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| I'll start by saying that I'm a complete novice concerning old roses. Before this year I have only grown modern roses - well...see below for the old rose that got me intrigued about old roses. Now, I see a lot of posts asking for identification of some old pink rose found growing behind the barn, and while I admire the expertise that goes into such amazing feats, I realize it's a lot to expect. So I am setting my hopes way lower that that. All I want to know is what KIND of rose this is. Honestly I barely know a rugosa from a bourbon I'm so wet behind the ears. Here's The history. Three years ago we cleared some scrubby woods at the edge of our property and I found a few pink roses among the weeds under pine boughs that had been pulled down by grapevine. I've followed the growth and I can see that the rose has migrated over the years from the old abandoned gardens from the home next or the woods have overtaken the gardens, hard to tell which. No one has tended a garden in that area for generations, and it's an 18th century home, so the rose could be any age. So I rescued a patch of them and gave them a bit of TLC. Last year I got a lot of nice foliage and a handful of wimpy blooms, honestly I wondered if it was a wild rose until I saw the beautiful full blossoms this year. What you see below is this year's crop. Very fragrant. It's been blooming for about two weeks and almost done. Blossom
A different looking blossom, but from the same plant
The whole plant, or rather colony
Fuzzy buds
Leaves
Encroaching where it doesn't belong
An older cane with some new growth - very thorny on the lower growth.
So folks, what kind of rose do I have?? Kind thanks for helping me solve this mystery. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Unfortunately, knowing little about OGRs, I can't help, but I would love to hear what kind, also, because I have a similar-looking unnamed rose that I got as a cutting from the gardener at the 18th century garden at the Strong House Museum in Amherst, MA. (It does get around -- I have to circumscribe it with a shovel every year, or else it would have the whole garden.) That was one thing I loved about the town of Leverett, MA where I lived then and New England in general -- you would see these kinds of roses just growing wild in the ditches along the roads; what was left, perhaps, from long-gone gardens. |
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- Posted by mendocino_rose z8 N CA. (My Page) on Wed, Jul 3, 13 at 19:17
| The fuzzy buds make me think it could be a moss rose. Many of them migrate like you described. Try rubbing the bud and then smelling your fingers. It could have a piney smell. |
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| It definitely has some American species rose in it, perhaps rosa carolina. It reminds me of something a friend found in coal country in Pennsylvania at an old home site. I can't figure out how to upload multiple images in my reply so the next four posts will be additional pics of my fiends' rose... |
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| Whatever the names of these roses, they're beautiful and you're lucky to have found them. Congratulations. I'd say in the Moss rose family as well. Diane |
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| My thought was also that this may be a Moss Rose. DO rub your fingers over those buds, and see if there is a bit of sticky resin, and that piney scent that. And, tell me if the mossy buds are very SOFT moss, or whether they are stiff-ish. The former would make it more likely a Centifolia Moss, and the latter a Damask Moss. (I'd guess Centifolia.) I like different parts of roses, so I really really like the bracts, which have that nice round look -- "ovate" -- that is. I'm guessing that it sets hips? Love to see those. Living where I do, I don't SEE roses like this, so I hope someone else has guesses. Jeri |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 9:58
| I couldn't wait to go out and rub the roses this morning :) YES, the mossing does smell piney. Better than piney, can't quite put my finger on the scent. The moss is soft and fuzzy. By comparison I have a few mini-mosses that have prickly buds. This is kitten fuzz compared to my minis. Jeri, thank you for inspiring me to learn some basic rose anatomy. I didn't know what a bract was, and it's actually a part of the plant that I find so interesting and appealing, as well as the part below (stipule, right?) because of the pink centers.
No idea about mature hips yet because the something ate the few blooms I got last year. This is what they look like now.
So, I'm curious about something. Roses like mine and belmont's, to me anyhow don't seem like a wild or native plant, would that be correct? Though, as catspa mentions we find them growing wild in the ditches all over the northeast. Mine is almost certainly a stray from a long abandoned garden and it spreads (aggressively!) along its roots. Do the birds & the bees also breed & spread old garden roses about, or is what we see growing "wild" more likely to be the remnants of abandoned garden roses? |
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| Mossing apparently began as a sport on centifolia and damask roses (separately) and so is a feature of garden roses rather than North American species roses. The species in which mossing apparently originated is R. fedschenkoana, a native of Central Asia which is a parent of damasks. Centifolias are related to damasks in some way that is not clearly understood. Your rose could be a self-pollinated seedling of a garden rose (in which case it is a unique hybrid), or it may have migrated from the original site by suckering. OGR with many petals are often nearly sterile, but yours, not so very double, seems to be setting viable hips. Here is a research article on mossing. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Rose moss
This post was edited by michaelg on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 13:29
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 13:35
| Look at red mosses. It may or may not be a named one, as Michael suggested. |
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| Good suggestion from Mad Gallica. "Pink" wasn't a color until some time in (I think) the 19th Century. Before that, what we call "Pink" was called "Light Red." (Which, of course, it IS.) We have ample proof that roses can hybridize all on their own, and produce something entirely new. As Bob Martin once remarked: "Roses happen." But, since you have an 18th-Century house near you, and since your rose is suckering like mad, I'd make a guess that it's an "escapee" from a deserted garden. BTW, I'm a sucker for stipules like that. Love 'em. :-) Below see a stipule from "Grandmother's Hat." On her, the red fades as the bloom ages. "Old Town Novato" has stupules like that, too. Jeri |
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| Species roses are single or very close to single. Yours are clearly doubled. So I don't think it is a species. I agree with those who identify it as a moss. The semi-double or double blooms, the prickly growths on the peduncle, stem and sepals, and the peppery smell when you rub the bud, pretty much leads one in that direction. Moss roses are not "wild" in the sense of being a species. But many of them can 'grow wild' ( the correct term is "naturalize") in that they can take care of themselves and can spread by suckers. Although they often will set hips, the hips rarely contain viable seeds. But it's not completely unheard of, so seeding is a possibility, too. Identification of specific varieties of roses with moss characteristics can be problematic. As michaelg wrote above, it is now accepted that the "moss mutation' occurred at least twice (on two different roses). And in the early 1800's, a chance single moss rose was discovered, which the hybridizers immediately took advantage of. Thus in the 1800's there were literally hundreds of .varieties. of moss roses developed and released, not to mention natural, undocumented hybrids and sports. |
This post was edited by nickl on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 16:43
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| I love your rose and everything about it; The shape and color of the leaflets and the number of them and how closely they grow near one another. That scary and impressive armature. Pretty buds, darling rounded bloom shape. Do the blossoms have fragrance? Lux. |
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| I'm going to take a stab at a guess -- look up 'A Longs Pedoncules' at the HelpMeFind link below. One of the pics there has the caption "Photo 2 taken in Mike Lowe nursery in New Hampshire" so at least it was available and for sale in your state. While it may not have come from his nursery, perhaps Mike Lowe collected it as a foundling much the way you did. Again, just a guess..... :-) ~Christopher |
Here is a link that might be useful: 'A Longs Pedoncules' at HelpMeFind
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| Christopher, I would call that a pretty educated guess. The roses do indeed look very similar. |
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| I went through Vintage Gardens' Moss inventory, and then looked each up on HelpMeFind. I thought it strange that I thought I found a match on the second try, so I kept going through them all. But it was still the closest. Then again, it could also be a hybrid of one of the prickly-hipped species, or simply a hybrid between a Moss and some local wild species rose. What leaves me puzzled is the number of leaflets the mystery rose has -- seems more than I'd expect from a Moss, but then again, I'm not overly familiar with them. :-) ~Christopher |
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| The leaflet numbers got me too. So like some species roses & so unlike mosses I'm familiar with. But those buds & peduncles... Whatever, that is one fine rose. Robust & healthy looking. And I love the big double nodding flowers. Ha! if you're thinning out suckers of it & want to swap when the weather cools off, I'd love a baby! So glad you rescued that fine looking plant--enjoy! |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Fri, Jul 5, 13 at 9:41
| Christopher, VERY interesting guess because Mike Lowe lived about 10 miles from our home. Certainly my rose has been growing for longer than he would have been selling roses, but gosh they look similar, close cousins at least. I never had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Lowe, he passed away about the time I moved to NH. I have not connected with the local garden club but I read in the paper last month (a day too late!) that they were selling cuttings of Mike Lowe’s collection. So perhaps this will get me motivated to connect with those folks and maybe someone who knew him might know the story of where he acquired A Longs Pedoncules. Or maybe one of them will even recognize my rose! I have to wonder if all of the photos of A Longs Pedoncules on HMF are of the exact same plant. Regardless, there are a couple differences, which is why I called it a close cousin. Mike's buds are much mossier, but the biggest difference is the foliage. On my plant, even the leaves on the older growth are soft & thin. The whole plant has fine delicacy. If we make the leap of assumption that A Longs Pedoncules is known to have grown in this area long ago, one imagines that neighboring gardeners might acquire their roses from a common resource. I see that Roberts bred a few dozen mosses, maybe this is another of his. Or, could mine be the result of a natural cross breeding of A Longs Pedoncules with another type of rose. If so what kind of rose would you propose as the other parent and why? I do find it interesting that one reference cites that A Longs Pedoncules performs best in part-shade and woodland settings. Mine gets almost no direct sun and is perfectly happy. It’s one of the few shaded spots in our upper yard, my sanctuary from the sun. Lux, yes it’s wonderfully fragrant. Bluegirl, I would love to share a piece of her with you! Or anyone really, there a shoots coming up everywhere and they’ll need to be culled. I’d need advice on how best to harvest and ship. I have had difficulty communicating with this forum’s private messaging; I think my replies get lost. If anyone wants to contact me please feel welcome to email ratdogheads @ gmail dot com Thank you everyone for all your insight, I am learning so much and am inspired delve deeper. When I get caught up on my weeding (ha-ha) I will get busy reading and researching. Di |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Fri, Jul 5, 13 at 9:45
| One more thing and then I'll go pull weeds, I promise. I finally figured out what the scent of the moss resin reminds me of - camphor. To be specific, my Grandma's camphor chest. |
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| Rosa carolina and rosa virginiana can both have glands on the hips like your rose does but it's not really like the moss on a moss rose. I find that the glands on carolina to some extent and especially on virginiana can smell like Juicy Fruit gum. Not sure if that translates as camphor... There are species roses and species crosses that are double. Rosa carolina plena, Rose d'amour, Rose D'orsay, and Banshee come to mind. Please, please, please would you be willing to share some runners sometime? |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b (My Page) on Fri, Jul 5, 13 at 16:33
| Banshee has my attention. The foliage is right, I've even found photos with the red stipules, the less mossy look of the buds is right, also my buds have long sepals (?) but maybe not quite so long as some of the photos of Banshee. But the flowers are not quite right. It's definitely not like the photos of the one High Country sells. I see that Celeste Woodbury mentions it being common in NH cemeteries, but the photos she has on HMF are not my rose. Actually none of the Banshee HMF photos are like mine. I see discussion of balling; I didn't have any, even in this rainiest summer in recent memory. Of course as I begin to read about Banshee, there seems to be a lot of confusion and disagreement about it. Interesting reading, this will keep me busy for a long while. I am so done weeding for the day, it's 100 degrees here! Well, whatever it turns out to be, I would be more than happy to share with anyone interested :) Di |
This post was edited by ratdogheads on Fri, Jul 5, 13 at 17:30
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| I wasn't suggesting Banshee as a match for your rose, just an example of a possible American species cross that is double. Your hips seems differently shaped. Banshee leaves have a pea green color which is a giveaway. Your leaves seem darker but it could be the photo. Does your foliage turn yellow or salmon in the fall? That's another characteristic of Banshee and some American species. There's a good article on Banshee in the Mystery Roses issue of Rosa Mundi. One reason I'd like to get runners from you is so I can study your rose and let some other people see it. |
This post was edited by belmont on Sun, Jul 7, 13 at 8:40
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| If it doesn't ball, you can rule out 'Banshee'. |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Sat, Jul 6, 13 at 12:22
| Just for reading ease, I am calling the mystery rose by the name we've given it, which is the Baboosic rose. I didn't mean to jump to any uneducated conclusions about Banshee; you know how it is with any new field of knowledge - one is constantly jumping up and shouting Eureka!! I don't know how definitive the article is but Banshee: The Great Impersonator by Leonie Bell (found on Paul Barden's site) said many things that struck a chord with me. Baboosic's foliage does not change color in the fall. I looked around the garden to see what foliage is the closest shade of green, and my one year old Tuscany Superb is a actually a pretty good match for both color and thickness but Baboosic is just a wee bit shinier. |
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| Hi Belmont: Just a note on the terminology of "species". There is a difference between what is scientifically considered a species (of roses or of anything else) and what are classified as "Species Roses", either by the ARS for exhibition purposes or otherwise. All actual rose species are 'wild' or capable of becoming so under the right conditions. But not all 'wild' roses, or roses that are/were found growing 'wild', are actual rose species. When I was referring to "species", I was referring to actual botanical species.. Sorry about the confusion. . |
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| That Leonie Bell article is one of the best sources. The Rosa Mundi article builds on that. Leonie Bell was the author's mentor. The article begins with a profile of Mrs Bell. Shiny leaves could suggest R. virginiana heritage. Yes, I know how it is when exploring. You get to run through different possibilities...and you learn more along the way. |
This post was edited by belmont on Sun, Jul 7, 13 at 0:04
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| Thanks to ratdogheads for starting this interesting and informative thread, and congratulations on rescuing this beautiful rose that is so well adapted to the northeastern US. The full bush shot is so pretty. Does it have any blackspot? How about Belmont's friend's rose? |
This post was edited by michaelg on Sat, Jul 6, 13 at 15:31
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| Thank you, michaelg, for the link to that interesting article. I have always been confused about what kind of rose moss roses are thought to be, so the info that mossing has occurred separately in two different classes is helpful. |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Sun, Jul 7, 13 at 5:42
| Yes, it gets some blackspot. Not terrible. |
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| No blackspot to speak of on my friend's rose, which she calls 'Sculp's Hill.' Here is a new picture from this morning. (The rose on the far right is something else.) |
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| Here's a shot of Rosa virginiana. |
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| Rosa virginiana detail |
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| Catspa, rose classification is a ramshackle affair, but "moss" is a particularly weird classification. It's like dividing mammals into rodents, apes, ungulates, canines (etc), and then "animals with spots." The sainted Ralph Moore further confused the issue by breeding minis that are mossed. |
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| Interesting....quite a resemblance to the 'R. virginiana' pic posted... :-) ~Christopher |
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| Beautiful rose, although I can't help with I.D. Hope you find it! or atleast what type it could be, love the moss! I sent you a email BTW. Do ya'll know why the blooms droop? Could it have tea in it? I know I'm not a expert, but was wondering? |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Wed, Nov 13, 13 at 10:28
| Interesting update! I had stated above that my rose didn't change color in the fall. Surprise, it does! Previously I had looked at a pic from last October which is our peak leaf season and my rose had green leaves at the time. This is what it looks like today, decidedly colorful, while every other rose in my garden is still quite green. Belmont, if you're reading, you had asked for a piece of this rose and sent me a nice message, but I'm pretty sure GW isn't allowing me to respond. If you (or anyone else) would like me to share, pls send a message that includes a regular email address so we can correspond off GW's system. |
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- Posted by ratdogheads 5b NH (My Page) on Wed, Nov 13, 13 at 13:41
| Also, there are a handful of hips, if those are of interest to anyone. |
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| I believe Seil was looking for hips if you'd like to contact her! |
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