Karen, I think it depends upon the cultivars involved. I've found that some roses put out fairly long laterals, so that the covered "teepee" takes up quite a bit of horizntal space. Others don't.
Here, for example, is 'Lady Carolina,' a pretty unruly rose if not corralled. The poles are 8 ft. long, so the "teepee" is probably close to 6 ft. tall. The whole thing is probably getting close to 5 ft. in diameter -- and I suspect it could get wider.
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You've got to remember to leave room between these, to deadhead and re-tie them.

Jeri

Jeri--what is the diameter of the teepee under your Lady Carolina? I am never sure how to space the rebar. I have a couple of roses where the base of the teepee is 2 feet in diameter.

Hmmmm . . . Good question.
I'd make a guess that the bases of the poles form a diameter of perhaps 4 ft.
Remember -- I am working with poles that are 8 ft. long. But I don't just know whether I could manage longer ones. It's getting up there to bind the tops of the poles together that would be tough.

Jeri

Jeri, do you have one (1) Lady Carolina in the center of the tipi or one at each leg (3) ?

Bill

I have been placing my three rebar 'poles' on a 2 foot diameter circle. They are 10 feet long and I have to get up on a very tall ladder to pound them into the ground with my sledge hammer. I have a very young Secret Garden Musk Climber on one and now am wondering if this rose will overwhelm the teepee? I guess I could move them out further if necessary.

Bill, that is ONE Lady Carolina, planted on the outside of the topmost pole. (NOte, this is on a hillside, not on flat ground).
I can show you a similar teepee, on flat ground, using Excellenz von Schubert. I think it may even be a bit wider at the base than this one, and it is also just one plant.

Foodie -- I' bet on SGMC wanting a bit more room than that. The good news is that it seems not to mind a reasonably stern winter pruning. The bad news is that its new laterals could be 3.5-4 ft long.

The other concern, I think, is -- does your garden get hit by windstorms?
Ours is mostly a south-facing hillside -- which means that both West winds and East winds sweep across it. I'd worry about something 8 or so feet tall (2 ft into the ground?) and only 2 ft. in bottom dia., in a 60-mph East wind. (NOTE: DH disagrees, and says it should be fine. He's an Engineer -- he's likely correct.)

Jeri

I have a Prosperity on Fortuniana that I'm told is going to get BIG, but I'm not sure what BIG means so don't know how to place my rebar. It's been in the ground maybe 2 months and has at least five 4-ft canes that want to lay flat on the ground. It is located at the corner of my patio. Is this rose going to be wide as well as tall. Should I tie the canes straight up or wrap them? If I used three 10-ft rebars, would 3 ft apart be enough? I hadn't thought of tying the tops into a teepee. I was going to bend a foot of the tops of the rebars into a right angle and then attach pieces of rebar to extend outward if the rose gained more height, lashing the three verticals together near the top with rebar pieces. So, is 3 ft far enough apart, or should I go 4 ft or more? If anyone has a photo of a mature Prosperity Climbing, I'd love to see it. I'd know better what I'm dealing with.
Thanks everyone. Sherry

Jeri,
I'd love to see your Excellenz von Schubert photo. I didn't think he was suppose to get that big! How big is the one you have?
jim

Sherry -- Prosperity does NOT want to grow here. It's never put out a cane longer than 4 ft. and arching. That doesn't mean it won't do it somewhere else, but it ain't no climber HERE. If I had to bet money, I'd bet that it hates our alkaline conditions.

Jim -- Excellenz von Schubert IS a climber in Southern California. I've seen photos of it climbing a big arch in a garden a few miles inland from my location (and warmer). It might be an arching shrub in a different climate?
Here, it is on a teepee of 8-ft. poles, spread out a good 4.5 ft. at the bottom. You can see that it is "rangier" than the similar arrangement, done with Lady Carolina.
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Jeri

Some very good info, thanks!

But it seems that there is a misunderstanding of my original question.

According to Heirloom, whom I bought my roses from, I would be placing them 5 feet apart in a row at the back of the border. But it seemed that Robert said you could put roses closer together if you tied them on these teepees.

So, I was wondering, these roses normally would take up 5 feet in width each growing without any support as a shrub. But tied to a teepee how much space should I allow for each rose?

It seems like they wouldn't take up as much room and I could put them closer together. Remember, I am only going to put one rose on each teepee.

Thanks,
Karen

Well, I don't know.
DH thinks you could base the tripods more narrowly, and he's usually right about such things. If you put them on smaller base diameters, you could squeeze them together more closely.

But, Karen -- 'WARE putting things too closely together!
If nothing else, you MUST allow space for you to get in there, between and behind the pillars-of-roses, to re-tie and deadhead.

Other than that, I can't help you, because I've never done narrow-based tripods. HEH. I'm just under 5 ft tall -- lower/wider tripods are easier for me. :-)

Jeri

Jeri, on flat ground do you generally plant the rose inside the tripod?

Also, I've seen illustrations calling for three (3) roses...one on each leg...all wrapping around one tripod. And I scratch my head and wonder how that would work? Is that just for places where roses die back in winter and stay kind of "small'"?

I'd think here one rose is more than enough for a tipi. Or am I missing something?

Karen,

I've been using these teepees a lot. I often find that, when a rose I've planted in a cluster is spreading too widely and invading other roses's space, I drive the 10ft rebars into the ground and secure them at the top; then tie the "wild" rose to the structure. My point is that, instead of re-locating a "spreading" rose, I just train it vertically. I do think it makes sense, however, to be able to have some room to maneuver around them, but this isn't always possible in my collection. When a rose on rebar seems to be sending out canes that are wider then the alloted space (i.e., beyond the rebar dimensions I had intended for it, I just pull the canes to the rebar and secure it to the structure with twine...or I cut the canes to fit.) I am finding that some of the roses grow much taller than the teepee (perhaps 6 feet taller, then, the canes start arching back down...it's a lovely sight for me). Some of my rebar teepees are as close as 2-3 ft from each other (Golden Celebration and Jude the Obscure come to mind...as well as MIP and Constance Spry). I would like to say that it IS wiser to set the rebar a little wider at the bottom. I've set a couple of them at only about an 18" diameter, and when the rose gets top heavy the structure can get wobbly.

When a description of a rose says it's gonna need to be spaced 5 ft apart, this is not always reliable information. It really is gonna depend on your climate. An excellent example is the David Austin roses. Most descriptions of the David Austin roses suggest that they will stay 3-4 ft x 3-4 ft.... This is probably for a climate in England. For me 3-4 ft might really end up being 10-12 ft.... no exaggeration. So, when I space roses, it's always a "wait and see what's goon a happen" thing.

In your situation, I'd space the individual teepees as far apart as I could to fill the space. If the roses don't exceed their space, plant other roses in between the teepees..

And, I ALWAYS put a clematis with the roses on the teepees...

I hope this helps some.

Robert

Robert, you understood my question perfectly!

I live in the Pacific NW which has a climate like England. I am 40 minutes away from Heirloom roses which I have been visiting almost every other day. They have the biggest display garden of any nursery in the USA. We take a picnic lunch and I take a few of my kids and we have been loving it. I have bought about 50 roses in bands and now I am ready to plant.

On these roses in question, this spacing is what Heirloom says, though they do say in our climate they may get bigger. I have a 'virgin' garden so to speak and would like to make good decisions about spacing from the start. I know it won't be perfect.

Also, (the biggest reason!), I fell in love with too many roses and bought too many and so I was wondering if I could squeeze them closer with teepees! LOL!

Karen

Jeri, on flat ground do you generally plant the rose inside the tripod?

*** NOPE. On flat ground, in an ideal situation, we site the rose on the "outside" of one of the three poles.
If you put the teepee over the rose, you will be shading the plant when its canes are grown up. And after all, that's where new canes must come from.
Also, read carefully Robert's description of what he's doing. That's right on target. We have OFTEN planted roses, thinking they would be a certain size. Perhaps they WERE that size for a year or two -- but they they've "broken out" and turned into Octopi. That's where the tripod is MOST valuable, as it turns a mistake into an asset.

BTW -- as Re. plant size:
Clair Martin (who has looked at even more Austins than I have) noted that, if the Austin description says a plant will be 3 ft. or so, you can probably trust that, even in Southern California. IF, OTOH, the description approaches 4 ft or (Gawdhelpus) 5 ft, you are probably going to be dealing with a Jolly Green Giant.
In my experience, Clair has been 100% correct about that.

Jeri

Karen,
I had meant to post some pictures which show how closely I have put some of the teepees...you can judge if they're too close for your needs...
Robert
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this is a mystery rose that I planted as a wilted twig in the middle of July 2006...I got it from a friend. It completely covered the teepee in half a year.
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