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| She's been in the ground since last year and is very healthy and fast-growing, and is now beginning to bloom. I know the first blooms are not the best but they're actually not that different from what's shown in HMF. This rose has been praised here in the past but now I wonder whether I shouldn't have tried to find a more spectacular tea. I should know better by now but still seem to make mistakes in the roses I choose. Very frustrating! Ingrid |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Thu, Apr 3, 14 at 14:30
| The bush pictures on HMF look like a nice, upright, white (with pink highlights) tea rose to me - delicate & elegant, like most tea roses. The individual blooms do not tend to be "spectacular" with teas. Instead, they are lovely in a quiet, subtle way. It is the overall effect of a mature bush in the garden that is spectacular. Yours is a baby - I would wait until it is at least 3-4 years old before judging it. HMF says it can be grown as a climber in warm climates - keep that in mind if it throws out any long canes - it might like a trellis. Jackie |
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| If it is the same rose in commerce as the one that used to be called La Biche, then I grew it at one time. Bought it from The Antique Rose Emporium in Texas in the early to mid 1990s. Arrived as a very healthy-looking plant as is usual from ARE, but quickly developed a permanent horrible case of mildew. I know it bloomed, however not much, and the flowers were not memorable. It grew backwards and died within 2 years. Not one I would try again for my garden conditions. Other roses I bought at the same time from ARE took off like gangbusters (with the exception of Ducher which was also unimpressive and sickly and Cl. Perle des Jardins which limped along for about a decade but wasn't sicly just blah). Melissa |
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| Jackie, that's another worrisome aspect, that it's already exhibiting the qualities of a climber, i.e. fewer but longer canes, in an area where I need a bush, to fit in with the other roses in Tea Row. I know most teas don't have spectacular flowers but compared to Mme. Joseph Schwartz or Duchesse de Brabant, for instance, this one just seems to lack character. Melissa, I don't know whether this is the same rose as La Biche, but so far not a speck of mildew even though many other roses in my gardens have that to some degree, and it seems to be very healthy in every way so far. I'm going to adopt a wait and see attitude since I'm not about to remove a healthy rose that wants to bloom. Those are qualities that I've really learned to treasure in my garden. Ingrid |
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- Posted by poorbutroserich Nashville (My Page) on Thu, Apr 3, 14 at 20:22
| Keep her! I was thinking today that she is an underrated rose for sure! She is quiet in a subtle elegant way, as Jackie said. The fragrance is very nice and she blooms all summer. No dieback here at all. No disease. Simple, elegant, restrained. I think you will grow to love her. Remember last summer we spoke about frequent trimming? That helps with size. Give her some more time? Susan |
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- Posted by patricia43 z8 AL (My Page) on Thu, Apr 3, 14 at 20:53
| I think you have Mlle de Sombreuil aka Colonial White, not La Biche. Are they canes thick and stiff? |
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| The 'Mlle de Sombreuil' is the one that's likely aka 'La Biche'. The other one, "Sombreuil", is the thorny climber, probably related to 'New Dawn'. :-) ~Christopher |
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| Yes, Christopher is right, it's La Biche; the other one has more showy flowers with lots of petals, but also many more thorns. Mine so far is not very thorny. Susan, I'm glad you reminded me about cutting back; that's what I'll do, although gently since it's a young plant. I'm glad yours also has no disease. Subtle, quiet elegance does not sound bad at all, and the color is just right between Mrs. B.R. Cant and Wm. R. Richardson. Thanks so much all of you for your support. I feel much better about this rose now. I counted her buds earlier, 22 in all, not bad for a rose bought as a band and in the ground about a year. Ingrid |
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- Posted by cemeteryrose USDA 9/Sunset 14 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 2:10
| I have totally opposite advice about this rose. Don't touch those long canes! We grow it in the cemetery and I simply adore it for its frequent bloom and lovely shape. The flowers aren't spectacular but the plant as a whole is stellar. I think of the long canes on a tea like the long legs on a colt or big paws on a puppy. The rest of the plant will grow up to fit those early long canes, given a chance. I see no sign of this rose being a climber for us - just a nice wide tea rose. Miriam Wilkins wrote about not pruning old roses for the first three years, and that makes sense to me, at least for Teas and Chinas. In the Sacramento cemetery, our initial roses weren't pruned for a few years because the volunteers weren't organized to do that. We are glad now that the roses got a chance to establish and build. |
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- Posted by mendocino_rose z8 N CA. (My Page) on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 8:31
| I agree with Anita. I am in love with the plant that is growing in the Friends of Vintage Roses garden. It's not spectacular but it is lovely and blooms all the time. I wish I had one. |
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- Posted by poorbutroserich (My Page) on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 14:15
| Whoops. Perhaps I didn't explain. I trim this rose--never ever do I prune it. Trimming keeps it shapely. I think it a bit too. I'm talking inches here. And it could (likely does) grow completely different out there in the Wild West! Susan. Glad you are keeping her. After all, she did drink blood to save her father's life. |
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| I agree with Anita, as well. I would not touch this rose with pruning shears, until it matured. And, FWIW, this rose is not 'La Biche.' It is a rose that was found by Phillip Robinson, who was never satisfied with the identification as 'La Biche.' It was found again, later, and confirmed as the real 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.' The real 'La Biche' is probably lost. :-( I had this rose, and loved it, in my coastal garden, tho it was in a bad location. I eventually lost it. If I had space and water, I would grow it again. (See below) Jeri |
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- Posted by PortlandMysteryRose 8 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 15:37
| Ingrid, I'd grow this tea if I could grow it well here. I love the story behind it, I love that it was rediscovered, and the photos I've seen of its delicate flowers remind me of Edwardian garden parties. I think you sited this rose well between Mrs. BR and William. I won't go off an a tangent about how I yearn for tea roses. Jeri already reminded me that I'm blessed with many happy OGRs...but oh those teas! Please post photos as your Mlle. matures. I look forward to seeing her in the eye of your camera. Carol |
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| I'm sorry, I meant to say William R. Smith, not Richardson. Jeri, your picture is lovely. I suspect that my rose will also have more beautiful blooms when it's mature. Thank you for the explanation of this rose vis a vis La Biche. The historical underpinnings are always fascinating to me. I will not touch this rose until it has matured and decided how it wants to grow. Even now it's not unsightly, just different. I'll post a picture when most of its buds have opened and then you can see the shape of the plant also. However, I have read in several places that this rose can be grown as a climber, so I suspect it must have some tendency toward that. Carol, I so well understand the longing for roses you can't have. I had to get rid of all my hybrid musks because they thought my garden was their idea of hell, and my moss rose, ditto, and my noisettes. I have one gorgeous photo of a bloom of Mrs. Wood's Lavender Pink Noisette; what an incredibly beautiful rose that must be in the right place. Thanks so much for your valuable feedback. This rose is firmly here to stay and I look forward to seeing it develop into a mature beauty. Ingrid |
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| The rose in commerce in the US as Mlle de Sombreuil was sold under the name La Biche for a while. The rose in commerce in the US as Mlle de Sombreuil is actually a found rose--found by Phillip Robinson. The Huntington thought it was the noisette La Biche, and so a number of nurseries, including Antique Rose Emporium sold it for a time under the name La Biche (now in their catalog as Mlle de Sombreuil). I bought the plant from ARE during the time they called it La Biche. Phillip Robinson didn't agree with the Huntington id, but herein comes a problem. According to him, this rose looked the same as the one he saw grown in France as Mlle de Sombreuil at l'Hay. His identification seems to be quite superficial, and also it seems to have been accepted all too quickly in the US without very much in the way of proof, and what there is, is usually not even provided. Now we have another mess. Yet today in France this identification of the rose in commerce in the US as Mlle de Sombreuil is disputed. Someone expert in tea roses has been able to grow side-by-side the rose grown in Sangerhausen (Germany) as Mlle de Sombreuil, the rose grown at Tete d'Or (France) as Mlle de Sombreuil, the rose grown at l'Hay (France) as Mlle de Sombreul, and the rose grown by Vintage and in commerce in the US as Mlle de Sombreuil. I am speaking here of John Hook, owner of La Rosarie du Desert in France. See both the discussion of this topic on HMF cited below, and the photos of the various clones provided by John Hook, also on HMF, here: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.40215.3&n=81102&tab=36 I found his pictures and brief comments intriguing, so I wrote him privately on HMF and asked for clarification. He wrote me, "Huntingdon La Biche, this was identified in the US as Mlle de Sombrieul from viewing the plant at L'Hay. I can confirm they are not the same." Long-term viewing of the various clones side-by-side is more thorough than simply visiting a foreign garden, seeing a resemblance, and then declaring an identification. He also wrote me that another rose expert in France, Odile Masquelier, believes the Tete d'Or clone is correct. We had some back and forth discussions on rose identification, then he ended with this, "The only thing I can be sure of is that "Huntingdon La Biche" (US mlle de Sombrieul) is not the same as Mlle de Sombrieul (L'Hay)." But that is exactly what Phillip Robinson used as his basis for declaring Huntington La Biche/his found rose was Mlle de Sombreuil--because he thought it matched the rose grown in l'Hay. Well, it doesn't match, according to those with ongoing access to the plant at l'Hay. Melissa |
Here is a link that might be useful: Mlle de Sombreuil comments on HMF
This post was edited by Tessiess on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 17:53
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- Posted by PortlandMysteryRose 8 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 17:33
| Ingrid, I knew what you meant re William. Sometimes I call my husband, daughter or dog by another person's/animal's name. :-) Carol |
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| Thanks Carol, I'm glad it's not only me. After reading the HMF comments about this rose I'm more confused than ever. I have a feeling it will be some time, if ever, before a definitive identification is made of this rose. Meanwhile, neither the rose nor I care greatly, although I'm glad the differentiation between this rose and Sombreuil has been cleared up, although in a rather muddled and unsatisfactory fashion. Ingrid |
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- Posted by PortlandMysteryRose 8 (My Page) on Sat, Apr 5, 14 at 15:05
| Thank you to everyone for the history and the mystery. I'm making notes on my reading list. Roses, history and mystery--always my favorites! Carol |
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| Fascinating information in this thread- I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. |
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| As promised, here is a picture of Mlle. de Sombreuil which shows not only the blooms but also the growth habit; you can see that it has just a few longish canes and a bit of short growth at the bottom. I'll be interested to see whether it produces new canes this year or generates new growth off the existing ones. Either way, since this rose began to open its buds into blooms I've grown quite fond of it and can now see its promise. Thank you all again for the encouragement, support and advice. It made a big difference in regard to my feelings about this rose.
Ingrid |
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- Posted by poorbutroserich nashville (My Page) on Mon, Apr 14, 14 at 20:37
| Ingrid, thanks for the photo! If I can brave the freezing temps expected tomorrow I will take a photo of mine. It looks absolutely NOTHING like yours... Who knows, mine may not be Mlle. de Sombreuil... Mine is a thick, densely foliated bush...do you think yours would do well with a pillar? Are your canes flexible? Susan |
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| Susan, I'd be very interested to see yours, which I presume is much more mature than mine. The canes on mine are flexible but I want very much to grow it as a bush since it's in a long row of other tea rose bushes. Do the flowers on yours at least look similar to mine? Ingrid |
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- Posted by poorbutroserich nashville (My Page) on Tue, Apr 15, 14 at 20:30
| Ingrid, I was running around today trying to get stuff covered for the expected low of 29 and I meant to take a photo for you but I didn't have my phone outside (it rained, snowed, sleeted and the sun shone on and off all day!). Anyway I will get a photo soon. It's not blooming yet but do you remember we discussed this rose last spring when I got it on fortuniana. I thought I was getting the CL (Colonial White version) and you all said it was a tea. And then you all thought it looked like Mlle Sombreuil? Anyway, I am going to post a photo of the bud to this reply and then the next post will be it in flower. And mine is not mature. Just got it last year but it is 5 ft tall. But I irrigate quite a bit... I don't know how to get the photo upright....sorry Susan |
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| 2 year old Sombreuil flowers. Expect no less. |
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| Susan, to me the petals look thicker than Mlle. de Sombreuil, more along the lines of Lynette's beautiful Sombreuil, the climber. Also, I don't remember my Mlle. having the reddish color of the stems that your picture shows. Ingrid |
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