I don't really care if the problem of names and origin are never sorted up completely. I am happy with another very good HP to grow. As long as the roses are sold in nurseries they are propagated and they will not become extinct. I am more worried about the roses in the large collections that are not in comerse; and we can play Sherlock Holmes later.

Tao and Cupshaped Roses, thank you. As far as I know, we don't use the term "oculating." We know several different kinds of budding, each of which employes a single bud eye, not a piece of cane, which would constitute a graft. (Fortuneana rootstock is grafted, but that's a different issue)

Chip budding, T-budding and reverse chip budding are the techniques I know about. The differences relate to the shape of the cut and flap made on the receiving budwood as well as the time of year the budding occurs. Chip budding can take place any time of year the rootstock and dormant budeyes can be found in the same place as the budder - - no need to wait for the rootstock's bark to slip. When the need arises, I've seen roses budded to almost any vigorous rose handy -- Rosa gigantea, Baltimore Belle, Mme. Plantier, Cardinal Hume...

Here is a link that might be useful: Chip budding

I would add that there are actually many errors in Sangerhausen's labels. This is precisely how, for instance, our beloved 'Banshee' was unfortunately morphed into Scandinavia's 'Minette'.

>>>I don't really care if the problem of names and origin are never sorted up completely. I am happy with another very good HP to grow.

*** WELL NOW! THAT is a rosarian after my own heart!
Reasearch is great. Research is wonderful. But . . .
If it is a good rose, it is valuable for itself.
I am more than happy to grow it under a studyname and enjoy it, and share it with others.

Jeri

I hadn't heard that specific story, Stefan, but we all know it happens in every collection.

The best check on identities is having the roses seen by the most knowledgable people.
That's why high quality online pictures are so valuable. Apple is working on its color-managed browser, Safari, for Windows.
That will be a help. Now if we can just convince everyone that prickles and leaves are part of the rose.

That's basically how I feel. Based on just a few photos, this thing looks like a knockout. I would hope that the detective work will eventually be done, but the lack of it won't sate my lust to grow it.

Of course, I was just illustrating a "live" example, not pointing fingers of blame! Sangerhausen has obviously done a fabulous job of maintaining its collections against all odds.

Whatever this rose is, it is indeed beautiful - and if we have any confusion in our country over the identity of 'Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavalee', it certainly hasn't made it much easier to acquire 'Erinnerung an Brod' here. It would clearly be more than worth someone like Ashdown importing this version of Alphonse.

If you're ever busy sending budwood anyway, maybe you could throw in a few sticks of R. helenae 'Hybrida' while you're at it. This is a rose we dearly need for its great hardiness, even more than another red HP (however lovely). There is a large part of our country where ramblers could grow, but can't, because of its absence.

I understand that this is far from reliable, but the description at Vintage Gardens
is tantalizing;

"Modest flowers of exceptional form, with many petals, cupped in a regular form,
deep pomegranite (sic) red with crimson shadings; in cool weather this rose can be
very dark. Its canes are soft and smooth with few thorns."

Erinnerung an Brod (which they don't even offer) could hardly be described as
'cupped in a regular form.' Their description of Dr. Jamain is quite different,
and has a photo. Unfortunately, they have no photo available for their Alphonse.

Could this be the real deal?
How would I go about asking them delicately without infuriating them?

cavallo: It could be the real SDAL they have at Vintage Gardens ... it sounds like it by the description. But a picture of flower, sepals, stems and leaves would be nice!
I would ask Gregg Lowery where Vintage gardens got their budwood or cuttings from. He seems like a nice guy and I am sure he will not be offended by this inquiry.

I have sent Mr Paul Zimmerman from Ashdown an email asking him if he want to import my Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée, and will send him budwood if he wants to and have rootstocks ready.

Stefan: Of course I can send some Hybrida canes as well!
anything else you want? So Minette is Banshee?

Thank you Cass for the link to chip budding. I normally use T-budding on multiflora rootstock. I also got your hint about posting pics of more than just the flowers so it will be easier to identify certain roses.

Also Taoseeker I would be willing to to send you some budwood canes so you can have them custombudded when the time is right in your area.

I really can't imagine a more wonderful gift to the Americas than 'Hybrida' - if you only sent that, I think we would owe you a huge debt of gratitude!

That said, I know we are missing two more Scandinavian helenae hybrids 'Lykkefund' and 'Aksel Olsen', if you have those - even though they aren't as hardy as 'Hybrida' they seem to be excellent ramblers.

'Hurdalsrosen' is a wonderful sounding alba that has never graced our shores, and two interesting davidii hybrids 'Fenja' and 'Syvdal' have also never been seen here to my knowledge. But that is all really gilding the lily - so my wish list is as short as 'Hybrida'! And you have just about taken my breath away at even the hint of a possibility of being able to grow her finally!

I got an Email From Mr. Paul Zimmerman from Ashdown. He is willing to import the roses and propagate plants during the next years. I will send him my own bareroot plants from my cutting garden, when they are dormant in the fall. I will send some plants of Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée and some R. Helenae "Hybrida". As my contribution to preserving and sharing the joy of making these roses available for sale in America.

While we're dreaming about helenae hybrids, how about Hélène Maréchal? It's striking, although I have no idea how hardy it may be. HMF makes no mention.

Just saw your latest post, cupshaped. Bravo! You are a true gentleman. It's a shame that so few will know or care what a debt American gardeners will owe you. We are truly in your debt.

How fun!

Cupshaped, do you also grow Empress of the North/Kaiserin des Nordens/Pohjolan Kuningatar
that you could add to the mix? Anything that lives in through a Russian winter
ought to be able to take upstate New York. ;~)

Here is a link that might be useful: Empress of the North

I, for one, am never going to forget - that you can be sure of! And over time I'll probably tell a lot of people who couldn't care less, but I think it's one he** of a gesture. And I'm grateful for Ashdown's part in it, too!

Cass, that's a real beauty - I wonder if it has any of the fall color that Rosa davurica sports. I don't think I've ever seen a rose put on as colorful or long-lasting a show as that species - it's honestly like botanical fireworks (there's a plant of it in my garden at work, from seed collected wild in Russia, I think). I'll try to snap a photo this autumn.

Mr. Paul Zimmerman from Ashdown will send me import stickers and I will send him some of my new plants and send budwood canes to a European Rose Nursery to propagate more plants for cuttings to be send to Ashdown.

The Rose will probably stay a 3-4 feet tall bush in zone 5-6 and grow taller and wider in warmer climate zones. Almost all my red Austins will be replaced by this rose (it blooms more, is more vigorous and the blooms do not blow fast in hot sunny periods. It has an outstanding fragrance and the same colours as some of the dark red Austins like The Prince, Tradescant, Prospero and Falstaff.

I might also send a plant of the very, very rare Bourbon Rev. H. d'Ombrain. There are very few plants left in the world (I fear we are down to less than 25 plants of this rose (I have 10 of them) and all nurseries in Europe that claims to have the rose , no longer have this rose (Only one nursery near a German Castle have it).

It´s my hope that more rosarians will make an effort to preserve really good Old Garden Roses and propagate and share plants with rosariums worldwide. Otherwise we will loose some roses forever ...

And Stefan is right: without rosenurseries like Ashdown and others who are willing to make an effort to import good roses, some roses will never be available. But where there is a will there is a way...

Cavallo: I have not been able to find Hélène Maréchal anywhere in Europe? It does sound like a wonderful rose though (the parentage hints the possibility of it beeing really fragrant) but never seen or heard of it and not able to trace a plant in Europe. If you are able to locate a plant it might be possible to import it.

Cass: I have sent you an email about Empress of the North/Kaiserin des Nordens. Maybe Sitka is the same rose and it seems to be availble in the US. I do not grow this rose and have never seen it.

Thanks, cupshaped. I'll look into Sitka. Light pink doesn't seem right, but Sitka does seem interesting, something brought by the Russians maybe.

Dear Experts

This rose is enchanting. How do you all think it would grow in zone 10 (Israel)? I am about to import budwood from Peter Beales (got my import permit) and they stock this rose...

Thanks
Joanna

Dear Joanna: The rose I saw in Antibes in southern France
(which probably compares well to your Mediterranean climate) was 6-7 feet tall and was about 5-6 feet wide. It was a very big rosebush with hundreds of the fragrant flowers. It can be grown either as a big solitary rosebush probably best kept pruned to about 5-6 feet tall, or a low climber against a trellis. And yes Peter Beales has the right rose, the real SDAL. I look forward hearing how it will perform for you over the years.

I hope that we can keep the flow of roses from America to Europe going, too; between our two continents there are so many treasures to be shared. It's so gratifying to see how quickly varieties like Secret Garden Musk Climber have successfully crossed the Atlantic. I do believe in public gardens as repositories for important material when they serve as free and willing partners in resource sharing, but it is even more imperative that roses get into more private gardens and nurseries where they can be much more freely propagated and acquired. Distribution is the key to eternal life.

Here is an excerpt form The Canadian Rose Annual (1961 67-70)*Fifty Years of Rose Breeding* by Dr F. L. Skinner, of Manitoba Canada "While in England in 1947 I visited the National Rose Society's trial grounds at Hayward Heath and the Royal Horticultural Society's collection at Wisley. There I saw a number of the old roses that I thought would be useful due to their dwarf habit, among them being R. gallica officinalis/ and *Souvenir Alphonse Lavalle* [*Souv. d'Alphonse Lavallée*]. Later on I was able to get either scions or plants of some of these, and although they kill back to the snow line they flower freely without any protection, and a number of them will ripen their fruits out-of-doors here." It made me think that I should find out more about 'Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée' Thanks for all the work you ard doing to keep this rose available.
Leo

Cupshaped - HelpMeFind.com lists Hélène Maréchal as having been
introduced in 1995 by a Belgian nursery called "Louis Lens N.V./Pépinières
Louis Lens SA."

An address and phone number can be found here;

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=17.3690

Unfortunately, searching their website turns up nothing. However, it may be
worthwhile contacting them to ask what may have become of it, or if perhaps
they know of any other small nurseries who may have it.

Also, this page lists three gardens in Europe who grow Hélène Maréchal;

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=37713&tab=17

Perhaps, if it turns out that this plant is so very rare, one of these gardens
could be persuaded to supply a bud as a service to the world.

It would be a tragedy if a rose with such a fascinating pedigree was allowed to
pass into history.

Here's another garden who lists Hélène Maréchal. They also have a list of suppliers, so in
theory, one of them must have it. Perhaps they could be contacted to find out
where they got it;

http://www.cheminsdelarose.fr/pages/inventai.htm

Aha! An interesting website called aspeco.net claims that the following nursery
offers Hélène Maréchal;

http://www.aspeco.net/perso/farguettes.html

Of course, this is all straying a bit from the topic. Perhaps a new one needs to
be started?

Gregg Lowery of Vintage Gardens replied to my question as to whether what
they have really is SDAL. He is currently of the opinion that it is not, and seems
kind of unhappy about it. He says he'll be updating their database accordingly.
cupshaped - perhaps it would be beneficial for SDAL himself if arrangements
could be made to supply Vintage Gardens with budwood as well as Ashdown? A
little friendly competition would be a good thing, and would ultimately benefit
both we the consumers, and the rose itself. What do you think?

I think one vendor is enough. They're going to have to spend two years in quarantine first, anyway, so no point in making two nurseries do it independently. The cultivar isn't patented, so as soon as it's available for sale, Vintage can get ahold of one. Cupshaped is going out of his way to do this for us, so let's not make it more difficult for him than it already is!

Why not start a new thread about 'Helene Marechal'? It sounds like an interesting cultivar, although I do wonder how hardy it is. One could always try reproducing the cross that originated it if all else fails.

Ashdown and Vintage already share cuttings of rare roses. There is not an atmosphere of competition between them, it is a matter of preserving rare and old roses and that is best done if they are in several gardens and not just one in their opinions.

Carol

How wonderful! I guess it's just natural to assume they'd be rivals. Kind of sad
that that's the default assumption. I'm pleased it's not the case. The future
looks bright indeed for Alphonse.

Thank you Leo for your interesting information about SDAL from
The Canadian Rose Annual! It does confirm my observations about this rose´s hardiness. Heard about the horrible tornadoes in your province the other day!

It is also my impression that both owners of Ashdown and Vintage Gardens are interested in preserving roses and share plant material, so the best OGRs is available for sale in USA.

Cavallo I will look into the links you provided and see if I can find Helene Marechal. If so It may be possible for Ashdowns European connection to import the roses. Importing a rose from a European Nursery to here is sometimes a risky business ... I have seen roses taking roses 26 days to get here from France (Rotten and dried out and terrible quality) and then add the time it would take to get to Ashdown. By then it would be a miracle if the plant survived. It´s way easier if I grew the roses myself and had fresh plants I could harvest and send correct packaged so they do not dry out. But lets see if I can find a plant ...

This thread is an amazing read. REAL Rosarians at work trying to recover a rose before it is lost forever. I know a lot about roses but that is nothing compared to the serious expertise displayed with this dialog. I humbly admit that I've got a long way to go (make a note because I rarily admit such a thing).

One thing for sure: I WANT THAT ROSE!

The color is exactly the kind of crimson/purple transformation that I look for among the darker Austins and Hybrid Perpetuals. The fact that it is a good repeater and has strong fragrance makes it highly desirable. I'll be keeping my eye out for it at the Ashdown site.

Best wishes,

Patrick

I don't remember seeing this thread, so thank you Patrick
for posting.
I am getting very interested in the old HP's, and that
rose is just exquisite. So yes I must have it.

Cupshaped,
I have to tell you, you are one of the most interesting,
talented, and generous people I have met here. The
supports you build are amazing and one-of-a-kind!
And thank you for sending me all of those pics of
'your' 'Gerbe Rose' and 'Ayshire Splendens'! You are
always so generous with your advice and I know you put
alot of time into it, so, I just wanted to thank you!
It is very much appreciated,
alida

I WANT THAT ROSE!

'And yes Peter Beales has the right rose, the real SDAL.'

Hello, cupshaped roses. That's an interesting statement - I presume, then, that Beales is one of the two correct European vendors you mention higher in the thread and that therefore his version is from Guillot . . . ?

I understand that Ashdown are Beales's North American 'representative'. Perhaps Peter could supply Paul with the rose and save you the trouble?

Thanks for an entertaining thread!

Best wishes
Jon

The rose I bought from Beales was the same rose as the other SDAL´s roses I bought to see if they had the real rose. I have not asked Peter Beales where they got their budwood from. So Jon there was 2 nurseries here on the continents and Beales in England (That makes it 3).

Since I have got the plants and I am sure about their origin I will rather export the plants and the budwood I have to make sure the real SDAL ends up being exported. This way I can also make sure Hybrida and the Bourbon Rev. H. d'Ombrain can be sent too.

Also Jon I have budwood to send to Holland to propagate plants for cuttings that are going to be send to Ashdown. This way we can make more plants avaiable faster, since AshDown mostly sell own Root roses.

So all who are interested can get wonderful rose:

Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée
{{gwi:280959}}

I have come to think of something: personal taste does play a part in which roses are going to be preserved and live on.
I remember when I discovered the bourbon rose at the Castle nearby. Among 600 other OGRs we saw that day ... this was the most fragrant rose!!! We took a cutting it grew well in my friends garden. Then I began looking for it and for 3 years I was not able to find one plant in Europe. The 3 plants at the Castle and the one growing in my friends garden from the cutting seemed to be the only plants. No Vendor had the rose for sale. Some had it listed but did not have it and could not find it even though they promised to look for it get me some plants. So I grafted plants from budwood from my friend´s plant. I later learned that it was sold at a nursery near a german Castle. Relatives of the Danish Royal family. So here was yet another rose that was nearly extinct. I offered budwood to the Bourbon collection in England since they had bot been able to find a plant in England. But mr. Lewis had passed away and they would not add more plants to their collection. It is so interesting about these rare roses ... I think there are many gems out there were are loosing all the time. So everyone that loves roses should look out for roses that are worth preserving.

Thank you for your kind words Alida! There are many nice and helpful people like you and me here on the forum that are willing to share their experience about growing certain roses.

I know that feeling exactly, cupshaped. I have an old damask that I 'rescued'
from a small rural cemetery near here - hardly a castle, but the US isn't that
old. :) It's entirely possible that it's nothing special, but I have yet to positively
ID the thing, so I have no idea. The original is long gone from that old
cemetery. I've made certain to share cuttings with friends to insure it's not lost,
just in case it's something unusual. The urge to conserve is something that
should be cultivated as carefully as the plants themselves.

Cupshaped--can SdAL be grown as a climber? What is its growth habit?

It can be so hard to identify a found rose Cavallo! At least you know what class of rose the rose you found is! It can take a lot of detective work to identify a found rose, but it´s always fun. Whether it is worth preserving is another matter ... because what roses are worth preserving? I think that is highly personal and depends on individual taste.

jbfoodie: The SDAL I see in Antibes in Southern France (zone 9-10) is 6-7 feet tall and about 5-6 feet wide with arching canes. It is a very big rosebush with hundreds of the fragrant flowers. It can be grown either as a big solitary rosebush probably best kept pruned to about 5-6 feet tall or a low climber trained against a low trellis/ or a wall probably to 7-8 feet tall.

Like I wrote, I grow it as a 3-4 feet tall and 3 feet wide solitary rosebush in my zone 5-6 climate.

Oh WOW!!! How in the world did I miss a post about such a beauty??? And the COLOR!! It's just perfect. Sounds like I'll have to wait a few years but when it becomes available I will HAVE to get one. You are a true sweetheart for sharing this rose with us!!

Cupshaped--yet another question--do you know if SdAL can tolerate a bit of shade? Also, do you think it could be espalied? I know that some HPs like afternoon sun and was wondering if SdAL might be one of those. Your enthusiasm and pictures have me hooked on this rose! I apologize if this was mentioned previously in this thread, but I am having a very diffcult time reading this as the paragraphs are formatted to extend out really far. It makes it hard to read. I have noticed this type of format on a very few other threads in this forum. I wonder why it happens?

twohuskies: you are going to love this rose! It is worth the
wait. I know you like Chianti ... The flowers on this rose is
even better and more fragrant and it repeat blooms!!

jbfoodie: You are right! like many of the Red HPs they
actually do better in partial shade. The colour of the
flowers becomes a better red... and do not crisp as they
tend to do if it is placed where it gets sun all day.

I am sure this rose can be espaliered in warmer zones ( 6
and higher). Even here it sometimes shoot a very long 7-8
feet cane ( I cut it ) but they could have been espaliered,
to produce more laterals and flowers. In some ways it can be
grown as Souvenir du Dr. Jamain (Which btw not do too well
for me ..(But this rose is more vigourous, healthy and I
think has more beautiful and stronger scented flowers. It is
really one of the best red HPs ever bred! I grow 5 other
Red HPs ( Alfred Colomb, SDDJ, Eugene furst, Hugh Dickson,
and Emperor de Maroc) and this is the best of them all. So
no wonder I try to enable you to give this rose a try when
it becomes avaible for sale in USA.

Well, after several years, I've rediscovered this thread. It would seem that any hopes of getting this rose to the US have been dashed with the closure of Ashdown Roses. Cupshaped - are you still out there?

Well, after several years, I've rediscovered this thread. It would seem that any hopes of getting this rose to the US have been dashed with the closure of Ashdown Roses. Cupshaped - are you still out there?

It sure takes patience! The rose seems to keep get mixed up with Erinnerung an Brod. I still hope an American rose nursery will import roses from my clone of SDAL. I posted a picture on HMF today showing the Buds and sepals of the rose - to help people distinguish it from Erinnerung an Brod.

Here is a link that might be useful: SDAL pic posted on HMF today

Hortico in Canada is now selling a SdAL, and since they sell Peter Beales roses, might there be a pretty good chance that they have the right one? I'm looking for this rose, so I hope so!

Rogue Valley Roses in Oregon obtained Ashdown Roses' collection, including Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee. They told me that they will be selling it when they have a large enough stock plant. So, all that work to get it to Ashdown wasn't wasted!

Curious as to whatever happened with this. Also, does anyone have links to photos? The photos are no longer on here, and the one link with the photos does not seem to be working.

I just checked Rogue Valley Roses but did not see Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee.

I did see this rose at Heirloom Roses, but it is out of stock. Does anyone know if it is authentic at Heirloom Roses?

I contacted Rogue Valley Roses and they said they did not have Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee at all. Does anyone know where to get Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee in the USA?

I called Heirloom Roses and they are not propagating any of the Eurodesert roses at this time. This makes me very sad. I did add about 14 roses to my wishlist. I can not guarantee that I could afford all 14 roses, but i would eat ramen noodles endlessly just to get some of them.