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ID this very old rose?

Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on
Tue, Apr 23, 13 at 9:22

As most of you know, I have been trying to identify old roses in my garden which were planted by my DH's ancestors over the last 100 years.

Most of them have been identified with your help. Yesterday, I noticed one which I keep forgetting about, because it is literally growing in the middle of a large Japanese quince bush, and is invisible except for this time of year, when it puts out a few blooms. I rooted it once, and planted two plants at my MIL's house in full sun. It got about 2 1/2 feet tall, and of course repeated. The canes were very thin and sort of flopped over, because the blooms are so heavy. The blooms are VERY double - never counted the petals - but not sure I can count that high!

The ones I rooted are gone, as my MIL's house was sold and the garden completely re-done. My original plant is still going, to my amazement. It, as you might imagine, has climbed up to get some sun from out of the middle of the quince bush, and its tallest parts are about 7-8 feet above the ground. Here is a picture of a fully open bloom - I will post a few more in sequential posts, as I have not figured out how to post more than one picture at a time. Any thoughts or welcome as to who (or even what kind of rose) it may be. Thanks -

Jackie


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: ID this very old rose?

  • Posted by TNY78 7a-East TN (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 23, 13 at 11:51

the first two that came to mind were Break O Day and Alchemist...

very very pretty rose! I love full petaled apricots!

tammy


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Jackie, could it be Mme. Jules Gravereaux?


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There are 3 more pictures of this rose above in separate posts.

Jackie


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Thanks for the ideas 0

definitely not Break O Day or Alchemist - they are both way off in color. Mine is really light - that one very open bloom is as dark as it ever gets. Mme Jules Gravereaux is a possibility, although it also looks a bit dark.

Anyone have any other thoughts?

Jackie


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RE: ID this very old rose?

  • Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 23, 13 at 17:19

Fragrant? 'Gloire de Dijon'. Oft planted as 'Old Glory' back in the day.


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Drat! I was excited because several of the pictures on HMF of different stages of the Gloire de Dijon blooms, showing the different colors, DO looks just like the rose in my quince bush. But, I just went to smell it, and could not discern any fragrance at all. I am not sure it is a climber - as I recall the rooted cuttings were in the ground for over 6 years, and never put up any climbing canes. It is only getting tall enough now to obtain a bit of light.

Jackie


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RE: ID this very old rose?

OK. You answered my question. It IS in deep shade.

The furthest I'd be prepared to go, I think, is probable Tea Rose. But, even THERE, you miss things like 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam,' which are Hybrid Tea Roses with a strong look of Tea Rose.

Any chance of finding blooms next month, for Celebration Of Old Roses? You'll have a goodly turnout of OGREs for that, so might get some good guesses.

Jeri


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RE: ID this very old rose?

Jeri - it is literally growing way deep inside of a large Japanese quince bush, under a tree and some other stuff (roses continue to amaze me) - it has been there forever. I can only see about the top one foot of it, as it has barely managed to get some cane tips out into the light.

If any are still blooming I will definitely bring them to the Celebration - that is a great idea. Thanks -

Jackie


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Jackie-

Can you smell tea roses? I cannot. Paul Barden explained to me that there are certain molecules (for lack of the scientific term) that make up tea rose scents. Some people can smell them, some can't- and I am in that camp unfortunately.

I thought the bloom looked like Gloire de Dijon also- but I am not very experienced in IDing roses.

Marleah


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OK - this is another thread I am reviving, for the same reason I revived my thread about the old Peace rose. Under my "greenhouse" upside down fish tank on our back porch is a cutting of this mystery rose - it has been there over 6 months. It is also growing and putting out leaves, and has also gotten so tall that its leaves are smushed against the top of the fish tank. My DH just told me that he CAN raise up the fish tank somehow about 3-4 inches, and still make it stable enough for my large cats to jump up on it as it is their favorite perch.

Raising it will also let more air into it, and I am hoping that in a few weeks both this rose and the Peace rose cutting will have become more used to less humid and colder air, so that I can eventually move them into the garden. Of course, it just got cold (for here), so I have to be careful about putting them outside.

(lightbulb!) - we have a plastic thingy which is designed to fit over large tomato cages, so that you can start tomatoes but protect them from rain, etc. in the Spring. Ha! I think that after a month or so under the raised fish tank, I will put these two roses (they are both already in one gallon pots) out in the garden under the tomato-protect thing, inside of a tomato cage. This will protect them from the weather, and also from the deer. It hasn't rained here appreciably since December of 2012, and we now have resident deer (a doe and her fawn from last Spring) living in our garden, or I should say neighborhood - they migrate among about 5 gardens, so they show up here once or twice a week. Anyway, usually when it really starts raining our local deer disappear until Summer, but it hasn't started raining yet. I can't wait.

Sorry this is so muddled, but I am really getting excited about these two rooted cuttings. I am hoping to be able to post pictures of this mystery one blooming by next Spring. I really want to figure out who it is.

Jackie


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Here is another picture of this mystery rose - partially opened bud.

Jackie


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The picture above shows the rose surrounded by quince foliage - here are the actual rose leaves:


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I don't know what it is, but I sure like it. :-)

Jeri


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I know next to nothing about old roses, but does anyone else think this could be 'Devoniensis'?

Here is a link that might be useful: Photos of 'Devoniensis' at HMF


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Hmm. It's not 'Devionensis,' the leaves are wrong. I have a strong inclination towards 'Mme. Berard' also known as 'Adam.'

Could you possibly post a few more pics of foliage. I'm looking for pointed leaves to see if we are even in the right category of roses by guessing a Tea.

Thanks!

Josh


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Josh - you may have something! I looked at the pictures of Adam on HMF, and what struck me was the color change from a light, clear pink to the buff/gold of the old blooms (as exp in the first pic I posted at the beginning of this thread).

I just went out and looked at the original plant. What few leaves it has left from last year are not in good shape - here is the best picture I could get of them - hope it helps. I can get better ones next Spring, of course.

Jackie


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Jackie,

Perfect! That little pointy protrusion at the end of the leaves was what I was hoping to see! What I am seeing as identifying factors for the rose are:

Petal count and color are similar to Mme. Berard

Foliage is a 5 leaflet

The edges of the leaves are slightly serrated just as Mme. Berard shows

The leaves are a more rounded, broad shape than, say, Duchesse de Brabant which has narrower leaves

The structure of the thorns on the canes, and the spacing between them is quite similar (see linked photo)

Since I do not own the rose, I cannot say for certain. Perhaps Mrs. Jennings could give a second opinion? I also believe that Aimeekitty grows the Madame so perhaps we can get her in here to take a look.

Thanks again for the photo

Josh

Here is a link that might be useful: A decent comparison photo


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Josh - thank you so much! Now I am even more excited to get my rooted cutting into the ground in some decent sun to see what it does. Fall is planting time here, so perhaps I will be able to do that soon. Of course, it won't do anything but grow more roots until Spring, but then we shall see. There are lots of good pictures on HMF, including of hips, so by next year I should have way more data to try and identify this rose.

I am confused about your statement that Mme Berard is "also known as Adam". I looked up both of these roses in HMF and it doesn't say anything about them possibly being the same - to the contrary, it says that one was hybridized in 1838 and the other in 1870. They do certainly resemble each other from the pics in HMF.

Anyway, they are both listed as "climbing" teas, which is great as far as I am concerned - I love climbers, and as my garden is sun challenged (or rather I should say that I have already used up the sunny spots with roses), sometimes I can find a spot for a climber where it will get a lot of sun eventually - after it gets tall.

Another thing that makes me happy that both are listed as climbers - years ago I rooted this rose and planted one in my MIL's garden, in full sun (we lost it when the house was sold). I was disappointed - it put out several thin, floppy canes which were about 2 feet long. They flopped, of course, because the blooms are so heavy. Looking back, that is exactly the behavior of an OGR juvenile climber! It was still in the "creeping" stage - that makes me feel so much better. Also, my MIL had "gardeners" who like to keep everything neat and tidy - I would not be surprised if they had lopped off any offending canes that presumed to stick up too tall!

Jackie


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RE: ID this very old rose?

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 12:42

What he means is that there is a rose currently in commerce in the US, sometimes sold as 'Mme Berard' and sometimes as 'Adam'. I'm not sure if this is just an American thing, though -- the roses currently sold under these names elsewhere may be be different from each other. At least at Rogue Valley Roses, the rose they offer as 'Mme Berard' has 'Adam' as a synonym.

Yes, it's very likely that there were originally two different roses, but as many antiques were rediscovered as unnamed plants and matched up to old descriptions, it's likely that one rose was called one name by some, and another name by others. To make it more confusing, another name that sometimes gets used is 'The President'.

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 12:52


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I am reviving this thread to give you an update on my attempts to root this old rose. I did get one cutting to take, and in the same pot another little piece I was trying to root just sat there. I mean, sat there, period. However, it did not turn black, so I left it.

The other piece is now a little bush, which is still in a pot. I will try and get it into the ground, but I want to find out whether or not we will be having mandatory water rationing effective April 1 - they don't know yet. If we do I will plant it in a larger pot I can keep near the house for hand watering with bath water.

Anyway, the other little piece is still green, and not showing any signs of sprouting after 3 1/2 months. However, this morning I noticed something emerging from the soil next to it - a little rose sprout! Could it be sprouting from the roots? Roses do the most amazing things! Here is a pic:


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Congratulations, Jackie. That is so exciting! Keep us updated, please. Carol


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OK - here is an update 2 weeks later - the little new sprout coming straight out of the dirt next to the motionless but still green cutting is now almost a foot high! I just wanted to let other people know - if you have tried to root a cutting, and it does not die but just sits there for many months doing nothing but staying green, do not give up - perhaps a new shoot will come off the roots - that must be what happened here. You can still see the top of the original cutting in the pic - still just sitting there.

Both this pot (with 2 now sprouting cuttings of this old mystery rose) and another pot with a happily growing new plant from the last cutting I was able to save off my very old (probably planted in late 1940s or very early 1950s) Peace rose as it died are still inside of a sort of plastic greenhouse designed for tomatoes.

I am hoping that by the time I need to use the site for tomatoes, these roses will be ready to go into the ground, or at least huge pots. I can't wait for this one to bloom, so that perhaps you all can help me identify it. I will definitely look at it vs 'Adam' / 'Mme Berard' - that seems to be the best guess so far.

Jackie


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Jackie,

Wow! That's an impressive shoot! I must admit that I'm jealous...if only my cuttings took off like that!

I'm looking forward to seeing the first bloom. Hopefully we can get your rose confidently ID'd. Job well done on saving this treasure!

Josh


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Wanted to update this thread - I just planted the rooted cutting from this rose. Lots of buds - I have decided to let most of them bloom before removing. Still trying to identify - evidently Adam is a possibility.

Jackie


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Mme Berard is definitely a possibility. The one at the Heritage doesn't climb, but the one Gregg has is a small climber. Perhaps it needs certain conditions to climb.
Jill


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Jackie, this is such an amazing thread! I have goose bumps watching your antique rose root, grow and bloom!! The cutting in the photo is maturing so quickly. Such a beautiful rose!

Rooted cuttings that just sit there: I also have experience with do nothing rose cuttings coming up from the roots--either cuttings that just sat and failed to leaf or tiny rooted roses that died to the ground and returned from the roots. My damasks often behave this way as do my albas and even my HPs and bourbons. My hybrid tea and floribunda cuttings have been more likely to croak after sitting aimlessly.

Carol


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The more it grows the more I think it is Mme Berard too - the intro date of 1870 makes sense also. The original plant , which is still growing in the middle of a Japanese quince thicket, was probably planted by my DH's grandfather or great grandfather. As I get the really old roses in our garden identified, I have realized that they are all roses which were popular and very much in commerce when our house was first built in 1905 and the following decades. I think they just went down to the local nursery (interestingly, the West End Nursery, said to be the oldest still operating nursery in California, is nearby) and bought what was in stock. Imagine going to your local nursery and casually picking up Dawson's Apple Blossom (1890), Cl American Beauty, Le Vesuve, Anna Olivier, Lamarque, and Duchesse de Brabant! This continued through the 1930s, 40s, and 50s - roses that I have identified in our garden which were planted then are also ones which were really popular at the time, such as Peace, Margo Koster, Duet, and Sutter's Gold.

Jackie


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I am growing Madame Berard but I wouldn't quite have recognized it from the photos. It has that wonderful color that a friend calls "lingerie", sort of a pearly flesh color. The canes are purplish. When I first planted Madame B. it climbed quite well. Then it had die back. Since I cut that back it's been smallish. You should bring a bloom to the Celebration and ask Gregg. I would be so thrilled to move into a home with these interesting mysteries.


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If I have blooms when the Celebration is on (which I have hopes of, since the baby plant is in full sun), I will definitely bring one. The buds on mine are pink, but the open blooms are buff/pale gold.

More pics coming...

Jackie


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My two cents worth (thank you, floridarose). It does not leap out to me as Mme. Berard (mine is from Vintage). Mme Berard is thornless, which for some reason HMF omitted to say. I searched and searched mine and only could find three prickles on one old cane. Leaves all have tiny hooks on the backs though :). Flowers do not seem so tightly petalled and most retain a shallow cup shape until petals drop. If they fully open at all, they often show a tight boss of stamens. The color on petal reverses is always distinctly different. Foliage is matte, as you can see, and new canes have a dark plum color. The rose forms crabapple sized russet hips in abundance. In my garden it has some blackspot and mildew. Your picture of the bud does not look right to me either... Last picture is what madame typically looks like in late fall :)

Masha

 photo herriot2-2_zpse0885714.jpg

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 photo herriot2-7_zps343dd268.jpg

 photo herriot2-11_zpse3fcd710.jpg

 photo herriot2-10_zps2bbf2b12.jpg

 photo herriot2-6_zpsf6a76a38.jpg

 photo herriot2-5_zps9b537600.jpg

 photo herriot2-4_zpsd890271b.jpg

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This post was edited by mashamcl on Sun, Apr 6, 14 at 12:17


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Masha - thank you so much for all of the great pics - especially the leaves, prickle & bush shots as well as close ups of the blooms. Those are frequently lacking on HMF, although someone had posted a pic of a hip.

I will wait until my new bush gets older to try and compare all of the parts - tea roses are so notorious about changing their looks when they mature.

They say that Mme Berard and Adam have been mixed up in commerce in the US, so that only one of them is still in commerce - maybe my rose is the other one? How fun to try and find out!

Jackie


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Lovely story. It reminds me of a "rose thriller" movie, with lots of plot twists :)


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Looks like one I saw at the Ringling rose garden I will go see tomorrow and take pics for you


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Looks like one I saw at the Ringling rose garden I will go see tomorrow and take pics for you


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Another plot twist on the mystery of the old rose growing inside of my quince bush -

Yesterday my DH and I were over at my SIL's house for Easter dinner. Of course, we had to walk around her extensive garden. I came around a corner, and almost fell over. I had completely forgotten that many years ago I had given her a rooted cutting of this very rose. It is now a mature bush, about 6 ft by 6 ft, but only 1-2 ft high except where it hits the trellis wall under their porch. The two plants I have are (1) a very young baby rooted cutting, and (2) the ancient original one which is clinging to life in the dark, and putting out 3 - 4 blooms through the edge of a hedge. So, of course I had no idea what a mature specimen of this rose would look like, but I must admit I was surprised. It looks awfully robust to be a tea rose - what do you think? It is definitely the same rose as the one I have, and I do remember giving it to her, and where she had planted it. Here is a pic:


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Here is a close up of a bloom on my SIL's plant - looks just like the blooms on my baby one. My old old one has blooms like this, but they fade to a buff color (next pic).

Jackie


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Last pic for now - I just took this of a bloom on my ancient one inside of the quince (you can see a quince blossom to prove it!). It has faded to buff, as I said.

Jackie


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Jackie, could your rose be an early hybrid tea of some kind? Carol


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RE: ID this very old rose?

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 19:42

There are others here who are far more knowledgeable about Teas than I am, but I, too, saw a resemblance between the flowers of your rose and 'Gloire de Dijon'. If it's not actually that rose, perhaps it's a descendant of it -- and using the lineage feature on HelpMeFind, I saw quite a few. I also realize that others recognized as "Dijon Teas" may not show up this way, if their ancestry wasn't known or wasn't posted on HelpMeFind showing ancestry to GdD.

In any case, one I saw that seemed similar is ‘Elie Beauvilain’. See its page on HelpMeFind in the link below.

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Elie Beauvilain' at HelpMeFind


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Christopher, it's funny you should follow that line of detection. I was traveling along the same roads. Those blossoms resemble Gloire to my eye, too, but the plant doesn't match. The form doesn't seem quite "tea," so I started researching old hybrid teas, looking for lineage that might include Gloire.

Jackie, how does your SIL prune her rose? Does hers rebloom?

Carol


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RE: ID this very old rose?

Christopher - thanks - good guess. Mine is a lighter pink so far, but of course that may change over time. So, it may be Elie Beauvilain. I can't wait until I have a mature bush to see what it does.

Carol, I asked my SIL, and she said it re-blooms all Summer and into the Fall. They live in Novato, and it is very hot & dry there in the Summer, and it gets lots of sun where it is planted. They do not prune it much - take out dead wood, crossing canes, etc. They said that theirs seem to have that sprawling habit naturally. Of course, I noticed that when it touched the trelis under the porch it went straight up, so I would guess it could be trained as a climber.

My baby one is planted in full sun next to a fence, so it can sprawl or climb as it sees fit.

Here is another picture of my SIL's, showing the robust strong new growth. Amazing red prickles, too.

Jackie

Jackie


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When I went to look at my new one today several of the blooms had produced pink petals in the middle. I thought it might be a clue - here is a pic.

One thing, my rose is much lighter than most of the pictures on HMF of the roses which have been suggested so far. When it is pink it is a pale pink, and when it is buff it is a pale buff, and the blooms in this pic which have pink in the middle are almost white. I know tea roses have variable colored blooms, but sometimes I wish they didn't!

Jackie


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Resurrecting this thread because today I found out (at the Celebration of Old Roses) who this rose really is! So, this will be my last entry on this subject.

It is a funny story, because my original rose is growing in deep shade inside & next to various bushes. Of course, this means it did not grow anything like its "normal" size, shape, or habit. I, and many others, assumed it was a tea rose because of the gorgeous very very double blooms.

Well, it turns out it is 'Awakening', a more double sport of New Dawn which was introduced in 1935 (and probably planted in my garden around that time). As soon as that was suggested, its similarity to New Dawn was obvious. I should have figured out that it was not a tea rose when I saw the mature specimen in my SIL's garden (pic above). It is quite robust, and incredibly thorny. Of course, this makes total sense since it is a winchurana hybrid.

So, not an "old rose" at all, although I do think it was planted in my garden about 80 years ago. I am going to keep the rooted cutting I have growing, but I will be sure to tie it up to grow along the fence - I think it will need some serious training (thinking of how it is related to Sombreuil....). My SIL says it is healthy w/o being sprayed, and blooms all of the time, so I am happy.

Jackie


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Wait -- 'Awakening' is a Czech rose, introduced into the UK by Peter Beales in 1990. HMF says Hortico had it in Canada in 1992. But if your rose is older than that, it does not seem likely to be 'Awakening'. I remember when Beales first announced it, and it was quite unknown in the US before that.


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I loved reading this thread … Jackie, it looks like you may still have some work to do to find the real ID of your beautiful rose. Happy hunting ….

Tricia


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I do hope you discover what this rose is! It's lovely.


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Mme. Charles, perhaps?

Here is a link that might be useful: Mme.Charles


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I'm skeptical about it being 'Awakening', since I have never seen a bloom of it that could by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as "buff" in color. The petal configuration doesn't look right for 'Awakening' either.


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Oh, goody - I like having mysteries! Re the buff color - it turns out it ONLY does that in dark shade, where my original one is. The mature one growing in the sun does not do that - it blooms fade to white, not buff. So, trospero, I'll bet you have never seen blooms of Awakening which have grown in full shade. Re the petal configuration, it changes constantly - I will post some more pics of the one at my SIL's house.

I understand the timing issue re Awakening, but if a rose sports once, why can it not sport the same way in another location? I am ignorant - don't know the odds, but I have heard of that happening.

Do any of you think it is New Dawn? I ask because 2 people at the Celebration of Roses told me "it looks similar to New Dawn, but it is NOT New Dawn"..

I have learned over the years that the old mystery roses which were planted in my garden by my DH's ancestors were popular roses when they were planted. They got them, I am told, at the West End Nursery in San Rafael (which turns out to be the oldest still operating nursery in California). My point is, New Dawn is just the sort of rose they would have planted, and perhaps it sported to Awakening just like the Czech one did?

Here is another pic from my SIL's one -

Jackie


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Jackie, you mentioned at the beginning of the post that your roses were planted over the last 100 yrs. That means you are identifying roses that were popular from 1914 through __? Just trying to narrow down the time frame for alibis, armchair detective style. :-) Carol


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Remembering that there was another double sport of New Dawn, I began looking on HMF. That other sport is Blossomtime, introduced around 1950 so still too early. Since I was on HMF, I also looked up Awakening. It was discovered in Czechoslovakia in 1935. Maybe there is a way it could be Awakening. If so, it will be an interesting story.

Cath


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It is not New Dawn. I would recognize that one. I grow Dr. Van Fleet, and they look the same. Also, the foliage is wrong for that group, so I doubt it's Awakening either.
Jill


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Carol - our house was purchased new in 1905 by my DH's great grandfather. He gardened extensively, as did his son,who owned the house with his wife from about 1915 to 1960. HIS son (my DH's father) took over the gardening from about 1965 to 1989 when we moved in. All of them planted roses. So, that is a pretty long time period.

Because this rose was/is literally growing inside of a Japanese quince thicket, and is near 2 other very old roses, I am guessing it was planted by my DH's grandfather.

Jackie


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