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Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Posted by Sow_what Southern California (My Page) on
Thu, Mar 13, 14 at 23:50

I'm designing the Garden of Lost Dreams, a contemplative yet playful garden that will include topiary and roses. I'm looking for a deep burgundy rose that doesn't turn pink during the hot, dry summers. Our winters tend to be mild, typically with a few short freezes. Nights usually cool down, even during our toasty summers. Irrigation is not an issue; we've stayed water thrifty everywhere else on the property, and will splurge on the roses if need be. The strong summer sun can be filtered a little or a lot by pruning some surrounding trees. Soil is well amended, and feeding is not a problem. Size of the rose is not important: long, flexible canes would be great, but a short rose or one with stiff canes might also work if its other attributes are garden-worthy.

I've learned so much, reading this forum -- I thoroughly enjoy it. I'm hoping to get advice regarding good burgundy roses for this garden, and currently have the following to choose from:

The Prince
The Squire
Prospero
LD Braithwaite
Red Eden
Braveheart

Any information will be tremendously appreciated.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 1:25

'Burgundy Iceberg'


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Burgundy iceberg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Rosa_'Burgundy_Iceberg'_plant.JPG


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Ascot, a Tantau grandiflora, available from Palatine nursery. Here's a close up. Diane


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Ascot, a Tantau grandiflora, available from Palatine nursery. Here's a close up. Diane


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Wow -- two votes for Burgundy Iceberg. Thank you both.

hoovb:

Thanks so much for being the first to express an opinion. I've read many of your posts, am impressed with your experience, and appreciative of your advice!

In my area (if I remember correctly, I'm more inland and hotter than you) Iceberg roses are hands-down, the most prolific bloomers I've ever seen. But the Burgundy Icebergs turn a magenta-pink in our hot sun, which I'm trying to avoid. I also prefer the form of the English and Romantica roses.

I'd rather have a gorgeous rose that blooms reasonably well than an average-looking nonstop bloomer. To my eye, many of the David Austins are heartbreakingly beautiful, so if I can find a deep burgundy that performs well in my area, and that doesn't fade to pink, that will be my first choice.

I don't have a lot of experience, so I'm open to all suggestions. Have you grown any of the roses I listed above?

Pictured below: new bloom just starting to open on my Claire Austin.


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by Sow_what noneSouthern Califor (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 3:51

Diane:

That Ascot is gorgeous -- is that yours? I didn't see any information on Dave's Garden, but the photos on HMF are also very beautiful.

Does this rose perform well in a hot, dry climate? How often/much does it bloom? Is it colorfast?

Also hoping to hear from anyone familiar with:

The Prince
The Squire
Prospero
LD Braithwaite,
Red Eden
Braveheart

Thank you!


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Can you plant some screening shrubs to provide some dappled afternoon shade?


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by Sow_what Southern California (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 4:56

Yes, there are bonsai jacaranda and other trees that can be pruned to moderate the sun on the roses some (shown in the first picture). Will that prevent a burgundy rose from fading to pink?


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I am up the coast from you in Santa Barbara, I am not sure what can keep a deep color rose from being hot pink at times. But

Darcey Bussell (David Austin) is under a tree for the heat of the day and blooms deep colors pretty reliably.

Prospero-Jeri has posted a lot of photos and it seems to be healthy and stay a deep tone. I do not have this rose.

Burgundy Iceberg seems to stay pretty Burgundy for me.

On the other hand:

Ebb Tide is purple now, but will be pink once it warms up.
Reine des Violettes is mostly hot pink
Munstead Wood can be hot pink at times (gets some shade)

If you like HT and some red tones, Mr Lincoln has a deeper tone in the heat, ours gets reflected heat as well and it does not seem to hurt the color too much


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Input from a place with hot dry summers, another vote for Burgundy Iceberg, although I may likely purchase The Prince soon.

Lynn


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I grow The Prince (it's not the biggest bloomer for me), and also Munstead Wood, which I recommend. I should mention that Ascot is tough as all get out for me, and I live in a hot dry climate/desert. If you want something more purple, try Ebb Tide or Twilight Zone. Each has its strong points. Wild Blue Yonder is burgundy as is Big Purple. Here's The Prince. Diane


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Jeri recommended Prospero highly many times but she was fairly close to the ocean. I'm afraid I have no knowledge of your other roses. I can't recommend the Wild Blue Yonder mentioned above since it looks modern and gets big, ungainly canes. I don't imagine many roses stay truly purple in the heat of the sun. You might try looking up your roses on Helpmefindroses. Very often people will post photos during the summer when the roses are more pink and you'll see which of your roses is least likely to have that propensity.


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

If you are looking for a deep burgundy rose, Braveheart won't work. I love Braveheart, but it is NOT burgundy at all--it is a very red red that doesn't fade--doesn't turn pinkish or purplish--it stays red red.

Braveheart--that's Braveheart on the left.



Kate


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by Sow_what Southern California (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 15, 14 at 0:49

Thank you everyone, for all the helpful suggestions. I have the opportunity to pick any rose I want for our charitable organization from Heirloom, and that's why I was asking about Propsero, The Squire, Braveheart, The Prince, and LDB. Of course , it can be any rose they carry, but I should make a decision by Monday.

Diane: I'm positively swooning over your Ascot, and you say it's a tough rose. What kind of bloomer is it, and does the color hold? That would be a dream rose for the Garden of Lost Dreams. I absolutely love it!

Kippy, Prospero sounds like it might be an option, but I had Mr Lincoln and gave it away because I don't love the form the way I do the English roses.

Lynn, if you get Prince before I do, let me know how you like it, and I'll do the same. Iceberg is a great staple, but just not magical enough for this garden.

Ingrid, you're right, I'm not enchanted by the modern roses, but I don't mind ungainly canes, since I'll probably espalier or pillar or do some kooky thing if I end up with an octopus. I'm 10 degrees hotter than the beach, but it still helps to know about Prospero -- thanks!

Kate, from your pic it looks as if Braveheart is a deep red, rather than a screaming fire engine red -- is that so? How often/much does it bloom, and do you know if it holds up in the heat? Are you familiar with Rouge Royale, to compare them color and bloomwise?

My inclination right now is toward Ascot if there's a good chance it'll perform well in my zone, or maybe Braveheart. Still hoping to hear about the others on my list, but if not, does anyone have other suggestions for an extraordinarily beautiful rose of any color from Heirloom that performs well in a hot, dry climate with good irrigation?


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Sow-what--Ascot is a beautiful rose--I'd get one myself if I had room for any more roses!

As to Braveheart, it is a wonderful shrub in some respects and a bit of an irritant in others. Yes, it is a beautiful dark red--rich ruby depths and fairly large blooms. And when it blooms, it is fairly profuse. However, it does rest between bloom cycles--a bit too long for me sometimes. It has terrible thorns, if that matters to you. Its major problem is a kind of awkwardness in shape--big heavy branches that extend outward awkwardly sometimes--though that is not noticeable when it is in full bloom. It is fairly good on disease-resistance--but could be a bit better (I wish). I would guess that in a hot dry environment, it would do even better on that score. It is quite a sight when it is in full bloom--an eye-stopper. The blooms last a fairly long period of time, and as I said earlier, do not fade to pinkish or purplish. It retains that gorgeous ruby red color. Braveheart gets about 3.5x4--somewhat wider than tall. Those canes get heavy enough when in bloom that you may need to prop up the ends of some of them sometimes.

I have seen pictures only of Rouge Royale. I think they are similar in color, but I can't say more than that--except Rouge Royale is another one I'd love to have if I had more room in my garden.

Hope that helps. Lucky you getting to pick out the loveliest roses of your own choice!

Kate


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Kate:

Thanks so much! I've been watching Rouge Royal for a while in a client's garden, and it is a pretty bloom, though not nearly as pretty (to my eye) as Ascot. It holds its color well, even in extreme (over 100F) heat. It does have a couple of blooms on the shrub much of the time, but I've never seen it with a lot of roses. That may be because it wasn't planted in particularly good soil, it never gets fed, and is pelted daily with the turf irrigation. It's a short rose with thick, rigid canes.

Can you say roughly how long Braveheart typically goes between flushes?

-jannike


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I grow The Prince in my home garden. Some people fault the plant, which is fairly upright. It grows perhaps three feet wide by four feet high in my garden, which is a nice modest size which I like. The blooms look like Nanadoll's, except that they do tend to burn in the hot sun. I think that some afternoon shade would be better here in Sacramento. I don't water generously so perhaps it would like some more water, too. I'm content with the amount and frequency of bloom, it smells fabulous, and when it's good it's very very good. Definitely holds the deep color but sometimes edged with brown when it's hot.
Anita


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I've written several times now about Wild Edric, of which I have four bands, because I'm very interested in a rose that can handle hot sun, drought and poor soil. The leaves seem to be disease-free and the purplish flowers have a wonderful wild rose fragrance. La France, Sophy's Rose and Bishop's Castle have done well for me in the heat also.

Ingrid


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Yes, that is my Ascot. In fact, I have two of them. They are 2 or 3 years old, and have been very fast growers, so you won't have to wait very long for a mature looking rose with this one. For me, they are very large, and I assume in your climate, your Ascot would be as large or larger. At this point they are pushing seven feet and a minimum of 4 feet wide. I'm just mentioning this so you can plan accordingly. Ascot stands up well in the heat, and we have a hot, dry climate (it's semi-arid desert here), and doesn't do much, if any, fading. Since we don't have blackspot, I can't comment on its disease resistance, but it's very vigorous and healthy. It reblooms well, but is not continuous. It has very little scent to my nose. I expect my two may grow some more since they are still young. I am very pleased with this rose so far.
I sited my Prince in an area with quite a bit of shade. It was a trade off because I was concerned with its blooms burning. They don't in this location, but I think there is less blooming because of the part shade. It's a lovely smaller Austin with a nice shape and blooms that smell great. Diane


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by Sow_what Southern California (My Page) on
    Sun, Mar 16, 14 at 3:56

Anita (also Ingrid and Diane):

Thank you for the input. I like The Prince a lot, and Ingrid, I'm crazy about Wild Edric -- it's a rose I would never have given a look, so thanks for pointing it out. It would have made a wonderful hedge here had I known about it earlier, and I'm definitely going to keep it in mind for another area. Do you have an idea the tallest height it might reach in a sunny Redlands California garden?

For the burgundy rose spot in the Garden of Lost Dreams, I can't stop thinking about Diane's Ascot -- I LOVE that rose. I love the color. I love the form. The size works really well. I haven't been able to find a picture of it anywhere to make me change my mind. Thank you, Diane, for introducing me to something so beautiful. My last question, for Ascot, The Prince, and Braveheart is the approximate amount of time between bloom flushes. About how long does each have blooms, and about how long does it go without blooms?

This forum is a wonderful resource, with a lot of gardeners who are very generous in sharing their time and advice -- thank you everyone. I need to select pink and apricot roses as well, but will ask that under a separate post. -jannike


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I thought I posted a response about Braveheart yesterday, but it isn't here. Maybe I'm forgetting to press the SUBMIT button? I seem to often have missing posts. Hmmmmm.

Here goes again. I don't know that I've ever actually measured Braveheart's "rest" time between blooming cycles. I'm guessing about a month. It probably isn't any longer than the "average" rose--but I get impatient waiting for it to start again.

Good news is that the blooms on Braveheart last quite a long time without serious deterioration or fading or falling apart. Retain shape, form, and color very well.

You asked earlier about performance in hot weather. It has been very good--except if we get into excessively hot July-Aug (daily over 100 degrees)--then my whole garden, including Braveheart, goes on vacation and doesn't return until temps start to moderate in the cooler autumn weather.

Hope that helps. I must agree that Ascot is gorgeous and if you are looking for height, probably more suited to your needs. Braveheart only gets about 3.5 ft high.

Kate


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I'm curious about the source for Ascot. No North American nurseries listed on HMF, but I saw a note that Palatine in Canada had been a source.

I really don't pay attention to repeat bloom times. I'm often gone in the summer, and the Sacramento heat slows things down to. I know that the Prince isn't as generous as Barbara's Pasture Rose, which is right next to it. I don't fertilize my plants much, if at all, so I don't know how much bloom I get in comparison to other rose growers. Sorry.
Anita


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I love your garden picture, Kate. What about Cardinal Hume? In my garden it gets some blackspot but in your climate it might not. It's a vigorous plant with good repeat bloom. It tends to bloom in clusters, with several colors present at once, depending on the age of the bloom. They are various shades of dusky red and burgundy. It has lots of orange hips in fall.
I wonder how Ascot does own root.


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Ascot is available from Palatine, grafted on multiflora, as far as I know. I don't think it's available own root anywhere. Ascot's downtime between blooming isn't very long, maybe a week or two, but the big flush is in spring. Remember, my plants are not fully mature yet, so it will be interesting to see how they do this year. We've had a nicer winter (sorry all you others who've had such a nasty winter; I'm sure we'll get a payback), and we've had more moisture, and that bodes well for a good rose season. Diane


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by Sow_what S. California: Inlan (My Page) on
    Sun, Mar 16, 14 at 20:27

Where does Multiflora rootstock typically do well? Many of the roses I see out here are on Dr Huey, but I think our David Austins are on Fortuniana or own root.


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I checked on Munstead today, first bud is opening, looks like I will get a bunch in a week or so. But it is more on the hot pink side of burgundy than wine side. I will check it again tuesday and see what the shade is doing. We did add acid plant soil to the bed to try and adjust the ph, a side effect should have been more wine tones but nothing noticeable yet.


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

The Prince has been a sickly powdery mildew magnet, stingy and slow growing rose for me, producing magnificent roses with heavenly old rose scent whenever it suspects I'm ready to shovel prune it and then frying them in the sun. Not recommended as a garden plant, at least in my climate.

Darcey Bussel's blooms look similar to the Prince to me, button eye and all, similar colour maybe a tad lighter but more cupped than Prince's quartered, with the plant looking much healthier and floriferous, although it is too young to really tell. The price you pay is that fragrance is only light but nice (mixture of old rose and fresh tea).
Nik

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Mon, Mar 17, 14 at 4:51


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Multiflora rootstock supposedly doesn't do as well in alkaline soil, which I have, but most of the roses on this rootstock do fine in my garden, including Ascot. It seems to depend on the individual rose. The majority of my roses are grafted on Dr Huey, and some do better than others, also. So, I'm not getting too hung up on rootstock issues. Diane


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Usually, grafted DAs are on Dr. Huey.

I seem to remember someone saying that multiflora rootstock might also be a bit sturdier or vigorous--the plant they send might be a bit bigger/stronger. Or something like that.

I have a number of multiflora rootstock roses from Canada--they are all good strong growers!

Kate


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Our soil is alkaline, but it's been well amended with plenty of peat. When you're using multiflora, does anything need to be done to the soil on an ongoing basis?


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I don't think so. The differences are minor, although some gardeners make a big deal out of the minor differences. I grow both Dr. Huey rootstock and multiflora rootstock--6 one way and half a dozen the other.

Kate


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

I stopped by the local rose park this morning and thought I would up date his thread

Prospero looks wonderful and the grouping must have 100 buds waiting to open. I will return this weekend with the camera and hope a few have opened


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Can't wait to see your pictures!

-jannike


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

jannike, I'm not sure, but I believe Wild Edric may reach 5 feet. Mine are babies so I have no personal experience.

So you're in Redlands? When I was much younger I lived in Beaumont and Yucaipa for some years. I can remember when Redlands still had orange groves. I suppose they must all be gone by now.

Ingrid


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

  • Posted by Sow_what S. California: Inlan (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 21, 14 at 3:42

Ingrid:

I'll be anxious to hear how your Wild Edric do. Yucaipa is just a bit east of us, and Beaumont is about 30 miles east. Most of the orange groves are gone; it's such a shame. When they started ripping them out in Orange County, I started planting small ones there. Not so popular then, but I love the fragrance and feel of an orchard, and of course, the fruit. The whole time I've lived in this area, they've been ripping out orange groves. I have a small citrus orchard in the Garden of Forgotten Dreams, and I'm so glad. It's like saving a tiny scrap of our heritage. And the fragrance of orange blossoms and roses -- heavenly!

Speaking of fruit, does anyone like poison Apples??? (below)


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Prospero Yesterday
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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Diane, are you growing just one Ascot, or do you have multiples planted together?

Kippy, your Prosperos are very pretty!

Thanks. -jannike


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RE: Beautiful Burgundy Rose for a Hot, Dry Climate

Hot DRY climate? I LOVE Prospero, but . . .

FWIW, The Squire, and Prospero are the first among roses to shrivel to potpourri, when hot, dry, desert winds blow here. And when I say "Potpourri," I don't mean something pretty.

I LOVE Prospero, for my coastal garden, but I'm not sure I would try it where the winds were high, and the humidity low, on a regular basis.

Burgundy Iceberg does very well here, and repeats quickly ... but I have also only seen that in a coastal environment.


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