Hi Lynn, I'm glad you start a thread dedicated to OGR's.

Here's a vital info. you wrote in the other thread: " My sandy soil is very alkaline but it is highly amended with compost. In the past, I had good luck with Austins."

I find that the type of soil is just as vital as the climate. Romanticas bloom much better in my alkaline clay soil than Austins. Marie Pavie was bred in France, so were Romanticas and Meilland roses (hint: they all like it soaking wet). Roses that bloom well in my alkaline clay won't be suitable for sandy soil, since clay retains moisture better than sand.

I put sulfur around Marie Pavie, and she blooms more this year. It's easy to put sulfur on a rose, but it's hard to change your sandy soil to clay. Rugosa is known as "beach rose", since it tolerates sandy soil and drought. However, Rugosa blooms best in acidic soil.

The question is: which roses were bred in high heat, sandy alkaline soil, and who grows such roses? Where they were bred helps to choose what's best for your soil and climate.

The breeder Robert Neil Rippetoe has similar climate like yours in Rancho Mirage, CA, where temp. is over 100's, low rainfall. He has sandy and alkaline soil. Tamora gets 2 of his fav. votes. See below link for the roses that he grows:

Here is a link that might be useful: Photos of Robert Neil's roses

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 11:29

Hi Strawberryhill,

My front yard has sandy alkaline soil. The roses receive morning sun, filtered sun and then are in the shade. What if I added a medium to the planting hole that has polymers to help retain moisture. That big bag of potting mix I accidentally purchased has moisture retaining polymers.

My side yard is clay. I have had two homes in Nevada, both had sandy soil. My current resident is very far north of the two and I remember digging a hole on the side yard and found that the full length of it on one side is clay soil. It was definitely more difficult to dig those holes.

Thank you for the link. I have been attempting to follow the posts of Phoenix OGR/Austin's roses gardeners; because barring the fact that our winters are colder, and there is less rainfall here, if they can grow it, I should be able to.

Lynn

Not terribly exciting maybe but good ole Iceberg and its sports might work.

I have Cecile Brunner along my sidewalk which is partially shaded and I love this rose. I'm thinking it is about the only polyantha that I have been happy with. It is easily kept about 2 or 3 feet (has to be trimmed to keep it that small but doesn't seem to mind at all). I love the delicate blooms and it is just a great rose. Very charming. Love it love it.

That's a great idea you have, Lynn, mixing potting soil with your sandy soil. I did an experiment this summer with my 12 tomatoes: the holes with MiracleGro Moisture control potting soil mixed in (has cococut coir for moisture-retention) grew the largest and most healthy tomatoes.

The holes with native clay soil, average. The holes with clay mixed with perlite was worst: soaking wet. Most roses like it well-drained like tomatoes, except for Romanticas who bloom like mad in soaking wet clay.

My King Arthur (Samaritan) rose is most yellow, since I put too much sulfur in the hole. Mix in well-balanced potting soil is SAFER than too much of one thing, be it peat moss, sulfur, or manure. I put too much peat moss one time, it glued up. One time I mixed manure in the hole, it got too hot with salt-burnt.

For water-hogs like Romanticas, clay is best since Romanticas have vigorous roots just like Dr. Huey. Folks root roses in sand, or good potting soil. Wimpy own-roots might root better in your sandy soil than my rock-hard clay.

What I like most about Old Garden Roses is they demand less water than either Romanticas or Hybrid teas. I don't water own-roots Paul Neyron nor Comte de Chambord, in their second year.

Gruss an Teplitz looked really bad since I put the pot in 3 hours of morning sun, and we have constant rain.... He was covered with aphids. Thanks to Kim (Roseseek), I didn't kill it, but moved it to full-sun ... no more aphids, no more weak stems. His scent is glorious, no modern rose can match. Khalid in Parkistan reported that Gruss an Teplitz as own-root grow like weeds in 120 degrees temp, saline and alkaline soil, pH above 8.

Hi Lynn: Marie Pavie is worth keeping, Robert Neil in his Rancho Mirage sandy alkaline soil likes Marie Pavie so much that he uses it for breeding. He also grows Annie L. McDowell. More info: "Average annual rainfall in Rancho Mirage is just 3.38 inches. The sun usually shines 350 of the year's 365 days... July temp. around 108 degrees."

During our last year drought and over 100 degrees, Marie Pavie looked BEST compared to 1,200 roses at the park. The first year, I gave Marie P. tons of water (pH of 8), she didn't bloom despite my fertile clay. This year I put sulfur around her, and fix my water (1 tablespoon of vinegar per gallon), and she blooms constantly.

It's easier to make the soil/water acidic, than to prune a bush to be as pretty as Marie Pavie (thornless, pretty leaves). Annie L. McDowell in front, Marie Pavie in back:

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 14:19

For more alkaline-tolerant, is Bolero. It's the most-drought and heat tolerant among the Romanticas. Petals don't fry at above 100.

Bolero likes alkaline clay ... I don't need to put sulfur nor acid in my water, it blooms constantly, despite being planted next to 2 big trees. The bush-shape isn't as round nor perfect like Marie Pavie.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 13:22

Strawberryhill, I was originally considering Marie Pave and Bolero, but decided upon Marie Pave due to the smaller bloom size and reported fragrance. Because this rose will be near spanish lavender and in a bed with two large trees, grasses, day lilies and a dry river bed with large river rocks and now, since I have been standing in the street, visualizing the area, in my mind's eye, I see a rose that is not well formed or rigid, but maybe something with a weak neck, or less formal looking, so the flowers can nod toward the dry river bed.

jaspermplants, Cecile Brunner is very pretty and the perfect size. Which OGR's and Austin's have been good in your garden?

Hi Lynn: The high pH of tap water is the biggest challenge I face, more so than high temp. or drought. I can improve the planting hole with potting soil, or with coarse sand, but it's a nuisance to lower the water pH.

In my garden, vigor determines success in extreme heat or winter dryness. The ones that like alkaline soil and tap water wins out. In my extreme cold winter of -20 degree, or extreme summer heat at 100, the Romanticas win over Austins by far, because Romanticas can bloom with high pH water. As own-roots Austins can't, except for Evelyn, Golden Celebration, and Pat Austin. The faults with Pat Austin are: flowers shatters, and it needs shade.

I notice that dark-green leaves such as the 3 Austins mentioned above, Angel Face, Romanticas, Old Port, Sephen's Big Purple, Gruss an Teplitz bloom well with alkaline soil and water. Blooming well is an indication that roots are growing well, which helps in heat and drought survival.

As own-roots, the lighter-leaves like Paul Neyron, Comte de Chambord, Charles Darwin, Blue Mist, Baby Faurax are the fussy ones that prefer acidic soil and acidic rain water. If these are grafted on Dr. Huey, they can handle heat and alkalinity better. But as wimpy own-roots, they don't have the vigor to survive extreme heat and drought.

If you call the nursery and ask them which bands have the darkest green leaves, they will tell you ... those will most likely to bloom and grow roots in alkaline conditions.

Another good question to ask the nursery is which blooms last longest in the vase, or firmest petals ... those can stand up to heat.

I can tell that my King Arthur will be a challenge to fix ... it's the most yellowish or chlorotic among the 6 roses I got from sale at Roses Unlimited. Horse manure high in iron might help. I fixed Eglantyne (with Rugosa heritage) with $2 bag of sand, but I have a hard time with multiflora-parentage like Blue Mist that requires acidic rain water to bloom.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 18:29

I haven't had a huge amount of luck with Austins here, except for Evelyn, Evelyn, Evelyn. She is an amazing rose but gets very large here. I also have The Dark Lady which is like so far but only got her last spring. Amazing blooms. Young Lycidas is struggling in my garden in the heat. I have hope she will survive the summer.
A floribunda I really like is Sexy Rexy. Very healthy and blooms a lot. Nice rose.
Mostly I grow teas which I mentioned in a previous post. A couple I didn't mention:
- Tipsey Imperial Concubine: very healthy plant and beautiful blooms. Gets pretty tall though (mine is probably 5-6 ft.)
- Westside Road Cream tea: a found rose that is great here. It's still young but I am really liking it.
- Souvenir de Pierre Notting: started slowly but had a great bloom this past year; very healthy
- the usual teas: Maman Cochet, Monsieur Tillier, Rosette Delizy, Papa Gontier, etc. Love them all.
- Souvenir de la Malmaison
- Zepherin Douhin (sp) is great.

I forgot to mention China Doll. Does great here (at least for me) and blooms constantly.

jaspermplants,do you have sandy or clay soil in Phoenix? Do you irrigate with drip lines & timer? I had a Golden Celebration years ago that was planted next to but underneath a Mexican Fan Palm. The first year was uneventful but by the end of year two it was 6ft tall and had large, fragrant blooms. It was a beautiful rose bush. My backyard is full hybrid teas and floribunda roses, but I will place a Sally Holmes, Golden Celebration, and Mme. Isaac Perrier (free rose) in protected positions that can accommodate their mature sizes. My front yard receives filtered morning sun, a little full sun, and then is shaded from 1 or 2 p.m. or so, and my side yard has clay soil receiving sun from about 9 a.m. until 2 p.m. This is where I plan to experiment with the OGR's. I hope it works out. Strawberryhill, Kim, Ingrid and so many others have been extremely helpful. I have learned alot from them and research regarding my soil etc. I am going to have formal soil tests prior to planting anything in these areas.

Strawberryhill, my Bishop's Castle arrived today from Heirloom. I ordered it after seeing Ingrid's beautiful plant.; this was before I received information from you regarding the importance of the soil; or it actually registered. I have always been told to dig a hole and return it with a 50% mix of garden soil and compost. Now I have to research this rose again to determine what I will do with it once it outgrows the pot I will likely place it in a few days from now. Today, I gave it a little water and am just letting it breath. Tomorrow I will place it outside in its container, but in a 1 gallon pot, and sheltered from the extreme sun and heat. I had planned to place it in a 1 gallon pot and after it outgrows the 1 gallon pot, a 2 gallon pot, then when it outgrows that, plant it in the garden during the fall, but several weeks before the first predicted day of frost here. Any suggestions.

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 19:25

Hi Lynn: I'm pasting the tips that Ingrid in Thousand Oak, CA, sent to me regarding how her Yves Piaget is so loaded with blooms ... she posted the most beautiful Yves Piaget bloom ever, see link below.

Here's what she wrote: "We had heavy clay soil In Thousand Oaks, so I took out most of the soil and added a mix of potting soil, mulch, horse manure, and some gypsum. For fertilizers I used a combination of things like horse manure, Gro Power (organic), 16-16-16 time release, and occasionally some fish emulsion and seaweed extract. I understand that Yves Piaget is used by florists because of the beautiful blooms--and the nice strong fragrance doesn't hurt! I'm sure you'll enjoy it!"

Also Lynn, if you really love a rose, go for it, regardless of others' experiences. I thought Eglantyne was impossible for me, but I solved it ... I count 5 buds on it, pretty good for a tiny plant own-root ... same number of blooms as the rose park's huge plant (grafted on Dr. Huey).

Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of Yves Piaget from Ingrid (Thousand Oak)

Yves Piaget is a beauty and on my list for bare- root planting in late December, or early January.

I have decided to go for it, but plan to place the roses in the most hospitable environment I can in terms of sun and soil. I have faired well with where to plant roses in terms of the sun, currently and in the past, but I am just not that familiar with OGR's and their specific requirements; I rarely see them growing here. The information you have provided regarding soil, information on HMF, and research I have conducted specific to my area hopefully will enable me to grow happy plants and make my garden the best it can be:)

I re-read what you wrote ... an own-root Bishop's Castle from Heirloom Roses? I like your approach "I will place it outside in its container, but in a 1 gallon pot, and sheltered from the extreme sun and heat. I had planned to place it in a 1 gallon pot , then 2 gallon ..... when it outgrows that, plant it in the garden during the fall."

I would put it in the largest size pot possible 2 to 3 gallons, so you have one transfer to the ground in the fall. Every time I pull a rose out of a pot, I lose some roots. Good idea to grow own-root in a few hours of morning sun, until the root becomes big like Dr. Huey ... he's at least 2-gallon.

There are two incredibly beautiful roses, but challenging: Yves Piaget and Princess Alexandra of Kent. If I'm in your location of hot sun and alkaline soil, I'll take Yves Piaget over PAK. Both PAK and Young Lycidas are listed in Regan's Nursery as partial shade roses.

My zone 5a prevents me from getting Yves Piaget: Three people report it as weak own-root. One person reported it not doing well if buried too deep (grafted on Dr. Huey). So if I want Yves Piaget, I have to buy grafted, and plant at ground-level, which guarantee death to bud-union in my zone 5a winter. Yves Piaget is hardy to zone 7b.

If I buy Princess Alexandra of Kent, there are a few reports of it being weak-grower even as grafted. It has lighter-green leaves, means more challenge as own-root in alkaline soil. I have 2 Yves Piaget's children (bred with another rose), the scent is magnificent, one bloom can perfume the entire room ... I'm tempted by Yves, but I'm afraid it can't survive my winter. Yves' 2 children are right under my dryer's vent, blowing hot and humid air on them ... they grow very well.

Anyone have experience with both Yves Piaget or Princess Alexandra of Kent as own-roots? Thanks in advance.

Strawberryhill, I hope someone has experience with the two and can provide insight. Yves Piaget was on my list years ago, and I am going to order it early; hopefully I will get one. Because I am placing it in a location where it will receive about 7 hours of sun, from early morning until the early afternoon, I will buy grafted. We actually plant bare root roses about a couple of inches above the soil to add a lot of mulch to keep everything cool when it becomes hot. PAK is on my list for the roses; I will place it near my front porch. It will receive about 5 hours of sun from 9- 2. Our hottest time of day has been from 4-6 which I find interesting as it use to be 3-5 during July. I have read mixed reviews regarding PAK's heat tolerance, but figured if I grew it anywhere it would be in my front or front -side ( full sun) area because it will not get hit with highest temperature of the day.

Hi Lynn: Prickles (Bailey) in Southern CA reported that his Yves Piaget is the best performer, loaded with blooms in a pot that's not watered for 3 days. That's incredible!

I'm going to get Yves Piaget instead of Princess Alexandra of Kent. In near 90 degrees heat and alkaline soil, pH 7.7, I counted the buds/blooms yesterday: Over 40+ buds each on Liv Tyler and Sweet Promise. Frederic Mistral has 20+ buds, so does Firefighter (French Meilland) ... both had damage from deer and moving.

For Austins, Evelyn has 10+ buds, same with the rest. However, the Austin flush was magnificent in cold spring when we had flash flood, like 40+ buds on Radio Times.

In hot summer above 90 degrees, I don't get much cut-flowers from Austins ... but I get plenty from Romanticas and French Meilland roses. England is a cool, foggy, and rainy climate with a large portion of acidic soil. France has a good portion of alkaline clay, warmer summer with more sun. Below is a bouquet picked today, white is Bolero (20 buds, smells like heaven), orange is Sweet Promise, and pink is Liv Tyler. Bolero is a smaller bush than Marie Pavie, since I cut it frequently for the vase.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 14:01

I'm re-posting what Kim wrote about Marie Pavie:

"I love (and grow) Marie Pavie, but I would not put her next to a hot sidewalk. The petals would fry too quickly. She is quite shade tolerant and would definitely look better (flowers, anyway) with a bit of protection."

My Bolero bush is smaller than Marie Pavie in their 2nd year. Bolero is the best white for hot sun, it doesn't fry like Marie Pavie, this has shade for afternoon sun, but her blooms fry in the heat see below:

A smaller bush than both Bolero and Marie Pavie is Marie Daly, listed in HMF as 3' x 3', compared to taller Marie Pavie listed at 4' tall.

Jaspermplants' suggestion of China Doll, dark pink, is a great one. That's smaller than all 3 (Bolero, Marie pavie, and Marie Daly). Plus the dark pink doesn't fade much in hot sun. Only drawback is no scent.

Marie Daly, pink, fades in the sun to whitish, versus Marie Pavie, white, fades to brownish. Marie Daly has thicker petals, smaller bush, but attract thrips. See Marie Daly, picture taken today in summer heat, bought as a tiny band mid-April.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 13:00

For the planting hole and fertilizer that Ingrid from Thousand Oaks, CA suggested ... I'll going to change that due to my higher summer heat. Ingrid in Thousand Oaks is different from Ingrid in this forum. Thousand Oaks has milder summer than mine.

I would not put horse manure in the planting hole like in Thousand Oaks ... I tried that and spent 4 hours replacing the soil, with salt-burnt in hot sun from mixed-in manure. I would not use chemical fertilizer 16-16-16 like in Thousand Oak, that would burn the plant in the heat.

For hot climate, organics is best. Below is a picture of Frederic Mistral wilting in yesterday heat, thanks to soluble fertilizer NPK 10-52-10. Same wilting on Sweet Promise where I used acid granular NPK 10-5-4 to replace the leaves that the deer ate. But the roses with organic fertilizer (horse manure or cocoa mulch) have no wilting whatsoever. Below is Frederic Mistral wilting:

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 13:59

I was checking if the rest of Romantica gang likes alkaline clay, and found this post from Arizona. Most Arizona soil is alkaline, high in calcium, very much like my limestone clay in Chicagoland. See below link:

Posted by agility_mom z9 AZ (My Page)

I would have said that Yves Paiget was my favorite but now I have Rouge Royale too and it just bloomed so I have may have a tie. I also have Traviata, Francois Rabelais, Peter Mayle and Tolouse Letrec from last year and they are doing well. This season I added White Eden, Contesse de Provence, Frederick Mistral and Bolero so the jury is still out on those but so far I love the blooms.
You can't just have 1. Next season I am going to order the rest in the collection. "

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil pH and salinity by University of Arizona

You mentioned liking the look of Princess Alexandra which I have. She is a strong grower in the dry heat here and a bloom machine. The problem so far is she blooms right along with the heat, and the blooms shrivel almost immediately. I am hoping more maturity will help with this problem. Golden Celebration is quite good in dry heat here, but still has the crisping, shriveling problem some, as do all Austins. Strawberry mentioned Romanticas and Frederic Mistral is a winner in the heat here. The blooms stand up to heat better than Austins, though the situation will never be ideal when the temp is 100+. But by far the best bloomer in heat here, with blooms that last well, is the German rose Ascot. Of course, it is a modern rose, but has the old fashioned bloom form. Diane

Nanadoll, Frederic Mistral is beautiful. May I ask where you have it planted and how it performs there?

Strawberryhill, I had planned to order one bareroot Yves Piaget for my hot backyard. I am strongly considering placing one in my front yard near the porch instead of PAK.

I too have alkaline soil that is high in calcium. When I dig a hole, I usually mix 1/3 - 1/2 compost, cottonseed meal, superphosphate, and soil sulfur to the hole to lower the pH.

Hi Lynn: I have Frederic Mistral, but I don't like how it fades to light pink, pretty bland. Al in my Chicagoland grows both Frederic Mistral and Peter Mayle ... he prefers Peter Mayle so much that he bought a second one.

For a hot climate and alkaline soil, getting darker color like Kim (Roseseek) recommends is best. Peter Mayle will fade to dark pink, versus Frederic Mistral fade to whitish-pink. I haven't cut Frederic Mistral for the vase, since he needs cold weather and horse manure to be photogenic. In 100's degree hot sun, the color is washed-out, and the petals are floppy. I wish I had bought Peter Mayle instead.

What looks really good in 100's degree heat? Romantica Sweet Promise, almost thornless .... with horse manure, it deepens to sunset-glow gorgeous color. Picture below is taken at above 90's heat, without horse manure.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 22:32

Romantica Sweet Promise is pretty as a bush: shiny glossy leaves, versus dull foliage as in the wilted Frederic Mistral leaves I posted earlier. Below is Romantica Sweet Promise as a bush. It performs well in the heat if no chemicals is used, it's quite sensitive to salt in fertilizer. As own-roots, both Sweet Promise and Frederic Mistral are water-hogs in full-sun, clay soil is needed for moisture retention. I haven't read any bad thing about Peter Mayle, but I read a few complaints about Frederic Mistral.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 22:33

Here's Sweet Promise in yesterday's heat of near 90, with 40+ buds:

Here's Liv Tyler taken yesterday, early in the morning, she gets morning shade, but gives me twice more blooms than Frederic Mistral. She has over 40+ buds. Other people mentioned that Liv Tyler repeats fast.

Every bloom of Liv Tyler is photogenic, even in last year 100's degree drought ... but I can't get a perfect bloom of Fred unless it's cold, rainy, plus horse manure.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 10, 13 at 23:37

Here's how Liv Tyler bloom looks with horse manure, which deepens the color:

strawberryhill, your roses are beautiful.

My choices for that row, the light colors, were Souvenir de la Malmaison, and Frederic Mistral. I chose Souvenir la Malmaison because it was reported to be heat tolerant, will be in an area where it will receive filtered sun, and many gardeners in hot dry climates recommend it. I figured it would be worth an attempt. I have also decided to get Paul Neyron. It was on the recommended list of OGR's in Las Vegas and I really like the color. I have selected many meidum and deeper pink roses for the front yard that receives primarily morning sun and/or filtered morning
sun. SDLM is an exception and will be near the white roses. My backyard is filled with the vivid and deep colors; Don Juan, Joseph's Coat (which never appears orange but a soft yellow or creme and rose pink to raspberry), America, Rio Samba, Knock out- red, Double Knock out; it is where I will place Mme. Isaac Perierre, and Yves Piaget because those roses stand up to the heat. The front yard will be the my big experiment; OGR's and more whites, a little soft pink and medium to deep pink. I am planning, preparing, and crossing my fingers. We will have to compare notes next year and see how we successful we have been with our choices:)

Lynn

Lynn, I think Souvenir de la Malmaison and Paul Neyron will be great for you. SDLM is good in hot, dry climates and mine is great. One of my favorites.
I don't have Paul Neyron but I've heard many times it is a great rose in our climate. Unfortunately I don't have room for one, but maybe I can fit it in somewhere (along with many others I want but don't have room for).

Please post some pictures; I love to see what others are doing with roses in desert climates. I have plans for tearing out some grass in the front yard and planting some roses. Glad to hear you are experimenting in your front yard too!

Frederic Mistral is known as Mr. Thrips, that's one reason why it's hard to get a perfect bloom. In hot temp. above 90's, roses flatten out, and become semi-double, or single-petal. Last year at 100's degree heat, Crimson Glory went from many-petals to single-petal, so did Mirandy. But their colors are deep so they still good.

Frederic Mistral has less petals, so when it gets hot, it flop-out like an un-made bed. Add that to the washed-out light pink, plus thrips, its not attractive. There used to be a Pat Austin where my Fred is. Pat's blooms fried in the heat, but it was a pretty fried-orange. So I moved Fred to where Pat was. Instead of frying, Fred's bloom flatten out, revealing a black/brownish center, very ugly.

I can't get a decent bloom from Fred until late fall, when we have month-long rain and cold temp. which double the petal-counts of Fred. Robert Neil Rippetoe in his above 100's temp, 3.6" of annual rain also dislikes blooms that turn black/brown in the center.

Folks report Francis Meilland as much better than Frederic Mistral. I saw Francis Meilland so beautiful as a bush at Menards for $20, came back the next week, and it was gone. Francis Meilland has round-petals look, Frederic Mistral has this rough-pointy petal look at his best, or flatten-out with a blackish center in high heat.

Liv Tyler has more petals like an Austin, and deeper color, so at 100"s degree, it fades out to better than Fred at his prime. The trick for a hot climate is to find many petals, but firm, so it won't look flatten-out like a rag at hot temp. Bolero, Liv Tyler, Sweet Promise, and Firefighter fulfill the above, plus don't fry either.

Frederic Mistral has a wide base. I moved it last fall, the root spreads out horizontally, in addition to deep roots. So I had to dig a hole 2.5 feet wide, and 2 feet deep for my zone 5a. The vigorous Romanticas like Fred, Sweet Promise, Peter Mayle, and Liv Tyler are BETTER as own-roots due to both horizontal spread and deep vertical root.

Hoovb tried Liv-Tyler 3 times as grafted, didn't work. So did Andrea in Cambridge, England. Restraining spreading root to a narrow bud-union as grafted isn't a good idea. As own-roots, zero-diseases on Liv Tyler and Frederic Mistral. Sweet Promise has a tiny bit of blackspots, only at lowest few leaves in late fall ... poor drainage in that spot.

In my 1st picture posted here, the bush without flowers next to Marie Pavie is Frederic Mistral. That was early spring, its base has extended much wider.

Paul Neyron is best as grafted. Mine is own-root with endless problems. Blooms balled up & fried in hot sun, so I had to move to partial shade. At least I solved the black spot problem, he's 100% clean. Now it's chlorosis, leaves are pale despite horse manure (high in iron). All my roses are in their 2nd flush, except for Paul.

Someone once said that Hybrid Perpetual isn't perpetual in blooming, and Bourbons repeat better. So if I can get a second flush from Paul in the fall, I'm happy.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Jul 11, 13 at 12:17

jaspermplants, years ago, I often heard people oppose placing a lot of roses in the front yard, but, I do not have lawn at all (restricted in the front yard by ordinance) and when the roses are cut back for winter dormancy, the leaves of grasses, day lilies , evergreen trees, and shrubs create the look for my garden. Like so many on this forum, I love my roses and will place them anywhere I believe I can:)

I will post photos; guessing in the spring as I have 9 bare root plants to purchase then plant in early January.

Strawberryhill, Paul Neyron is not being cooperative in your garden:( Growing roses can be similar to parenting; no matter how much you create what you consider the best environment you can, biology kicks in, with things sometimes turning out surprisingly great, sometimes not, and sometimes a little maturation is necessary ( I am obviously in the realm of raising teenagers). I will plan, prepare, and do my best for the Paul Neyron, but if it doesn't perform, unlike my two teenagers, I will give it the shovel.

I second Jaspermplants' choices of Mons. Tillier and Mlle. Cecile Brunner. Mons. Tillier is utterly gorgeous in the late summer/early fall, when it gets a brick tone in amongst the deepish pink color - one of my great favorites. Mlle. Cecile Brunner tends to fade in color in the hot weather, but does very well in partial shade and blooms and blooms. In the Sacramento Historic Rose Garden we have both (although a branch fell on Mons. Tilier, and I don't know if it will ever be the big, magnificent plant that it was when I first saw it), and it gets hot here - triple digits a week or so ago. Actually, a lot of the roses just kind of shut down during those periods. We have two CB plants in quite a bit of shade, and they are thickly leaved and lovely all the time - we have another, a Climbing CB growing over an arch, which is in more direct sun and is utterly lovely in the spring.
I'll ask Anita, the garden's manager, and Barbara Oliva, the curator of the collection, if they have suggestions for your kind of heat - I'll let you know.

organic_tosca, Thank you :)

I will be researching Mons. Tiller as the way you described it has aroused my interest.

Lynn

I got interested in Mons. Tiller, found a great post by Hoovb ... gorgeous pics. of that, plus another tea. Too bad my zone 5a is too cold for both! See the pictures below of Mrs. B.R. Cant and Mons. Tiller:

Here is a link that might be useful: Hoovb's blog

There's a thread on Mons tiller fries in the sun, see below:

"Mine fried after an hour or two in the sun, more so than my other tea roses so it's no longer with me in my hot garden. Clementina Carbonieri did the same thing. A pity, since both are beautiful roses. Ingrid."

*****
From Straw: I'm adding own-root Yves Piaget on my rose-order for next year, along with Young Lycidas and Romantica "The McCartney" rose.

I researched again on Yves Piaget: the person who grows Yves both as own-root vs. grafted reported wimpiness for both. Someone from PNW (rainy & cool) climate also reported Yves being wimpy.

Robert Rippetoe in his Rancho Mirage climate of exreme heat, drought, and alkaline sandy soil .... grows Yves Piaget and uses it in his breeding program ... so it must be very good for him.

I figured out what makes Romanticas works: fluffy potting soil for the roots to get big, then transfer to fertile clay. I have Yves Piaget's children bred by Robert Neil, I put gypsum in the pots, and they went beserk with growth. Ingrid in this forum once grew Yves, but it didn't do well in the heat ... she has loose de-composed granite soil high in potassium. That's different from Ingrid in Thousand Oaks, who has clay.

According to Wikipedia, high potassium or high nitrogen drives down calcium. The Romanticas have a higher demand for calcium than other roses, they are very sensitive to salt, so saline soil is not suitable. Calcium in gypsum is used to de-salt saline soil.

That explains why Mons.Tillier works for Jaspermplants in Arizona, but didn't work for Ingrid with high-potassium soil. Arizona is alkaline clay high in calcium like my Chicagoland clay ... I'm next to a limestone quarry.

Calcium is known to firm up tissue of plants, and helps with drought-tolerance, which explains for the success of Romanticas in my limestone clay. Here's an excerpt on calcium from the site http://www.oxyfertil.com/royaume-uni/role-ca-mg-plante.html

· increases the plant tissues' resistance and allows for
more erect stems
· contributes to normal root system development
· increases resistance to outside attack

Here is a link that might be useful: Does your Mons. Tillier fry in the sun?

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 12, 13 at 10:58

Interesting,

My mostly sandy, but clay soil on the side of my home is high in gypsum and is alkaline. Wondering now how Romanticas will fair?

Lynn

I love my Yves!

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Not a big plant, but only second season in the ground and in a hot spot. These photos are after our last heat wave.

Hi Kippy: I love your photos .. you take really good care of your garden. Your Yves's blooms are HUGE ... very nice. I think Kippy has clay soil, fertilized with horse manure ... but I ask Kippy just to make sure. Thanks in advance.

Looks like alkaline clay or good potting soil are what's best for Yves. My sister lives east of San Francisco, and her soil is alkaline clay. Here's a report on Yves from a person in SF bay area, Marin, with cool, foggy, and afternoon sun only: "It's a good, disease-resistant rose in my cool, minimal-sun garden. And it's a good cutting rose."

Another one in CA wrote in EveryRose.com: " I have been very happy with Yves (almost more than the Austins) in our wet foggy springs."

Another from Oklahoma with hot and humid summer reported Yves being very good, but bigger in size.

Another from Torrance, CA with sunny, dry, near the coast raved about its scent and the size of the bloom.

Another from NJ reported Yves being very good in the pot.

I think the soil matters more than the climate for Yves.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jul 12, 13 at 12:27

This is a west facing spot on top of a short retaining wall with a gravel walk and white house wall to reflect heat back. The soil is a mix of builders sand some one dumped probably for drainage decades ago and adobe clay that is heavy and sticks like mad-fyi clay+fine sand+straw=bricks. This bed is a bit over 2 years old and used to be an ignored corner of the yard over grown with bougusvilla-invasive plum tree roots-rats etc and was like trying to dig in a brick.

I have been very busy with other projects in the garden so the roses have to kind of help themselves. Yves got some horse manure over the winter, last fall some alfalfa pellets and then an application of very weak fish fertilizer in late spring. Due to the heat, I did not dead head but plan on doing that shortly.

I think there were 66 buds on Yves at one time. And I am totally looking forward to winter and trying to start some cuttings.

Thank you, Kippy, for the info. Is your Yves grafted or own-root? Someone in my Chicagoland reported Yves as being a weak-grower own-root, so I haven't decided what version of Yves to get.

I am sure it is grafted on Huey (and thus also virused) I bought it as a bareroot.

Kippy: Your Yves Piaget is gorgeous! May is ask, what is the pink rose growing in the distance?

Lynn

From an old thread I found someone in CA reported that BOTH her Yves Piaget grafted, and Yves as own-root do remarkably well. It must be the soil, rather than the rootstock or climate.

I'll go ahead and get it as own-root ... own-root will be slower to establish, but I'm really lazy in pruning, so that's the big advantage of own-root, they stay small and compact.

Lynn

The Pink with the cane/candelabra by the birthday is DA Bishops Castle.

The hard to see pink by the windmill is Belinda's Dream.

Bishops Castle did not get the memo that it is only supposed to be 3.5 x 2.5' Hope Jubilee Celebration realizes it was supposed to be 4x4'