Thanks,
Diane

I grew it for a while, but lost it -- it wan't in a great location -- but it WAS exquisite.

For me, it grew as a bush-form Tea Rose.

Last I heard, the true 'La Biche' was thought to be lost.

Diane

I think the next time I visit Rosemary, I am bringing the truck, and then hopefully she has one left La Biche left

Rosemary is a really nice person, and I would not hesitate to ask her for updated info.

Do you have her email address? Could you send it to me?

I am very curious, but either way I think this rose is on my want list.

The situation with the tea rose Mlle de Sombreuil in the US is more of a muddle today than it has ever been. Because now we have a found tea rose without provenance, and with a very weak identification, being sold in the US as the famous tea rose Mlle de Sombreuil. It would have been better if the unknown tea in commerce in the US was sold as what it is, a found rose, than attaching it to the name of a famous rose before more thorough research was done. Such as was done with the found rose Maggie where DNA examination was performed and her real identity confirmed via this route.

This id of the found white tea rose was done by Phillip Robinson (of Vintage Gardens)--he sent his found rose to the Huntington for id, and they thought it was the noisette La Biche (and it started being sold in the US under that name). He also went to France and looked at the rose Mlle de Sombreuil growing at L'Hay and thought it looked like his found white tea rose, so therefore it was that rose. Unfortunately that was a premature and superficial identification.

John Hook has clones of Mlle de Sombreuil from L'Hay, Tete d'or, and Sangerhausen, as well as the found white tea rose from the US (aka Huntington La Biche, aka Vintage Mlle de Sombreuil) plus the climber Colonial White (called and sold as Sombreuil in the US) and the noisette La Biche from L'Hay. He has been able to grow and compare them. From this longer, more detailed, and close-up comparison, he says that the tea Mlle de Sombreuil from L'Hay is NOT the same rose as the tea Vintage is selling as Mlle de Sombreuil (aka Huntington La Biche). Whereas he says of the noisette La Biche, the true one, from L'Hay is a "typical noisette with medium size double flowers our plant matches the Jamain, Hippolyte litho on HelpMeFind".

In France, La Roseraie du désert sells the US found white tea rose (that Vintage and some other nurseries in the US sell as Mlle de Sombreuil) as Huntington La Biche and not as Mlle de Sombreuil.

The American Rose Society really needs to re-examine its position on Huntington La Biche aka Vintage Mlle de Sombreuil.

Melissa

Melissa, my head is spinning from this rose puzzle.

I phoned Rosemary this morning and asked her about her La Biche. She said she obtained it from Sequoia Nursery when it was in business and that she was not aware of the controversy surrounding this rose.

The more I look at my plant, the more it looks like a Tea rose.

Photos soon as I can.

Diane

In reality, Teas are more than just hybrids between Rosa chinensis and Rosa gigantea. From the beginning, they were bred with Bourbons and Noisettes, and this changed them from the original, smaller, twiggy plants like "Bermuda Spice" -- which today we'd call Tea-like Chinas -- into the larger climbers and shrubs that were introduced later.

The lines between Noisettes, Bourbons, Teas and Chinas have fuzzy, overlapping edges. One of the most popular Bourbons is 'Souvenir de la Malmaison', whose Tea parent shows through. 'Mme Dore' is another Bourbon which was probably bred from a Tea ancestor, based on observing my own plant. Then I look at 'Reine Victoria' and its sport 'Mme Pierre Oger' and see how China- or Tea-leaning they are. In fact, they remind me somewhat of a popular big Tea -- 'Duchesse de Brabant'. Or what about the found rose called "Sophie's Perpetual" which is usually classed as a China based on growth, but has the Damask scent? It must have heavy China influence but somehow retained the Bourbon fragrance. When classes are based on combining two other classes, it's possible when they breed amongst themselves for offspring to lean one way or the other -- especially if back-crossed to either parent class.

I think that back in the days when many roses were raised from OP hips collected in gardens containing an array of roses from different classes, anything introduced was assigned its class based on that of its seed-parent (if known), or whatever class it most resembled if neither parent was known. Look at how many roses (including Teas) have no parentage recorded. I wonder how many were grown from "mystery hips" and a watchful gardener said "hmm...looks Tea-like to me."

:-)

~Christopher

The Huntington had in turn obtained it from Phillip Robinson, who found it in Northern California. (NoCal has been a rich source of Old and Forgotten roses.)

What that Tea rose was originally called, I have no clue. I have grown it, and it was very much a Tea in my garden. It's real, ORIGINAL history remains un-known, and if it is NOT 'La Biche,' and NOT 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' it really needs a Study Name of its own.
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The Climbing rose, heavily Wichurana in Character, sometimes called "Sombreuil," and sometimes called "Colonial White," is not a Tea and was never a Tea.
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Christopher, as early as Modern Roses 3 (the earliest I own) and as late as Modern Roses 12, 'Marechal Niel' was still classed as a Noisette. It was called by some a "Tea-Noisette" -- but that was unofficial.

I LIKE the classification "Tea-Noisette," but I have not heard that ARS has adopted it. Has something happened recently to change that?

Along those lines, what I'd call Damask Perpetuals are roses that basically grow like Gallicas but get their rebloom and fragrance from Damasks -- and exclude the shorter Hybrid Perpetuals like 'Comte de Chambord' because they appear and "behave" somewhat different(ly). In my garden, I think of 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' and 'Mme Dore' as "Bourbon-Teas", and 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' as a "Bourbon-Noisette" because that's how they appear and "behave", and it reminds me that they aren't to be treated the same as 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' and 'Mme Sevigne' which I consider more "typical" long-caned Bourbons.

:-)

~Christopher