That is interesting... thank you :-)

To put it mildly, it is not very nice to recommend this product, not only for those who actually have dogs, but also to others where that cocoa mulch is placed where friends or neighbors dogs (let alone wild canines) could have access. It doesn't just make them sick, it kills them--cocoa mulch contains theobromine (the same ingredient in chocolate which is so hazardous to dogs but in a more concentrated form).

This whole thread really ought to be deleted.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: U of Illinois, College of Vet School, cocoa mulch warning

Melissa: I'm not recommending this product, I post it AS A WARNING so people don't MULCH WITH IT. Yes, chocolate has health benefits, but also poisonous to dogs, that doesn't mean we ban chocolate.

Where I plan to use it is INSIDE the planting hole to break up clay for drainage. Potassium is best in the planting hole, NOT AT THE SURFACE, with a mobility of 3. After the rose is planted, it's covered with several inches of horse manure/sawdust bedding.

Here are more reasons for NOT USING IT AS MULCH:

One shouldn't overlook the irony that cocoa bean mulch is a great medium for slime molds, which look a lot like dog vomit.

November 17, 2009 by Sheila H

I don't like this mulch at all! Apply it too thick and it's moldy. Once it's wet, it clumps together and it doesn't allow water to seep through it. ... The chocolate smell only lasts a couple of days.

See the link for more comments:

Here is a link that might be useful: Will cocoa mulch kill my dog?

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Apr 8, 13 at 16:27

I don't think this thread should be deleted either, I have a dog and I wouldn't use it for mulch by its self but as a thin-ish layer under the mulch or to mix it in the soil.

Thank you, Jessica, for your fairness. Thank you, Kim, for the info. that it attracts rats. My sole intention is to use it break up the bottom heavy clay layer to improve drainage. If it attracts rats mean it's OK for earthworms.

Cedar mulch is expensive and in huge chunks, I can't mix that stuff into clay. Cedar mulch doesn't lower pH either. Cedar mulch repels insects, as stated by eHow:

"In a study done by the Department of Entomology at North Carolina State University, scientists found that the Argentine ant was less likely to create nests using cypress mulch. The scientists also found that trees surrounded by cedar mulch had fewer ants on them than trees that were surrounded by cypress mulch... Barb Ogg, an educator at the University of Nebraska Cooperative Extension, says that the odor of cedar wood can repel termites. A study done by Mary L. Durea at the University of Florida IFAS Extension makes the same claim. In her study, she found that termites were less likely to eat mulch if it contained a small amount of heartwood red cedar."

My top choice is pine fines, but if the stores don't carry it, I would have to use cocoa mulch to break up clay at the bottom of the hole.

I have the most success fixing clay with pine fines, better than peat moss and coarse sand. The roses with the most pine fines mixed with heavy clay produce many times more blooms, and survive zone 5a winter best.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Apr 8, 13 at 18:11

Strawberry, I'm curious if when comparing NPK values of different materials does the rate of time it takes for it to decomposes matter? Some places I use pine fines on top of the surface as a mulch and it takes at least twice as long as when I use horse manure compost as a mulch to decompose. Should I assume it takes twice as long to release its nutrients?

Strawberry, I would not bury Cocoa Mulch in the ground. If your drainage in your clay isn't all that great, the cocoa hulls may well turn into a hydrogen sulfide slime. Better to keep it ON the soil where the natural fungi it hosts breaks it down with the available oxygen, nitrogen it releases and moisture. I've seen that stuff after it's been under water a while and it is NOT A PRETTY SIGHT! I can easily imagine it becoming a toxic mess buried under ground in saturated soil. Pine bark is mostly cellulose and silica and shouldn't have the slime encouraging activity the cocoa mulch does. Kim

Very good question, subk, it depends on the soil and climate as to where decomposes best? On top or below?

THANK YOU, Kim, for your thoughtfulness & experience. I'm curious to see if hydrogen sulfide slime could convert my lime-stones bottom layer into gypsum. I'll buy one bag of Cocoa Mulch, then fix the bottom of the planting holes. It's $4 fun experiment ... I'll choose a well-drained site.

There are a few dry spots in my garden that's worth trying. I'll wait 6 months, then dig it up to see the transformation at the bottom. I'll test the procedure on our annual tomato crop, where I have to dig the roots up when winter hits.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 17:56

It is questionable burying any material not completely composted near a root system. This is because the decomposition process uses up the oxygen in the soil, releasing toxic gasses. Plant roots need oxygen, so the decomposition process deprives them of that oxygen, and roots can be harmed by toxic gas as well.

I no longer plant anything in amended soil. I plant in straight native soil and mulch with compost and keep the soil mulched. This is nature's way, after all.

I agree with you fully, Hoov. Dr. J. H. Nicholas advocated loosening but never amending the actual planting soil, but using the organics on the surface instead. As he wrote, "don't bury garbage!" As long as the soil drains and holds moisture, leave it on the surface where Nature puts it. Kim

Just don't use the stuff at all. Melissa is correct. It does contain theobromine -- which is a deadly toxin to canines -- but the smell attracts them.

I'd love to see this product off the market.

Jeri

Strawberry,
There are different ways of being kind to each other. One important way is to tell the truth to someone when you think they are wrong. The posters above are telling you the truth about what they know about cocoa mulch and are not picking on you. If people simply tell you what you want to hear or agree with you when your words are wrong, that is flattery, which is despicable.

I come here to learn the truth about plants and gardens and I appreciate honesty. If I am wrong, I want to know it. You should appreciate what these people have said to you and say thank you.

I am not picking on you. I like you. Gean

THANK YOU ALL for the info. This forum is an accumulation of info., rather than accusation, nit-picking, and controlling. Where is the respect for others' freewill?

Is this a forum to make someone wrong? Am I being wrong for putting mulch at a depth of 3 feet, in my own fenced garden with no animals? I hope this country is democratic, rather than communistic.

I get the idea from Heirloom Roses' website which recommends putting horse manure AT THE BOTTOM of the planting hole, so after several months, by the time the root reach to that level, the stuff is decomposed.

The area which I will test is a TALL RAISED BED, and the stuff will be put at a depth of BELOW 2 FEET. Tomato root is short at first, but will extend to a depth of 3 feet.

Tomato root is much longer than roses' root. By the time the tomato root reaches that depth, the stuff is decomposed already. I set the long raised bed sloped AWAY from the house, so the high end is really dry, and the sloping end is really wet. Where I put the stuff is at the most dry, and well-drained spot.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 10:25

Hi Subk3: I forgot to answer your excellent questions: "Some places I use pine fines on top of the surface as a mulch and it takes at least twice as long as when I use horse manure compost as a mulch to decompose. Should I assume it takes twice as long to release its nutrients?"

You are right, Subk3, that pine bark is notorious for slowest break-down. That's why it's great in breaking up heavy clay. I can't find the NPK for pine bark, but its usefulness is humic acid which conditions the soil. The NPK of pine needles I listed at the top of this thread is very little.

Thanks to Subk3 questions, I checked on factors that affect decomposition. The agriculture info. bank site stated:

"1. Temperature: Cold periods retard plant growth and OM decomposition. Warm summers may permit plant growth and humus accumulation.

2. Soil moisture: Extremes of both arid and anaerobic conditions reduce plant growth and microbial decomposition. Near or slightly wetter than field capacity moisture conditions are most favorable for both processes.

3. Nutrients: Lack of nutrients particularly N slows decomposition.

4. Soil PH: Most of the microbes grow best at pH 6 ��" 8, but are severely inhibited below pH 4.5 and above pH 8.5.

5. Soil Texture: Soils higher in clays tend to retain larger amounts of humus. Decomposition is slower in sand."

Thank you, Hoovb, for the info. on Carbon dioxide emission. I checked on that to see if it's harmful to plants ... the sites state that the decomposition process release nutrients beneficial to plants. Here's an excerpt from the below link from a Ecology and Plant site:

"Decomposers feed on dead organic matter and in the process break it down into its simplest components: carbon dioxide, water and nutrients The process of decomposition releases large quantities of essential nutrients to the soil solution, thereby making them available to plant roots. In northern hardwood forests, for example, about 85% of a treeâÂÂs nitrogen comes from decomposition (Bormann and Likens 1979)."

If you google, "Chemical process of decomposition" Wikipedia listed: nitrogen and phosphorus, and various acids from carbohydrate break-down.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil respiration experiments

Strawberryhill, I have read your tales of your garden experiments with great enjoyment. You clearly have an inquiring mind and a keen sense of adventure, and you share my fascination with soil as the fundamental source of garden success. I don't know what your actual profession is but I think you would have been very well suited to the world of science.

The general rule of amending soil it to mix in only material that is completely composted. It can be horse manure, pine needles, whatever you like, as long as it is composted to the point that you cannot tell anymore by looking what the source material was. Good compost will resemble dark soil. Composted horse manure no longer even smells like horse manure. You can handle it with your bare hands and it has no ick factor. Similarly, composted pine needles have broken down so much you can't tell that they started out as pine needles. Why? Because as long as these materials are still breaking down, they will tie up the nitrogen in the soil for their decomposition process. If they are using the nitrogen, it will not be available for your plants to use.

On the other hand, these same materials before they are broken down, or partially broken down, are highly beneficial as a layer sitting on the surface of the soil. This is exactly what happens to build soil in nature either in a forest or a grassland. There the material will act as mulch, doing all the truly wonderful things that mulch can do for your soil. The nitrogen tie-up will only take place where the soil and the mulch actually touch, so the plants are not impacted. Over time, the soil microbes and worms carry all that good stuff down where it is beneficial, and in a form that improves the health of the soil.

There are a couple of outstanding authors that have helped me sort out advice I've read or been told that sounds good from what actually works. At one time I was impressed by a lot of sincerely well-meant advice that I later set aside. Anyway, here the authors.

Linda Chalker-Scott
The Informed Gardener
The Informed Gardener Blooms Again

Jeff Gillman
The Truth About Garden Remedies
The Truth About Organic Gardening
Decoding Garden Advice

All of these books are available in paperback, and many libraries will have them as well.

Finally here is another quite wonderful book that would be enjoyed by anyone as intrigued by soil as I am, and you clearly are as well.

Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis

Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardner's Guide to the Soil Food Web

Happy reading and happy gardening!

Rosefolly

Thank you, Rosefolly, for all the books you recommended. I LOVE THAT book by rosarian Field Roebuck that you once recommended.

Per your question, my profession a computer programmer.. then I quit my job when I had my child. My B.S. is computer science with a chemistry minor. I grew up in a 5-acres farm in Michigan, we grew all our foods, including chickens.

I check with University Extensions first before I perform any experiment. I checked all the info. I posted thoroughly. I am a finder of info. I don't endorse nor recommend any info. that I relay. I only speak for myself, and not for others.

There's no fixed rule for everyone, since everyone climate and soil is different. Here in my garden, when we mown the grass, we don't bag the grass, we let the grass fertilizer itself. U of Connecticut documented the release of nitrogen is within one month. We composted the grass one time during the winter, and it grew fungi, and wiped out my tomato crop with verticullum wilt when applied in summer.

One time I got curious about the NPK of Ingrid's decomposed granite, and it took 1 hour to find her NPK, twice higher in phosphorus than nitrogen. Ingrid doesn't use any fertilizer except alfalfa meal with NPK of 2-1-2, and her garden looks great!

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 12:25

"I get the idea from Heirloom Roses' website which recommends putting horse manure AT THE BOTTOM of the planting hole, so after several months, by the time the root reach to that level, the stuff is decomposed."

*** Heirloom Roses in OR?????

Jeri
Heritage Roses Group

Hi Jeri: Yes, Heirloom Roses in OR, when you go into their questions/answer tab, you'll will see that tip on horse manure. There's a debate one time, and someone argued with Michaelg about her own personal success following that tip.

We can't impose any rule on people as to what's right and wrong. Everyone garden is different in soil and climate. Even the horse manure is different widely in pH and the type of bedding.

Very much so, Strawberry --

But, [scratching my head] I think even I would question that thing about manure at the BOTTOM.

And I say that, because we DO want the stuff to decompose, right?? Right??? But under ground that far? WOULD it decompose???

I'm thinkin' about the ill-advised time we planted roses in those paper mache pots that are supposed to decompose, leaving the plant free to expand its roots.

The pots we used had been sitting for almost a year, above-ground. They seemed about to fall apart on their own, BUT I took a box-cutter and slashed them all over, before planting.

Those roses never did well. About 2 years later, we dug them up, and those pots were unchanged from when we buried them. Under ground, they did not rot away. Hmmmm...

I've read about scientists who found perfectly-preserved hot dogs, buried under 20 years of trash in a landfill . . .

So, I would worry that, locked away from the air, that manure would not rot. Maybe I'm missing something, but I almost wonder if that might have been an error on Heirloom's part.

Jeri

I just took a look at the Heirloom Roses advice. I suppose that by "well-rotted" they might mean "fully composted". However, I would disagree with their advice to dig a hole two feet deep. I did that in my early planting days, probably based on just that advice since they were one of my first suppliers back in the day when they carried far more old roses. All those roses slowly sank into the ground as the soil compacted until they were buried too deep. Digging a wide hole might indeed be a good idea, but a deep one, not so much. Also, their theory is that the rose roots stay in the planting hole. That is far less likely to happen if you don't change the nature of the soil in the planting hole from the nature of the surrounding soil. I can see amending an entire bed if your soil is not satisfactory. But if you are just digging a hole, amend over time by mulching.

Sorry, Heirloom Roses, I just don't agree with that planting advice. Experience and current research have taught me to think differently.

Rosefolly

Heirloom Roses advices pertain to their soil/climate only ... they speak for themselves: high-rain acidic clay, which rots anything once buried. If you look at the principles of decomposition, stuff don't decompose well when it's dry or sandy.

Clay is compact and doesn't sink at all. Clay in my zone 5a does the opposite in the winter: the wet soil expands, and push all the plants UP.

My neighbor, a Ph.D. in biology and works as a research botanist for Ball Nursery, dug a big hole, and buried organic greens 2 feet so they decompose faster. Where's it's wet, or underground, the cellulose component of plants break down faster. Our rainfall is above 40" plus 23" of snow.

After spending 2 hours researching on decomposition, I found that the PROCESS of decomposition is what release the nutrients, rather than the end result of composition.

I once asked Michaelg and Mike_Rivers (retired chemist), where to put banana peels? on top, mixed in, or in the compost? They both said on top. Mike Rivers said the potassium is released WHILE it's fresh, and once fully composted, all nutrients are gone.

I posted the above in the Organic Rose Forum ... and folks differ widely: one argued great success with fresh peels mixed into the soil, another argued for fresh peels at the bottom of the hole... It depends on one's soil and climate.

I spent time checking on how fast potassium and phosphorus is released: Mike is right that potassium is released immediately, but its mobility in soil is 3 versus 10 of nitrogen. Phosphorus depends on the interaction with other soil factors, and is NOT released if the pH is high, or not enough substrate.

Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it stays put where applied. That's the logic for Heirloom Roses' putting Horse manure at the bottom of planting hole, so roots can access.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 14:20

Thanks Strawberryhill! I think where I was trying to get my brain to is that if you have a material that has twice the NKP, let's say 2-2-2, as another material that has 1-1-1 but the first material takes twice as long to decompose then it really isn't providing anymore fertilization than the lower product at any given time--it just provides the amendment over a greater length of time.

Obviously that's probably a ridiculous over simplification and there are a bunch of contingencies and variables, but the my thought process is making me realize there is a lot more to consider than the numbers on the outside of the package!

Rosefolly thanks for the book suggestions! I had not realize Linda Chalker-Scott had a book out--thanks to Amazon prime, I'll be getting it in a couple days! Earlier today I posted a link to some of her myth debunking over in a different thread!

I found what's even better than cocoa mulch for holding moisture: Coconut Mulch (Coir), which holds 5 times more water than peat moss ... great to mix into soil.

I was puzzled why some reported dogs get sick, others reported their pets being safe....these people mentioned WATERING the mulch well, after applying. I didn't smell chocolate from the bags at Menards (didn't buy any either). Here's a quote from the below link:

"Cocoa Mulch is the hulls of cocoa beans. This
product HAS BEEN WASHED to remove all the theobro-
mine. It is completely harmless to pets. Once applied to
gardens, Cocoa Mulch releases a natural gum prod-
uct which binds the shells into a porous mat that holds moisture. This product naturally deters slugs and snails but it should not be used in shady areas where it will stay wet. If it is kept wet, it will decompose quickly and create an unsightly mold."

So it's the Coconut Mulch (Coir) is what I want to mix into my soil for moisture retention. The drawback? Three times more expensive than Cocoa mulch, and has a higher salt content due to the processing of green coconuts.... so I'm back to square one: use peat moss to lower my high pH of 7.7.

Here is a link that might be useful: On mulches and garden products

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 16:45

strawberry we use coconut coir for seed starting, we love that stuff! I want to find it bulk but i can't find it

Thank you, Jessica, for the uplifting info. There's also coconut chips, but professor Tapla in container gardening tested that, and he reported pine fines still beat coconut chips.

I try to get away from watering my veges and roses this summer ... If I can find a product that retains rain-water for the longest time, that would be great!

Walmart sells 4 pieces of Coir for $20 (each weighs 1.43 lb).... that's still expensive. Since tomatoes need lots of potassium, I'll go ahead and test cocoa mulch as to its water-retention ability when MIXED IN with soil.

The mobility of nutrients is much less in heavy clay versus sand. So for heavy clay, it makes sense to put potassium (factor of 3 mobility, compared to 10 in nitrogen), where the root zone is.

For phosphorus release, I have to bring the pH down, since it's tied up with calcium and magnesium in clay. Hopefully I won't have to water any plants this summer, if I can fix my soil so it retains water, yet fluffy enough for root growth.

Check your local Hydroponics store for the coir in bulk. I guaranty you, those stores do NOT exist so folks can grow hydroponic tomatoes. They serve pot growers and THEY want the pure stuff, without the potential salts it can sometimes contain, and they want it CHEAP to maximize their profits. Google marijuana growing and you'll find some very interesting, good information about coir and how to use it. These growers are quite sophisticated. I guess there is ONE good thing about the spread of this "cash crop". Kim

We have a hydroponics store but it seems when we go by they are never open to get advise... DH tried to do hydro with his hot peppers but it didn't work so he quit trying. I looked on there website and they do have coconut coir in bales for $6 so maybe I can give them another try :-)

Thank you Kim :-) :-)

Off topic... its funny you in the west coast is known for the pot and us on the east coast are known for white lighting :-)

You're welcome Jessica. I guess I must have had the best of both worlds. I was born and raised in Alabama and had "home brewers" in my childhood, and I've known quite a few pot heads here. Neither of which has ever been part of my vices, thankfully to say! Kim

Thank you, Kim, for the info. of hydroponics store.

Hi Jessica: coconut coir in bales for $6! That sounds great to me. I don't like watering roses since my well water pH is 8 ... Austin roses don't bloom much when watered from the tap (lime drives down phosphorus).

Holding 5 times more water than peat moss is worth getting coir in bales. Biggest drawback of peat moss: folks breathe into their lung and develop pneumonia. That happened to me one spring with $5,000 medical bill (insurance paid most), bronchoscopy, and lots of chest X-rays.

Fine pines make heavy clay loamy & fluffy ... but the end result is quite dry.

Strawberry here is the link to the coconut bale
http://hydrogardensandlights.com/store?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_naru.tpl&product_id=3610&category_id=10

I don't know how big it is and the shipping charges lol. I'm sure you have a closer hydroponics store :-)

Kim that's funny :-)

Thank you, Jessica, I checked for a closer store nearby and found one, which sells $4.95 for a coir bag which expands to 0.5 cubic feet.

Below is the link. They have many coir products in that site ... I'm not sure which one is the best to MIX in with my clay for maximum moisture retention. Thanks in advance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Growing Media Hydrofarm

Hey strawberry I called my local store and they said it expands to 60 liters?... but I looked cocotec up and the weight of the bale is 5kg and its 12x12x6 or 8 inches big as it sits so is that a good deal? I am also getting bags of compost this year, I have spots in my gardens that have been deglected for years (rental home) so I want to get that soil nice and good. I am a big tea drinker of tea so I save all of my tea bags and egg shells and spreafhem around. I put the egg shells I. The food processed to make them into powder or the closest I can get to powder :-)

Hi Jessica: thanks for the info. Your bale is a great deal - I clicked on the link you provided but it led me nowhere, so I'll try again.

I checked the ingredients in MiracleGro Moisture Control potting soil, Scotts-site listed:

"Our potting soils contain peat moss, compost (animal manures, composted leaves, grass clippings, and/or composted bark), and perlite (white volcanic rocks used for drainage and soil texture). Some contain Osmocote fertilizer that look like small clear fluid-filled balls.

The Miracle-Gro Moisture Control Potting Mix also contains composted hulls of coconuts to help absorb more water than regular potting soil. This is the Aqua Coir (pronounced "core") component of the soil."

Sam's club sells a HUGE bag of MiracleGro Moisture Control potting soil for $10. It stated that it has fertilizer for 6 months, plus Coir that holds 33% more water than regular potting soil.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 17:54

A liter is 0.0353146667 cubic feet. Your 60 liter amount is roughly 2.11 cu ft, or roughly the size of a standard large bag of potting soil, if that helps. Kim

Sorry about that link does this one work...?

Yea mixing those sounds good especially when we get into the hot, dry and water restricted days

Here is a link that might be useful: coconut coir bale

Ah ha thank you Kim yea that helps a lot :-)

Thank you, Jessica, for that link ... that's exactly what I want, such a great deal - you are a lucky gal. Your link stated: "CocoTekî can be mixed with any other growing media. The "mixed" brick contains coconut chips, fiber and fine coir to increase the structure of the media."

Warning about MiracleGro Moisture Control potting soil: I think it has too much nitrogen with its 6-months fertilizer. I was looking at pictures of veges grown with that stuff in the container garden: Bell pepper at 4 feet tall and 4 peppers? That's too tall than my 6 inches pepper with way more fruits. I saw really tall tomato with a few flowers .. not impressive compared to my Mom's tomato 1/2 size, but twice more flowers.

Even with my regular MiracleGro potting soil, I was annoyed at how dark-green the leaves of geraniums are, much less flowers than the organic potting soil in my garden.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 15:18

I don't think you can really judge the soil by the photos. Those plants were probably not grown in the soil, but staged to provide a pretty picture. I've been involved in some garden and plant photo shoots and they are about as "real" and "natural" as Photo Shopped people glamor shots. Add more blooms to this side of the plant. Spray this stuff on the leaves to make them brighter green, darker green, shinier, etc. Stuff four plants into a pot to make it fuller so the plant looks as though it grows better. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the plants shown aren't real, but artificial.

You would be surprised how often nothing is actually set up for these types of shoots until the actual day of filming. I seriously doubt any of the displayed plants were actually grown for the purpose. A day or two before the photographer was to photograph them, there were people out scrambling to put together the required types. The day of the shoot, stylists were hurriedly making them look "beautiful". The colors of the foliage, fruit, flowers were what someone thought they should look like, and probably not what they would if actually grown in that soil. It's all about appearances and what the guy paying the bill believes will sell the product. Kim

Kim I believe that, I was watching HSN or qvc well browsing really and there was a segment about reblooming daylillies and the plants they had shown on the set were fake, I mean he's that is an example I know that but they were trying g to make me believe those where the ones i were to receive if bought.

Strawberry I read on this forum last year that miracle grow promotes leaf and bloom growth but not over all health... if I am wrong please correct me haha :-) also not to use it to start cuttings.

Buried stuff rotting releases methane as well as carbon dioxide. Underground decomposition is more likely to be anerobic than aerobic.

Here is a link that might be useful: anaerobic decompostion

That's why Johnson Wax runs their plant on gases released by a nearby landfill. There is a very high end condo complex near the Getty Center which was built on a landfill thirty plus years ago. When it was still quite new, there were issues with methane leaking into the units and swimming pools with a number of people made ill (perhaps even drowning) from the methane saturated in the water.

If there isn't sufficient ground water to promote bacterial activity of some kind, the stuff just sits there. I remember reading an article quite a few years ago about college anthropology classes digging old landfills and reading 80 year old newspapers and MAIL. That kind of stuff just doesn't belong UNDER the soil unless in a controlled environment where gas is the desired product, to be harvested and utilized. Far better to keep it ON the ground or in a well worked compost pile where it will digest rather than souring. Kim

Thank you, Hoovb, for the info. Everyone climate and soil is different. Stuff don't decompose ON TOP in my zone 5a winter of -20 degree Fahrenheit. It was snow and hail early this April.

Kim (Roseseek) has 7" of rain in his dry California versus my 40" of rain plus 23" of snow in my Chicagoland. Stuff decomposes fast where it's warmer underground in my cold zone, with wet limy clay. Lime was used to corrode corpses.

Kim's soil is shale clay, where shale is a natural source of gas. I have limestone clay, rich in calcium carbonate. TUMS (calcium carbonate) is an anti-acid and anti-gas. Stuff decompose fast in my limy clay, versus less in shale clay or sandy soil.

I tested it: I put 20+ fresh banana peels IN THE BOTTOM of Radio Times planting hole. That bush is 100% healthy, most blooms. I also tested putting half-rotted horse-manure at the bottom of Christopher Marlow, with huge blooms.

My logic of putting cocoa mulch NPK of 2.5 - 1 - 3 at the depth below 2 feet for tomatoes:

1) Cocoa mulch decomposes FAST when wet underground. Its nitrogen content speeds up decomposition. A site stated "cocoa mulch decomposes fast when wet."

2) The heat released from the decomposition process underneath speeds up tomato growth. Black plastic mulching of tomato in cold zone yielded more, and earlier fruits, due to heating up of the soil. We put bags of dethatched grass in the garage one winter, and it heated up the entire garage.

3) The acid released from carbohydrates decomposition breaks up the bottom limestone layer ... I'm hoping for conversion to gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate). Cocoa mulch is acidic at pH of 5.8, which will bring down my pH over 8 of limestone underneath.

4) By the time the tomato roots expand downward to below 2 feet, everything is decomposed and will supply the potassium needed for that late stage.

Cocoa mulch has 2.5 nitrogen, 1 of phosphorus, and 3 of potassium, and contains all micronutrients:

ANALYSIS OF COCOA MULCH at pH 5.4

Total N % 3.0

Total C % 43.0

Phosphorus mg/100g 1000

Potassium mg/100g 3251

Calcium mg/100g 575

Magnesium mg/100g 488

Iron mg/100g 140

Manganese mg/100g 9

Zinc mg/100g 11

Copper mg/100g 3.5

Nickel ppm 1.0

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Apr 30, 13 at 17:14

Kim's climate is dry CA with shale clay, which produces natural gas, plus organics don't decompose well. Wikipedia wrote: "Fossils, animal tracks/burrows and even raindrop impact craters are sometimes preserved on shale bedding surfaces."

Anything not-decomposed get stinky. My pile of kitchen scraps (banana peels, melon rinds, veges...) are really stinky on top in a wet & cool environment. We finally get to 80's dry weather, and that compost pile is less reeky. In contrast, the well-decomposed buried cocoa mulch has no smell.

Few weeks ago I put Cocoa mulch in at the bottom of the hole, and cover with dirt. Now I dug up, there are lots of earthworms and pill bugs ... more moist than the other holes amended from last fall with 1) peat moss 2) pine bark 3) leaves 4) alfalfa meal.

The cocoa mulch site is correct in stating that it decomposes quickly when wet. I have never seen that much earthworms and pill bugs in my life as in the hole with cocoa mulch ... superior moisture holding ability, better than MG moisture-control potting soil. It's cheaper too, now on sale for $3.59 per 2 cubic foot at Menards.

This winter I put 2 young roses in moist potting soil deep in the ground. It was still too dry, and they didn't survive zone 5a. Cocoa mulch mixed in the hole will help my roses to survive a dry winter.

I tested the pH of the hole with cocoa mulch (pH 5.8) mixed with my alkaline clay (pH 7.7) and the result was neutral, clear in red-cabbage juice pH testing. The other hole mixed with pine bark, was much more acidic, below 6.5. (pH of pine bark is 4.5 or lower).

Below is a picture of cocoa mulch mixed with my clay. You can't see the cocoa mulch, since it's half-rotted. The brown chunks are pine parks mixed in from last fall. Pine bark is the slowest to decompose among mulch.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Apr 30, 13 at 18:03

I'm not surprised it's taking forever for the pine bark to decompose. Per the ARS annual article I've posted and mentioned previously, pine bark is predominantly cellulose and silica. The silica is from blowing sand which sticks to the bark, then the bark forming over and around it. Kim

My property about 3 hours south/west of Chicagoland is very clay soil. Get it wet, and you can make pottery. I've never amended a planting hole yet in 25 years, but we have heavily mulched with hardwoods and oak leaves and the soil over the years is like black gold.

When we turned part of the lawn into a new conifer garden, one of my friends recommended that only native soil be used and put back in the hole, and no amendments added. She had just graduated from Hort. School. So far, none of the trees, roses, or perennials are complaining about lack of manure in their homes when they are planted, and none have failed to thrive. I believe clay is very fertile on its own anyway and full of nutrients. Just ask the weeds that I constantly battle.

Hi Terryjean: My clay here is limestone clay, when it's dry, it's hard like a rock. Plus the pH is very high at 7.7 - putting amendments here is to lower the pH for my roses and acid plants like azaleas and rhododendrons.

My last house was only 1/2 hour away, with slightly acidic clay. That one doesn't have limestone, and doesn't become rocks when dry. I didn't have to amend my soil back then. We didn't have to fertilize the lawn back then, it was always green & no weeds.

My soil is tested by EarthCo. to be deficient in potassium and phosphorus, plus iron and manganese deficiencies due to the high pH of 7.7. That's why I have to lower my pH with amendments.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 17:50

Thank You, Kim (Roseseek) for the info. you gave about pine bark. I planted 7 white pines ... only one is dark green, which I fixed the hole with tons of sand. Two died in my hard clay, and the rest are pale in my pH 7.7.

I also appreciate Kim's info. about stuff can't decompose if buried in his dry climate & shale clay in CA. What works in my zone 5a (limestone clay) doesn't work in CA, and cocoa mulch isn't sold that cheap elsewhere, but at $3.59 per 2 cubic feet here.

The pre-washed cocoa mulch is safe for dogs. Regular cocoa mulch: the chocolate scent goes away after a heavy rain, or a few watering. Best to water right after using.

I layered cocoa mulch into soil early April. Now it's August 3, for this past month we got the best-tasting tomatoes in 12 years: sweet, firm, and crunchy. They are also bigger from the potassium of cocoa mulch. I only watered them once this year, the cocoa much retains moisture well, and NO tomato worms like with chemical fertilizer.

{{gwi:250828}}

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 17:47