I am very curious to see what people say. I just bought a band of Archduke Joseph because it is listed smaller than Monsieur Tillier.

Yes, I forgot about that one. An Arch. Joseph is also in commerce in the States. Is this the same as AJ in Europe and different than Mons. Tillier? Are these 3 distinct roses? Is the european AJ the same as the US MT and different than the US AJ?
Nik

I am not sure if the two are the same.
Here is my Archduc Joseph from Peter Beales.
Daisy

{{gwi:257197}}

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I have just tried to take a better photo this morning, but it didn't work as the sun is coming up behind it. It makes the photos weird.

{{gwi:257199}}

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The photos that Daisy posted of AJ don't look like my Monsieur Tillier, which was purchased from VG several years ago. The color of the flower and the color of the new growth don't match MT. Sometimes it's hard to gauge the real color from a photo, of course. My MT is the only flower in my garden with that unique salmon-copper pink hue.

Also,the form of the flower doesn't seem to match MT nor does the growth habit. MT has very stiff, short, formally arranged petals. My MT is very upright, never or almost never has any hanging or downward drooping growth.

Of course, all of these differences could be attributable to different climate and growing conditions.

Really lovely garden, by the way! Such a wonderful place for a walk.

Avalon

Here is a link to VG picture of M. Tillier, which shows the form very well. Lowery's description of the strange color is spot on.

Here is a link that might be useful: VG M. Tillier

I know this is a photo of a past prime bloom. But I am thinking my Archduke Joseph is not who I think he is. The plant is growing well but likes to proliferate and has always been more shades of pink tinted peach and yellow.

Any guesses?

Where'd it come from, Kippy?

It looks sort of familiar, but I can't say what it is.

Jeri

Disclaimer -- I'm not a Tea expert.

That being said, Kippy's flower pic reminded me of two roses right off the bat (from pictures, only....):

Mademoiselle Franziska Krüger
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4044.6&tab=1

or

E. Veyrat Hermanos
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1692&tab=1

Thoughts? Am I close?

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Thu, Nov 6, 14 at 20:43

It came from Rogue Valley Roses and still has it's 'Archduke Joseph' tag (not supposed to be a mystery rose...)

It took off like a weed. It blooms almost constantly, only I rarely take photos because of the green centers, the color has been consistent, never a real saturated pink. The new growth and canes are more of a burgundy color.

For E. Veyrat Hermanos that I have from Burling, that ones bud was a nice gold. I never saw that bud open due to the chickens.

For Mademoiselle Franziska Krüger, I hope not since I spent extra to get one from RU. I think my rose has a bit more color than Freddy.

I will look and see if I have better photos from an earlier time. It just seems a bit different than I expected.

My first strong reaction to your rose, Kippy, was Mlle. Franziska Kruger. I had this rose in another garden and it did have proliferation and the colors and shape looked exactly like that. A bit of a diva, but her placement was not optimal.

Ingrid

Nik,
Last year I read all the info I could find and came to the conclusion this remains a mystery.
In hopes of finding a thornless Archduke I asked Burling , owner of a specialty California nursery, if her Monsieur Tillier was very thorny. She said yes, so I may be on to something- but maybe not.
In a few months my first M Tillier from California should arrive to speak up for himself.
When Kippy wrote Archduke Joseph might not be who she thinks, I misread it at first as " Archduke Joseph is not who He thinks he is "
Both roses intrigue me.
Christopher brought up names of two more roses on my wish list, EV Hermanos and MF Kruger.
At any name, the evidence is right before us and we can't figure it out, plain as the rose in our face, enthralling!
Ironically, a friend came over last spring and selected a Francis Dubreuil from my garden just as it was forming the first bud so I never got to see who He really thought he was...
Linda

Hi Kippy,
I bought Mademoiselle Franziska Kruger from RVR and Souvenir de Pierre Notting from RU this spring. They look almost identical to one another, so IâÂÂm not sure if I really have a MFK and a SdPN or two MFKs or two SdPNs or whatâ¦itâÂÂs been the year of mislabeled roses for me, so who knows. New growth is burgundy on both my roses, they have been constant bloomers, blooms take on more pink as they age and almost always end with green, proliferated centers.

MFK

{{gwi:257201}}

SdPN

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Pat Bama, to my eye your MFK looks very much like Kippy's rose.
Laura

Pat, I am so glad I am not the only one who feels like those purchased roses need to come with a ? on their tags....lol My grandson is enjoying helping me along with mom so I can see how easy it can happen but still. I bought a bunch of strap tags so I can label either the fence behind or the drip line in front of the plants.

I will watch and see if my RU Freddy and my RVR rose similar and I think I can check out SdNP at the local garden. What ever mine is it is vigorous. I realized that it is also in probably some extra good soil since for about 100 years the old chicken coop was inches away.

Kippy,
I can definitely see how easy it would be to mislabel or misidentify the roses. What amazes me, though, is that it seems all of my mislabeled ones have ended up being a rose I already ownâ¦out of all the zillions of rose varieties, I keep ending up with duplicates instead of something new and unexpectedâ¦go figure. Oh well, someone is going to be gifted several really nice roses this spring ïÂÂ
Here are a couple more pictures of mine showing the proliferated centersâ¦although, IâÂÂm not sure how much good it will do to compare to yours, since more than likely, at least one of mine isnâÂÂt who itâÂÂs supposed to beâ¦lol

MFK

{{gwi:257204}}

SdPN

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Pat. I got lucky with one, I got Prospero, of course it is now planted in a fairly poor spot for it.

A new bloom

Guessing not Archduc Joseph?

One more

Nope, Definitely not Archiduc or Tillier. I do not grow Mlle Kruger, but it looks like photos I have seen of that rose.

Rosefolly

We have never answered Nik's original question. I vaguely remember reading somewhere something along the lines that our Monsieur Tillier and Europe's Archduke Joseph are the same, and that our Archduke Joseph is something else. My memory of this is hazy and I can't recall the original reference. I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable will pipe in and clear this up.

Rosefolly

Here is the research conducted by Ann Chapman, noted rose author and nurserywoman in New Zealand.

This issue is a mess all over the world!

Here is a link that might be useful: Ann Chapman's research

Last year it was Ann Chapman's article in combination with the forum thread and Help Me Find that did not help me find a reasonable conclusion at all. Lots of intrigue though, better I think than the library book mysteries my neighbor reads because the last chapter has yet to be written.
Maddening as it is , I always hope someone, somewhere will gain more insight about the true identities.
Gardening in my mind before falling asleep, I was thinking just last night , Mons Tillier is on the way in a Spring shipment, I don't need Archduke Joseph, ever.
Today after reading and seeing the photos again, the enigmatic Archduke is back on my list.
Ironically, to have them both may not solve anything...

I checked the Australian tea rose book. It reports the same confusion exists in that part of the world.

I suspect that the only way to settle the question would be through DNA analysis. Perhaps one day this will be done.

Rosefolly

Look at Daisy's photo of her Beales Archduke Joseph, and compare to my Antique Rose Emporium Mons. Tillier, see here.

But, then, look at THIS bloom, on the same plant. This is a very, very changeable rose, even for a Tea!

Does anyone have a photo of an Archduc Joseph bloom from Rogue Valley Roses?

Pat, my MFK and SDPN also look exactly the same. My SDPN came from RU, but unfortunately I don't remember where my MFK came from. Does anyone else that has these two think they look alike? Or is one of them mislabeled?

..regarding Ann Chapman's research, she doesn't mention it, but it seems to me the rose they've been growing in NZ as Mons. Tillier is actually 'Marie Nabonnand'... as it was introduced there by Beales before 1993 under the Mons. Tillier name...

...I was growing this at the same time in England, bought from Beales.... the rose I was growing conforms to the descriptions and photos on HMF of Marie Nabonnand... a 1941 climbing HT...

..even the description given by Beales at the time, and quoted in the Sinclair and Thodey book is exactly how it was in the Beales catalogue and what attracted me to it then...
... ''A good but little known rose better endowed than most Teas with foliage. Rather loosely double flowers, blood red with violet smudges, freely produced on a vigorous bush. Tall and lax. Parentage unknown''

..that's it...

Maybe this will double post-
Yesterday I tried to write that the HMF Archduke Joseph appeared to have very substantial red thorns. I thought the real Archduke is supposed to be thornless?

Let me add my bit to the confusion, My 'Archduke Joseph's parent plant came from Peter Beales. It looks like Daisy's plant, naturally, since they come from the same source, and also looks like the Vintage Gardens AJ photo and like Ann Chapman's AJ photos, both shown in links above. Jeri's first photo of 'Mons. Tillier' also looks like 'Archduke Joseph' as I know it, while the second photo shows a bloom much redder than anything I recall seeing on my plant, but we all know about the variability of color in Teas. Kippy's photo posted last November looks totally unlike my AJ. She herself says she thinks she has something else, but I'll describe the differences I see. My 'Archduke Joseph' has a flattish bloom with rounded outer petals, perhaps rolled but never forming that point that gives Kippy's flower a starry look. Her bloom is also much more full of petals, giving it a congested appearance, and is also paler than I generally see AJ and has yellow tints that I never see in this variety. 'Archduke Joseph' is NEVER yellow.
Some further description of my 'Archduke Joseph' (I'm not saying that mine is the true variety, just that my plant is so and so): it's a large, vigorous, very healthy rose, never gets mildew, has red new growth and noticeably handsome leaden green foliage that persists in winter and turns a polished dark color. The flowers are fairly large, flattish, full, with often quilled inner petals, outer petals curved, cupped, and perhaps rolled, but not forming a point and so the flower doesn't assume a starry shape but is always rounded. The color is mixed shades of mostly orange and pink, medium intensity, sometimes lighter but always in that case in shades of cream, pink, and pale orange, never yellow; and I've never seen it red, either. I don't recall AJ being either noticeably thorny or thornless. I can't speak as to its habit, as mine has had to fight against a persimmon tree that has in time overgrown it and distorted its natural form, whatever that might be. As I've mentioned before, I decided to try forcing it to grow through the persimmon; currently AJ is about four meters tall and is peeping out through the top of the leafless persimmon, and as I write it has some blooms. I get the best view of them from my upstairs bedroom window.
Melissa

This post was edited by melissa_thefarm on Fri, Jan 16, 15 at 10:26

That's exactly the Archiduc I was hoping to find Melissa.
I looked up Mr Beales description, undoubtedly a particularly evocative rose.
There is an AJ rose blooming around that is described as having a cactus dahlia like form. It also is beautiful but very different,
and of the two I think you have the finer.
Linda

Are we still pretty sure MFK?