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| I purchased 'Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee' from Hortico last year and planted it in a spot for a 3 to 4 foot small shrub. I did this knowing it most probably was not the 3-4 foot shrub but something else. The something else has turned out to be a very healthy SdDJ, which bloomed a tad last year but I think will bloom very well this year. It is a beautiful rose here. My problem is that it is not in a spot which will accommodate a climber. I don't want to move it so am wondering if it can be grown as an arching shrub. If you grow this, do you grow it as a climber? Do you think it could be grown as a self supporting shrub? Any other comments about it? Last year it had mildew problems but this year it is so far clean with a lot of buds. Really lovely. Gean |
This post was edited by harborrose on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 1:46
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by mendocino_rose z8 N CA. (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 10:02
| I think you could grow it as a shrub if you have the space for the arching branches. Mine hasn't been terribly lax though I have grown it supported by an apple tree. |
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| I eventually discarded mine because it was constantly disfigured by mildew or rendered leafless by blackspot. I might have tolerated these health issues if it had performed well, but it is one of the stingiest of all the Hybrid Perps. |
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- Posted by harborrose 8a-PNW (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 12:19
| hi, Pam, I might have to enlarge the bed to accommodate it as an arching shrub. Some of the canes are upright, some are really lax. Have you noticed how it reacts to pruning? Well, trospero, I appreciate the words of warning. What you described is what I actually expected. What it's doing is totally unexpected. I'm just watching to see what it will do. I have read it likes to be well fed, and it's in great soil, morning sun/shade. Maybe I'll be surprised and it will continue to do well. Right now I have spring optimism, but time will tell. Gean |
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| Bear with me: I have an area which is comprised of a "double bed." Against the property wall is a flower bed demarcated by a cemented-in brick edging, and in front of that I eventually installed another bed (originally intended for a traditional bed of perennials, but at present featuring classic Floribundas and compatible roses). In what we might call the "wall bed"--against the wall--are roses which are more or less tall and stiff, such as 'Portland from Glendora' ('Joasine Hanet'), 'William Lobb', 'Duc de Brabant', 'Erinnerung an Brod', 'Gloire de Chedane-Guinoisseau', believe it or not 'Hermosa' (if you let it, it builds into a tall shrub), my own 'Charles XII', and . . . 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain'. Though the plant of the good Doctor looks slight among these other mighty growers, what it does is to insinuate its wiry canes among the others; and, lo and behold, the day comes when one sees its velvety black-burgundy blossoms peeking out among the others, enriching the total display in an indescribably beautiful way. Directly in front of it, in the lower bed, is a specimen of the wonderful 'Peach Beauty'; and just last week I was admiring the festoon of velvety blossoms of 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' amongst the blossoms of 'Peach Beauty'. This, in my opinion, is the best way in which to use roses of the habit of 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain'; but perhaps not many people plan their gardens in a way which could accommodate this usage. As to disease, all I can say is that, in buying roses that I want, I pay little to no attention to whether they are reputed subject to fungus maladies, and plant them anyway. I stopped spraying years ago, and have found--incontrovertibly-- that the plants, after about three years, become much less subject to disease, or in some cases they have a wave of disease, drop their leaves, and then are resistant in the new leaves they develop for the remainder of the season. Remember that, just as with insecticides, when you spray for the bad stuff, you also kill the good stuff that keeps the bad stuff under control naturally. 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' is not a generous rose; but it is a rose which, for that very reason, provides magnificent surprises when least expected. The garden is like a symphony. You don't want a constant fortissimo, and with the same dulling rhythm, and with the same notes repeated over and over and over. It's all about the variations, the artful crescendi and diminuendi, the interplay between the different instruments, the combining, uncombining, and recombining. 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' is not the trombone or the trumpet in this symphony; it's the English horn. Gardening is all about developing one's skills in orchestration . . . |
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| What an elegant description. I have a lot of wildflowers mixed in the rose bed & though their flowers, compared to the roses, are "little nothings" they compliment the queens of the garden so sweetly. It pleases my eye to see the tiny yellow 4-nerve daisies, white fleabane daisies, blue gilia, lacey guara flowers, etc. spangled about the feet of the roses. |
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- Posted by jon_in_wessex z8/9 UK (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 14:55
Any word of Brent's is worth a thousand pictures, but here's just one:  And yes, that is the best way to grow this wonderful rose and enjoy whatever blooms it gives you. Best wishes |
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| Taking Brent's thoughtful comments into account, I think it bears mention that the climate differences bring something incredibly important into the recipe: my climate is not at all forgiving when it comes to disease, and every HP I have grown has gradually dwindled and died as a result of repeated, chronic defoliation from disease. I abandoned fungicides gradually from 2006 onwards (the Moore Miniatures archive was the last to be sprayed, and that was in 2011), and I did not see any improvements in the disease resistance in any of the Hybrid Perpetuals. I blame that failure on my climate. Brent has the advantage of a more benign California climate. Yes, it has its own challenges, but I daresay it is much kinder to roses in general. |
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| Mmmm, - well, it is of its type...and taking into account the gaunt growth, awkward cane architecture and reluctant flowering (I find all these large flowered red climbers (Chateau de Clos Vouget, Etoile de Holland, Souvenir du Claudius Denoyel to be lacking in....something), it can be grown well (but not, probably by me) and it is surprisingly amenable to putting up with not very good soil and a fair amount of shade. I am inclined to set it loose among a hedgerow planting since it will throw long canes....but quite sparsely and unbiddably angular. It definitely needs a supporting cast of clematis, sweet peas, and a stout supporting viburnum or summat. A combination of velvety sophistication and gamine charm helps me to overlook the blackspot (especially since it is never bushy with lush foliage). |
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| odinthor's remarks are poetry in words (even when used in prose) and jon's contribution is poetry in a picture. Wonderful juxtaposition of colors and textures with the rose drawing in the eye and then leading it up and around to the other lovely plants. Ingrid |
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- Posted by harborrose 8a-PNW (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 17:33
| I listened to this and imagined Brent's garden and wall of roses. Thank you, all. Gean |
Here is a link that might be useful: Quiet City
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| Thanks very much! Jon's beautiful pic has a closer relation to my "lower bed" than he might have thought: For 80% of the bed, the roses are underplanted with Columbines--not pink ones as in Jon's picture, but blue ones (which are pretty much my own strain derived from Aquilegia 'Hensol Harebell', A. atrata, A. pyrenaica, and A. yabeana). The other 20%, where it's shadier, is prettily covered by Geranium 'Biokovo', a truly outstanding garden plant. Jon's blossoms of 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' are rather larger than mine; the variety clearly thrives under his conditions! |
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| I planted SdDJ after seeing it in Jon's garden. Heart-wrenchingly beautiful. Mine was a reluctant plant, but I kept it for the fleeting but lovely roses. Then a couple of years ago gophers killed it. Seeing new growth now coming up from the roots where it once lived, I think I'm getting a second chance. Rosefolly |
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| OH WOW, that is so gorgeous. I'm nursing a baby band & can't wait to enjoy a bloom or 2. |
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- Posted by mauvegirl8 none (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 21:22
| Is Dr. Jamain darker than The Prince, Cardinal de Richelieu, or Reine des Violettes? Alice Vena? |
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- Posted by harborrose 8a-PNW (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 22:49
| Here's a pic of 'Cardinal de Richelieu' from the Sacramento City Cemetery for comparison. The shrub form is completely different. 'Reine des Violettes' is lighter. I don't know about the others.
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| Oh my goodness, the Cardinal is gorgeous! When a shrub is that large and covered with roses that are such a glorious color it's unsurpassed. Naturally I wish it would bloom all year and thrive in my hot garden! Ingrid |
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- Posted by mauvegirl8 none (My Page) on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 23:52
| beautiful......... |
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| I suddenly realized as I "reviewed the troops" in my garden today that in my April 29 post above I mentioned 'Duc de Brabant' as one of the roses on my wall. Make that 'Duc de Bragance'. Sigh, I've always had some sort of mental block against that name... |
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| I want to second everything Odinthor said regarding Souv. du Dr. Jamain, roses in general, and particularly the comments with regard to pesticides and fungicides. I suggest that in climates like mine where roses go nearly, but not quite, dormant in the dead of January, that a lime sulfur spray at dormant concentration seems to be helpful, done right after pruning. I learned this from Luanne, I think it was. That's about the only spraying I do. Several years ago I released trichogramma wasps and lace wings and my neighbor released lady bugs. I still have all three in my garden. I have had Dr. Jamain for a number of years now and this is clearly not an ideal climate for this rose. Mine blooms sparsely and is not a strong grower, but in my opinion there is no more beautiful red rose. There is no picture that I've seen that fully captures the velvety texture and very deep, dark, intense raspberry red shading in the petals. The first time you see this rose bloom you will be entranced by it. And of course it is very fragrant. Letting this rose climb up through other vegetation seems to be the ideal way to grow it. Virtually any climber can be kept pruned as a shrub, and after the first few years it requires no more pruning effort to keep it in shape than with a rose we normally think of as a shrub. That said however, not all climbers are going to make good shrubs, and I would guess Dr. Jamain is one of those that won't be very satisfactory as a shrub.
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- Posted by harborrose 8a-PNW (My Page) on Sun, May 5, 13 at 19:13
| Odinthor, I enjoyed making the acquaintance of both 'Ducs' as well as 'Charles XII' and the others on your rose wall. What a lovely picture! Newtie, thank you. I am thinking hard about its trumpet counterpart. Gean |
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| I'm sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I just inherited this rose from a friend and am looking for a good place to plant it. It has been planted in her garden for several years now, but in a position with poor soil (sandy) and a lot of shade. So much shade that is has never bloomed. It is healthy enough, but the canes are thin and only about 3 ft tall. I'd like to put it in a place where it gets some shade but not too much, and a place where I can enjoy the fragrance. I have a prominent spot in mind but ... Descriptions of this rose online say that it gets to be about 3 ft wide, and maybe 8-10 tall. Would you say this is accurate? I can grow it as a small climber against a Gazebo so I would prefer it to go up rather than out :) Will it only bloom at the tips this way, or will it bloom all the way up the cane? Can I allow it to grow straight up, or should I try to train the canes along the gazebo horizontally to encourage more flowering along the length? Some roses seem to need this treatment considerably more than others. Also, the colour is always difficult to tell online. It would be planted next to (very close to) a Clematis "Niobe" which is a beautiful dark red. I know there wouldn't be much contrast in colours but I thought the Clematis could fill in some of the bloom when the rose isn't blooming? Do you think that would work? Is the growth habit of the rose very dense, or is it spacious enough to allow a clematis to grow amongst it? Do you think the two colour would go well together, or would they clash? I can't tell the true colour of Souv Du Dr Jamain in internet photos ... I don't want the two "reds" to clash and look awful together. Any advice would be appreciated! I have to get this rose into the ground fairly soon so if this spot won't work, I'll have to try to find another. |
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| Like many long-caned Hybrid Perpetuals, SDDJ can be trained or pruned to fit a variety of spaces. I used mine as a short climber to get more blooms by training canes horizontally. Pegging can achieve a similar effect. I think Niobe is more of a purplish red than Dr J, but I don't think they would clash. However, I think more of a light contrasting color would show up the darker Doctor to greater degree. Mine eventually died due to blackspot (I don't spray), but it looked good against lighter pink, white and medium pink roses. |
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| Thank you lori_elf ... that is a beautiful photo! I think I will probably put Souv. Du Dr Jamain in the spot I originally thought, and perhaps move the Clematis Niobe over to a different location. Then I could plant a new Clematis, of a lighter more contrasting colour, next to the rose to help compliment a sporadic bloom. I can grow it up the front post of the Gazebo, and then let it spread out a little along the wall (although not as far along as a fence). I hope it will bloom all the way up the cane, even if I can't peg it or train too many canes horizontally. |
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