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Replace roses with ... What?

Posted by cweathersby NE TX 7b/8a (My Page) on
Sat, May 24, 08 at 14:38

Continuing with Sammy's No Spray Garden thread ...

I am not going no spray yet, but I am spraying very infrequently.

There are some roses that I am not happy with and this year I am going to go through my garden picking which ones to SP. I originally thought that I would replace every sp'd rose with a blueberry bush, but I hate the thought of someone accidentally eating a ripe blueberry without washing it first, since I will still spray fungicides occasionally.

So if you were taking 10% or so of your roses out of the garden, what would you replace them with? I need something with a definate presence, like an evergreen, but I can't think of any evergreens that are 5' / 4' or so. I don't want anything that I have to prune.

It is easy to imagine some of my smaller roses replaced by a gold spirea, or something, but what about the medium sized ones?

In one case the offending rose (Eureka) is dividing 2 paths. I'd like something with enough substance to define the 2 paths.

In another case the offending rose (Welwyn Garden Glory) is hiding the raspberry trellis that is behind it.

Please don't suggest more disease resistant roses, because there are over 150 roses here already, and most are teas and chinas. But between the beetles in the summer and the mildew in the spring and the canker and everything else that goes with roses, I am just ready to replace the bad ones with an entirely different sort of plant.

What do you think?

Carrie


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

the link at the bottom has a page of dwarf lilacs that are suppose to do well in the southern states, to zone 8 and 9.
there is also on the early lilacs some hyacinthafloras that are regular size that are good for the south.
do iris do well where you are? the historics are pretty tough. Peonies? i think they even have peony trees that are supposedly evergreen.

Here is a link that might be useful: southern dwarf lilacs


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I second tree peonies. I have 4, and they don't die down to the ground like regular peonies. The thing is they don't like a lot of hot sun all day long. Check out Cricket Hill Farms.

I also have a Tri-Color Beech tree, which is a very small ornamental tree with speculator foliage. It's featured in this month's Better Homes & Gardens. After 15 years, it's still only 5' tall and maybe 3' wide. I absolutely adore it. Ornamental trees such as Japanese maples would be a great look and some stay very small. I have one in the middle of my rose garden and it blends very well.
-terry


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

  • Posted by melva 7b/8aTX (My Page) on
    Sat, May 24, 08 at 18:02

Carrie
What kind of Raspberries are you growing? Are they doing well?
How about a Rose of Sharon? there are so many pretty colors..I know where you can get some...here!


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

How do clematis do in your garden, Carrie? I know you are a professional trellis installer, and they would add gorgeous vertical interest in your garden.

Cheers,
Michelle


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

We have good luck with Iris among roses. They have no real disease problems that I can see.
Their foliage makes a pretty contrast with the roses, too.
And, if your circumstances work, you can scatter seeds of annuals through and around them.
I don't know whether you're warm enough for them, but we have brugmansias among our roses, as well.

Jeri


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raspberry

That's funny melva that you should mention raspberry. I just planted a heritage red raspberry and a triple crown thornless blackberry in the back of the house with some flowers i bought at the nursery. I needed something to fill in and was probably a little hungry or something. don't go to the nursery when your hungry!


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I have a Texas Scarlet quince that fits in really well in one of my rose borders. It is a short, rather full variety that blooms in Jan/Feb for me. It has no disease or insect problems. I have also found Phillipine Violet (Barleria) to be a nice fall blooming addition in the areas of the garden that get less sun. In my zone, it is an evergreen and is easily maintained at 4-5 feet. Of course, brunsfelsia (yesterday, today, tomorrow) is a good looking spring blooming shrub. One of my favorites with roses are shrimp plants (Justicias). They bloom almost year round in my zone, but I don't know how hardy they are for you. These are just some of the shrubs I have used with, or in place of, roses. Oops, I almost forgot my firespikes with their excellent foliage and hummer-attracting blooms AND the wonderful abutilons.
Molly


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I was blown away by the hundreds of bushes and flowers native to Texas on this website. Piedmont azalea and Texas mountanin laurel were beautiful. I don't know how many of these you could get your hands on. Lewissi ernestii was beautiful but rare.

Here is a link that might be useful: Texas shrubs


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Check out the small ornamental Japanese maples...they are beautiful with roses (saw some today).

Had you thought about using stones/boulders in the landscape?


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Iris does very well in Texas. I have plenty. But they aren't as substantial as I would need to block other views.
I don't know what kind of raspberries that are here. They were among the first plants that I ever planted, and they grew and grew and grew even with the neglect they got before I realized that plants must be watered.
Clematis do OK here - I was actually thinking of putting in tri-pods to grow them on. That would be cute in the middle of a border.
Stones and boulders are too expensive for me to get. Plus I'd have to move them! But I do love the idea. It's beautiful when other people do it.
There are about 7 Japanese maples at my house in pots - But it's too sunny in the rose garden except in 1 or 2 spots that get afternoon shade. They don't like sunny areas in Texas.
I haven't had brugs come back. The daturas do, but they send seed everywhere and mean more weeding for me.
Quince is a wonderful idea. I've even got some that are in too much shade and they would love for me to move them into a sunny spot! They are the peach ones. I wonder how big they'll get?

Thanks for the ideas, everyone. Keep them coming.
As far as lilacs and peonies go - I've got a weird rule when it comes to plants - They've either got to bloom in the winter OR bloom in the heat of the summer. No plants that just bloom in April, May, or early June are allowed. I like to have stuff blooming year round, and the garden is pretty much full of bloom from April - June no matter what the overall plan is, so I save my garden space for things that make me happy in the drearier or hotter times of the year.

Now that you know my rule, all of will think I'm crazier than the average crazy rose nut.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Nope, you're no crazier than the average crazy rose nut :-)
You fit right in with us.
I don't really have any ideas for you, Carrie, but I was wondering what kind of "beetles" you have in the summer? The only beetles we have here are late spring "June" beetles (they are no problem) and the little summer "cucumber" beetles (which don't seem to do much damage to my roses). Please say you haven't seen any JB in NorthEast Texas!

Randy


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

There is dwarf variety of oakleaf hydrangea that stays about 4' called pee wee. It can take a lot of sun, but it will need water at least for the first year or so. Great color during summer and fall though.

What about a butterfly bush? They come in various sizes and colors and bloom until it freezes.

Autumn sage? This plant is about 2' tall for me in its second year; adds color all summer and stayed evergreen. It gets woody, though and will need to be cut back sometimes.

Someone mentioned rose of sharon earlier - that's a nice plant, too.

Crepe myrtle?


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Randy,
Yes I have JBs. Not very many though - yet. I see 3 - 4 / day during beetle season. I called the county extension agent who confirmed that yes, we do have JBs in our county (Cass) and in some of the other counties in NE TX.
The beetles that do damage though are some type of oriental beetle. I've looked at lots of beetle pictures and oriental beetles are the only ones that look like what I have. I sent some beetles to Baldo over in California but never got a response. These beetles do the same damage as JBs. They eat all of the blooms and then move on to the tender foliage and then move on down if they feel like it. They weren't here the first year I had roses but showed up the 2nd. The third year they did massive damage to the point that there were no blooms for a month or so. You can spray them with insecticide but it only works for a day or two before they are back. I think they are in my soil, but have you ever priced the beneficial nematode stuff? I'd need thousands of dollars (ok, maybe only 1,600) to treat my 2 acres.
Plus this spring I've had powdery mildew so bad that some of my roses STILL haven't bloomed. A couple of them look like they are near death.
Not to mention the thrips.
I don't mind spraying for BS once every 6 weeks or so, but I'll be danged if I'm going to spray for thrips, beetles, mildew, BS, and the dormant sprays after I prune. I'll SP every rose in my garden before I go to those lengths.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Carrie: What about crape myrtles? You might look into introductions by Dr.Carl Whitcomb, I keep hearing that he is the crape myrtle guru.

Lisa

Here is a link that might be useful: Oklahoma Proven....


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I liked the idea of tree blueberries. Would they be tall enough to keep the berries from being sprayed?

My first thought was Lantana, if it will winter over for you. I don't know if the leaves would stay green or not.

Roses have always had a special affinity for herbs and have frequently been included in herb gardens--maybe you could include some of the shrubs that have herbal qualities--or shrubs with fragrant leaves.

Southernwood will eventually get up to six feet, is soft and fuzzy, and attracts bees if it flowers for you.
Tansy is not a shrub, but looks ferny and will get quite tall but needs to be cut before reseeding.

There are ferns that get tall and do well in sun, also.

If you have an area of your garden that is beginning to get shaded out a bit, the hardier magnolias might be nice, especially a fragrant one (and I also vote for tree peonies--they stay the size of a rose for quite awhile and have nicely textured leaves and interesting craggy shapes if left to their own devices; the all-too-brief spring flowers are just frosting on the cake).

For quick screening, Kerria is good, but I don't know how that would fit in with a garden full of roses. I have some beside a little gazebo and it gives a bit of a Japanese quality to it.

There are tree hydrangeas that could be interesting; also very small fruit trees or shrubs.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

What about butterfly bushes? I have those mixed in with my roses to add some summer color plus it offers you colors you don't often see or can't get with roses like blue and purples. Doesn't stay green in winter but does provide summer color. Oops just noticed someone else said this but oh well!

Weigela, while mine don't often flower I know others who's do. I like the varigated kind. Doesn't stay green in the winter but again does give you that color in spring and summer.

Rosemary- I don't know about there but here it stays green all year and makes a nice contrast with the roses. Plus you can use it to cook with! :O) I use mine all the time.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

There are so many 4-5' shrubs available. My favorite evergreen is the juniper 'Pencil Point'. It makes a nice vertical statement but will only grow to 6' or so, and really really does stay only 1' wide at most. You can stick it in anywhere and don't have to worry about it getting too wide and crowding surrounding roses.

Are you able to grow boxwood there? You can prune it to any shape.

I like the ideas for j. maples and tree peonies.

That's the best ideas I have coming from a zone 5 perspective.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Carrie, I've never bought peonies from them before but Gilbert H Wild has some pretty ones. Good luck with your choices. In the long run it really does matter. I have a huge tree mistake in the yard now.

Carla


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Vibernum maybe?

Mari


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Baptisia, 'shrub' clematis like integrifolia, ornamental grasses, caryopteris, sedum, Rudbeckia nitida, heliopsis - I'm trying to think of largish things in my beds that might like Texas.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Am I to assume you hate azaleas?


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

We bought a Mandevilla. I meant to try a bouganvilla, but my husband got the first one. It was $25, and will only be an annual this year.

I have seen some dwarf crape myrtles that look pretty. I already have over 10, so don't want more.

I am also looking for Lantanas that are large. We always have to wait for them to be shipped in here since nobody grows them.

I have 300 rose bushes, and would like to remove all the grass, but am not sure how to do that. If I remove the grass, I will solve some of the weed problem in my beds, but I have not figured out a way to handle the bermuda, and not use Round Up.

Ants are my biggest problem right now.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Can't help with the ants but am providing a link to the Austin garden of Tom Spencer. If you study the pictures you'll find lots of plant ideas and a unique take on a formal garden design. No lawn grass that I can see. He does grow some roses as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soul of the Garden


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Patricia - I hate to admit, but I am one of the only people in the world who won't plant azaleas. They do so well here that they are everywhere.

Great idea about the miniature crape myrtles. I never would have thought about that. I don't have any crape myrtles, but it may be time to buy some. I've always avoided them because 1) they are so common here, and 2) they are among the last plants to leaf out in the spring and I am always looking for winter to be over ASAP.

Sammy- Use Grass-B-Gone on the bermuda. That or Grass Killer. I don't know if they have the same effect on soil as Round up, but I do know that you can get the spray directly on your roses and other plants without hurting them. It only kills grass.

I have a couple of butterfly bushes that Beerhog gave me. They are new this year. I may try to get more.

Also, I never would have thought of Kerria. I have it in shadier parts of the garden and I think that the green twiggy look would look great next to roses. Does it do ok in full sun?

I'm going to have to research Southernwood. I love fragrant plants.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Denise, what a beautiful garden. Is that indoor outdoor carpeting that he is using? Then he has rocks that do not have bermuda grass peeping out of it. It is lovely.

Carrie, I will look into the Grass B Gone. After having used the Preen last year, and losing so many plants, I am concerned about any product. If once I pull out the grass, and put in paving stones, I don't know how I will keep out the grass. I will check on these others.

Sammy


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Boy, Denise, what a great garden. Looks like quarter minus gravel on the paths to me.
I'm not sure if these plants are hardy for you, Carrie, but here some good evergreen shrubs are - Choisia ternata with white fragrant blooms now, Mahonia media 'Charity' with yellow flowers in November and blue berries now, various Cistus cultivars, various sweet olive cultivars - Osmanthus heterophyllus for example has all sorts of leaf shapes and fragrant fall small flowers, lots of Daphnes (Daphne retusa is good), different Berberis cultivars, one great plant that should be hardy for you is Magnolia (formerly Michelia) yunnanensis... Go to Forestfarm or Cistus (check plant size before ordering, lots of hard to find things may be small) for lots of choices outside the ordinary. Deciduous plants that are good for me are Edgeworthia chrysantha, a daphne relative, blooming really early with a tropical leaf form during the summer, Callicarpa 'Profusion' with great purple berries in winter, Exchorda 'The Pearl', Spirea 'Ogon'. I love Salvia guarantica with the roses in summer.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Check the latest issue of Fine Gardening. It has great ideas for shrubs and showy plants in all regions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fine Gardening


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Albertine,
You are my kind of gardener. I have lots of osmanthus, daphnes, michelia - including yunnanensis, edgeworthia, and mahonia 'Charity'. I really really love fragrant plants to the point of obsession.
I've always wanted some of the others that you mentioned, so I may go ahead and use the rose removal as an excuse to get them.
Has anyone ever rooted an Edgeworthia? I'd like to make some babies but don't want to waste my time if they are hard to root. Mahonias, for example, can take years.

I really enjoyed the links. It's weird how you can get so caught up in rose gardening that you forget about all of the other plants except for rose companions.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I think Kerria would do well in Pennsylvania in sunlight; not sure about Texas, though.

I read some more on Lantana--there are both upright and recumbent varieties, and some infertile ones-- which would be infinitely better in your climate zone, to avoid reseeding and loss of bloom.

The nice thing is that they flower all summer and attract butterflies; also they have several colors, most of which would go with several rose colors. They can be cut down in the fall and qujickly grow back the following spring, or they can be left to grow larger.

Apparently they are not evergreen even in your climate, though, although I couldn't find a reference that specifically said that. :o(

Here is a link that might be useful: Article on Kerria


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

If you don't like Japanese beetles, you are going to hate Crape Myrtle. Crapes draw in JBs from miles around.

I got rid of about 20 CMs for that reason. I do have a couple Acomas, but had more than that until the midnight loser on the football game between LSU & Alabama, took out my brick mailbox, crape myrtles, part of one rose bed and ended up just before entering my bedroom. Of course, you know it's a hit-and-run and we were unable to get the tag number before he was gone, but I do have azaleas, crape myrtles, kerryia, camellias, sesanqua, acer palmatums (5 now), crabapple trees, flowering cherry, tea olives, forsythia, flowering quince, boxwood, holly, smaller magnolias (oh yeah and one of those dwarf lilacs that blooms every few years and peonies that have 1-2 blooms every other year), irises (bearded, repeats, louisiana, japanese and some others, cannot remember them all), bridal wreath, another form of spirea (rose color), chinese fringe plants, eleagnus, tall grasses, wygelia, and some other stuff.


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Oh, I forgot...

I have blueberry bushes in the area where the soil was (woohoo), clematis, hydrangea, butterfly bushes and gardenia and tall garden phlox. I know I have forgotten something but that's a good start.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I had typed up a long list with details but my computer crashed, so I give you some of the list but I am too tired to type up all the details again, hope you forgive me

Chase tree (vitex) - trouble free, drought tolerant
loropetalum - evergreen burgundy foliage, tree or shrub size
Pineapple guava- evergreen, small, slow growing tree - drought tolerant

Tibouchina - several varieties, some must be hardy, although die back after hard freeze but grow to tall and wide bushes by mid- summer, they need regular watering otherwise trouble free; grandifolia is not hardy in zone 8 but cuttings root easy and fast
Brugmansia - grows to 7-8 ' tall in every season, fragrant, dies back bur comes back from root every year

Tried to post some image links but pasting google image links messed up the post. No problem; it is easy to google them.

My mistake if you already have all of them.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

How about a flock of lovely pied or lavender guineas to eat the beetles? I want some guineas for my flower garden, but need to finish brooding the turkeys before I can try it. :-)

Cheers,
Michelle


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Oh, yes, cotoneaster and mock orange, English dogwood, ornamental grass, albeia (sp?).


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I think you could root an Edgeworthia from one of its suckers, but I'm speaking from no actual knowledge, only that it is always sending out suckers at the base, like a fig.You have some Sarcococcas? They fit your parameters. Cistus had a nice one from Afghanistan, I think it was S. salicifolia, blooms in the fall.
Another good source here in Oregon is Greer Gardens. They specialize in rhodies, but have a good plant list for other stuff too. I've been growing several fragrant rhodies that smell divine - lots of scent floating on the air.
I love roses but am not crazy about the look of rose gardens, and fragrance is the theme here. I dream of gardens that look like Morrisnoor's!


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

If it were me I would have a look at Sally and Andy Wasowski's Native Texas Plants: Landscapes Region by Region (1988, 1997), which you probably have on your shelves already. For those that don't know it, it makes delightful and inspiring reading even for those who are only Texans by ancestry or imagination, like me. I bought a copy on a visit to my relatives in Houston and have pored over it ever since. (I even bought copies for my cousins and sisters who are scattered in other states.)

The Wakowskis have also written several other books about gardening in Texas that look interesting.

That said, the salvias are a promising group to investigate.

I would never want to restrict myself to native plants exclusively, however. I like my garden plants to evoke associations, including ones of people and countries distant in time and space.

I can understand a desire for plants that don't need intensive care, though, and planting natives is a socially responsible as well as an interesting and satisfying thing to do. Plus, no others accord so well with "the spirit of place."


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Patricia,
Thanks for pointing out about the crape myrtles and JBs. I've read that before but had forgotten it. Would cotoneaster work as a shrub? I always thought it was a big viny thing - maybe I'm thinking of something else. Do butterfly bushes reseed? It seems to me that there was some reason that these were pests. What is an acoma?
Albertine,
I thought Sarcococcas were shade plants? I've put mine in the shade, but they are either unhappy with that situation or they are VERY slow growers. I do not know about S. salicifolia. Matter of fact, I've never looked at Cistus, I've always shopped at Forrest Farm.
Michelle,
One of my next projects (after the floor in my house is done and after the new veggie garden is put in) is to put up a chicken coop and raise chickens and guineas. I can't wait!
Do any of you know of any hollies that would fit that size limitation? Or boxwoods that don't need pruning - ever - to hold a really nice shape?
Ceterum,
Have you seen that they've hybridized some short lorepetalums? Some stay below 2', others stay at 4'. They are super expensive, though, and so far I've only bought 1. I think burgundy is a great color in the garden.


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salvias

Monarda,
I don't have that book. I'll look into it. Salvias are wonderful plants here - I've got lots and lots of different kinds. The blues salvias look so good next to roses.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

SH&G sells the short lorapetalum (Chinese fringe plants) but I have not found them to be as pretty as the bigger ones. They always look like they need something, water, fertilizer, vitamins or something.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Patricia said what I was going to suggest, the Philadelphus. They are so spectacular in spring. I had some down around Conroe (don't know the variety, but my grandmother always referred to them as English Dogwood) and they were a spectacle every year. Also, bridal wreath spireas should be good. Some of the tougher tall garden phlox should grow for you. That magenta one did well for me in Texas, and it smells good.

--Ron


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

  • Posted by luanne z9,Richmond CA (My Page) on
    Mon, May 26, 08 at 14:06

Carrie, I plant plumbago intermittently, it can grow into fine large bushes, with blue flowers that look well with roses and can even go into bouquets qith them. I also grow geraniums with roses and they make the roses look spectacular with the right color combos and lavendar if you can grow it takes so little water and is such a nice foliage contrast.
Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com
Over between the trellis and the fence is a huge lavendar plant that likes the roses very well.
la


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

No, the cotoeaster I know is not a vine. I know there is more than one and maybe you are talking about firethron a/k/a pyracantha which many people espallier but certainly not a vine.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

CWeathersby, you are a kindred spirit in your obsession with fragrant plants -- which I share, in spades.

I just want to add that there are several butterfly bushes that are supposed to be wonderfully fragrant that are not quite hardy here in the north. Buddleia argentea is one. No idea if it will grow well in Texas.

Then there are the bulbs -- chinese narcissus and jonquils of all kinds, amaryllis belladonna, spider lily, to name a few -- that are intoxicatingly fragrant. Freesias? Rain lilies?

There is a book by Mike Shoup and Liz Druitt about landscaping with antique roses that lists all kinds of native Texas companion plants for roses -- one that I remember is Mexican marigold. Don't know if it is still in print. You can often find out of print books on Amazon, or Abe Books, though. My favorite out-of-print book about fragrance is Helen van Pelt Wilson and Leonie Bell's The Fragrant Year, but don't get me started. To me gardening and reading about gardening are one and the same.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

I have the large loropetalum and it blooms in winter, spring, summer and fall. I love that plant. Good shape, not invasive, nice foliage and beautiful flowers. J. C.Raulston brought it from China and recommended it for the southeast.

Mock orange is done in a week and a lot of varieties aren't even fragrant.

Plumbago (Cape Wort) maybe or may not be hardy in zone 7. I had one for many years coming back and this year it didn't though it was planted on the south side of the house protected but large rose bushes. Who knows? Worth trying though. Hardy Plumbago has darker blue flowers, foliage turns reddish in fall - it is either a ground cover or a small shrub. I love it.

False Indigo (Baptisia australis) is an excellent shrub - the white flowering variety blooms way before the roses start blooming; stems come up like black asparagus. There is a blue and yellow blooming variety. I love to use the leaves in flower arrangements.

Caryopteris - in various shades of blue; usually blooms late summer and fall. Foliage is gray but there is a new one that has chartreuse two-tone foliage; it is beautiful.

This is the only pre-digital photo I found of our Pineapple Guava

Photobucket


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

What about daylilies? Lots of colors just like roses, easy to collect just like roses, and a lot less work than roses. They get along well with roses too.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Wow I can't believe the southerns didn't suggest Rose of Sharon and Hibiscus...they don't smell but they take the heat and pump out blooms.

Just be careful what you plant. You're in the country and some stuff reseeds and is poisonous to livestock so do your research and check with professionals.


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RE: Replace roses with ... What?

Salvia, rosemary, lavender, ruellias will do well if not over-watered. Shrubs tend to outgrow their spaces and as they get bigger I'd worry about root competition. Evergreens never seem to QUIT growing, too bad since they look so darn cute in the 5-gal size. Plumbagos and caryopteris would be great, I had them in my north Texas garden & they did fine.


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