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organicgardendreams

need help with 'Reine des Violettes'

First of all I would like to say that I love, love, love this rose and really want it to thrive in my garden!

I planted a new rose bed with 'Yolande d'Aragon', Grandmother's Hat' and 'Reine des Violettes', lately. 'Yolande d'Aragon' and 'Grandmother's Hat are taking off like gangbusters, but 'Reine des Violettes' is basically just sitting there. So I am wondering why is she not as happy as the other two roses are. Her leaves are a light green, but not chlorotic. All three roses are planted in the same orqanic rose soil, mulched, fertilized with alfalfa meal and organic rose fertilizer, and watered well on a regular base.

For you information I got my RdV from Heirloom Roses, so she is growing own-roots and I nursed her in containers until her root ball was the size of a 2 gallon pot and planted her then in the ground.

I have read somewhere that 'Reine des Violettes' does not like alkaline soil, which I have. Also our water is very alkaline. So I put down soil sulfur to try to lower the ph a little bit and see if this has a positive effect on her, but other than that I am running out of ideas. Any thoughts what I could do?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Christina

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

Comments (32)

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Christina, in alkaline soil, RdV does best with a bit more artificial assistance than you've given her so far. Ironite, chelated iron, aluminum sulfate (Hydrangea Blue) are all beneficial, not necessarily together, but work well to acidify the soil, releasing the iron which is locked up in insoluble compounds in alkaline soil. Amending the planting hole with a lot of peat moss, as you would for Azaleas and Camellias, works well, too. Before finally ridding myself of the problem by giving the rose away, I found generous mulches of fresh horse manure with copious watering eventually flushed the alkalinity from the soil and provided enough nitrogen and acidity to help the rose take up enough iron. Mine was an own root purchased from Roses of Yesterday and Today and as the vast majority of their roses, was badly virused and had severe crown gall, both of which every rose I purchased from them over many years, suffered.

    The most common source of violet in roses is multiflora. Those genetics HATE alkalinity because it prevents them from absorbing the iron they require. The only way to make and keep them happy is to make sure you keep the root zone acidified sufficiently, or bud it on a root stock not as severely affected by alkalinity, such as Dr. Huey. I know, please no rants against Huey, but this is one instance where he IS superior to own root for this specific reason. Kim

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Normal foliage of RdV is bright green with the veins not contrasting. If the veins are definitely darker than the rest of the leaf, it is iron-deficient because of the pH. Sulfur may take 6-12 months to have much effect. In the meantime you could shift the fertilizer to Miracid, which supplies available iron.

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cross-post, not arguing with Kim.

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for including Miracid, Michael! I forgot to add it. It's odd that many people haven't associated that nitrogen is an acidifier. Acid fertilizer is higher in nitrogen than the other nutrients. Citrus Food is very similar to lawn food and Camellia/Azalea food, though lawn traditionally has little to no phosphorous and potassium.

    Horse manure is rather acidic due to all the horse pee in it. Adding it to alkaline soil with lots of water can do wonderous things to the stuff. Put sometime like a Super Bloom under it and water like mad and you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results. Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Even if her water is very alkaline?

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes. As the alkaline water percolates through the peat moss, it is acidified. As it dissolves the acidic water soluble substance, it is acidified. As the water leaches the horse pee from the manure, it is acidified. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any way to acidify alkaline soil and water without replacing them with acidic types and you couldn't grow acid loving plants where they don't naturally occur.

    Conversely, you couldn't adjust acidic soil and water to be more neutral to alkaline for plants requiring less acid. Most often, using the appropriate type of fertilizer is sufficient, such as in the case of Citrus Food or Camellia/Azalea, but for some really "miffy" types, or worse case scenarios, more extreme measures are needed. Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the explanation.
    Susan

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim's got it just right.
    We grew RdV here for 20 years.
    Ours also came through ROY&T, and frankly, I don't know of any clones that didn't. (Though some are V.I., now, I think.)

    In our extremely alkaline/somewhat saline conditions, it suffered horribly from chlorosis. Once it was really well-established, a handful of soil sulfur WAS enough to push it back into a better range, but it did take time.

    There were times when its leaves were actually WHITE.

    Jeri

    NOTE: I have, since, grown purple roses that tolerated my conditions better than RdV. "Forest Ranch Purple Pom-Pom" ("Forest Ranch Pom-Pom") does NOT have that problem, and it's about the same color as RdV.
    Tom Carruth's poiple roses, also, do not have problems with it.

  • redsox_gw
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have terribly alkaline soil and mine has finally come into it's own in year 3. Last year I put down the chelated iron only once and it did the trick.

  • organicgardendreams
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, so many answers to my question! It is great that I can count on the members of Gardenweb. Thanks everyone!

    So it sounds like in general I was already on the right track having assumed that the lack of acidity is the problem with my 'Reine des Violettes'.

    Kim, since I put already down soil sulfur to acidify the soil, which I assume has the same effect than aluminum sulfate is there any need to use chelated iron soon? And if so when? You wrote that I should not use everything together at the same time. Since I planted the rose in a hole 2 x 2 filled with organic rose soil I think by now it still should grow its roots in a zone where there is enough iron available. Honestly I don't even know if our soil is also low in iron, but I am absolutely sure about the alkalinity.

    michelg, the veines of my 'Reine des Violettes' are not darker than the rest of the leave. I know that the leaves of RdV are supposed to be a light green, but mine are just an unhealthy light green and the rose is not growing much. Great tip with the Miracid to override the phase until the soil sulfur is acting properly. I forgot to mention that I try to garden organically, and I believe Miracid is not an organic fertilizer. Is there any product that is organic that would act fast that I could use until the soil sulfur kicks in? Shall I maybe fertilize with organic fertilizer for camellias and other acid loving plants? I have that already in the garage...

    Jeri, thanks for sharing that soil sulfur worked for your 'Reine des Violettes'! Hopefully it will work for mine, too. I looked at 'Forest Ranch Pom-Pom' and the flower form and color looks indeed very similar to 'Reine des Violettes'. I was thinking, though, that the purple of 'Reine des Violettes' is unique, because at least in cooler weather here in SoCa it has also this gray-ish purple shading, which I think is to die for...
    Can you name a couple of the purple Tom Carruth roses that you have in mind? I would love to hear which ones you think are good.

    redsox, good to know that chelated iron worked for you. That would be the next thing that I would try when the soil sulfur is not helping.

    Thanks again everyone who participated in this thread so far!

    Christina

    Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Christina, I appreciate your desire to garden organically. Unfortunately, organics require time to begin doing their thing. Time for bacteria to begin digesting them; time for compounds to begin to disolve and leach through the soil. Chelated iron isn't "organic", neither is aluminum sulfate. There honestly isn't anything in the Miracid that will hurt anything you have going with your organics. If anything, it will help to jump start your organics in their activity. Bacteria require nitrogen to begin the digestion process. If there isn't already a readily available source of it for them to utilize, they rob it from the plants, making the nitrogen deficiency worse until they begin releasing enough of it from their digestion of the organic material.

    The organics digest down into their salt components, which is the only form that can absorb into the plant. Miracid, like all other inorganic fertilizers, already IS the salt form. As long as you have everything watered well so there is sufficient water in the plants for the salt - water ion exchange to take place without removing too much water from an already stressed plant (what we call "burning" the plant), adding a dose or two of Miracid won't hurt a thing and can actually help quite a bit.

    Ironite is formulated for our southwestern alkaline soils and water and does a great job. Keep it off your clothes, concrete and house as it WILL permanently stain them with rust. Chelated iron is useful, but easier to burn things with unless you follow the directions very closely.

    Ironite also has a low dose of nitrogen in it, something like 7% unless they've changed it since I last purchased it (quite some time ago!), so it might be the most "cure-all" of them for you to use. I honestly can't think of anything organic that will give you fast results.

    I personally, combine organic and inorganic fertilizers so I feed the plants and bacteria NOW and provide goodies for the bacteria to begin working on and conditioning the soil with. I use Grow Power Plus, with humic acid and all purpose organic so the total isn't really heavy in any one nutrient. It makes a HUGE difference! Grow Power Plus is a 5-3-1 formula. The all purpose organic is 5-5-5 so eventually, the formulation is around 10-8-6, and it lasts a long time. The bacteria begin working right away without robbing nitrogen from the plants and continue feeding as they digest the organics long after the Grow Power Plus is used up. It works quite well in my heavily alkaline water and soil and the heat we have here in the San Fernando and Santa Clarita Valleys.

    If you like the slate-gray-purple of Reine, also take a look at Blue for You. Very nice foliage, very good fragrance and some AMAZING colors! Tom's purples which have done best for me in my own and in clients' gardens are Midnight Blue and Ebb Tide. ET can be a little slow to get going but once it does, it is gorgeous! Kim
    Good luck! Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Blue for You

  • organicgardendreams
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed answer! I really appreciate it very much!

    So if there isn't any organic stuff that is able to act fast I may consider one of the inorganic products that you are recommending to bridge the time until the soil sulfur is breaking down, because I looked at 'Reine des Violettes' today and it is really going downhill fast.

    I looked up all the purple roses that you mentioned and I really like 'Ebb Tide' best because it seems to have a higher petal count than the other two ones and it is not showing the yellow stamens so much, which I prefer. With Weeks roses being in trouble can you recommend a source to order it from? Do you know if it can be grown own-roots, which I would prefer?

    Christina

    Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome Christina! I hope it helps you salvage your Reine. There are many sources for it on HMF. I'm not sure which offer it own root as Week's didn't offer it that way. Are you happy dealing with any of them? I'd approach it that way, see who offer it own root, if any, and select the one you're most comfortable dealing with. Kim

  • organicgardendreams
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks again, Kim! Will check out the list of sources on HMF for Ebb Tide and see if I can find it own-roots and pick the vendor I have the most trust in. Who would have thought that I would come out of my request for help with 'Reine des Violettes' with a new "must have" rose to buy? Not bad at all :-)...

    Christina

    Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I believe it Christina! LOL! Friends have affectionately dubbed me, "The Enabler from Hell"! Kind of reminds me of the lyrics by Tom Lehrer from "The Old Dope Peddler". "He gives the kids free samples because he knows full well, today's young, innocent faces will be tomorrow's clientele!"

    It can take a little while to come into its own and it resents hard pruning, but I do believe Ebb Tide will go down as one of Tom Carruth's best. The plant seems to like heat and does very well in Valencia, CA with only morning sun. The flower color lasts better that way, too. It's stupendous between Amber Waves and Julia Child with a purple salvia and verbena bonarensis popping up everywhere. Geranium Brookside pokes through here and there and it is really lovely. And, that SCENT! Pretty foliage, gorgeous, if somber, color, like a "mad Gallica" in modern roses. Love it! Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay, I get really confused between Copyright and Patent when it comes to roses, but....I do see that there is a patent applied for on Ebb Tide and that it was only introduced in 2006. Doesn't that mean that it cannot be cloned under that name until 2031, which would mean it would be very hard to find "own root"???

    Susan

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Christina, Ebb Tide is a very popular modern rose and can often be found in local nurseries. It's still under patent and I don't think you can find it own-root. I had this rose and had to give it up because in my garden it fried almost immediately and the bush as a whole didn't like the heat. It's a very deep purple which in my mind doesn't compare with the colors of RdV but that's for you to decide. It would be wonderful if you could resurrect your RdV, although perhaps this rose just wasn't meant to live in your conditions. I'll always remember the one gorgeous bloom of it I saw in your garden and the glorious fragrance.

    Ingrid

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If anyone else is curious about the issue of trademark, copyright, patent, I started a new thread just so it would be accessible later via a search. This is Paul Barden's work, which is -- as always -- invaluable.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Paul's info on patent, copyright, trademark

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingrid, I checked Greenheart's availability list on line this afternoon. They are producing liners of own root Ebb Tide, obviously under license, so you should be able to find it own root. As long as they pay the royalties, anyone purchasing the rose from them can resell it legally. Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not Ingrid who probably does know the answer to this, but....
    what are "liners"????

    Susan

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Susan, Happy Fourth! Liners are the extremely small propagation pots. Instead of sixteen four inch pots per flat, liners are usually 2" and you can fit 64 per flat. They make production much faster and more space efficient. Using that size, you can quadruple your production output in the same space. Greenheart has been the leader in this type of production for some time. Conard Pyle (Star Roses) is moving in that direction, hoping to primarily raise this size of rose to supply other growers with them for growing up to retail size plants. Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Very very interesting.

    So, even "own root" roses may be pre-propagated by a large company before being raised and distributed in bands or gallons or whatever by a retailer??? I know that Vintage Gardens does all of their own propagation from start (pun intended), but I suppose that may not be true of all of the others....That had never occurred to me before. I don't know why it matters, but somehow it changes the view I have of how I chose where to buy roses.

    Susan (who is glad the noisy bang bang bang of the fourth is over and her one fearful dog can go back to being a "lion dog" instead of a shivering mass of whimpering fur....)

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand your sentiment, Susan, but it's not only much more efficient, but the way the whole industry is going. Greenheart is a model of production efficiency. With just a handful of people and computer assistance, they can pump out millions of plants annually, It's very likely, you've seen their plants all over town.

    Liner production isn't going to replace the French Teas and the odd old HTs the Vintages, Burlingtons and RVRs produce. It will make it easier for them to offer the bread and butter roses we've come to expect and have them much more consistently available. Greenheart wouldn't be interested in producing anything they can't sell by the tens or hundreds of thousands, and you can't blame them.

    But, at least this means those varieties you see listed on their web site are going to remain around a while longer, and that will free the specialty growers to concentrate on producing their favorites and the odd things we keep requesting of them. It should also help to standardize some pricing on the readily order able ones, which is probably going to appear like collusion (price fixing) to quite a few here.

    Really, it's just making a segment of roses the equivalent of bedding plants, perennials, trees and landscape shrubs. Nurseries can just drop an order for most of what you find of those categories and they are dropped on them the following week. Now, they can also drop an order for the listed roses and have more by return mail (in many cases). It shouldn't change any allegiances or loyalties and, in some cases, the quality of plant may actually improve. The people you spend your money with to support won't change, they'll just have a few extra minutes freed by not having to propagate the basic selection. Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yup, I get it....
    But I don't really have to like it.
    Everything is getting too homogenized for my taste.

    Everyone can have everything and nothing is special anymore.
    It's a bit depressing.

    I had a tree specialist come the other day to give me an estimate on taking down a huge maple that is starting to push over a rental cottage. As he was leaving he said "I've never seen a garden/yard like this". I have no idea if he was amazed or appalled or ?????? (And I didn't ask)

    My apologies for taking this thread so far OT....

    Susan

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Susan, no apologies necessary on my account! I am in complete agreement with you about the homogenization of life. Remember when you used to be able to shop mom and pop stores to find the products which did what you wanted them to do? Now, everywhere you go, it's the same dozen products, sometimes in different sizes and prices, but nothing different.

    The same HBA articles everywhere. The same food everywhere. The same household cleaners, same, same, same. Why not the roses, too? At least, with this standardization, the basics will be there and our favorites can spend some time propagating the special things instead of Icebergs! It's always been difficult to propagate the more difficult things which may only sell a few per year when your dinner depended upon the easy things which sold daily. This, hopefully, will take some of that pressure off them and we'll see some more interesting things on lists! Kim

  • landperson
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Okay, I get it: if everyone else buys the same-old stuff then there will be more one-of-a-kinds for me? That works for me :-))))

    Susan

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If a nursery can simply buy and resell the bread and butter stuff to pay the bills, it leaves them more time to "play". Works for me, too! Kim

  • aimeekitty
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    the way my reine des violettes looked in my alkaline soil for a whole year, maybe longer:
    {{gwi:280813}}

    How she looked pretty soon after me putting her in a pot:

    Why not keep your reine and just pot her up? (and find another purplish rose for your garden proper)

  • rev_roses
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you haven't found it yet, Ebb Tide is available from Heirloom Roses on its own roots. I grow it own-root and it has done well for me.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Ebb Tide

  • jerijen
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good thinking, Aimee!

    Jeri

  • organicgardendreams
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, your more detailed description of 'Ebb Tide' sounds really like this is an awesome rose. If you say it "will go down as one of Tom Carruth's best" that really means something. I would love to see a photo of the garden area that you are describing where you planted Ebb Tide together with Julia Child, Amber Waves and purple companions plants!
    Great that you found Ebb Tide at Greenhearts own-roots. Safes me the research :-)! Learned something about liners, too.

    Ingrid, thanks for sharing your experience with Ebb Tide. Without seeing Ebb Tide and Reine des Violettes side by side together, I guess it is impossible to make a judgement for me if the color is really the same. By the way, I actually don't want to replace Reine des Violettes with it, but maybe find a substitute for Burgundy Iceberg, which became maroon brown for me in the heat. Right now I have absolutely no intention to give up on my Reine des Violettes. I definitively will wait how the rose responds when the soil becomes more acidic, simply because as you noticed, too, it is such a special rose.

    aimeekitty, thanks for your input, but I don't think that it will work for me to grow Reine des Violettes in a container long term, even if it is a big one. HMF lists RdV with a height of 4' - 8' and a width of 3' - 6'. Since I am in Southern California I assume, that it is more likely that the rose will mature at the maximum size. For me it was impossible to keep a rose of that size sufficiently watered and cool enough in the heat of summer to look nice in a pot. I think 4' - 4' is the maximum that I can grow in a container. I would be interested to hear how your RdV is fairing in its container as it matures.

    wellrounded, thank you so much for pointing that out to me. Heirloom Roses has just a free shipment offer going, if I am not mistaken, so I may jump on it. Also thank you very much for sharing your experience with growing Ebb Tide own roots. It is good to know that it works for you, since some roses are just not that happy to grow on their own roots, even though they are sold as own-roots from reputable vendors. At least that is my experience.

    Christina

    Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Garden Dreams

  • roseseek
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome Christina. My experience with Ebb Tide own root is that it is better potted than in the ground. The warmer soil of the pot, combined with its richer nature, stimulates the plant to really produce. Even budded, in ground, it can take a while to develop. It has glorious foliage and can produce large clusters once it gets going. Kim