I tried to order the rose from various nurseries but every time I got the rose Erinnerung An Brod. When travelling I sometimes visit some rosenurseries. One Hybridizer in Franze (Guillot) had the real rose for sale.

It turned out to be the best HP rose I have ever grown. It was healthy, and had good hardiness. The Cupshaped flowers are very beautiful and the colour warry from dark red to deep royal purple when the flower develop. The fragrance is everything one could want from a dark red rose ...strong refined damask rose scent. The rose is excellent for cutting. It grows to a nice 3-4 feet tall and 3 feet wide rosebush in my climate zone. Will probably get taller in warmer climates as I have seen it in France.

Often when I visit some big Rosariums or rosegardens in Europe I see this rose...or rather I see Erinnerung an Brod or Souvenir de Dr. Jamain it is so rare to to see the real SDAL. Most webpages show the imposters... HMF is no exception. See HMF pictures and if you are interested you can cut and past the addresses below. I so would like that roselovers in America would be able to grow this wonderful rose that is not available in America. It has got to be one one the best HPs ever. I will try to contact Gregg Lowery at Vintage Gardens to see if they are interested in Budwood and send it to them so they can propagate plants for Heritage Rosegardens and for sale. Very few Hps are this healthy and has such a good growth habit. But the flowers and the fragrance is of course what makes this rose stand out:

A personal homepage that portrays Souvenir Du Dr. Jamain as SDAL:

http://images.google.dk/imgres?imgurl=http://valed.free.fr/roseanc/TN_SOUVEN~1.JPG&imgrefurl=http://valed.free.fr/roseanc/page13.htm&h=70&w=70&sz=3&hl=da&start=7&um=1&tbnid=zqgT_BIAW06XGM:&tbnh=68&tbnw=68&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSouvenir%2Bd%2527Alphonse%2BLavall%25C3%25A9e%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dda%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:da:official%26sa%3DN

Erinnerung an Brod/ portrayed as SDAL

http://www.namen-der-rosen.de/lavallee.html

Erinnerung an Brod/ labeled as SDAL

http://www.rosesdantan.com/pages/souvenir_d_alphonse_lavallee.htm

The real SDAL

http://portraits.deroses.free.fr/pages/Souvenir d%27Alphonse Lavall%E9e.html

A personal homepage that shows the real SDAL:

http://images.google.dk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.danielschmitz-roses.com/images/vignettes/TEMPSPASSE/SouvenirD%27AlphonseLavallee.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.danielschmitz-roses.com/pages/vigntempspastous.htm&h=75&w=75&sz=3&hl=da&start=4&um=1&tbnid=r2wSFRSJQ_vpCM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=71&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSouvenir%2Bd%2527Alphonse%2BLavall%25C3%25A9e%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dda%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:da:official%26sa%3DN

Botanical artist and Heritage Rose Enthusiast Marieta Visagie made a wonderful portrait of SDAL :

http://www.fineart33.com/portfolio.html

I spent four hours yesterday in the Uppsala University Botanic Garden with a group of six rosarians, all of us trying to identify unknown roses brought by visitors and know how difficult it can be to name a rose. It is a pity the old descriptions were not more detailed. The flower is not much to go by.

I grow both roses. The rose at my friends house in Antibes, was bought from Guillot (who has the real SDAL). The 3 roses I bought from different nurseries in europe all turned out to to be Erinnerung an Brod. When I ordered the rose from Guillot I finally got the real SDAL.

The reason I know that the rose Amiroses (and Leander) pictured is Erinnerung An Brod is the sepals that can be seen on the last picture in the line of pictures on HMF Roses, Photo Id: 23885.

The sepals on Erinnerung an Brod Looks like this:

While the sepals on SDAL looks like this:

For comparison: EAB to the left and SDAL to the right:

Notice the tiny prickles/that almost looks like glandular growth on the peduncle/stem of EAB. while the peduncle/stem on SDAL is smooth.

Also notice that the same glandular growth is on the sepal of EAB while the sepals of SDAL is smooth.

The rosebud pictured by AmiRoses clearly shows the sepals of EAB, with the glandular growth.

Then there is the shape of the Flower... EAB is the shaped of domed rosette where the petals reflex backwards creating a domeshaped flower in the later stages.

SDAL is cupshaped! Sometimes some of the outer petals reflex a little and the cupshape becomes a little more loose, but never becomes domed like EAB:

For Comparison:

The colour of EAB becomes lighter during its development: picture showing stages of EAB and the colour change (younger to the left and older to right:

EAb does the complete opposite starts out dark red and becomes crimsom/dark red and becomes darker and darker purple as the flower ages:

The rose Leander pictured is also EAB. Notice the sepals and the glandular growth consistent with EAB on Photo Id: 69484, and Photo Id: 69485.

Also notice the stamens that clearly shows on EAB, but never on SDAL. Like Lori Elf also noticed.

The roses pictures in Botanica of roses is clearly SDAL and the same rose I see in Antibes, and grow myself and that I got from Guillot.

If you can take a picture of the stem and the sepals Lori, it is fairly easy to say if you got EAB or SDAL.

The problem is documenting that Guillot has the original SdAL. Though I belive many experts agree that Erinnerung an Brod version is the original Geschwind rose.

Whoo! What a stunning rose. I hope it makes it over here.

But they list RU as a source and Vintage as a custom root.
Cupshaped? Are these the real thing?

Jeri

Jeri: When me and a friend visited the Guillot family in 2004, to make an article about the Guillot rose family and take pictures of Generosa Roses, we showed him pictures of the 3 roses sold as SDAL in Europe and asked Jan-Pierre Guillot about the origin of Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée and other old garden roses in their collection. According to their files they got the budwood cuttings from The Hybridizer Charles-Félix Verdier himself in 1889. I have to take his word about that, since a second confirmation is impossible since other who could confirm this beeing the real SDAL are dead long ago. The 2 other vendors in Europe that I am sure about selling the real SDAL got their budwood from Guillot. The SDALs I saw in Rosarium Sangerhousen is also the real SDAL. But they do not know where they got their roseplants from. The rest of the major vendors sell either EAB or Souvenir Du DR. Jamain.

It is so nice that we here in Europe has Rose vendors with a
178 years history, that has kept track of the origin of the roses they sell, unlike the own root companies in America that only seems to have a lifespan of 10-15 years and then they loose the knowledge about the origin of the roses they sell.

Jim: I checked out Ru and did not find SDAL in their Alphabetical list of roses they carry. I did notice that Vintage Seems to sell SDAL custom Rooted. They do however not show a picture of the rose they sell as SDAL. Perhaps someone that lives near Vintages Gardens can provide pictures that can be used to identify if they got the real SDAL? Also perhaps lori_elf can show us pictures of the Rose she got from RU that can be used to identify their rose?

If it turns out that neither carry the real SDAL I would be willing to send budwood to a compagny in America that can propagate plants (by budding) and has a quarantine zone for roses so we do exchange roses and not spread diseases/ and bugs.

I strongly discourage any to illegally import roses. I lust so must after some roses that seems to be awailable only in America, but I will not be the one that introduce new diseases and bugs like the scales you have over there or viruses by illegal carrying the roses home in my suitcases. That is too irresponsible and dangerous! Sometimes we have to be patient until we can get the rose legally.

And this rose is worth waiting for! Because of the hardiness, good disease resistance (better than most HPs),
the beauty of the flowers and the good vase life as a cut flower, but also the magnificent scent: like Guillot writes about the rose:

"Les Fleurs du Mal" do exist. Full and velvety, of a shaded black crimson, the flowers exhale in a burst of violet. Their scent should be forbidden such as is the intoxicating effect.

Rose propagators sell their roses under the name the rose has become commonly known, even if they know it is probably not the original name. It sometimes take a lot of effort to make the large rose propagators to change the name they have sold a rose under for a long time.

Those early dark HP's are my favorites, among some others.

For the record, smuggling rose cuttings from Europe is only a daydream. I'd never actually do it, and I understand how irresponsible it is.

However, if you get to a point where you actually can send budwood over I'm sure there are many of us here willing to do the legwork to find one or (preferrably) several suitable nurseries to propagate this little marvel. I know of one small one here in NY that I could go and ask, and I'd even be willing to drive out to Lowes in NH if need be. I'm sure there are other intrepid souls in other parts of the US who would be similary motivated. Email is all well and good, but it can't beat a face-to-face visit.

If we in the US can ease the burden for you, and thereby hasten the process, then everybody wins. I hereby volunteer.

Do I sound too eager? Well, I am.

I hope Lori will post a closeup showing sepals.

PLEASE-- could people posting on this thread use the return key to break up long
lines caused by the huge URL posted earlier?

I knew you were only joking Cavallo! ? But some would do it!

I have 6 of these plants and I budded 10 more plants, of which
8 are growing now in my cutting garden. So I can and am willing to send budwood to any vendor in the US that is willing to propagate this roseplant, so it can be made
avaible for sale to those of you in America that want to
grow this rose.

I am familiar with sending budwood of rare rose within Europe (No paperwork needed) but I guess the importation
process is a little different when sending budwood to the US.

So should I send Paul from Ashdown an Email and inquire if
he has rootstock ready and is willing to import the budwood canes I can send in late july and again in late september
when the budwood canes are mature enough to send?

Taoseeker are you living here in Europe?

Does Lori have Dr. Jamain?

That would be the time between the death of Marc Guillot in 1953, and 1972, when Jean-Pierre Guillot re-started operations.
He, of course, re-stocked the nursery and moved it from Saint-Prest to Chamagnieu.
I checked on that, back when we were exploring the provenance of the supposed 'Irene Watts' -- which (like most of their other roses) Guillot had re-acquired when the firm was re-newed.
It is SO difficult to be positive about these things.
Even Sangerhausen identifications, as we know, have not always been accurate over time.

Jeri

And Cass: Oculation is the latin term for budding. A bud eye (oculus is latin and means eye).

So Taoseeker I bet you know of Dag Lyngar then?

And Jeri: Yes we will never know with 100 percent certainty
that this is the real SDAL. All I know for sure is that it
is not EAB and not SDDJ. I have to rely on that Jean-Pierre
Guillot acquired the right SDAL. It will be one of the
things I will look into next time I visit Sangerhausen.
Where did they obtain there SDAL plants from? I did recognize
it as this rose. Also I will look further into the origin of
SDALs growing in England.

I think as long as the plant material is not on its own root and comes in the mail as "sticks without leafs" then it is all right. I have had budwood sent from Germany in an envelope and the customs did not protest; but roots and soil need health sertificate.

Oculating is much the same as budding I supose, though it is only an "eye" from the cane (the part on the cane just above where the leaf grows out and that has an eye that can sprout a new cane) that are grafted onto a T-shaped cut in the rootneck of the rootstock. (As opposed to a whole bit of the cane like they do with fruit trees). I hope it is possible to understand me, English was not my first language. Perhaps budding is the correct term in Engish.

Jeri

Chip budding, T-budding and reverse chip budding are the techniques I know about. The differences relate to the shape of the cut and flap made on the receiving budwood as well as the time of year the budding occurs. Chip budding can take place any time of year the rootstock and dormant budeyes can be found in the same place as the budder - - no need to wait for the rootstock's bark to slip. When the need arises, I've seen roses budded to almost any vigorous rose handy -- Rosa gigantea, Baltimore Belle, Mme. Plantier, Cardinal Hume...

*** WELL NOW! THAT is a rosarian after my own heart!
Reasearch is great. Research is wonderful. But . . .
If it is a good rose, it is valuable for itself.
I am more than happy to grow it under a studyname and enjoy it, and share it with others.

Jeri

The best check on identities is having the roses seen by the most knowledgable people.
That's why high quality online pictures are so valuable. Apple is working on its color-managed browser, Safari, for Windows.
That will be a help. Now if we can just convince everyone that prickles and leaves are part of the rose.

Whatever this rose is, it is indeed beautiful - and if we have any confusion in our country over the identity of 'Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavalee', it certainly hasn't made it much easier to acquire 'Erinnerung an Brod' here. It would clearly be more than worth someone like Ashdown importing this version of Alphonse.

If you're ever busy sending budwood anyway, maybe you could throw in a few sticks of R. helenae 'Hybrida' while you're at it. This is a rose we dearly need for its great hardiness, even more than another red HP (however lovely). There is a large part of our country where ramblers could grow, but can't, because of its absence.

"Modest flowers of exceptional form, with many petals, cupped in a regular form,
deep pomegranite (sic) red with crimson shadings; in cool weather this rose can be
very dark. Its canes are soft and smooth with few thorns."

Erinnerung an Brod (which they don't even offer) could hardly be described as
'cupped in a regular form.' Their description of Dr. Jamain is quite different,
and has a photo. Unfortunately, they have no photo available for their Alphonse.

Could this be the real deal?
How would I go about asking them delicately without infuriating them?

I have sent Mr Paul Zimmerman from Ashdown an email asking him if he want to import my Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée, and will send him budwood if he wants to and have rootstocks ready.

Stefan: Of course I can send some Hybrida canes as well!
anything else you want? So Minette is Banshee?

Thank you Cass for the link to chip budding. I normally use T-budding on multiflora rootstock. I also got your hint about posting pics of more than just the flowers so it will be easier to identify certain roses.

Also Taoseeker I would be willing to to send you some budwood canes so you can have them custombudded when the time is right in your area.

That said, I know we are missing two more Scandinavian helenae hybrids 'Lykkefund' and 'Aksel Olsen', if you have those - even though they aren't as hardy as 'Hybrida' they seem to be excellent ramblers.

'Hurdalsrosen' is a wonderful sounding alba that has never graced our shores, and two interesting davidii hybrids 'Fenja' and 'Syvdal' have also never been seen here to my knowledge. But that is all really gilding the lily - so my wish list is as short as 'Hybrida'! And you have just about taken my breath away at even the hint of a possibility of being able to grow her finally!

Cupshaped, do you also grow Empress of the North/Kaiserin des Nordens/Pohjolan Kuningatar
that you could add to the mix? Anything that lives in through a Russian winter
ought to be able to take upstate New York. ;~)

Cass, that's a real beauty - I wonder if it has any of the fall color that Rosa davurica sports. I don't think I've ever seen a rose put on as colorful or long-lasting a show as that species - it's honestly like botanical fireworks (there's a plant of it in my garden at work, from seed collected wild in Russia, I think). I'll try to snap a photo this autumn.

The Rose will probably stay a 3-4 feet tall bush in zone 5-6 and grow taller and wider in warmer climate zones. Almost all my red Austins will be replaced by this rose (it blooms more, is more vigorous and the blooms do not blow fast in hot sunny periods. It has an outstanding fragrance and the same colours as some of the dark red Austins like The Prince, Tradescant, Prospero and Falstaff.

I might also send a plant of the very, very rare Bourbon Rev. H. d'Ombrain. There are very few plants left in the world (I fear we are down to less than 25 plants of this rose (I have 10 of them) and all nurseries in Europe that claims to have the rose , no longer have this rose (Only one nursery near a German Castle have it).

It´s my hope that more rosarians will make an effort to preserve really good Old Garden Roses and propagate and share plants with rosariums worldwide. Otherwise we will loose some roses forever ...

And Stefan is right: without rosenurseries like Ashdown and others who are willing to make an effort to import good roses, some roses will never be available. But where there is a will there is a way...

Cavallo: I have not been able to find Hélène Maréchal anywhere in Europe? It does sound like a wonderful rose though (the parentage hints the possibility of it beeing really fragrant) but never seen or heard of it and not able to trace a plant in Europe. If you are able to locate a plant it might be possible to import it.

Cass: I have sent you an email about Empress of the North/Kaiserin des Nordens. Maybe Sitka is the same rose and it seems to be availble in the US. I do not grow this rose and have never seen it.

This rose is enchanting. How do you all think it would grow in zone 10 (Israel)? I am about to import budwood from Peter Beales (got my import permit) and they stock this rose...

Thanks
Joanna

An address and phone number can be found here;

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=17.3690

Unfortunately, searching their website turns up nothing. However, it may be
worthwhile contacting them to ask what may have become of it, or if perhaps
they know of any other small nurseries who may have it.

Also, this page lists three gardens in Europe who grow Hélène Maréchal;

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=37713&tab=17

Perhaps, if it turns out that this plant is so very rare, one of these gardens
could be persuaded to supply a bud as a service to the world.

It would be a tragedy if a rose with such a fascinating pedigree was allowed to
pass into history.

http://www.cheminsdelarose.fr/pages/inventai.htm

http://www.aspeco.net/perso/farguettes.html

Of course, this is all straying a bit from the topic. Perhaps a new one needs to
be started?

Why not start a new thread about 'Helene Marechal'? It sounds like an interesting cultivar, although I do wonder how hardy it is. One could always try reproducing the cross that originated it if all else fails.

Carol

It is also my impression that both owners of Ashdown and Vintage Gardens are interested in preserving roses and share plant material, so the best OGRs is available for sale in USA.

Cavallo I will look into the links you provided and see if I can find Helene Marechal. If so It may be possible for Ashdowns European connection to import the roses. Importing a rose from a European Nursery to here is sometimes a risky business ... I have seen roses taking roses 26 days to get here from France (Rotten and dried out and terrible quality) and then add the time it would take to get to Ashdown. By then it would be a miracle if the plant survived. It´s way easier if I grew the roses myself and had fresh plants I could harvest and send correct packaged so they do not dry out. But lets see if I can find a plant ...

Cupshaped,
I have to tell you, you are one of the most interesting,
talented, and generous people I have met here. The
supports you build are amazing and one-of-a-kind!
And thank you for sending me all of those pics of
'your' 'Gerbe Rose' and 'Ayshire Splendens'! You are
always so generous with your advice and I know you put
alot of time into it, so, I just wanted to thank you!
It is very much appreciated,
alida

Hello, cupshaped roses. That's an interesting statement - I presume, then, that Beales is one of the two correct European vendors you mention higher in the thread and that therefore his version is from Guillot . . . ?

I understand that Ashdown are Beales's North American 'representative'. Perhaps Peter could supply Paul with the rose and save you the trouble?

Thanks for an entertaining thread!

Best wishes
Jon

Since I have got the plants and I am sure about their origin I will rather export the plants and the budwood I have to make sure the real SDAL ends up being exported. This way I can also make sure Hybrida and the Bourbon Rev. H. d'Ombrain can be sent too.

Also Jon I have budwood to send to Holland to propagate plants for cuttings that are going to be send to Ashdown. This way we can make more plants avaiable faster, since AshDown mostly sell own Root roses.

So all who are interested can get wonderful rose:

Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée

I have come to think of something: personal taste does play a part in which roses are going to be preserved and live on.
I remember when I discovered the bourbon rose at the Castle nearby. Among 600 other OGRs we saw that day ... this was the most fragrant rose!!! We took a cutting it grew well in my friends garden. Then I began looking for it and for 3 years I was not able to find one plant in Europe. The 3 plants at the Castle and the one growing in my friends garden from the cutting seemed to be the only plants. No Vendor had the rose for sale. Some had it listed but did not have it and could not find it even though they promised to look for it get me some plants. So I grafted plants from budwood from my friend´s plant. I later learned that it was sold at a nursery near a german Castle. Relatives of the Danish Royal family. So here was yet another rose that was nearly extinct. I offered budwood to the Bourbon collection in England since they had bot been able to find a plant in England. But mr. Lewis had passed away and they would not add more plants to their collection. It is so interesting about these rare roses ... I think there are many gems out there were are loosing all the time. So everyone that loves roses should look out for roses that are worth preserving.

Thank you for your kind words Alida! There are many nice and helpful people like you and me here on the forum that are willing to share their experience about growing certain roses.

jbfoodie: The SDAL I see in Antibes in Southern France (zone 9-10) is 6-7 feet tall and about 5-6 feet wide with arching canes. It is a very big rosebush with hundreds of the fragrant flowers. It can be grown either as a big solitary rosebush probably best kept pruned to about 5-6 feet tall or a low climber trained against a low trellis/ or a wall probably to 7-8 feet tall.

Like I wrote, I grow it as a 3-4 feet tall and 3 feet wide solitary rosebush in my zone 5-6 climate.

jbfoodie: You are right! like many of the Red HPs they
actually do better in partial shade. The colour of the
flowers becomes a better red... and do not crisp as they
tend to do if it is placed where it gets sun all day.

I am sure this rose can be espaliered in warmer zones ( 6
and higher). Even here it sometimes shoot a very long 7-8
feet cane ( I cut it ) but they could have been espaliered,
to produce more laterals and flowers. In some ways it can be
grown as Souvenir du Dr. Jamain (Which btw not do too well
for me ..(But this rose is more vigourous, healthy and I
think has more beautiful and stronger scented flowers. It is
really one of the best red HPs ever bred! I grow 5 other
Red HPs ( Alfred Colomb, SDDJ, Eugene furst, Hugh Dickson,
and Emperor de Maroc) and this is the best of them all. So
no wonder I try to enable you to give this rose a try when
it becomes avaible for sale in USA.

I did see this rose at Heirloom Roses, but it is out of stock. Does anyone know if it is authentic at Heirloom Roses?