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jeff_zephyr

Did something really awful

jeff_zephyr
15 years ago

Today I went over the edge after seeing severe thrips damage on my climbers, all my HT's, the bourbons, and HP's. So, without thinking, I drove to the nearest nursery and bought Bayer 2-in-1. I applied it to most of my roses; I went online in the evening only to find out how poisonous the stuff in this product is. It kills dogs! I have been gardening organically until today. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to mitigate the damage that I have done. This is really bad.

Jeff

Comments (23)

  • catsrose
    15 years ago

    We've all done it, Jeff, so don't beat yourself up. It does help you understand how people resort to some of the off-the-wall violence. Not much you can do about it (except don't let your dog eat your roses). I don't know how long the stuff is effective but, since they want you to keep buying it, probably not all that long. You could remove new buds to keep bees from getting into the flowers, but if you are getting between flushes, that might not even be necessary. Meanwhile, hopefully it has made a dent in your thrips.

  • mendocino_rose
    15 years ago

    Please don't be too hard on yourself. I really understand your motivation. It's so upsetting to see bad things happening to your roses. Hopefully the stuff will dissapate. My feeling is that once you get started with poisons that you must continue because things get into an imbalance. I do hope it made a difference in the thrips.

  • anntn6b
    15 years ago

    And in the real world, when you kill thrips, you kill off predaceous thrips as well. (And predaceous mites.)

  • buford
    15 years ago

    I'm not even sure that the 2-1 (the granules?) would help with thrips.

    I had them very bad this first flush. I also had other problems due to the cool wet spring, so I just let them go. Now the 2nd flush looks ok. I just hope that I didn't set myself up for more thrips next year..

    I did see 2 JB this AM. Isn't this fun!

  • jerijen
    15 years ago

    As far as material put into the soil, and sucked up by plants, I have been told it is an inefficient way to control things that affect the buds and new growth tips (say aphids and thrips).
    The problem lies with the limitations of the plant's hydraulic system.

    If you're speaking of Imidicloprid, it is a known trigger of seizures in vulnerable individuals.
    AND it is extremely toxic to bees.
    This is pretty serious, because the material does get eventually into the pollen.
    Then, the bees take the pollen home to feed their young.

    (Of course, Neem is also particularly dangerous to bees.)

    As to what do do NOW, WOW.
    I'm not sure how you get rid of it.
    Replace some of the soil in the area?

    Our local rose society had a talk this week by a beekeeper, and it was pretty eye-opening.

    It left me with the realization that, no matter who recommends it, we ought to research the effects of any material BEFORE we put it out in the garden.
    At the very least, a GOOGLE search on the active ingredients can tell you a lot about possible hazards.

    Jeri

  • lemecdutex
    15 years ago

    Perhaps leeching it out of the soil would be somewhat effective in getting rid of it (using a lot of water), I'm not sure.

    There's a wonderful book out there called "Teaming with Microbes" (cute double entendre in the name, I thought), and it opened my eyes to all that happens in the soil. There really is far more life going on in the soil than anything we see above it. It certainly cut down on any temptation on my part to use chemicals.

    Also, if you can find it, there's a new company called "Nature's Solutions" that sells pre-made Aerated Compost Tea, and it actually works! If you can get that, it can go a ways toward rebalancing your soil after the attack with the Bayer stuff. We used it here and have had great results.

    --Ron

  • jerijen
    15 years ago

    Good thinking, Ron.
    I'd guess anything that would help repair the soil would be a plus.
    And good for the plants, too.

    Jeri

  • jeff_zephyr
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Thanks guys. I have been watering the soil around the plants to hopefully leach it out. I read some more online and the disulfoton is only in the plants for about six weeks. However, it stays in the ground for about a year! I got the Bayer 2 in 1 instead of the 3 in 1, because the latter variety has imidacloprid. Supposedly, disulfoton does not hurt bees, so I thought it was a better choice. Not!

    Jeri, I agree with you about being very careful about putting anything in the garden. After this fiasco, I thought about using an organic mixture from my rose book made up with baking soda and BT; however, I found out that it kills the larvae of ladybugs and the BT has been blamed for the dwindling population of butterflies because it kills all caterpillars. You can't win for losing. Nonetheless, I agree; I will just have to sit it out and see what happens when the second flush comes along. If it continues to be bad, I will be xeriscaping with cactus.

    On another note, this whole incident makes me mad at all the rose pictures that I see in rose books; they do not tell you that in order to get those roses and rose gardens, one would have to dump so much chemicals into the ground. I think somebody should come up with a rose book that shows thrips damaged roses and other problems so that people would not have such unrealistic expectations. However, I blame myself for my lapse in judgement and it will never happen again.

    Jeff

  • jerijen
    15 years ago

    However, it stays in the ground for about a year!

    *** Well, if it makes you feel any better, the old ground-applied systemics used to stay in the soil for SIX years!

    But, look, there are a lot of roses around that are NOT bothered by thrips (for instance).
    "Disease-resistant" is different in every area.
    But we CAN give ourselves a head start by picking the most problem-free cultivars FOR OUR AREA.

    Jeri

  • lemecdutex
    15 years ago

    Jeff, I wouldn't let a temporary setback stop me from growing what I want to grow. You can have healthy roses without using any chemicals with improving your soil and using that Aerated Compost Tea (I know, we have 10,000 roses that are almost all disease and insect-free).

    --Ron

  • huttnem
    15 years ago

    Ron,

    I googled Nature's Solutions and then added aerated compost tea to the search and found nothing. Does this company have a website?

    Jeff, hope you find a way to purify and rebalance your soil.

  • veilchen
    15 years ago

    Jeff, BT will not kill ladybug larvae. It only kills true caterpillars such as the larvae of moths and butterflies.

  • catsrose
    15 years ago

    Jeff, I agree that we are set up to think we have to have perfect roses/rose bushes. I'm learning to settle for "good enough." I moved in here 2004 and have put in 200+ roses and am finally getting a feel for what does well and what doesn't, who gets eaten by what. Now I choose with greater care. I want my roses to be a part of an whole ecology and I try to plan accordingly, ie, I put in a critter pond, to help keep the deer at one end of the garden. I use milky spore for the jap beetles, and if black spot gets really bad, I'll use a fungicide once or twice, but that's as chemical as I get. If things get scruffy, that's okay. Not every rose is meant to live in every garden--and I think some of the hybrid teas that are so dependent on human interventions weren't meant to live at all.

  • bbinpa
    15 years ago

    I use the Keep It Simple Compost Tea Brewer. See below

    Here is a link that might be useful: Keep It Simple Web Site

  • jeff_zephyr
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Thanks Ron. I found the compost tea at Nature's Technology web site here http://www.nature-technologies.com/

    I will be ordering a couple of bags to fix my mistake.

    Jeff

  • lemecdutex
    15 years ago

    We also use the Keep it Simple Compost Tea brewer for ourselves, AND we use the Nature's technologies product when we don't have time to brew some up (our nights are so cold it takes 48 hours instead of the usual 24!). Both are great, the KIS system is probably cheapest in the long run if you're doing a lot of compost tea spraying like we are. NT also makes a brewer, which we would have tried had we known about them before buying the one we have!

    --Ron

  • amberroses
    15 years ago

    Do worry about it. It's done. You're not a serial killer or anything. I used that stuff all the time before I learned better. Now I use the spray fungicide, but I have bees, butterflies, lady bugs, etc... You seem to have learned your lesson too. Don't use it anymore. If you really want to make amends to nature, you can recycle, buy fuel efficient vehicles, etc...

    Watering a lot will probably speed up the dissipation rate, but it will also spread out the chemical. Don't plant any fruits or vegetables near the roses for a season or two.

  • Embothrium
    15 years ago

    I have a home landscape with many trees, shrubs, and groundcovers. I don't use pesticides except for an
    occasional shot of Roundup; I don't use fertilizers, unless I can determine a deficiency (most commonly
    nitrogen, which I add as fish meal only to plants that need it); I don't add anything else to the landscape
    except wood chips as an organic mulch. I don't have disease problems, I don't have insect pests, I have a
    healthy, organic landscape. This tells me that compost tea is not crucial for landscape health. If a
    landscape has serious soil or plant health problems, it is not likely that compost tea is going to solve the
    problem. Often in urban areas the problems are soil compaction, overuse of* fertilizers (especially
    phosphate), overuse of pesticides (especially fungicides which harm soil health), etc. Poor plant quality,
    improper plant siting and installation, and lack of proper aftercare also increase plant health problems.
    Adding compost tea will not solve these problems.

    The Bottom Line
    Â Composted mulch has been documented to suppress disease through a variety of methods
    Â Non-aerated compost teas may be useful in suppressing some pathogens on some plants
    Â Aerated compost teas have no scientifically documented effect as pathogen suppressors
    Â Overuse and runoff of compost teas could conceivably contribute to water pollution
    Â There is no "silver bullet" for plant health problems caused by poor soil health and improper plant
    selection and management

    *Emphasis mine

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Myth of Compost Tea Revisited

  • oldroser
    15 years ago

    Do not panic. Idminacloprid may kill dogs but it is also used as a tick repellent and killer applied to their skins (Advantic and others) so it must take an awful lot of the undiluted material to be toxic. I suspect once the spray has dried, your dogs have nothing to worry about. it sure hasn't affected mine. I live in tick country (and have managed to contract Lyme disease myself) so apply idminacloprid to dogs every month. I would not use it on a food crop but find it does a good job elsewhere.

  • lemecdutex
    15 years ago

    I'm afraid I can't really buy that "Myth of Compost Tea" article, as it doesn't seem to mention articles that may not be online, such as Dr. Elaine Ingaham's articles and study.

    It's probably true that if you've got a fully functioning healthy garden, with all the microbes that should be there, then you will not need compost tea. One of the main purposes of compost tea is to get the soil organisms going again after all the years most landscapes have suffered from damage due to chemicals of one form or the other, eliminating the good organisms, and allowing proliferation of the bad. Since most people do not have that situation, and it does take some time to get there, they should and likely would benefit from Actively Aerated Compost Tea.

    Other problems with that article is that it does not specify what was used for their compost, only to say that it met SoilFoodWeb specifications or approval. It also does not say how it was sprayed, at what concentration, etc. I think the article may be accurate in stating that there's not a lot of peer-reviewed evidence (I don't know, I'm not a researcher or scientist, and I'm not interested in becoming one), but that's not the same as the benefits being a myth. Results we've had indicate that there is a definite benefit, especially with new plantings and transplants, as well as from bare-root roses. Also, I am suspicious of any conclusion that would state that compost tea would pollute water, that would indicate such a high usage as to be improper usage, and likely isn't true in the first place.

    --Ron

  • aureliajulia
    15 years ago

    Hi Jeff,
    I post rarely, but I've been here (on Rosarian) since 1997.

    I looked up the main ingredient in the chemical compound, which turns out to be a pesticide named disulfoton.

    This is what I found through Cornell:

    Disulfoton is strongly bound to soil. Some metabolites are more mobile than the parent disulfoton in sandy loam, clay loam, and silty clay loam soils. Mobility decreases as organic matter content of soil increases. In addition, these metabolites can persist longer than disulfoton.

    In a study on sandy loam soils, disulfoton had a half-life of one week, and 90% loss in five weeks. One metabolite had a half-life of 8 to 10 weeks, and another was fairly stable for 42 weeks (10). Higher temperatures and higher chemical concen-trations appear to decrease the rates of metabolism and degredation of disulfoton (2).

    Like other organophosphorous insecticides, disulfoton will break down in water under alkaline conditions, and is most stable at normal surface water acidities. The degradation of the compound is temperature dependant (2). Humic (organic) substances found in the soil can make the pesticide sensitive to degredation by sunlight....

    So, I'd add heavy organic mulch and lots of lime.

    I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to admit it like you did. Good job!

    AJ

    Here is a link that might be useful: Chemical analysis of Bayer effects

  • aureliajulia
    15 years ago

    Ah, one more thing.

    The "metabolites" referred to are the progeny of the original pesticide. They last longer than the original (disulfoton), up to 42 weeks. Which is why it is still a good idea to mulch and increase alkalinity of the soil.

  • aureliajulia
    15 years ago

    I need an editing function for this posting. Sorry!

    Just did some more reading, and soil alkalinity can be raised (by humans as opposed to by nature) by adding sodium bi-carbonates or baking soda. Since the Cornell artical states alkalinity is the desired state to break down disulfoton, maybe that would be best? I'm not sure, but it seems reasonable. Lime raises the pH, but I'm not sure it raises the alkalinity (ie. whether it is an alkali). The two terms are often interchanged erronously.

    A possible suggestion, call Cornel University and ask whether lime or baking soda or whatever is the best way to mitigate the use of disulfoton.

    I just read about soil hydrology at 3 in the morning on a Saturday night for FUN! You know you're a Rosaholic when...!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Sodium Bicarbonate