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Sport? From old unknown...

Posted by petra 8 (My Page) on
Thu, Apr 17, 14 at 12:01

I am excited! I've read about rose sports before, but none of the roses have ever produced one til now. :o)

The mother plant originated at an old homestead or cemetery in Oregon. Dawn, an expert rose rustler who used to post here, sent me rooted cutting probably about a decade ago.

She wasn't sure what rose this is, other than being an antique. Both cuttings have since grown into huge roses. They are very fragrant, sort of an old-fashioned rosy fragrance, with long canes. The sport is as fragrant as the mother plant and seems to be very similar, except it is a lipstick red instead of a faded pink, and the leaves appear to be slightly lighter and larger. There is only one cane of the sport, so I should probably try to root some of it?

Here are the photos:

Original mother plant:

Sport:


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Maybe Baronne Prevost and sport? Does your rose look like a hybrid perpetual? What a magical surprise! Do you know where in OR Dawn rustled? Carol


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Cool!
(I thought HP when I saw the photo too. Couldn't venture a guess as to the variety, though.)
Melissa


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

It does look like it could be a hybrid perpetual, you are right! The form is similar to Baronne Prevost, but the color is much paler. The sport has a much nicer color, in my opinion. I initially thought maybe a Moss Rose, like Crested Moss or Salet, but the petals are not "mossy" enough.

Dawn and her husband rode their motorcycle all over Oregon and also WA State, if I remember correctly. There were/are lots of old homesteads and cemeteries with antique roses. She also sent me what turned out to be climbing fairie and another beautiful unknown house-eater type rose. Sure wish she still posted here so she could see her babies all grown up. :o)


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Relatively thornless (very light smattering), with a lax/arching growth habit if unsupported, once-blooming? Then it is likely the commonly found west coast drifter, "Charles Lawson", whose identity is generally accepted in the realm of found roses, but has never been positively, indisputably ID'd. (which is why I use double quotes when speaking about it) It is a non-remontant Bourbon hybrid of unknown origin. There isn't an old cemetery on the west coast that doesn't (usually) have at least one specimen of it in its perimeter. Mine came from the Salem area.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chuck the Drifter on HMF


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

trospero, I googled further and found a photo on Paul Barden's site which is just about identical, so I think you nailed it! The description you linked to describes it as well, it does ball in wet weather and the one that is not planted in full sun does very well in a semi-shady area. And it does only bloom in spring, but for at least a couple of months.Thank you for the ID!!

Edited because I forgot to ask, (and sorry if this is an ignorant question) if I root the sport, will it stay the same or do sports usually revert back to the mother plant?

This post was edited by petra on Thu, Apr 17, 14 at 15:14


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

That can vary greatly depending upon the stability of the sport. Some are totally unstable, such as many of the striped HTs running around out there and the infamous Koster polyantha line. Some appear virtually rock solid because they seldom revert, but it is common for roughly 30% of the plants propagated from a mutation to revert back to the original version. You might find it interesting to look at the offspring for Prevost to see if any of them resemble your sport. You could find it is a repeat of something already recorded. Wouldn't it be neat to have names for both of them? Kim


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Kim, thanks for that info, it would indeed be nice to have names for both. I wonder if propagating a mutation several times from each successive offspring would stabilize the plant. Lots of googling to do!


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

You're welcome! It might, or it might not stabilize it. That would depend upon how strong "the genetic fabric" is to begin with. Arena Roses had a Poulsen landscape poly/shrub they intended to introduce. The thing was so genetically unstable, no two plants had the same color nor even pattern blooms. Some were red, some were orange, some were striped and each plant threw some of each in varying degrees. Syl said to me while we were looking at it in the fields it was a very nice plant, grew and propagated easily and well, but he couldn't sell it as he couldn't advertise it as any particular color because there was no way to know what the color would be, it was so unstable. Many sources have sold, then dumped, quite a few striped sports because of the headaches involved when they don't stripe. Yours may, or may not stabilize. You'll have to try it and see. Good luck! Kim


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Petra, just as a chuckle, I thought I'd mention that "trospero" above is indeed Paul Barden. I hope the color does stabilize for you on that sport; I like the sport color better too. My 'Heritage' sported last summer to a creamy white. I got one cutting to root from that branch, and I am hoping the blooms from it are the white, too. Very fun stuff. :) Gean


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Thanks Kim, I guess there's only one way to find out then. :o) I am pretty bad at propagating, but I will try and try again.

Gean, I had no idea! Thanks for letting me know. And now I know how trospero was able to ID this rose so easily. :o) I'll certainly try my darndest to root the sport. And I am so grateful I can discuss this here, hubby's eyes glazed over when I mentioned THE SPORT yet again.

Creamy white Heritage, that sounds very pretty. Was it fragrant too? Fingers crossed it stabilizes for you. Maybe David Austin will purchase it and you'll make a tidy sum. Heritage is a bloom machine here, last frost to first. I'd love to have a white version of it.


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Petra,
I think you just found a name for your sport! 'Hubby's Eye's Glazed Over'!!


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Or how about the acronym "HEGO"! That's probably not taken yet. :o)


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Petra, I'm so glad your rose was identified...even if the identity of the identity isn't 100% certain. Are you here in OR, too? Once I complete my garden re-re-redesign, I might attempt to beg a cutting. I've got fingers crossed for your sport! Please keep us updated. "Sports" means something completely different to rose lovers. I think we should be gifted with our own television network. ESPN: Eglantines, Species, Perpetuals and Noisettes. Carol


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Gean,

Your white sport of Heritage has been introduced into commerce in the past. The rose was introduced in Canada and marketed as Rose-Marie by Valderose Gardens. It is no longer in commerce, at least in Canada to my knowledge, but there are still many people who grow it and like it. It is apparently a fairly stable sport as well.

Cheers, Rick

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose-Marie on HMF


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Portland, we are currently in the TX Hill Country but are contemplating OR or WA in a few years. We lived in Tacoma for 5 years and I love the weather. It will be hard to leave the garden and all the roses, but with the toll the current drought has taken, we are down to about half of what we had anyway, .


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

hi, Rick,
Thank you for the link and information! Gean


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Petra,

The Hill Country--bluebonnets along the highway. I miss the wildflowers. Yes, the weather is as dry in parts of TX as it is in California, I believe. I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your roses! I hope your newly identified OR rose is serving you well. Let me know if you move back out to the PNW. We can swap stories and cuttings. :-)

Carol


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Carol, I will bring buckets of cuttings when we move and will gladly share with you. :o) The wildflowers have been few and far between because of the drought. A couple years ago we actually had a fairly wet winter and spring, so everything was glorious. This year, there aren't many in our area, but have been told by several people there are some impressive displays in other areas. These pics are from a couple years ago:

And just to keep the focus on roses, a photo of Viking Queen which - amazingly - does really well in this heat.


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

  • Posted by ffff Calif. 9 (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 22, 14 at 20:58

Hey! I know that rose pretty well (grow it as "Dr. Peck's," since mine was found in the SF Bay Area). It has very close affinities to the hybrid centifolia, Gaspard Monge, and to the gallica, Rose de la Maitre-Ecole. While both of those are pinker roses than "Charles Lawson" (or whatever its correct name is), I've never heard of a sport like what you've shown. I do think you have a new rose on your hands, and quite a nice one from the look of it!


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Petra, lovely photos of the Hill Country wildflowers (and horses and roses)! Thank you. I carry fond memories of those seas of bluebonnets. OR is also home to lupines, but I mostly see them around Mt. Hood, and at the risk of offending the lovely little purple flowers, I must say that they pale in comparison to the heavenly blue ones. I wish we could send some of our Portland spring rain to all the places around the country which are experiencing droughts. We may be in the middle of the wettest spring on record. I hope I amended my soil adequately so my garden doesn't suffocate in the wet clay. I'm so glad ffff brought your thread back to the top of the list. I'd been meaning to check in. Carol


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

ffff, I am not familiar with either of the ones you mentioned, so looked them up. They do look very similar to the Lawson or Peck.

I like the sport flowers better than the original, so far. We had about half an inch of rain on the weekend and the sport open flowers and buds were just fine, while the mother plant buds and flowers balled and are pretty much ruined. The color also stays true until it wilts. I sure hope it's easy to root!

Carol, enjoy the wet weather, much preferable to this drought in my opinion. There is a good chance El Nino might take over this year and change our weather pattern back to much more precipitation, sure would be great. Ah, Mount Hood, we visited a couple times while living in WA State. Gorgeous, lots of wildflowers and lovely cool temps. :o)


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

  • Posted by ffff Calif. 9 (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 24, 14 at 18:43

Petra said, "I sure hope it's easy to root! "

I've got a confession to make. One day at SJHRG, "Dr. Peck's" had just been pruned. I scooped up an arm full, since I think it's a much rarer rose than it deserves to be. A year or so later, several rooted specimens randomly showed up back at SJHRG, in all manner of ugly containers, where they were put into much better pots and given new homes. Sorry Jill, I'll use better pots next time!

Anyway, I think you can expect a high success rate, I found it struck very easily.


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

ffff, thanks for that encouraging info! I stink at rooting/keeping the cuttings alive, so I need all the help I can get. 2 cuttings, so far. Fingers crossed..


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

  • Posted by ffff Calif. 9 (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 27, 14 at 15:11

An afterthought -- I realized that my yard may be the only place in the world where two of those three roses grow next to each other, so here's a pic of Gaspard Monge in the foreground, with "Dr. Peck's" behind it. They're hard to distinguish, especially when out of bloom, but Monge's foliage isn't quite as blue green as Peck's, and the plant is slightly smaller. Rose de la Maitre-Ecole has flowers a bit different from either, and is usually a bit thornier, but has the same growing habit and distinctive foliage. They all even smell fairly similar.

I'm just throwing this trivia out there, in case anyone else is confused by the origins of these roses. I'm not sure whether anyone but a geneticist can find definitive answers, though.


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

^^ Response deleted because I read your post too fast and missed your point! But I still wouldn't mind an ID for the other unknown below if anyone knows what it is. :o)

This post was edited by petra on Tue, Apr 29, 14 at 11:37


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 29, 14 at 0:45

ffff, are you referring to Dr. Peck's 12th Avenue Smoothie when you refer to Dr. Peck? I recently purchased that rose from the San Jose Heritage Rose harden. The specimen at the Sacramento Historical Cemetery garden is enormous. I had no idea the rose was a climber!

Diane


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

  • Posted by ffff Calif. 9 (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 29, 14 at 13:45

fogrose: I am indeed referring to "Dr. Peck's 12th Avenue Smoothie," I'm just too lazy to type all that out. Your plant is almost certainly one that I propagated, showing what a small world it is WRT rare roses.

Its natural state is arching, but it has some climbing equipment: hooked rachis (the central stem from which the leaflets grow). Every European rose I grow except for a couple of cinnamon roses (majalis and pendulina) have that. They're clearly not required for a climber, since most chinensis roses, climbing or not, don't have those, but if you wanted to try training it, it might be possible, and the mostly smooth canes would make the attempt relatively painless.


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

It looks like a lovely rose. It would be very nice if someone familiar with it would please provide more information about it to HMF. There is no mention of scent, size, lack of prickles, repeat, etc. Discussing all that here is fine, but it quickly gets lost in the pile. Adding that information to either the Comments section (not comments for a particular photo, but the actual Comments section where it's more likely to be found) documents it and should probably help you get the rose spread around more. Thanks. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Peck's


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

  • Posted by ffff Calif. 9 (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 29, 14 at 18:06

There had been some discussion on the pages for Charles Lawson and Gaspard Monge, but most comparison of them was on a webpage of mine which disappeared a couple of years ago. I've put a shortened version of it on the page for "Dr. Peck's 12th Avenue Smoothie."

SJHRG received its "Dr. Peck's" and "Vacaville Clone" as roses found in Oakland and Vacaville CA. They also got the same rose as Charles Lawson, but I don't know from where/whom. The ones I propagated were from the found rose in the once-blooming section, not the "Charles Lawson" amongst the HPs.


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RE: Sport? From old unknown...

Thank you! That helps a LOT! Kim


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