I would strongly recommend NOT doing it year after year. I proved decisively that you can kill Mutabilis that way. Jeri |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 0:17
| Thanks for all the input, folks: this forum is great! You all make it so! I'll have to read all your comments through again and come to a decision. Right now I'm leaning toward pruning my roses hard, but just a portion of the plant, as my experience has been that they grow back starting at the point of pruning. It would be a shame to cut back the whole plant by a third, which would be inadequate, then have to cut off that new growth again, weakening the plant and not getting anywhere. Rather I think I might cut back half the rose by half, then wait a year and finish the job. I'm not sure Dr. Manners's methods can be applied to my roses: they're not grafted on Fortuniana, and we don't have his long growing season and summer rain. Plants grow a lot faster in Florida than they do in the Italian hills. The roses are the mess they are partly because I never pruned them back last year as I usually do: we'd had the coldest February since 1985 and I wanted to see if they'd suffered any freeze damage (they hadn't). So they were overgrown to begin with. About structures, I've tied up flopping Teas and Chinas and will do it again, but I think I've gotten about as far as I can with those methods. All these roses are on slopes and growing in among other plants and are difficult to work with. Melissa |
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