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Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
Tue, May 20, 14 at 15:12

The Celebration in El Cerrito CA is a lovely event. A chance to see wonderful labeled specimens of roses and greet some rosey friends.

My garden is filling up but that didn't stop me from making some purchases. Vintage Gardens has always sold there but this year the offerings were under the auspices of Friends of Vintage Roses, the non-profit that has taken over Gregg's garden.

I was happy to be able to purchase some of the very last of Vintage's roses that I assume were the tail end from the sale.

President Willermoz HP

Prince Charles d'Arenberg HP

Maurice Bernardin HP

Frederic II de Prusse HCh

and from "he who shall not be named" (for newcomers, this is a vendor who isn't allowed to post on the forum anymore)

Phil's Hot Pink Perpetual Damask P

Compte de Chambord HP or P to replace the mislabeled Jacques Cartier that came from Heirloom recently.

I know Jeri got Tea rose from Vintage that she's thrilled about.

Diane


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

  • Posted by vettin z6b Northern VA (My Page) on
    Tue, May 20, 14 at 15:20

Envious of you on the west coast that you have these events :)


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RE: Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

Diane,

It's such a relief to know that someone else here has Frederic II de Prusse! I was worried Texas may do my little band in and it's good to know another plant of it is in great hands!

Josh

P.S. Also envious of the events y'all have on the West Coast :)


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I'm so grateful to all of you on the forum who have provided homes for so many rare roses. You have joined the League of Vintage Gardens Preservationists.

Diane, it sounds like you and I are in parallel Comte de Chambord universes. I received a replacement band from RVR this spring and it seems to be genuine. I am curious about Phil's Hot Pink Perpetual Damask. I think you purchased it from a grower whose roses are now sold by Heirloom. If so, maybe I should check Heirloom's site for sales in OR?

I'll be following forum threads to hear how the HPs you (and Josh) purchased fare in your garden(s). Many HPs seem to grow quite healthily here in PDX and I've developed a great appreciation for them. In general, they are less disease prone than equally fragrant bourbons. Portland/damask perpetuals have been some of my best all around roses.

Please post photos of your new additions when they bloom. And congratulations on both your Celebration purchases and your score from the remaining Vintage treasures in spite of the challenges of ordering via email during the final purchase frenzy!

Carol


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Tue, May 20, 14 at 18:20

Hi vettin and Josh and Carol. We are VERY fortunate here in the Bay Area to have a multitude of sources for antique roses. Vintage Gardens has been a wonderful resource (one of the first, if not the first after the original Roses of Yesterday and Today in Soquel CA.) Also at the top of my list is the Sacramento Cemetery and San Jose Heritage Garden sales that occur yearly. Keeping my fingers crossed that the new Friends of Vintage Roses will continue to offer treasures from Gregg's garden in the coming years.

Josh, the band I got of Frederic II was huge. HMF lists it as an 8ft grower so hopefully it will do well for both of us with such a strong constitution. Hybrid Chinas seem happy here. Going to be hard to wait a year to see the blooms. I saw Pamela (mendocino rose) on Sunday. She has Frederic in her garden as well and loves it. She pointed it out to me and said to just get it!

Carol, I've given up on Bourbons (sob sob) but am joyful that the HPs and ESPECIALLY the Portlands do so well. Be on the lookout at Heirloom for Rosa damascena semperflorens. It's a fantastic Portland and not lanky like damascena bifera.. I doubt the vendor I purchased CdC from is the one that Heirloom may be selling. This vendor grows grafted plants. I'll plant mine deep and hope their own roots grow.

Phil's Hot Pink is thought by some to be the HP General Allard.

Diane

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosa damascena semperflorens


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I talked about that, late Sunday, with Gregg -- that at this point in history, what we can do for rare roses is, simply, grow a few.

Then, learn to propagate, and give them away as gifts.

Be a refuge . . .

"Wanted: a refuge for the old roses where they may be found again when tastes change"
-- George Paul, RHS Journal, 1896.


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Tue, May 20, 14 at 18:32

Love the quote, Jeri. Still timely...or timely again now that the antique rose craze is slowing down until the next cycle.

Diane


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Diane, thank you for all the detailed and helpful info! Also, I realized my phrasing with regard to Comte was misleading. To RVR's credit, the original and imposter Comte de Chambord did NOT come from that nursery. The correct replacement rose did. Carol


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Yeah, Diane -- I've thought about that quote often, over the past few years. I know what it was like when there were almost no places to buy Old Roses, and I hope we don't go THAT far down hill.

But that's where we stand. We plant them because we love them. But it's important at this point to plant at least a few things that are genuinely endangered.

And, gee . . . ALL of us can do THAT.


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Diane, I was so pleased to see you picking up those roses for your garden. The Phil's Hot Pink Perpetual Damask I have had for many years. I bought it from Mendocino Heirloom Roses. I am growing General Allard. I don't think they are the same(not adamantly convinced). I bought one of the Vintage roses too(couldn't help it) I felt like I wanted to plant and protect the N 92 Nanjing rose.


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Tue, May 20, 14 at 21:29

Carol, always happy to share info. Hoping some day to visit Portland and walk through your garden with you then watch some film noir. We have friends moving to Portland in a few years and have other friends there too so not out of the question.

Jeri, yes we can and we will. And again we're fortunate to have the cemeteries and public gardens that are maintaining old rose collections. But I feel Europe and the UK are way ahead of us.

Pamela, always good to see you and never enough time. I think we could talk day and night about roses given the chance. I had Phil's Hot Pink in the past but lost it so trying again. I don't think it's General Allard either. Just passing the info along.

Wish Teas were happier here. I would love to grow N92 Nanjing but glad it will be in yours and Jeri's gardens. If I recall correctly, Sacramento has one as well.

Thanks for pointing out Frederick II to me. We (You Josh and I are members of the Hybrid China fan club.)

Is Mendocino Heirloom Roses selling plants these days? They have a Facebook page.

I remember whenJoyce Demitts and Virginia Hopper were selling roses. I miss them.

Diane


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I keep thinking of Great Britain and their gardens with the national collection of this or that plant and wondering why the U.S. doesn't and how we could. We have a much larger and more diverse country. Is there a place in the U.S. that would accommodate, say, teas and chinas as well as gallicas and albas?

Cath


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I don't think that Mendocino Heirloom Roses is selling right now. I guess it could be possible in the future since Shannon has put up a Facebook page. I know she's working through the collection and organizing it. It wasn't a large list, but they sold some really great roses. I nearly bought them all back in the day.


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Wed, May 21, 14 at 11:19

Thanks Pamela. Please give us all a heads up if she starts selling again.

Diane


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I miss Joyce Demits as a rose source. She had wonderful things. (Her garden still does.)

My "Setzer Noisette" (see below) came from Joyce -- and she was kind enough to tell me what she knew of its background. It was something of a "Passalong Plant."

And I think "Passalong" is going to become very, very important. If you have something rare, SHARE IT.


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I love it Jeri!

Is it only available passed along or does anyone sell it?


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I'm glad you mentioned Roses of Yesterday and Today. Those who are new to old roses may not know about them. They have gone through some rough times but do survive. Under first Francis E Lester, then Will Tillotson, and then Dorothy Stemler, they really were the original old rose nursery in the United States, so much so that the great Graham Stuart Thomas came to visit them back when he was building his collection.

Folly


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I agree that it will be our duty to see that the antique roses are not lost to time, especially the uncommon ones. I really cannot thank Connie at Hartwood enough for taking in a band of a rare Alba I received from Vintage. With Chambersville down the road I'm hoping to propagate rare roses and share them with them so that they will have a permanent home and are publicly accessible. My hope is that they will join in the preservation effort.

I too am hoping that the Friend of Vintage will not only preserve Mr. Lowery' collection, but they can find a way to see the roses there propagated and distributed so they will not fall out of the public eye or reach.

Diane,

F2dP is a fantastic rose, and Medocino have great advice when she told you to snatch it up. My little band hunkered down through all of our ice, and is growing like gangbusters right now. It's a great cultivar.

Carol,

As always you are welcome to anything from my garden! And that goes for anyone on the forums. I need to update my rose list, but I have a few gems that should be shared.

Josh


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RE: Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

Pamela, I can't find your email here or on HMF, but I have a question. Concerning two roses you grown. My email works from my profile here. Thanks


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Kippy- Rose Petals Nursery in Florida carries Setzer Noisette I believe. I had to look it up after I saw one of Jeri's pictures last year. It's certainly good that someone carries it, but it's unfortunate that they're now the only commercial source I can recall of several found roses from California including Barbara's Pasture Rose, Benny Lopez, and Old Town Novato. It would be a pleasant surprise to be totally wrong about this, but I wish someone in state or at least a bit closer carried them as well.

Jay


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Jay. I saw that too.

Not sure anyone in Florida can ship to SoCal I have a lot of citrus trees so I am also worried about buying from Florida. But thanks


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I brought several roses home from Florida after the conference last fall. They were certified free of the bugs of concern, definitely chili thrips and if I recall correctly also Asian citrus psyllid.

However, they did trip the security alarm in the airport. It probably helped that I had the appropriate certificates with me.

Folly


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RE: Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

Folly

I am sure any roses they would ship would be fine. I am just paranoid. Besides. I have a new letter carrier and it is always iffy that I will get my mail delivered to me and in a timely manner. (Still grumbling about her and the rose babies that took 2 weeks to go 70 miles..... Lol). On the other hand I get to deliver the mail in my box not addressed to me most every night

Oh how I miss my retired carrier (and am thankful for ups bringing my stuff today)


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Wed, May 21, 14 at 21:38

Josh, I'm excited about Frederic. I think he's going to be a brute of a rose and he'll need strength to survive in my jungle.

Once again, note to self...learn to propagate.

Rosefolly, sorry we only got to wave at each other Sunday. I remember going to Roses of Y & T in the 1980s after Miriam Wilkins instilled me with rose lust. I occasionally return and 2 years ago got a Felicite Parmentier which is high on my list of favorite roses.

Jeri, that's a gorgeous specimen of Setzer's Noisette.

Diane


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Fogrose, I felt the same way. The only downside of the event is that so many rosey friends were there that I only got to speak briefly to most of them.

On the other hand, I got to speak at least briefly to so many rose friends all at one time!

Folly


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Joyce Demits was the only nursery (Tanglewood Gardens) to offer "Setzer Noisette." She brought it home from Arkansas, where she obtained it from a young man who obtained it from a Setzer Family Member.

When she closed the nursery, she donated one of her last plants of Setzer to be sold at the HRF Seminar, some years ago, in El Cerrito.

I bought it there, and passed it along to others -- including the Sacramento City Cemetery, and that Noisette garden, near Charleston.

For us, it's a wonderful pillar climber, with all of the good features of the other cluster-flowering Noisettes descending in one way or another from 'Champney's Pink Cluster' and 'Blush Noisette' -- with a background of R. moschata and 'Old Blush.'

In climates where those roses prosper, it's a winner.


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Kippy, I sent you my email address.
Jeri, I miss Joyce's nursery too. She just lives over the hill from me. The roses that I got from her are some of the most special that I grow. I'm growing along some great climbers now from the cutting expedition last Fall .


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The Heritage Rose Foundation tried to get some traction under the idea of a national collection but never succeeded. I'll be hearing about the British scheme during the Mottisfont conference so may come home newly inspired but it's very hard to do such a thing. They are trying to do that with the Anne Belovich collection in Chambersville and with the Texas found roses and Teas and Chinas that they have there, but conditions are tough.

In the meantime, we have places like the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, the Friends of Vintage and the Sacramento cemetery. We have Setzer Noisette and I hope to have it propagated for next year's Open Garden.

If a Florida nursery is licensed to sell to California, I would not worry about any pests coming our way. However, far better to have some west coast commercial sources.
Anita


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Some of the FL nurseries are licensed to sell to CA, others are not. It's one of those things you'd have to check individually.

We have, in the past, sent cuttings from our garden to a few nurseries. Presently, both Los Angeles and Ventura Counties are under plant quarantine, because of Asian Citrus Psyllid -- so we cannot send cuttings out of our area.

I thought you'd like to see "Setzer Noisette" blooms. As you see, they're typical of that whole "swarm" of cluster-flowering Noisettes, all related to 'Champney's Pink Cluster' and/or 'Blush Noisette,' and ranging in habit from robust climbers to bushes, to dwarves.

(Well, we can and do share plants with folks down in Los Angeles County.)

Perhaps one day that pest will be controlled, and we will again be able to share roses in that manner.


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I have thought to myself that the problem with establishing a national collection here is that conditions vary so greatly across the United States that there are few locations where all the roses we would want to include can truly thrive. Of course the climate varies in the British Isles as well, but the extremes there are not as great.

The old European once bloomers don't grow well in the warm parts of the US because they suffer so from lack of winter chill. The wonderful teas, chinas, and noisettes suited to the warm areas cannot survive where the European OGRs do their best. The mid-southeast is a good temperature compromise, but unfortunately its intense humidity brings with it a heavy disease load that affects many classes of roses. Some parts of the west can provide the temperature range needed without the crippling humidity, but with the dry air comes periodic water shortages.

I do think that a set of rich regional rose collections is probably our best bet, and indeed that is what we currently have. Perhaps they could be made somehow more "official" in some manner. A recognized status could be useful in getting those collections through periodic difficult times.

Folly


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Fri, May 23, 14 at 16:59

May be a pipe dream but it would be great to have some sort of umbrella organization that operates on a national basis to protect the roses found in old cemeteries, working with whatever religious organization is in charge of the land to educate the work crews to prune judiciously rather than mow to the ground. As we know, many wonderful old roses are found in these old resting places.

Diane


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  • Posted by luxrosa Richmond, california (My Page) on
    Fri, May 23, 14 at 19:56

I bought a Phils Hot Pink Damask Perpetual too, can anyone tell me its' mature size? I live in the east Bay, near San Francisco, ca
I was thrilled to get an Alliance Franco-Russe, which I've not seen in commerce for a couple years, as well as a 'Susan Louise' for five bucks from the same vendor as sold me the d.p..
There were several H.P.s on display in vases that I'd never seen before, big red and mauve beauties.
So many beautiful roses on display, Luanne let me pick from her collection and I was able to bring 50+ blooms. Her Parkinsons has been progressing so she was not able to attend this year. We're neighbors at Atchinson village.
I was thrilled that I won the Australian Tea rose book in the raffle!!!
The Old Rose Celebration is one of the big highlights of the year for me.

Lux

P.S. Love and thanks to the good folks who put on the O.R.C..


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Luxrosa, I went to visit Luanne on the day of the Celebration. We usually visit on that occasion. She told me that you came to pick roses from her garden. You certainly made her very happy to be a part of the event, even though she could not be there in person this year. BTW, I did not know you were a neighbor of hers until now.

Luanne has made many friends on this forum over the years. Unfortunately she no longer able to use the computer, and for that reason is not available either by email or Gardenweb.

Folly


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  • Posted by fogrose zone 10/sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Sat, May 24, 14 at 13:51

Lux, I'm reading anywhere from 4-6ft for Phil's Hot Pink on the web but I think 4feet is more likely. There's a posting from Alice Flores where she talks about it being smaller than Rose de Rescht.

Diane


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One day I will break away from my East Coast in mid-May and I will be there with all of you West Coasters at the Celebration. I will add visits to the gardens and nurseries to my dream plan ... soon, I hope.

No one here in the east has been able to maintain steam underneath old rose gatherings. I'm not the only one I know who has tried. The closest we have, that I know of, is the Rose Festival at the Old City Cemetery in Lynchburg, VA, in May each year. The garden there is beautiful, and there are lots and LOTS of roses for sale. In fact, if you're within commuting distance to Lynchburg, there are always roses left over and available for sale for weeks afterward.

As far as Florida nurseries shipping westward ... Cydney at Rose Petals and her husband worked for over a year to outfit their propagation and nursery area to conform with California Ag requirements. (I was really pleased to hear that she has Setzer's Noisette. It's a good rose here in hot, humid VA ... blackspots some, about the same as Champneys, Blush Noisette, etc.)


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Phil's Hot Pink has stayed at 2 feet for me for at least 12 years.
The collections scheme at the HRF was a great idea. It just needed someone with time and drive to organize.


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Kippy- I just saw that Rogue Valley has a rose titled 'Stelzer Noissette." I would guess that it's simply an incorrectly typed name for Setzer Noisette, but it's worth asking about at the very least.

Jay


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Luxrosa and Rosefolly,

Would you please let Luanne know that Kate and Joe send their love? We've tried to reach her a few times before visiting California recently. We used to always coordinate with Bluesibe but after dear Carol's passing had no response so I now know why.

Best wishes to all old friends on the forum.

Vic's Gardenkeeper, 400 roses and going strong


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My Frederic II de Prusse didn't make it. It was doing fine one day and then dead two days later. Completely shriveled up very quickly. :(


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Rogue has Setzer Noisette??? I wonder where in the heck they got it? No one else carries it, nowadays (Joyce Demits DID -- that's where ours came from.)

Never mind. If they DO have it, I recommend it highly, for conditions in which the cluster-flowering Noisettes prosper.

Its only flaw is one it shares with other cluster-flowering Noisettes of the Blush Noisette type. It is not self-cleaning, and the blooms turn brown. When I finally get tired of looking at them, I deadhead the rose. When I do, it will hurry to repeat.

This is Setzer Noisette, in mid-May of this year.


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I've contacted Rogue, both with the name correction, and to offer photos. :-)


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I hope it turns out to be Setzer Noisette, Jeri! It was only visible through the alphabetical list and not within the class page, so it wasn't likely to be commonly found by those perusing the RVR site.

Jay


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  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 21, 14 at 0:18

I've noticed that there are a few gems lying similarly hidden on the RVR website. It seems as though there are roses which were entered with just enough information for them to be purchased, but missing info on class, color, scent, etc. which prevents them from appearing when searching by any of those criteria. Considering their rather large inventory, if there's something you're seeking, try looking alphabetically. That's how I stumbled upon their "Louis Philippe from Florida" and "Reine des Violettes from Florida" (though I didn't end up buying them).

:-)

~Christopher


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RE: Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

FYI, Setzer Noisette is good here in VA, too. (my plant came from one of the CA rose auctions a few years ago.)

Rose Petals Nursery has it in stock.


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RE: Celebration of Old Roses purchases/including from Vintage

I'm glad Setzer Noisette has made its way East again. After all, if the family story is correct, it came originally from Virginia.

Connie, I suspect that my DH propagated that plant you got. He propagated the one in the Sacramento City Cemetery. And I am really pleased to see it edging its way back into commerce.


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