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The Midcentury Moderns

Posted by mauvegirl8 Texas (My Page) on
Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 1:25

I have taken an interest in roses from the 40's and 50's.

During this period, roses for the most part still had fragrance, vigor, & disease resistance. Color palettes were less muted. Salmon, coral, cerise and flamingo pink enter my mind.

On the opposite spectrum, "The Pinocchios" produced a sedate mish mash of colors.
A mish mash, I adore.

I am expecting a delivery of Gene Boerner's 'Chic',
a 1953 floribunda - seedling of 'Pinocchio' and 'Fashion'


Experiences welcomed!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

I'd love to grow Pinocchio proper, but it just isn't available as far as I can find. Spartan was pretty the only time I saw it in person. It was available at a Home Depot and despite having never seen it in person before, I knew it was Spartan before looking at the tag. The coral color and bloom shape are very distinct. It had a good fragrance that day as well. Brownie is lovely, but also difficult to find. Pink Chiffon, Circus, and Garden Party are other favorites of mine from that era.

A few that stem from this era in their lineage (mostly through Pinocchio) that I enjoy are Pride of Oakland, Drummer Boy, and Pam's Choice (through Lavender Pinocchio).

My mom grows Circus and it is a very dependable bloomer, healthy here in Coastal So Cal, and quite variable. Garden Party is gorgeous, but not the most generous bloomer. Lavender Pinocchio will only succeed here as a budded plant I think. Own root, it has been fairly anemic for my mom. A few nice blooms that probably robbed the plant of its vigor. It has grown imperceptibly since arrival. I'm going through practicing budding Iceberg on Dr. Huey to hopefully be able to bud Lavender Pinocchio and some of the other weaker plants in the long run.

Pictured is Brownie at the Huntington from this Spring.

Jay


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Little fragrance, poor disease resistance-at least here in the humid South-but absolutely beautiful,glowing, color-changing blooms: "Joseph's Coat" c.1964 (?)
The color's like an old Technicolor film, almost too good to be true.'
Cool Bible inspired name, too.


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

We inherited bushes of Chrysler Imperial (awful disease magnet - shovel pruned it), Duet (lovely lovely blooms, no scent, gets rust here - kept it), and Sutter's Gold (lovely blooms that blow in 24 hours, very very highly scented - unusual for a yellow rose, and also gets lots of rust - kept it).

So, my experience has not been that they are all scented and disease resistant at all, at least here in No California. The bushes are scraggly in shape and not pleasing as bushes at all. Because I don't spray my other roses, but also do not want rust blowing all over, I planted these 3 in very very large pots and clustered them together so that I could spray just them. I mostly kept them because they were family heirlooms planted by my DH's grandfather, and had survived with practically no care for 30 years before we moved in. I do enjoy their Spring flush, and the lovely scent of Sutter's Gold.

Jackie


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

I used to grow a pot each of Sutter's Gold (1950), Whisky Mac (1968), and Lemon Spice(1966) on my back patio. All three were incredibly fragrant. I don't remember having the problem with rust that Jackie describes. However although we are only an hour's drive apart, we have very different climates. I do remember that all three were very scraggly in the form of the plant and also that the flowers tended to be fleeting.

Last year I decided to reduce the number of pots because of the drought. When I went to move them to the ground I found crown gall in several of my potted roses, and I discarded all the ones that were afflicted with it or that had other problems. Of all my roses in pots, only Gloire de Hollande (1918) made it into the ground. (Of course this rose is out of your target era.)

The truth is I am not a fan of the Mid-Century Modern aesthetic in either architecture or design. I did not realize until now that this extends to horticulture, too!

Rosefolly


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 14:48

I love the mid century moderns too. Unfortunately I lost most of them last winter. I do, however, have two of the original Pinocchios. One is a 60 year old grafted one my mom planted when she moved into this house and the other is a 3 year old rooted cutting I took from it. Both of them wintered just fine! If anyone is interested in cuttings please let me know. I'm happy to share it because I think it is a very special rose and should be saved and protected.


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

No rose is universal and I do admit to being a "Mid Century Modernist". I've grown many in that range, as well as pre-post WW1, between the wars, post WW11 and mid century and later. There are some very good roses (depending upon climate and culture suitability) in all classes and periods. Quite a few are OK own root, many are not. Brownie can grow own root, but it's MUCH better budded. I've had it on the British stock (the imported plants from LeGrice); own root and on Huey. Huey was the best here. I don't currently grow any mid century types, mostly because none of them are varieties I wish to use for breeding. VERY few were real "break throughs" in health and vigor, most of them representing more "stirring the pot, which is not what I am after. Kim


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

mauvegirl, are you a fan of 'Florence Delattre'? She's a grandchild of 'Lavender Pinocchio' with a similarly muted-but-variable coloring, but a more old-fashioned bloom shape.

I have no idea if I could grow her here, but I am smitten with her HMF profile, and photos I've seen elsewhere. Roses Unlimited has her listed in their alphabetical list, but HMF doesn't list them- or any American nurseries- as a seller for 'FD'.

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Florence Delattre' on HMF


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Arena Roses brought Florence into the US. It didn't last here very long. I never brought one home, though the images have always tempted me. I've seen it in several gardens, only one of which sufficiently intrigued me to look twice, though. Kim


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 17:07

The only ones I have are among my pot-pet collection of own-root fragrant dark-red and crimson HTs, so I can't say much about the range of color or fragrance. What I do see as interesting, however, is the progression of the breeder's art in this specific genre of roses, from oldest to newest. Listed in order from oldest to youngest, they are:

'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' 1908
'Night' aka 'Lady Sackville' 1921
'Nigrette' 1934
'Crimson Glory' 1935
'Heart's Desire' 1942
'Mirandy' 1944
'Nocturne' 1947
'Rose of Freedom' 1948
'Chrysler Imperial' 1952
'Big Ben' 1964
'Mister Lincoln' 1964
'Oklahoma' 1964
'Red Masterpiece' 1974
'Velvet Fragrance' 1988

It's additionally interesting in that my little group is rather related -- look up their family trees on HelpMeFind and you'll see my group is rather like an inbred royal family. I'd say this is a prime example of Kim's "stirring the pot" analogy.

As time went on, plants became bigger and sturdier, with more of a tendency toward long, straight canes rather than branching, twiggy growth. I think some of this was influenced by descendants of 'New Dawn' being used in HT breeding to add vigor. Flower form, too, evolved from less-double and delicate to high-centered and substantial (like tulips). Nodding blooms gave way to upward-facing blooms.

The ones I have from the 1940s and 1950s are the middle-ground -- canes are stiffer and straighter, flowers start looking high-centered when in bud but finish with a bit more delicacy, and as they open they nod like their Tea ancestors (though more outward than down). They definitely look more substantial than earlier HTs, but will probably never reach the heights of more modern HTs if left unpruned and grown own-root. In smaller gardens, I see that as an asset.

:-)

~Christopher


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Technicolor, now that best describes an era.

Florence Delattre - Coincidentally, I just found out about her!
A click here, a link there, & voila you end up on Google Images pouring through anything and everything Florence Delattre. Named after a heroine of Dumas.

I requested this rose be added to my spring order. I received a reply that she is difficult to propagate. Limited. Very limited.


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Martini or Cosmo anyone?


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

rectangles


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Kim, those images are calling me also. I suppose she could just be particularly photogenic, if you weren't so interested in her 'in person'. She definitely does photograph well, though...

Virginia


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

That she is, Virginia! The images always impressed me as what I would expect to get were Cardinal Hume crossed with Sterling Silver. That isn't what created her, but she's still a photogenic beauty. In our heat, the color isn't as seductive as the photos led me to believe. The whole plant created a "hole" in the scene, like an absence of light. Viewed by itself, it was intriguing. As a part of a scene, it almost felt as though the color had been washed from that spot. I imagine a bouquet of those flowers would be quite soothing, calming and cooling, but in a garden setting, it was too "cold mashed potatoes needing lots of salt". Kim


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

mauvegirl, I would like a Cosmo, please. Be careful, or I'll start posting photos of my Danish modern furniture that I got since nobody else in the family liked it...!

So, she's hard-to-propagate and limited, huh? Did you order with RU or does someone else have her? I am not usually much tempted by modern-day roses, but she's an exception. Probably, I should wait to see how she gets along in your neck-of-the-woods, since your conditions are somewhat similar to mine.

Good luck,
Virginia


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Cold mashed potatoes needing salt? That doesn't sound so appealing.

It does make sense, though, that a muted color like that would need careful framing to make any sort of impact at all, and not just disappear. I hadn't really considered that.

Virginia


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Rectangles, perhaps, but how could you not be inspired by such as this? Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Stahl House


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

RU. It is listed as a U.S. source on HMF. I inquired whether it is available for September orders (no).

People pay a lot of money for Danish modern on Craigslist. Is it comfortable?

Mid century modern was before my time. One story houses were larger with spacious rooms, sunken living rooms. Pools were de rigeur.

Gardens had clean lines, a bit stark, gravel, lawns were tidy and manicured.

It seems life was less stressful and less distractions. Didn't everyone sit down for dinner?


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Glass-lust roseseek. Inspiration 24/7. Panoramic views.

Popular colors

This post was edited by mauvegirl8 on Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 19:50


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

1960, William Holden and Nancy Kwan
One of the most beautiful movies ever made


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Seil, I will take you up on your offer of a cutting of original Pinocchio.
Aahh, the allure of roses no longer in commerce.
Where do I sign up?

Jay, I enjoy reading your posts, re: 'Brownie '


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

  • Posted by catspa NoCA Z9 Sunset 14 (My Page) on
    Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 20:14

My mother still has a fair number of roses from that era: Circus, Sarabande, Tropicana, Chicago Peace, Duet, and Sterling Silver come immediately to mind. They grow well for her, but she lives in probably one of the best climates for growing roses ever: Santa Rosa, CA (which by the way, has had an annual rose parade in May for 120 years now). "Better living through chemistry" was a ubiquitous ad of the time and chemicals were what it took to grow a lot of these roses in most places, I fear.

From that time, I have Fred Howard and Lemon Spice, both of which do well for me (thank goodness blackspot not a problem here) and I like them a lot; own-root, at least, not soooo gangly . I also have Mirandy (rust queen that she is), which has a beautiful flower that is both weak-necked and short-lived and Geranium Red, which has been a slow starter own-root, but it is picking up steam lately and I love its blooms and scent (fast re-bloom).

As for the era itself, having experienced at least some of it personally, I think it's just as well that time has passed. On the style front, aqua and pink bathrooms and kitchens are what I remember most.


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Oh, definitely! It's an era best having already been lived through, no matter how little of it we "enjoyed". But, who could ever forget "Jane Russell" bumper guards; tail fins and acres of chrome? American excess at its very best! Kim


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As part of my last order from Vintage I got Oklahoma, Angel face and Arpeggio (floribunda, Von Abrams, 1961). I got the first two because they were listed VID and thought it would be interesting to see how they do. (When we moved five years ago I inherited an existing Angel Face that had the mosaic pattern all over, rust, black spot and pm. The flowers were so pretty with such a lovely scent but the bush was just depressing so I SP'd it.) Well, they are growing barely.

Arpeggio, on the other hand, is the the little shrub that could. I forgot about it and it didn't get watered for a couple of weeks this summer. I finally noticed its little twiggy, leafless self and drenched it. Man, what a comeback. Lots of spotless foliage, new cane and three buds. If it keeps this behavior up it will definitely become a favorite. The flowers are lovely, also. Simple with vibrant pink tempered by a layer of cinnamon. Can't remember any scent. I got this one after reading an impassioned post by Odinthor re: mid century floribundas. I'm a sucker for a good sales pitch. Plus, it seemed that vintage was the only us supplier for it. Anyway, I'm being very good to it now. And, practicing patience with Okla. and AF.

Anne


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mauvegirl, I was confused by your saying that RU was listed as a US supplier, but I looked again and finally noticed the 'View All Nurseries Selling This Rose' button at the bottom of the page with only one German nursery listed.

My folks were married in the early '60's, and a relative had a furniture store selling Danish Modern, etc. It wasn't what my mom liked, but at wholesale prices, it's what she could afford.

One of the chairs I got is possibly the most comfortable chair ever. At least according to my dad, who misses it and I can't disagree (insert 'comfy chair' Monty Python joke here). They threw the matching ottoman out, though...

I love that photo of Stahl House. What an incredible view... So it wasn't in 'North By Northwest', but it sure could've been...

Virginia


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Gordon Von Abrams made some very good roses. They suffered from not having the wide spread distribution they needed to survive. I loved his Bambi, Golden Slippers, Memoriam, Pink Favorite and Trade Winds. Kim


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Not all roses bred in the 40s and 50s were 'classic' HTs and floribundas. Reimer Kordes for example, bred some very fine shrubs and climbers.
Nik


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I haven't uploaded these to any image hosting site yet so I can only go one by one, but here's Drummer Boy:


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Here's a shot of my mom's Circus from this Spring (before I moved the grape elsewhere):


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  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Thu, Jul 24, 14 at 23:57

Mauavegirl, PM me with your address and we'll work it out.

I should warn you that Pinocchio IS susceptible to black spot for me but it's just the sweetest little rose you ever saw!

Pinocchio g photo pin2014_07020003_zpsfd2c40cc.jpg


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Seil, could I be so bold as to put in a request for a cutting of Pinocchio at some point in the future? I don't know whether current agricultural restrictions in CA would allow me to reciprocate with cuttings of any roses, but I would be very appreciative. I just sent some interesting Poppy seeds to Cynthia (Nipstress), so I could try to get something your way in return besides shipping costs.

Jay


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RE: The Midcentury Moderns

Many of these roses are familiar to me from the J&P catalogues my dad used to get. Chrysler Imperial, Tropicana, Nocturne ... I loved them all.
As one who came of age in the 60s, however, I don't recall the "Mad Men" era with anything like affection. Conformist, buttoned-up, alcoholic and reeking of tobacco, with lame music and dull jokes -- I was glad to see it all go. Not a great time to be a teen, unless of course one could go to one's own room, plug the tiny one-piece headset into the brand-new clock radio (it actually received FM!) and rock out to the Stones. Oh yes, and drag the one telephone in the house into the room and engage in endless live, voice conversations with one's friends..
Nostalgia for the roses, yes, but not for the social order. And please, don't bring back black-and-white TV! ;)
Sylvia


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I'll grab this opportunity and ask you if this rose might be Rose Gaujard (Gaujard 1957)? I got it in a batch of the lilac HT Blue Parfum in 1996. The BPs are long gone but I kept this pink and silver rose. The flower is huge and stands out among my old roses. Sometimes it looks like a young Savoy cabbage.


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  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Fri, Jul 25, 14 at 19:12

Jay, the problem isn't you sending me things FROM California to Michigan but I don't think I can send plant material INTO California. I know California has a lot of restrictions and for good reasons! Does any one know how I'd go about that?


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mariannese, I think it does look like 'Rose Gaujard', but it also looks a bit like 'Alleluia' to me. HMF link below... What do you think?

Also- is it fragrant? Does it have thorns?

Here is a link that might be useful: HMF link for 'Alleluia'


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My rose has straight thorns but not very many. I don't know about scent because I haven't tried to smell it. It flowers seldom and the flower lasts only a short time. HT's are not well suited to my Swedish climate but it has thrived in the heat wave we're having now. (We calI temps in the low 90'ies a heat wave, nothing to you I suppose!) I thought of Rose Gaujard because it used to be sold in this country until recently but I've never heard of Alleluia that indeed looks very similar. RG doesn't photograph well but here's an older photo.


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Here is my little toughy, Arpeggio.


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SFV4Life 10A,
I hear you partly about the 1960's, but I think they were an improvement on the following decades.At least the early '60s that is.I'd prefer tobacco & lame music to the drugs & chaos of the '70s. My grandma used to get the rose catalogues, too.That's how I first became interested in roses.My first rose was Queen Elizabeth.


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