Mine does this when the hot weather really hits hard. I suspect this is just this cultivar's response to heat stress. However, the first pictures make me wonder about virus.

I've never seen anything quite like that.

Basye's Blueberry unfortunately refused to grow here, so I had only the briefest observation of it, tho it grew very well for Kim Rupert under desert conditions.

Jeri

My Basye's Blueberry is new this year (from ARE), and is very healthy green and growing well, so far.

I know that there is a form of rose virus that results in yellow veins, but whether your bushes have it or not I cannot say. there are other problems that mimic rose virus sometimes. Maybe Dr. Manners will chime in with an opinion. You can always send some plant material off to a lab for testing. I agree, your bushes do not look too healthy.

Sandy

If the leaves grew in that way and are living a normal lifespan with the pattern unchanged, then I'm sure it is virus. If the leaves turned that way after they had greened up, and are dying, then it's not virus.

It looks like virus to me, but the history would answer the question.

If not virus and the leaves are dying from the bottom up, I would think about waterlogging as a possible cause.

You know, I would very much like to see pix of the Golden Celebration foliage recently described (but not pictured) here. (I think it was in the ROSES Forum?)

Maybe this is the same thing?
That would seem to indicate virus, perhaps.

Jeri

Basye's Blueberry 2007

{{gwi:289425}}

Basye's Blueberry 2008

{{gwi:289426}}

Basye's Blueberry 2009
{{gwi:289427}}

The two earlier pictures were taken in May, and the one this year was taken in June. I was surprised to see the black spot on it. I wonder if it just is not heat tolerant, or if it needs to be sprayed. When I used to spray, I barely sprayed it, but with no spray for so long, perhaps that is the problem.

Michael, if you are still reading, does waterlogging mean too much water? I have been thinking that it may be too little water. Perhaps with the 3 week episode of temps over 100, I did not water very deep, and the plant is dry. The stems do not look healthy. Whatever the problem is, I am afraid that I am going to lose them -- all three in a row.

Sammy

Sammy, my 'Basye's Blueberry' came from Chamblees.
I am pretty sure it had rose mosaic virus.
I posted pics of its leaves here and most viewers said my BB appeared to be virused.
I discarded it earlier this year for that reason.
Chamblees no longer sells that rose, thank goodness (too bad they apparently "burned" me first).
I will eventually order another one, but this time from The Antique Rose Emporium, because I like the rose very much.

Randy

I don't like to quote people without their permission, but once I was in a meeting with a small group of people involved in Earth Kind roses. I asked about Basye's Blueberry, and was told that it was one of the last to go before they would have accepted it as Earthkind.

My complaint during the meeting was that you could not grow roses in Oklahoma without watering them. You might have a lucky year, but they just wouldn't grow. I felt that the Earthkind program was unreasonable to demand that we couldn't water.

The Earthkind representative said that Texas was worse than Oklahoma, and I agreed. I always believed that Basye's Blueberry failed to make the cut because of the watering. Now as I see my plant deteriorating, I wonder if it is the disease suceptibility.

Does anyone have much information about the rose? I think I might try to contact the Earthkind people in Texas and ask. I am committed to growing roses without spray, and do not want to run a rose hospital. There are other Basye's roses, but I don't want them if they will not survive.

I am actually renewing my entire garden. I have decided that I don't want to watch a rose die, but just remove it. I thought Basye's Blueberry would do much better. The plants are quite beautiful even though my camera shots have not been that good. They have been a good "focus group" at then end of the path that goes through the arbor. But I can find other focus groups.

Just rambling.

I also have noticed that ARE sells the rose. Perhaps I should call them. I wonder if there is a reason to think that another Basye would do better.

Jeri, I showed a picture of my Golden Celebration in the early spring. It is a true mess. Mine has been so riddled with black spot that you could never tell if it had a virus.

SAmmy

SAmmy

Many (most? perhaps all?) of Dr. Basye's varieties were, unfortunately, infected with mosaic virus, since he strongly believed in grafting all his plants onto 'Fortuniana', and his strain of Fort was infected from the start. We cleaned up "Basye's Purple" but I don't recall ever working on any others of his roses, and if anyone has tested "Basye's Blueberry," it was not us. They do tend to perform well anyway, so people grow them without worrying much about it. On the other hand, I've never seen any of his roses express these specific symptoms, so I'm wondering if something else is going on here, such as drought stress.
Malcolm

Thank you so much for your input. That allows me to know exactly what to do. I think I should dig up more of the ground around these roses, and amend them with some compost, then try to measure the water that they are receiving.

Sammy

Sammy, if I could return to the history of these particular yellow veined leaves. Did they look like that when they grew in as young leaves weeks or months ago? Virus symptoms always show immediately on a set of leaves growing in at the same time, when the weather favors expression of symptoms. Then these particular leaves keep the virus symptoms as long as they live, which is often the whole season.

Or were these particular leaves once normal green, and they are gradually turning yellow and dying? Then it would be some cultural or environmental problem.

As you say, you should measure the output of your sprinklers. Set out a bunch of cat food cans an see how long it takes for the average can to collect 1/2" or 1".

Dr. Manners,
My specimen of 'Commander Gillette' has shown unusual broken pigmentation markings on most of its new growth that has made me wonder about its virus status. Now I am going to assume these markings are a result of virus. The markings do not correspond to traditional "lightning zig zags" that RMV typically makes on foliage, which is what made me ponder the cause. What a shame Dr. Basye was grafting onto infected 'Fortuniana' :-(

Michael, I just do not remember the conditions of the rose earlier on. Fortunately I took the last picture on June 3. More than likely this is a second flush, and the leaves were loaded with black spot. When I look carefully at the leaves, they seemed to not be a solid green.

The new growth is a nice dark green, but even then the upper leaves have the beginnings of some marks.

In Oklahoma we have no good dirt. We purchase it, and sometimes we do not get the correct mixture. If I put in too much top soil, then the heat will pack it down so much that a gentle sprinking of water will not penetrate the soil to the roots. On the other hand too much compost will create a swimming pool effect, and drown the roots. I think I need to do some measuring.

Sammy

Years ago there was a "story" going around that one of the major Florida rose sellers was deliberately grafting on a virus infected 'Fortuniana' as (here is where the story diverges into 2 sub stories:

1. the mild virus infection resulted in more vigorous plants as the plant was stimulated to additional growth to fight the infection (sort of what is claimed for Induced Plant Defense products such as Messenger http://ghex.colostate.edu/flor_ext/newsletter/vol_12/vol_12_no_4.htm )

or 2) the mild infection cross protected against a possible more serious virus infection.

Whether the story is true or not - that company is no longer in business.

Henry, I don't know how many years ago you may mean, but the only story vaguely resembling that one that I've heard in the last 25+ years is as follows:

There has only ever been one "major" 'Fortuniana' root nursery in Florida (by "major," I mean producing wholesale quantities, tens of thousands of plants per year), and they're still very much in business. They were also among the earliest of nurseries to use 'Fortuniana', which they called "Double Cherokee." Their old strain did have a rather virulent strain of mosaic in it (in the early years of Epcot, those beautifully "variegeted" 'Mister Lincoln' plants outside the USA exhibit were all from them, proudly labeled.)

In the mid-1980s, when we first started encouraging nurseries to clean up their stock, this nursery enthusiastically joined our program. We provided mosaic-free 'Fortuniana'. Unfortunately, as it turns out, we also provided them with a rooted cutting of Dr. Basye's so-called "Thornless Fortuniana," a rose he bred from a de novo cross of R. banksiae x R. laevigata (I'm not sure of the direction of the cross). So although it had the same species background as 'Fortuniana', it was a new, very different cultivar, and its performance was different from that of true 'Fortuniana' -- it was thornless, its one real claim to fame. Basye wanted it trialled, so this nursery was the logical place to do that. At the time, they understood clearly that it was not 'Fortuniana' and that it was for trial purposes only. But it turned out to be difficult to root from cuttings, difficult to graft with success, and scions grafted to it were nowhere nearly as vigorous or productive as they would have been on real 'Fortuniana' roots.

A few years passed, staff at the nursery changed, the owning family had a feud and those who had worked with us left. At some point (mid 1990s? I'm not sure), I had a call from their new head propagator, saying that they were not happy with the virus-free 'Fortuniana', and that the company had decided to go back to Grandpa's good old strain. They cited poor rooting, poor grafting success, and poor growth and productivity as the problems. By then, I had completely forgotten that I had ever given them Basye's Thornless Fortuniana. So I didn't know what the problem was, since we were having very much superior performance on all counts with our virus-free stuff. So I asked him to show me some examples. When I saw the rootstock sprouts, I realized they were not using 'Fortuniana' at all, rather, they were using Basye's new variety. Both types were clearly labeled when I gave them to them, years earlier, but at some point, they had mixed them up. So the problem was not freedom from mosaic at all. Nevertheless, the corporate decision had been made (the company now being run by the "other" side of the family), and as far as I know, they've used their infected strain continuously ever since.

As for the concept of cross-protection -- certainly that works with some viruses in some plants. But it definitely does not work in roses with mosaic. It's really easy to cross-infect a rose with as many different strains as you want, and they will all live in the plant together, happily. As you might expect,those plants may turn out to be unusually severe in their symptom development.

Regarding research on cross protect in roses, see:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119526785/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Here is a link that might be useful: cross protection in roses

In case your security system does not let you view that link:

Regarding cross protection of virus in roses.
Title: ROSE MOSAIC DISEASE SYMPTOMS INDUCED IN ROSES BY GRAFT INOCULATION WITH BOTH PRUNUS NECROTIC RINGSPOT VIRUS AND APPLE MOSAIC VIRUS
Author: THOMAS B J
Author affiliation: GLASSHOUSE CROPS RES. INST., WORTHING ROAD, LITTLEHAMPTON, WEST SUSSEX BN16 3PU, U.K.
Published in: Plant Pathology (Oxford), volume 33, pages 155-160, (1984).
Abstract: "Rose mosaic disease: Symptoms induced in roses by graft inoculation with both prunus necrotic ringspot virus and apple mosaic virus.Symptoms induced in rose by single isolates of the cherry serotype of prunus necrotic ringspot virus (PNRSV) and an apple serotype (apple mosaic virus; ApMV) were characteristically different, and appeared at different times throughout the growing season according to the ambient temperature. These features remained discrete, even in roses infected by both viruses and were shown by immunospecific electron microscopy to be a reliable indication of infection by either virus. However, cross-protection between the 2 isolates was not reciprocal; mixed infections were established only when roses were simultaneously graft-inoculated with ApMV and PNRSV, or when PNRSV-infected roses were super-infected with ApMV. The significance of these results in relation to the possible natural occurrence of mixed infections in rose or of isolates of intermediate serotype is discussed."

The link doesn't work for me, but I presume this article is NOT related to rose mosaic (PNRSV or ApMV) on roses, right?

Ok thanks for the abstract. Right -- the plant will host both viruses at once (or multiple strains of PNRSV).

The abstract is not as clear as I feel it could be on the subject of cross protection or the lack of.

The following is from page 159 of the full paper:

"Thus, based on symptom production and ISEM, ApMV cross-protected against graftinoculation with PNRSV, but PNRSV-infected plants could be re-infected with ApMV. Some plants graft-inoculated simultaneously with buds cariying either ApMV or PNRSV were infected by ApMV only, presumably because
the graft union of ihe ApMV infected bud, and multiplication therefore of ApMV, was established before that of the PNRSV-infected bud."

Dr. Manners, does this company make a secret of its infected rootstock? Doesn't the rose buying public have a right to know what they're buying when they buy from this company? I don't ask for myself because I've already bought infected roses from them and know who they are. It is not my desire to involve you in any legal issues, but this topic has been danced around while this company continues to sell diseased roses. Either they think people don't mind buying diseased roses or they think they do, in which case they are perpetrating a fraud, and I think they should be exposed.

My Mrs B R Cant came from this nursery and still looks like no rose bush I've ever seen. She's a tall and wide monster with few widely spaced canes and very sparse leaves, virtually no BS. I've only seen the zigzag yellow markings a few times, but obviously this rose is diseased. Should I keep her or not waste the space and amendments?

Sherry

Sherry,
You likely could have a better 'Mrs. B.R. Cant' if you replaced your plant with an uninfected one. And clean plants of that variety are readily available.

As for the nursery, it is unfortunate when any nursery chooses to continue to propagate infected plants.

Thanks, Malcolm. I'll put her on my "temporary list" which is getting longer every day. :)) I kind of think her present spot isn't good anyway (although she blooms on her shadiest side) since it's getting shadier and shadier. So perhaps an azalea would be happier there - hopefully, the soil is acidic enough. Maybe not.

As to the other matter, unfortunate is right. So I will just say that this nursery is not in South Florida.

Sherry

Sherry, I had the same issues with this particular nursey a few years back, and had several roses tested in a lab, at my expense. I demanded a refund for those roses, but of coarse, there were others I know were infected, but didn't pay to have those tested. Although I received a sizeable refund, it was only a fraction of what I had truly lost with this nursery. I had purchased a couple of hundred roses from them over a two year span. The cost of having them all tested was edging towards a huge expense, and they would not refund for those without test results as proof.

This nursery admitted to using infected stock, and could not see "what the big deal was". Nurseries with this attitude deserve to go out of business.

My experience with all of the other nurseries I've had dealings with since, are honest enough to admit whether they ever had a rose tested or not. Many times they have heat treated roses available, and if their mother plants came from Malcolm, I know they are clean. I respect these nuseries for their honesty, and they continually strive to rid themselves of infected roses. In some cases, a rose is only available virused, but at least I am given the choice whether to purchase it or not.

I called the state agricultural department with my concern when this happened to me, but they were only dealing with immediate threats to our Florida ecology; that is, infectious diseases and insects that spread virulently and cause great harm. Although sympathetic to my irritation, rose mosaic isn't a threat to our plant life here.

I would never expect anyone else to risk a legal issue with this nursery, and would never, ever, reveal things told to me in confidence, but I am "just" a disgruntled customer, with paperwork to back up my claim, so when I have been asked privately, I have given an honsest answer. I know that some roses will do fine, for some people despite being virused. Not one rose from this nursery lived more than two years for me, and they were pathetic looking things.

You would absolutely LOVE Mrs. B.R. Cant if you obtained a virus free bush.

Sandy

Sandy, I'm sure I would love a healthy Mrs B R, but unfortunately I don't have room. The spot where she is now is becoming too shaded, so having her in my yard is just not to be.

Sherry

Well, you never know Sherry. Someday down the road, a spot might just open up for her. In the meantime, it sounds like you are really enjoying what you do have.

Perhaps you could try a Florida native azalea. They are adapted to our soil, and are very pretty, in an old fashioned way. There is a pink azalea (Pinkster), and a Florida azalea that is yellow. I think either would do well for you, and you wouldn't have to worry about the soil so much. I love the native Florida plants. I have a few native plants tucked here and there, although some can get quite large.

Sandy

Your leaves do not look as vivid as these RMV infected leaves:

{{gwi:289428}}

{{gwi:289429}}

{{gwi:289430}}

My new leaves seem to be green, and are turning. In my case I am pretty sure now, thanks to all the help, that mine are a water issue. I intend to start a new thread about watering -- such an old subject.

It is hard for me to realize that we can have a downpour of rain, and the soil around the roses will barely be wet. Fortunately this year I am growing tomatoes in whiskey barrels, and some other things on the patio. We have had rain off and on the past few days. Yesterday when I tried to put a cutting in the pot on the patio that had potting soil, it was hard to get the trough through - through potting soil. The top inch or so was wet, but the rest was bone dry. I need to understand more fully the water needs of my plants. It seems like running a huge tri pod sprinkler for 3 or 4 hours is a waste of time. If anything, it just promotes weed growth, but the water does not seem to penetrate the mulch under the roses.

Thanks for all your replies.

Sammy

Since no one feels that they can mention the name of the Florida grower with the infected stock, can someone recommend some nurseries (using fortuniana) that do NOT have this issue? What do you do to find out, before you buy - call and ASK if they are using infected rootstock, lol?

Lynn

Lynn, since most of us do not like to "dis" a nursery, why not ask for the names of nurseries that have good stock?

Sammy

It's most unfortunate that there aren't many sources of 'Fortuniana' rooted roses left. Giles Roses, formerly our best nursery, is now closed as the owners retired. I seem to remember hearing that Becnel roses is also no longer in business? We do still have Cool Roses, who are good, but small, so the inventory is limited. I'm unaware of any other source that I can recommend.

Sammy, I WAS trying to ask which nurseries (that graft on fortuniana) were recommended ones (since no one wanted to mention the one that DID). Well, at least that's the way I tried to phrase it.

I do know of K&M Roses (who are in Mississippi, I believe? and not Florida) and I actually tried to order some roses from Cool Roses but I couldn't get them to respond to several e-mails (which I know they received because I have an e-mail tracker).....are they out of business or just doing so much that they don't need mine, ha, ha?!

Lynn

There once was a website that had ratings of nurseries. Is it still in existence, and does it have comments for Nelsons' Roses (since it is only wholesale)?

It's most unfortunate that there aren't many sources of 'Fortuniana' rooted roses left.

*** I might check to see if Burling Leong (Burlington Rose Nursery) works with Fortuniana.
I really DO want to know, since I think it would be good in my own soil (Fortuniana grows like a house afire here.)
And I wonder if a good Ragged Robin might make a good rootstock for our area. It, too, is very long-lived -- here.

Jeri

I have bought a few J&P roses on Fortuniana from Lowes. Does J&P graft their own? I know they used to buy from Merry-Gro in Eustis, FL before they went out of business.

Sherry

Can someone tell me where I can get a 'Basye's Blueberry' rose that would have a good chance at not being virus infected? It's a beautiful, fragrant, completely thornless rose, and would be a shame if it was not available virus-free.

Randy

"Can someone tell me where I can get a 'Basye's Blueberry' rose that would have a good chance at not being virus infected?"

I believe the odds of this are slim to none since, as Dr. Manners indicated, its highly likely that all of the Basye roses are contaminated, except 'Basye's Purple', which Dr. Manners heat treated to clean it of virus. The thing to do at this stage would be to grow self seedlings of it and select for the best one(s) and promote these as a healthy alternative.

That said, 'Basye's Blueberry' grows beautifully (as do most of the Basye hybrids) in spite of their infection(s).

I've never been able to get Cool Roses to repond to either my phone calls or e-mails, so I don't know exactly what's up with that. I have also never been able to get a response to my question as to whether their rootstock is clean or not either. I believe they are still in business though.

As far as other nurseries go that are known to graft on fortuniana, I have no recommendations, at least in what can be considered Central Florida. You may be able to read between the lines here.

Becnel Roses is out of business now. I used to get nice roses from them.

The best thing we can do is obtain virus free fortuniana as a stock plant, and practice grafting.

Sandy