Return to the Antique Roses Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Posted by landperson 9 (My Page) on
Mon, Apr 25, 11 at 11:52

I spent a wonderful afternoon with my sister and brother-in-law yesterday. They have a wonderful 8-year old multiple planting of White Sparrieshoops that sit slightly down the slope from their house and just outside a long expanse of window. These are all own root roses and nothing else has been planted where they are (in very deep and amended holes dug into a mountainside), but this year there are pink buds coming up on what look like suckers coming up near the base of two of them.

Upon coming home and doing a bit of research I see that White Sparrieshoop is a sport of Sparrieshoop. So, my question is, are these probably/possibly reversions to the original? My sister commented that the new opening blooms looked a lot like some Poulsen roses she had admired, and I also noted that Else Poulson is a parent of Sparrieshoop, so in my personal set of (very often totally wrong) assumptions, I am thinking what they are seeing are reversions, but....

What do you think?

Susan


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Hi Susan, yes, they are likely reversions to the original. I have been told by a long-time nurseryman who used to be here to expect sports to revert to the original approximately 30% of the time. He had a number of sports and reversions to his credit, due to the large number of plants he raised. Sports occur randomly and generally not very repeatable. Reversions happen much more frequently, again, approximately 30% of the time, particularly with unstable sports. My Careless Love "reverted" to Mrs. Charles Bell very frequently. Hocus Pocus and Abracadabra, the two striped florist roses from Kordes, are very well known for being quite unstable, like Careless Love, which is why nurseries who offer them, sell them with the disclaimer they can't guarantee the roses will continue to be true to name. There is no way to know if it will be the sport until it flowers. There are others, though, which remain stable seemingly forever. It all depends upon the genetic stability of the sport. Red Radiance remains virtually perfectly stable, as does Pink Radiance. Mrs. Charles Bell (Shell Pink Radiance) sports more often and Careless Love (Striped Radiance) reverts constantly. Kim


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

The cemetery's white Sparrieshoop does occasionally revert to pink. We also see Mrs. Charles Bell sport to Radiance - our New Dawn sometimes repeats, and sometimes behaves more like Dr. Van Fleet and blooms only once - our Quatre Saisson Blanc Mousseux used to throw a cane that was Autumn Damask, a great "show and tell" for our tours. Mme Joseph Schwartz has a cane with very pink flowers on it right now. Thanks, Kim, for the info that resersions are more common than sports - makes sense, based on observation.
Anita


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

My Mme. Joseph Schwartz reverts to pink blooms fairly often, once even to a bloom that was a much deeper pink than Duchesse de Brabant. I think it's fun when it want to be like "mom".

Ingrid


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

C O O L ! ! !

So, if I were to take cuttings from the parts of the plant that are coming up and blooming pink, I might well be able to add an original Sparrieshoop to my own collection, right?

Whoopee.
This is so much fun.

Susan


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Absolutely, Susan! THAT is how it's done! I found a solid pink sport on Festival Fanfare and it is registered as Festival Pink. A parallel sport was discovered in Britain on Fred Loads (sport parent of Festival Fanfare)and introduced as Loads of Pink. My Julia's Rose sported, losing a gene for pink, hence Golden Julia. Great News lost the gene to saturate the color, so it went from pansy purple to lavender. That was Great News Sport.

This nurseryman stated that fully 30% of his Grandmother's Hat plants "reverted" to Larry Daniels, which was the supporting evidence for his statement that Grandmother's Hat is a sport of an old commercial variety. We've been looking for her identification, when we should probably be trying to identify Larry Daniels or Tina Marie instead. That's why I sent all of the variants to The Netherlands last year for propagation, in hopes some garden there has the "original" and can finally put a proper identity to her.

Most often, sports go unnoticed unless the gardener really pays attention. Much of the time, you only really notice them if you grow multiples of the same rose. It increases your chances of sports occurring as well as making it easier to SEE them when they do.

Stripes and color changes are quite dramatic, but the most dramatic one I am familiar with is the Green Rose Reversion. Historically, it has been stated the Green Rose occurred as a sport of Old Blush. There was no photographic evidence of it, nor had anyone experienced the reversion until a customer gave Ralph Moore pieces of her Green Rose which flowered with nearly petals instead of leaves. Propagating that in extreme heat in the greenhouses, they were able to encourage it to finally revert, at least partially, to what you see below. Vintage has long carried a variant of Green Rose whose petals are much more bronze than traditional plants exhibit. Perhaps, that is a partial reversion? If you browse the photos of Green Rose on HMF, you can see several examples of the more bronze flowers some plants have thrown. They could very likely be partial reversions. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Green Rose Reversion on HMF


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

  • Posted by ffff Calif. 9 (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 25, 11 at 18:36

Sorry to hear that about Grandmother's Hat, I like it better than Larry Daniels, and was planning on trying it as breeding stock.


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

It is good to know there is now a name for the pink sport of Festival Fanfare. I saw Festival Fanfare sporting pink at the Heritage and took a picture of it.

Masha

Here is a link that might be useful: Festival Pink


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

I've added a picture of the pink blossoms on the new suckers on the White Sparrieshoop

Here is a link that might be useful: Reversion to Sparrieshoop?


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

ffff, from experience, you'll find using Grandmother's Hat's pollen better than as seed parent. Though she can set seed, there aren't many hips and few seed. Ralph Moore raised a "climbing mini" from 1-72-1 and Grandmother's Hat. I've raised several seedlings using her pollen on minis, and even though she's very good here, her babies haven't been as nice. I do believe there are good things in there to be mined out.

One of the seedlings has exactly the same color and petal texture, even the same number of petals and flower size as Grandmother's Hat, but without her fragrance. Another has been very healthy and productive. Even has a fairly good fragrance. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Grandmother's Hat seedlings on HMF


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

I too have had a part of my 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' revert to 'Quatre Saisons', which in any case is growing right beside it and useful for comparison. It is fun when you find these things.
Melissa


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Yes, Melissa, it is an adventure discovering sports. I wrote of it about sixteen years ago. It's printed on Help Me Find at the link below. It's particularly fun when the sport or reversion you discover is something known, but not generally available. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses as a Sport


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Would someone mind looking at the picture of the pink blooms that I posted about 4 posts back and telling me whether you think it looks like a "real" Sparrieshoop? My theory seems sound, but I don't have one to compare it to. Mine is a White.

Thanks


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Susan, that looks far better than any Sparrieshoop or White Sparrieshoop I've ever grown. In Newhall, it was addicted to mildew. If it was possible to contract it, both did and appeared proud to have it. Yours looks great. Kim


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Thanks, Kim.
Susan


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

You're welcome Susan! How are your Cardinal Hume cuttings doing? I potted a bunch of IXLR to use for tree roses and they all seem to be rooting, even with the loss of the cooler weather. Kim


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

I think they are coming along pretty well. Looking at the picture I see that they look just about the way they did when I first put them in the bucket, but I can assure you that now they have all brand new and healthy looking leaves.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cardinal Hume rootings


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Kim -- So that Carlin's Rhythm and GramHat cross is a single pink? Very nice. It has rooted well here, so we'll have it out of the greenhouse, soon. :-)

We need to find many homes for "Ladyfingers." It rooted 100%
YIKES!

jERI


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Hi Jeri, no, the Carlin's Rhythm X Grandmother's Hat I gave you cuttings of is double and dark pink. It's the one in the link below. The single, light pink is seedling #1. You have seedling #2.

Ladyfingers is a very nice rambler which flowers quite well, is healthy and has given repeat bloom here in Encino. For anyone who loves ramblers and wants something rare, contact Jeri!

Susan, so far the cuttings look great! Once they are sure things, you can bud them in the bucket and transplant them in winter. You're gonna have fun! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Carlin's Rhythm X Gram's Hat seedling #2 on HMF


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

So, Kim, just for practice sake, what would the best bets be for learning how to bud. I have never done it, and I'd like to succeed, so I don't want to start with anything that is going to make me give it up as just too hard. Are there roses which will take more easily than others to the budding?

And, by the way, your Purple Buttons is looking promising these days. She's really really tiny but obviously "making it"; I cannot wait to see her bloom.

Susan


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Hi Susan, might you have any suckers of Dr. Huey sprouting from under any of your roses? Or, might you have some long whips of any other climbing or bush rose you're going to prune off anyway? The two things you want to practice before tackling the "good stuff" are lifting the bark from the cambium layer without going through it into the pith and removing the growth buds with cambium on them without a slice of pith. If you grab your budding knife, razor blade or whatever you're going to use and then start performing surgery on rubbish to practice, it'll help you determine when the sap is sufficiently flowing so the bark slips (separates) from the pith easily and how to do the operations without destroying the cambium. That's the bright green, juicy layer between the bark and the pith. It's the circulatory system of the plant and the tissue that differentiates, calluses and either becomes roots when rooting or knits the bud to the stock.

I don't know of any which are more successful being budded, but if you start with larger buds, they're generally easier to hold on to. You want to match the width of the bud to the width of the stock. Putting a large HT bud on an eyebrow pencil gauge stock won't work. The curve of the bud has to fit the curve of the stock for best results. With practice, you'll find you can do all the things everyone tells you won't work, but to start out, doing those which are most likely to succeed will feed your confidence until you feel comfortable experimenting. I always try to stack the deck in favor of success first so you'll gain that confidence quickly and begin doing all the "Dr. Moreau" stuff when you feel ready.

If your cuttings are thinner, look around for canes of those you might want to replicate and see what you can find that pretty much matches the same gauge or thickness. You'll be surprised how small a bud you can use and have it work. You can also try grafting pieces of stem to them as that also works. That's how mini trees are made as they have such small buds, using a piece of stem with buds is much faster, easier and has greater chances of success. Sequoia used to graft the stem pieces to the stocks then root them under mist so all the operations were accomplished at one time and all growth and knitting occurred simultaneously. It was fascinating to a newbie as I was when Ralph showed that to me. Feel free to play with Purple Buttons if you'd like. I'm glad she's working for you. I love the scent and color of that one. Thanks. Kim


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Thanks Kim. It looks like it's taking hold well, so I'll look forward to seeing it.


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Hi Jeri, I'm sorry, I've had brain fade. You have the darker pink seedling, #1, not the light pink single, #2. I like them both and have held on to #1 because of its unusual foliage but the flowers aren't as durable as #2's are and I don't think it will make as good a garden plant. BTW, any idea how the yellow Sally Holmes seedling cuttings are doing? Thanks. Kim


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Kim, the news on the YSH cuttings isn't as good. ONE looks to be rooted, but I don't hold out much hope for the others. Clay was worried about them from the beginning, because they were such hefty cuttings. We never do as well with those, for whatever reason.

Jeri


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Thanks Jeri, no problem. One is all you need to figure out if it's worth growing in your garden. There are always more if you want them. I can't get a back-hoe in back to dig the seedling out anyway! Kim


 o
RE: can I pick your brains about Sports and Reversions?

Great. The one that is rooted looks good. We have a passle of things out there to pot up, next week, when the Heritage Roses Groups "Rose Letter" is off our hands.

I may declare a celebration!

Jeri


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Antique Roses Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here