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Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Posted by aptosca CA9 (My Page) on
Wed, May 28, 14 at 17:55

I know what New Dawn (1930) looks like but can anyone tell me what the Historic (1620) one looks like? Does it go by another name?
Thanks.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

I've never heard of this. Where did you hear about it?


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

It was offered during a trade. I did a Google search and came up with nothing. I hate to appear like a dummy but I guess I will ask the person who is doing the trade.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

I've never heard of it.
Can't find any literature that mentions it.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

No. Nor could I. I went back to my oldest books, and Modern Roses III . . . Got nuthin'.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Could the 6 be a typo for 9? There would still be some explaining to do about the 20 which should be 30 for the New Dawn we know.

Cath


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Thu, May 29, 14 at 0:02

I'm wondering if "New Dawn" is the end-product of something akin to the "telephone game", and the original name for the rose was something that sounded somewhat similar. Perhaps "Dijon" morphed into "New Dawn." Or perhaps "1930" morphed into "1620."

Could you post a pic of the rose you received? What did the person who traded you the rose have to say about how it looks/grows?

:-)

~Christopher


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

I haven't received it yet. I am curious so willing to trade for what ever it is. They also said they had New Dawn (1930) so wasn't a typo or mistake. I will let you know when or if I get it.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Aptosca, 1620? This is quite the rose mystery! I keep tuning in to read comments and updates. I haven't a clue as to identity, of course. Maybe your source will tell you that its Historic New Dawn is an old European garden rose which arrived in Massachusetts with the Mayflower. A perfect name for a ship carrying a rose. Allowing my imagination to wander...out loud. :-) Carol


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

The 1620's had very few 'named' roses. Even the early plant lists from Long Island (early 1800s) had mostly species.

Here is a link that might be useful: new dawn search


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

My better search page for the period from 1600 to 1900 had the words "New Dawn" and "Rose" in one poem and nowhere else.

Samuel Johnson immortalized it in his "The English Poets: Hughes, (1770) page 250

"Transplanted glories in her features smile, And a new dawn of beauty gilds their isle. So So from the sea when Venus rose serene, and by the Nymphs......"


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

That is interesting, Ann! Yes, there aren't many candidates for such a rose in 1620, are there? I have several books on historical roses and rose gardens which contain lists of the usual suspects: Apothecary's Rose, some species, etc. I tried doing a little research, too. There were a few people named "Rose" circa 1620 in and around Plymouth. The year is such a coincidence that I thought maybe someone or some nursery in present times might have decided to rename a rose grown by early English settlers in Massachusetts. Not so much. Carol


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

The very combination of words, 'New Dawn' seems completely wrong for the Seventeenth Century. It reeks of the 'Contempo Talk' of the early Twentieth Century. Of course, I'm prejudiced against the word 'Dawn', which like 'Hawk', is unpronounceable in all known English dialects. Hearing the way it's pronounced down here would probably prove fatal to outsiders. And then there was the outbreak of 'Dawn Names' inflicted upon little girls of my generation in the South and Lower Midwest (Mysti Dawn, Cheryl Dawn, Darla Dawn, Crackka Dawn...)

Anyway, considering the extensive written history of 'Dr. W. VanFleet' and its sport, 'New Dawn' (New Dawn being the first patented plant in the history of the World, if I remember correctly), I doubt that ALL of the rosarians assembled here would have been able to MISS reading about the 1620 version before now. And believe me: if someone had discovered an ancient text (and illustration, perhaps) mentioning the New Dawn Rose (maybe in a Transylvanian monastery previously isolated from the world?), along with a SURVIVING CULTIVAR of said rose, then the news would have been splashed across the Rose World, and we would have ALL heard about it.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Plan 9, I can't pronounce "coerce" or "poem" crisply. My residual Texas drawl latches onto my tongue and tangles it.

WAY off topic, but I did find references to "new dawn" in a textual analysis of the Torah--Esther and Psalms. That's pretty ancient. However, back to roses....


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Thu, May 29, 14 at 16:22

How would an advanced search on HMF go using the number ?


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

If someone has a HMF "premium membership package" (which I don't) a search can be done on the advanced search feature. I'll bet nothing arises since Jeri Jennings and Malcolm Manners couldn't find any trace of this rose during their research.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Here is what the person wrote back. Interesting story. Typo with the date?

"The Historic New Dawn...I call it Historic to distinguish it from the New Dawn developed in 1932...is a vigorously growing climber. It blooms for about 3 weeks in the spring with one of the most magnificent scents...lovely clusters of white blooms, each about 1.5” in size so it could be classed as a miniature, but there is nothing miniature about the plant in the landscape. We cut it to within 2’ tall each summer after it has bloomed...and it grows 12 to 15’ before the next blooming in spring.
I got my original cuttings from the Director of Kew Gardens when we were in London in the 1970s...I was able to spend several days there in a rosarian workshop. We were invited to take cuttings from Kew..
Historic New Dawn has no other name that I...or Kew Gardens...knows about. The Director called it New Dawn on East Gate. He did know that the rose was planted on on the Gate in 1860 because it was tagged with a date...I changed the name to Historic New Dawn to keep it distinct from the 1930s developed rose, which must be a descendant of the HND judging from their similar growth habits....just different bloom scent, different bloom color."


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Thank you, Aptosca! Ah, mystery solved...or sort of. Dr. Van Fleet which sported New Dawn dates to circa 1910. Maybe your rose is a related wichuraina hybrid since its growth is similar (although I think the first documented ones appear around 1890)? Wow! This is quite a puzzle. Perhaps Campanula or other forum members in England are familiar with your mystery rose and its equally mysterious history and might have something to add. Anyway, what a wonderful rose you've acquired! A rare antique indeed. Carol


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by vettin z6b Northern VA (My Page) on
    Thu, May 29, 14 at 19:07

So maybe I have multiflora on my mind...but that is the first thing I think of when I hear 1.5" clusters of white blooms...any photos?


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Once blooming LARGE roses were coming out of Baltimore in the early 1800's. They were from R. setigera. Most that I've grown are capable of eating a garden gate.

One hint of a setigera origin might be the tendency in normal years to bloom a bit later than the main spring bloom.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

No picture yet but said she would find one. I wonder if it is this one I found on the Kew Garden's website.
china rose

I love this archway. I wish I had known about this garden when I was in London in 1995.
archway


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

But this rose was not known in the west, in 1620. And I don't think there's a date for its existence in China. Anyhow, I've never heard this rose called anything like "New Dawn." It's a species.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

I hope it's an exciting new (old) Alba! It probably isn't. But I really like Albas.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Fri, May 30, 14 at 0:57

I bet it's a species or species-hybrid, wild-collected or found as a random seedling in the garden. I don't know why it popped into my head, but I immediately remembered the picture of 'R. mulliganii' from "Classic Roses" growing at Kew (my brain is freaky). As I remember the pic (I've lent the book to my "new gardener" coworker friend to spread the addiction), it looked like it was free-standing, or growing on an old tree or post, so it's not the same as the rose "growing East gate" (I'm guessing that it's literally on a gate....no?).

ANYWAY....it might be worthwhile to see what roses are growing at Kew. Now, if this isn't a registered rose, it won't appear on HelpMeFind, but searching through their garden inventory might set you on the path. Maybe start off at the species roses. Or, perhaps a more direct route, try contacting the garden via email and asking.

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew at HelpMeFind


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Christopher - Thanks for the link and information. Once I receive the cutting and have it growing, so can send a picture, I will send them a note and ask.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Yes, contacting Kew is probably the best bet. Maybe your source hasn't spoken with that garden in awhile and new info is available. I pulled out my Classic Roses, following Christopher's brilliant lead. The pre 1880s date narrows the field considerably. Many white ramblers seem to be late 19th century through 20th century cultivar releases and western discoveries. Some earlier ones include: Rambling Rector (a "very old cultivar"), The Garland (1835), and R. multiflora (late18th c./early 19th). I'm sure there are others. Please post if you discover a positive (or reasonably positive) ID, Aptosca. I haven't died of curiosity yet, but I might. :-) Carol


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by vettin z6b Northern VA (My Page) on
    Fri, May 30, 14 at 5:35

Is it possible that 1620 is not a date at all, just a number to id it. It sounds like the date it was tagged with was 1860 unless I misread the post above...


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

White clusters, strong fragrance, short bloom period, and vigor sound multiflora-ish, probably a hybrid since the blooms are over 1". Check for fringed stipules.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Fri, May 30, 14 at 13:00

It could also be one of the other members of the Synstylae group of rose species, or a hybrid of one.

:-)

~Christopher


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Entering into the pit of confusion.

What does anybody know about the history of R. brunonii? My knowledge apparently both begins and ends with the fact that it isn't R. moschata.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Following Aptosca's latest message I've been assuming that 1680 is actually 1860, but I could be jumping to conclusions.

Mad Gallica, welcome to the pit of confusion! :-) Rosa brunonii would fit datewise, but I think it would grow larger than the description, even when cut back severely...but perhaps it's not such a monster in England? Where's Campanula?


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Mad Gallica, as I recall, in the mystery of the musk rose, Graham Thomas mentions that in the beginning of his research, he thought that the plant at Kew was the real Rosa moschata.

However he realizes that it is in effect, Rosa brunonii, which was originally imported from Nepal in 1812.

One of the major differences between the two roses is that Rosa brunonii flowers in summer, whereas the musk rose flowers in late summer to frost (in England)

I'm sure the more erudite will jump in and give us more details....


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

I plan to visit Kew in a few weeks. Will try to check out the East Gate site for a climber that matches this description.
Malcolm


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Thank you, Malcolm! I must be part cat. The curiosity.... Aptosca, I haven't followed a thread this closely in ages! I've hardly picked up my vintage mystery books. Carol


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Malcolm - Please let us know what you find. I too am very curious.

Carol - Never expected this kind of reaction. Hope it has entertained you. I have found it interesting.

Thanks to EVERYONE for their replies!


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Aptosca, Looking at a map of Kew, there does not appear to be an east gate. Is it the same as Victoria Gate, which is on the east side of the garden? Or do you know the exact location?


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Urk - completely useless here, I am afraid to say. The last time I was at Kew, I spent the entire day lurking in the new Alpine house (I was really, really obsessed with tiny hepaticas and androsace), with the last couple of hours scrutinising the minke house for ancient Japanese woodworking techniques. I was astounded by the archway pergola as my recollections of roses at both Wisley and Kew were a bit, well....meh. Certainly not grown how I grow roses.....just lots and lots of not very nice HTs in rows. The rose garden has been replanted at Kew when the Palm House was rejigged.....but since they are all Austins, I have even less desire to see this sort of display style. My own local botanics, where Graham Stuart Thomas worked alongside the great rose geneticist, Dr.C.C.Hurst, has fallen into sad decay with nearly all the old roses either dead or dying.....even at the height of the rose year, it is a miserable display of neglect (obvs, I have offered to volunteer and been rudely rebuffed....or offered a place in the ticket office or tea room!!) I suspect an awakening interest in all things rosy but during the 90's and first decade of the 21C, roses had practically vanished from the horticultural arena apart from a few stalwarts.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Malcolm - I do not know where the East Gate is since I have never been there. It was information I received from the person whom I am trading with and who was there in the 1970's. All they said was the East Gate, no more information. Sorry.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 6, 14 at 16:07

Malcolm, is it or was it possible to talk to staff that are responsible for the roses, they might be able to shed some light on the rose in question.

Regards David.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Yes certainly, we can ask when there. We'll try to find it!
Malcolm


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Hi there, I've only just signed up so please bear with me. Hope I won't do anything wrong.

Anyway, I live quite close to Kew Gardens and go there a lot so I thought I could maybe help with this. There is no East Gate but maybe it's been renamed to something else.
I've had a look at all the gates on the east side of the gardens and the only rose I found that could possibly be it is next to Lion Gate. It looks like some sort of species rose. Maybe brunonii but I'm no expert. I have to admit that the white single species roses all sort of look the same to me. I couldn't find a sign with a name on it. It's best seen from outside the gardens because you can't really get close to it from the inside.

I also wanted to add that the replanted rose garden is not all Austins. There are a lot of Austins but also a lot of Antiques.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Thanks Hoverfly9. I certainly don't recall seeing a climbing rose next to the Victoria Gate, so perhaps it is the Lion Gate. There's a good R. brunonnii in the Chelsea Physic Garden, if you wanted to compare. Are they flowering now? It's still a couple weeks until we'll get there to have a look.
Malcolm


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Yes, they are flowering now. Not sure if it'll still be flowering in a couple of weeks time.
I suppose I could try to get some photos next week so we don't miss the flowering period?


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Thank you, Hoverfly, for joining in the quest. Pics would be wonderful if you can manage them. Some of us (especially me?) are soooo curious. Malcolm, I 'm looking forward to your follow-up in a couple of weeks. Carol


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

If the rose is brunonii, one thing you can't miss is the fragrance. It's basically the same as a musk, with the fragrance coming principally from the stamens. Very powerful. Blooms in great profusion.

Below see "Castro-Breen White Climber" from San Juan Bautista, CA -- now believed to be R. brunonii.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

the link below and the 5 photos following it in that set are R. brunonii at the Chelsea Physic Garden, London.
Malcolm

Here is a link that might be useful: R. bunonii


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Thanks for all the info on brunonii. I'll get down there on Monday and try to get some decent pictures. I don't remember it being particularly fragrant, so it's probably something else.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

I got some pictures. I did actually find another rose near a gate when I walked back along the outside of the gardens so I took some photos of it, too.

Let's have the rose on lion gate first, though. Here is the whole plant (or as much of it can be seen from the angle)

Also more pictures coming up.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Close-ups of the flowers and foliage:


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

The next rose is near a gate (but probably not close enough to qualify as on it). The gate is not in use any more so I don't know its name but it is also on the east side of the gardens.
Here's a photo of gate and plant, so you can see its position and size. It seems to grow on a couple of other plants and is rather large. The area around that building is off-limits to visitors so I couldn't even get close to it from inside.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Here are a couple of closer pictures. I couldn't really tell where it ended and other plants started.

Anyway, I hope this helps. It might still be something completely different, you never know.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Hoverfly9 - Thanks for the pictures. I won't know till I get the cutting and hopefully it takes and blooms.


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RE: Historic New Dawn (1620)?

Great photos, Hoverfly! The rose looks a lot like Rosa brunonii. Aptosca, please DO post pics of your rose when it arrives. What a story you will have to tell when friends tour your garden. :-) Carol


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