Third one -- I'd love to see a more open bloom, but the color is interesting, isn't it?

And, heck, that first one??? Danged if I know -- but it's awfully pretty!

Hope you can propagate them!

Jeri

I will see if I can't get a better picture of that last one. If I can get some cuttings to take of the first, would you like me to send you the bands? It really is a beautiful rose.

Josh

Jeri I don't have Cecille, so I'm sure you're right. I got cuttings of her at a Heritage Rose meeting, and that thing took over an entire fence In a year--and not one single bloom EVER, but the bush itself had the healthiest most gorgeous foliage you've ever seen. I took it out after its third year.

floridarose - it sounds to me as if you got the Cl Cecile Brunner, if it grew so large and didn't bloom in 3 years. Old climbers sometimes take 4 or 5 years before they bloom - I didn't understand that until I had a Belle Portugaise which didn't bloom until its fifth Spring, at which point it put on a marvelous display. It has been blooming well ever since.

So, I am afraid that you just didn't wait long enough - I am told that the reason some old climbers do that is that they won't bloom until they grow to a size which is built into their DNA. I think of it as the same as sexual maturity in mammals - they don't reproduce until they are a certain age and have grown up to an "adult" size. Patience really is a virtue.

Jackie

Josh, I'd take you up on that offer -- but there's really No Room. We need to plant some of what we have!

Jeri. :-)

If that's a Noisette hybrid, now I know I would love to have it. They do really well here.

I can see where you would believe it comes from that family is roses. I will keep looking and see if I can't find the name of this rose. I've emailed the local rose society to see if they have identified this rose at all.

Florida,
As soon as I can get a cutting to take and grow I will send one your way. I'm afraid cuttings would succumb to the heat as well so I will try to get it established before I send it on its voyage.

You've piqued my curiosity. I've been scrutinizing the top photo and thinking along Nastarana's lines. When someone in TX says "white cemetery rambler," my first thoughts are 'Fortuniana' or 'Cherokee Rose' (yours is neither) or the Noisette 'Lamarque,' but when I've observed 'Lamarque' in person, it has boasted fuller flowers. Your rose's flower shape/petal composition more closely resemble some specimens of 'Jaune Deprez' I've seen with its potentially cup-shaped blooms, but even in hot TX sun, there should be some peachiness happening along with the whiteness. Do I see a smidgeon of that in your photo? However, as with 'Lamarque,' I think the petal count is usually higher. William Welch has a photo of 'Jaune' which looks vaguely like your rose--"Antique Roses for the South" page 142. Not making a claim for 'Jaune.' Just thinking out loud on your thread. 'Lamarque' is on 141, by the by. What color are the buds on your rose? The fimbriate petals on the open flowers are notable. And the character of the canes and thorns? Under the blackspot, the leaves appear to be somewhat glossy with moderate serration, more ovate. Like Nastarana, I see something possibly Bourbonish--a la Souvenir de St. Anne's (climbing) but not--in your rose. I also went down the hybrid musk road, since yours has clusters of blooms vaguely resembling HMs. HM flower clusters don't reside "close to the canes," so I know I was wild goose-chasing. Stalling while I racked my brain. I googled 'Mme. Francois Pittet' and good ol' Vintage Gardens came up with a photo. I'm still rooting around for ideas and decided to reply to your post even though I am just sifting thoughts. I'll move over and make room for someone else to post.

Oh, I almost forgot to say that your rose sure is a pretty one!

Carol

How old were the gravesites? Did the roses have mature canes?

The red rose--here are some questions and things I'm noting. Is it climbing/rambling? The buds appear to be blunt. Is your rose cluster-flowered like the red Chinas? The foliage is shinier and the thorns aren't right for Cramoisi, Louis Philippe, and such, but the flower shape, the color, and I think the size of the blossoms are similar to those guys. They show white in the center, of course, and your rose seems to show some white outside..or maybe that's just a consequence of weather? Does your rose look like it's showing some strong red china influence? This is really Jeri's and others' dept. I'm winging it here but chipping in with ideas because I've seen a number of red Chinas/China-esque roses in old TX cemeteries. I've never toured the one in Allen. (I have a friend in McKinney that I'll visit sometime. Maybe I can swing through the cemetery on my way.) The leaves of your rose look like they might even be a bit wichuraiana-like. They don't show any of that burgundy growth/edging so common in Chinas. It will be interesting to see if your red mystery is remontant.

Anyhoo, just pondering out loud again.

Carol

Go on line, and look for an article by Mrs Keays: "WHAT OLD ROSE IS THIS?" -- you can find it on the Good Coast Heritage Roses Group website. It'll help you determine what characteristics are most diagnostic.

Very few of us have a grounding in Botany, but this is a helpful start.

Jeri

Perhaps Mme. Plantier? The bush was a fully 5 feet tall and a good 8-9 feet across. It is a once bloomer as well.

Josh

Look at Plantier's leaves, below. They have a very distinct shape, and are "ridged" or "quilted" -- they're a key identifier for Plantier, even when she's not in bloom.

Jeri

Looking back on the whole thing, I can't help but shake my head and think to myself, "Josh, you should've taken better pictures so we could actually SEE the thing!" Lol. I see what you mean by the 'quilted' aspect of the foliage. I'll see if I can't get a better couple of pictures of this beauty.

I did not take any cuttings from the bush since I discovered it right as summer was heating up. I plan on air layering the plant in several places once the October weather rolls around and the plant is not water-stressed. Perhaps I will 'rustle' the red one as well. The red rose seems so incredibly familiar but I just cannot put my finger on how I feel like I know what it is...

I will stop by and see the plant today to see if it has re bloomed.

Josh

I would love to try these cuttings...
ogrose

I hope you can root it, because whatever it is, that's what you want to grow!

Jeri

The Forester for the city emailed me and told me that the roses growing along the fence were Lady Banks, and there were many Knockouts in the cemetery.

*face palm*

Looks like I'll have to keep searching to find the ID of these cultivars.

Josh

I believe ARE was selling Coquette des Alpes at one time, I think I saw it in an older catalogue from, maybe the late 80s. How long has ARE been in business?

Josh