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vettin

Soil testing and amending

vettin
13 years ago

I am impressed with the amount of flowers in some photos - e.g. berndoodle top ten - in the gallery, and want to learn more about soil testing and amendments.

Is it possible to do a soil test yourself - how?

Also - once you have a soil test, is there a forumla of what amendments you should have and in what quantities? Do you just amend the planting hole?

Thank you!

Comments (18)

  • michaelg
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most states provide cheap soil testing through the county agent's office (usually called Coorperative Extension Service). The tests that you do yourself are probably more expensive and are certainly less informative. (However, it is feasible to monitor the pH yourself using litmus paper or the Rapi-Test meter.)

    What nutrients need to be added should be determined by the soil test. You can bring it here for advice.

    Other amendments can be based on soil texture. For example, if you have sandy soil, add 2-3" of decayed organic matter and 1-1/2" of clay (plain cat litter).

    It is better to amend the whole planting area uniformly to a depth of 10-12" rather than amending deep holes as was formerly recommended.

  • berndoodle
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Soil chemistry is just that: chemistry. Most amendments to the soil affect every other soil component. That's why soils chemistry isn't a simple cook book, with a table to values followed by a corresponding table of amendments. It takes a chemist to inform you of the interaction of the amendments with the soil and among themselves. The recommendations address type of planting expected, soil texture, water quality, soil pH, soil conductivity, and the relative levels of major and minor nutrients. The reports I receive provide absolute values for the soil components tested, a bar chart that graphically rates the important nutrients, from badly deficient to excessively high, and a narrative explanation of the results combined with recommendations for very specific amendments for specific uses. Recs for ornamentals are different from turf. The recs are stated in pounds per 1000 sq. ft. It's simple math to convert that to ounces per 9 sq. ft. for a standard rose hole. The links below show the two parts of a soils report done recently. Soils testing, and especially the recommendations, have been critical in my gardens.

    Recommendations for an existing garden are different from recommendations for new plantings in a new garden. Bear in mind this report is for new plantings from scratch, not an existing garden.

    {{gwi:289324}}
    {{gwi:289326}} Your browser can enlarge these images.

    There is no magic here, but this report provides helpful information over and above the information about amendments.

    1) This is a heavy clay loam that hold nutrients but also holds water in winter. Soil texture and drainage are the key problems. Many plants drown in these soils during our winter rains. I will make sure the planting beds are graded to provide year round drainage. Once amended, the soil will be nutrient-rich and it will hold water. Roses will love it.

    2) As is common in this part of California, high magnesium is a continuing problem. I never amend with anything that adds magnesium and I add calcium any way I can. Gypsum is the easiest and cheapest. I gag when I see garden centers selling epsom salts and high magnesium fertilizers.

    3) Minor nutrients are unnecessary, as all are perfectly adequate, sulfur being added thru a nitrogen source. I therefore never need nor should use fertilizers with minors added.

    4) Soil pH is neutral. Nitrogen and organic matter will slightly reduce the pH. No lime is necessary. The well water is quite acid, i.e. pH = 7. It won't be a factor.

    5) As usual, NPK major nutrients are low. Amendments will permanently resolve the P and K components of the soil. In the future I will probably need to add only gypsum every few years and nitrogen annually for flowering plants.

    6) The recs don't mention mulching, but we always mulch 4 inches deep. It supplies organic matter to the top layer of the soil and, eventually, will supply some nitrogen as well. Until then, I'll scatter a smidge of nitrogen fert with the mulch for the first couple of years.

    By the way, this soils scientist has done four other soils reports for me over the past 7 years. The results of his recommendations have been superior in every way to experimental plantings I made in unamended soil. Both trees and shrubs (including roses) are happier, healthier, larger and more floriferous in amended soils. It's also interesting that most of the soils chemistry in this garden is radically different from my own located only 5 miles away.

  • jim_w_ny
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A very thorough soil analysis you had. Mine from Cornell was not even close.

    I definitely have problem soil for my roses. I have been trying to figure it out for years. Partly it is because of soil depth as the area is underlain with shale. One of my beds has on one edge outcropping shale. Very picturesque but not so great for plants. However a large patch of Rugosa Alba lives there and thrives. Whenever I lament about a puny rose I look at RA. Why are roses so finicky?

    Part of the reason I have ended up with many Kordes roses as I find them on average tougher and more adaptable to "poor" soil.

    Interesting about Gypsum. Maybe I should try it as my soil tends to be toward clay.

    I remember once you commented about a soil analysis I posted here, that was years ago, and you commented that Iron was a little low. I did try adding Iron and it seemed to help but given the vagaries of all the variables involving roses it is hard to be very sure of that.

  • hartwood
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    vettin, we have Virginia Tech for our soil testing. Get a little soil test box from the Extension office (I had some here to give out, but I don't remember where they are.), follow the instructions, and mail it in. In a short while (shorter while in the fall, which is when it should ideally be done here), you'll receive a report with specific recommendations for your situation and crop. As michael said, it's way cheaper and WAY more accurate than anything do-it-yourself.

    Once your soil plan is in place, it's good to test every two or three years thereafter.

    BTW, our big problem here is pH. With low pH, like we can have around here, many nutrients are present in the soil, but can be held in a form that make them unavailable to the plants. In a situation like that, you can feed the roses all day, but they can't take it up. It's weird, I know, but that's just how chemistry works.

    Connie

  • lagomorphmom
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Berndoodle, where did you send your test?

  • Embothrium
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For modern information...

    Here is a link that might be useful: Horticultural Myths

  • berndoodle
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My testing is done by Environmental Technical Services in Petaluma. I drop off samples in a paper bag because the lab is close. I think you might be better off contacting the local Master Gardener program and getting a local recommendation for a lab that does landscape soils testing in your area. Soils are local.

    There are labs that do organic testing, including one in Camarillo that gives organic fertilizer recommendations.
    http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/soil-lab.html

  • berndoodle
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For actual results of soil amendment....
    actual results

    Here is a link that might be useful: More roses in my garden

  • elemire
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you have clay, usually it is a very bad idea to amend only a planting hole. The problem with clay is that this way all the water tends to run to the looser amended soil and you end up basically planting your plant in a bucket of water after each rain.

  • berndoodle
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What you say about clay is true in an area that doesn't drain. Many factors go into making a garden. Just because I have a soils report, please don't assume I'm going to ignore grading and drainage, any more than I'm going to ignore mulching, irrigation and appropriate plant selection.

  • strawchicago z5
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I revive this old thread on soil testing, since I have just received my soil report from EarthCo, as recommended by Karl from zone 5a. A $20 test gives you accurate results for pH, organic matter, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, and magnesium. It's a good deal, considering that you get MANY samples from your garden, and send that 1 cup of cumulative soil to www.drgoodearth.com

    EarthCo also gives you a thick booklet that covers the basics of soil science. I was lazy, so I got only the surface soil, rather than the bottom yellow clay (which I already tested using Lowe's soil kit). My surface soil (with dead leaves & grass, horse manure, etc.) are:
    7.7 for pH (as expected with alkaline clay and horse manure), high in organic matter, and SUPER-HIGH in magnesium! I would like to thank Michaelg, Mike Rivers, Karl, and Jim for encouraging me to DO A SOIL TEST FIRST BEFORE WASTING TIME WITH EPSOM SALT.

    My calcium and phosphorus are adequate, but my potassium is a little bit short. We can always use more banana peels for roses in my zone 5a, 1 hour west of Chicago.

    Berndoodle is right on the info. about heavy clay and high magnesium in California (my 3 sisters live there). Bern's info. on high pH can be amended through addition of nitrogen/organic matter is correct, since cow manure's pH is 4 to 5, peat moss is 4, and both alfalfa meal and pine bark are acidic. The exception is horse manure, reported around 8 to 10 pH, since some stables add lime to deodorize their stalls.

    I spent 1 hour researching to see if gypsum is necessary for clay. The answer is NO, do not waste your money. The best amendment for clay from my experience is peat moss to lower pH, and alfalfa meal.

    Here's my experiment on William Shakespeare rose, planted as a band this July: Knowing his reputation for being wimpy, I put him in Miracle-Gro potting soil. The pot wasn't draining well, so he was turning yellowish. He whimpered in the hot sun, so I put him in partial shade, he improved and started blooming. I planted him in the ground September 1. I was really annoyed by his continued yellowish leaves, even with improved drainage.

    So I dug him up, and amended the soil with 2 gallons of peat moss mixed with 1 gallon of alfalfa meal. It was excessive, but worked wonder. Mr. Shakespeare turned dark green, and really bushy and vigorous. The peat moss brought down the pH, fixed my alkaline soil problem, and the alfalfa meal gave the nitrogen needed and stimulated abundant new growth.

    With Eglantyne I followed Roses Unlimited directions of 2 cups of alfalfa meal & 3 cups peat moss in the planting hole, OK, but leaves are NOT as green as Mr. Shakespeare.

    Michaelg: Where do you get litmus paper or Rapi-test for pH? The soil test from Lowe's is not accurate with pH, and I need to test horse manure repeatedly for high pH whenever I get from the stable. Many thanks.

  • strawchicago z5
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I found the link "Horticultural myths" recommended by bboy from WA to be excellent. The info. I learned from that link are: "High levels of phosphorus, from bone meal or other sources, will inhibit growth of mycorrhizal Fungi." I also burnt many geraniums, and killed a white pine by throwing bone meal around them. I always wonder why Heirloom roses recommends bone meal in the planting hole.

    More info. from that link: "There is no evidence whatsoever that addition of either potassium or magnesium will increase the hardiness of non-native, marginally hardy landscape species."

    Here is a link that might be useful: Horticultural Myths

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rapitest pH meters are widely sold at garden stores and counters for around $20. They work fine. You can Google litmus paper or strips and buy online. Choose a product with a pH range appropriate for soils. You are less likely to get a false reading with litmus paper. I double-test when using the meter unless I got the expected reading.

    Could be wrong, but I don't think the pH effect of peat is permanent. The pH of my soil began rising about 5 years after adding a lot of peat. Sulfur is a relatively permanent adjustment.

    Gypsum is good for alkaline clay soils that contain high sodium. These tend to occur in dryer western areas. The calcium in gypsum displaces harmful sodium while improving soil texture and drainage. The other use of it is to add calcium to balance excess magnesium or potassium, which I think is what Berndoodle is up to. Gypsum is pH neutral. You don't want to add calcium in the form of lime if pH is already high. Gypsum would convey no benefit in more normally balanced alkaline clay soils.

  • strawchicago z5
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Michaelg: I remember reading about peat moss is good for a few years, and sulfur takes longer to work, but lasts longer. How do you work your sulfur in, and what type? I'm little hesitant from my last fiasco with sulfur.

    What I like about EarthCo professional soil testing is their specific recommendation to fix your soil. At pH of 7.7, they advised me to apply 1.8 lbs. of sulfur per 100 sq. ft. I spent time checking on "gypsum" when I read Roses Unlimited instructions. That stuff is expensive, my hubby bought me a TINY bag for over $5, compared with a much bigger bag of peat moss. I'm glad to learn from you that gypsum is ONLY needed for clay soil high in sodium.

    The pictures of Berndoodle's garden are truly impressive, considering Bern's info: "Nitrogen and organic matter will slightly reduce the pH ... only need to add nitrogen annually." I will buy litmus paper to test my well water. If some one's water is alkaline, it would reverse the effect of peat moss.

    The soil test kit from Lowe's for $12 was pretty good. It's a Mosser Lee kit with 10 tests EACH for pH, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium. You can use it for 10 different locations in your garden. I dug down deep to test my yellow clay: it's alkaline, low in nitrogen, super high in potassium and high in phosphorus. I tested the pH of horse manure: alkaline. If stables would stop using lime to deodorize their stalls, horse manure would be perfect for roses like in the old days.

    For non-stop blooming flowers like annuals, chemical fertilizers is a plus. I did experiments on two pots: one with clay soil, the other with Miracle Gro potting soil with fertilizer. The Miracle Gro is twice bigger and three times more flowers.

    For roses, I don't know, and am seeking info. from growers with hundreds of blooms on their roses. It's good to know that Hoovb from CA uses organic compost/manure, so does Krista from NY. Krista's Eglantyne bush had over 100 blossoms, compared with the rose park nearby about 10 per bush. They fertilize with chemicals and their roses get abundant water, and the best soil.

    At the rose park, the floribundas really benefit from the chemicals, but not so with Knock-outs and Austins. Maybe we can't rush Austins and OGR the same way that we rush non-stop blooming flowers like annuals and floribundas?

    I like my Knock-outs better without chemical fertilizer for the last few years. Even with a slight cerospora from weeks of rain, my 6 Knock-outs are fresh and loaded, compared with the burnt-out look from the years with chemicals. What I like the most about NOT using chemicals is that I don't have to water them, and much less JB and insects.


  • zack_lau z6 CT ARS Consulting Rosarian
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I found it interested that just one rose in our side yard (out of a few dozen) showed a serious nitrogen deficiency caused by the PH being too low--liquid fertilizer didn't help, but adding some lime sure helped!

  • michaelg
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SH:
    Sulfur is graded by the size of particles:
    coarse--garden sulfur or flowers of sulfur.
    fine--wettable or dusting sulfur.
    very fine--micronized sulfur.

    The finer it is, the faster bacteria can work on it. But eventually equal weights produce equal effects. I have micronized sulfur that I used to spray as a fungicide. I just scumble it into the loose soil under the mulch, or dig it in 6" when replanting.

  • strawchicago z5
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find what Zack mentioned interesting and check it out: From the government website of plant nutrients, it mentioned: Macronutrients (NPK, calcium & magnesium, and sulfur) tend to be less available in soils with low pH.
    Micronutrients boron (B), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), chloride (Cl), manganese (Mn), molybdenum (Mo) and zinc (Zn) tend to be less available in soils with high pH.

    That explains the release of Nitrogen when Zack fixed his acid soil with lime. My soil is alkaline, leaves are really yellow. It's nice to know that both types of soil can be amended with organic matter. The same website stated: Sulfur is usually found in sufficient amounts from the slow decomposition of soil organic matter, an important reason for not throwing out grass clippings and leaves. Recycling organic matter such as grass clippings and tree leaves is an excellent way of providing micronutrients (as well as macronutrients) to growing plants.

    I'll go ahead and start on the raised beds, so I can dump tree leaves into the beds in advance. The clay soil here is hard like a rock when it's dry, and organic matter helps.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Plant Nutrients

  • Embothrium
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Look further at the Horticultural Myths site and you will see you do not want to dig in amendments for long-term plantings (including roses). In short: do test, don't amend.

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