Return to the Antique Roses Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
A Tea Garden

Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 7, 14 at 19:10

I have been trying to figure what to do with the lowest part of the yard. It has a few plants/trees that are staying and is set to be the low spot should we get rain. I have the center of this fairly hot and sunny 40x50 aprox area to do something with, I can make the center bigger and change the shape some. This year it is pumpkins, goards and watermelons. But I am thinking it would make a nice "Tea Garden" Madame Lombard is already down there along with the fence line of big roses

There is some shade if needed. A couple of climbers up posts/rebar arches might be nice. And there are places for taller and shorter. I would like to define a couple of entry points. It is visible from the street gates, I am not trying to completely block the view but would like to direct the view It would be a nice place to sit and visit with the neighbors as well. The house has a nice view down there too

Judging from the out of stock listings, I have some time to work on the layout, elevations and hard scape .

Any suggestions as better Teas or ones to skip?

Since the two teas in my propagation box both look pretty sorry, when and how have any of you had success in starting them? Shameless request for cuttings if you think they will start. I figure I will keep in large pots for a bit while I decide if the layout works and decide about the three marginal fruit trees in the general area. A sickly orange mom wanted out, the pear with the fireblight issues and the odd shaped peach we already replaced and decided we like others better

Thanks!!


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: A Tea Garden

So far, Rosette Delizy is the best Tea I've seen in this area. I hear great things about the Cochets, Gilbert Nabonnand, Le Pactole, Monsieur Tillier, Etoile de Lyon, General Schablikine, Lady Hillingdon, Mme. Berkeley, Mme. Antoine Mari, and William R. Smith for the most part.

Safrano, Comtesse Emmeline de Guigne, Susan Louise (What I suspect is this rose gets huge here at a nearby home), Souvenir de Pierre Notting, Marie Van Houtte, Puerto Rico, Mlle. de Sombreuil, Devoniensis, Miss Atwood, Lady Roberts, General Gallieni, and DdB (at least from Jeri's experiences with it here) seem to be a bit more mixed in their reviews, but generally liked.

I have a few and have planted around 8 teas for my mom in the past two years. Adam went and croaked a few weeks ago. I really wanted that one to succeed, but I'm now trying Souvenir d'Elise Vardon from RU. Rosette Delizy is definitely the best so far. Rubens has been hesitant to bloom, but healthy. General Schablikine recently arrived, but General Gallieni has been very healthy even though it arrived instead of Gilbert Nabonnand which also came recently during the RU summer sale. The others are Madame Berkeley, Lady Hillingdon, Madame Lombard, and a Puerto Rico that's coming in the fall.

I'll let you know how these cultivars fare, but I'm sure Jeri and others have a better sense of which varieties do best in the long run in Coastal So Cal. I would guess that there are some that people just don't report about in these conditions that are worth growing, but it would take some experimenting to find out. I have no idea how Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux would do here, but it seems worth a shot to try it. Same for Baronne Henriette Snoy and many others.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

For me, Mrs BR Cant is the best. My Rosette d Lizzy grows straight up, for me it doesn't have a classic tea shape. Plus it's prone to sudden cane death.

Marie D'Orleans is similar to Madame Lambard, the flowers are a darker pink. She can get huge and has big thorns.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I love Marie D'Orleans, Dr. Grill, General Schlablikine, Clementina Carbonieri, Angel's Camp Tea, Monsieur Tillier (is he a China)? G. Nabonnand, Francis Dubreuil (whatever he is).
But I have no idea how similar our climates are.
Etoile de Lyon is growing verrrrrry slowly. Couldn't get Perle d' Jardins to grow.
Mrs. BR Cant is a gorgeous rose that gets huge. I wish I had the space to grow it.
Mutabalis is a china (so is Comtesse du Cayla, I think), but they would go great with these colors and contrast nicely with the "lushness" of the big tea blooms.
How much fun you get to have!
Susan


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I have had Rosette Delizy in my shopping cart so many times and some how, I still do not have her! My fault of course changing my mind or having eyes bigger than my wallet. I will keep watching for when she comes back in stock.

I have G. Nabonnand planted recently, once it is big enough, i will try a cutting but it is a baby now so that will be awhile.

I also have Archduke Joseph who is also taking off like gang busters. Another one that could donate cuttings in a while

I am thinking of moving Lady Hillingdon, new thread for that question. I really want a climbing version, but it seems that is harder to find. Someone had mentioned that the climber is more vigorous.

I have Safrano "near" by Mutabalis, they looked further apart before Mutabalis. I think Mutabalis likes our gardens, it looked like a pretty miserable plant for the first month but now it is busy on the Safrano side and I love the color of the new growth.

Not doing well in my propagation box is a cutting of Belle Portugaise, no gasping how lucky I am that it is not looking good. Linda said it is probably from an early import from a local botanist so it would be kind of neat to have a rose of his and besides, I have far too many persimmon trees so it can have one or two.

Any thoughts on these not being good picks? I can not pick all but any thoughts on some being too similar or fussy? Any sizes different than listed?

Baronne Henriette Snoy (mildew?)
Catherine Mermet
Dr Grill
Duchesse de Brabant (mildew?)
Francis Dubreuil (Barcelona right, not an actual Tea?)
Le Pactole
Madame Lombard
Monsieur Tillier (big boy right)
Papa Gontier
Rubens

This will be a fun project, the bottom part of the property has always been ignored and had very little regular use.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kippy,

Regarding DdB, how bad is mildew where you live and does it carry on all year long or is it a seasonal thing? In my area we do get quite a lot of it but only in spring and fall. This year has been a perticularly bad year for PM since our humid spring lasted for ever (Late Feb to early June). Yes DdB gets mildewy. My young grafted rose still in a pot did get a severe case of it in spring but this never stopped her blooming. It seems to have shaken it off now with the dry summer onset. If you are the sort of gardener who cannot tolerate any leaf disease then you might want to stay away from it. However you will be missing out on a very impressive Tea rose, a blooming machine which seems to be blooming more the warmer it gets! I would give it a try if I were you. Keep in mind that you will need to provide her with lots of water to help her resist PM and look her best. Definitely not a drought tolerant rose as far as I can tell although this may change once it is established which I understand can take a few years.
Nik


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Nik

We are north of Jeri and Jay but on the southern California coast where fog is called May gray and June gloom and often does not really break til August plus we are in a drought since my list is bigger than space I don't want to put really fussy or sick plants in. But if they are more like Iceberg who also mildews but does not care then it is a different story. Especially if they bloom consistantly and have a nice scent


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

DdB is definitely a bloom machine. You may or may not be able to detect a fragrance. Certainly not a strong smelling rose but the transparency of this shell-pink colour and the airyness of the blooms is something one can readily appreciate.
Nik


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I've just added Mme. Antoine Mari because of its supposed "drought and disease resistance"; Mrs. Dudley Cross because of her relative lack of prickles and Louis Philippe because of its supposed disease resistance and how incredible it has appeared when I've seen it in old cemeteries. Of course I added them with an eye toward their use in breeding for those stated traits. I can highly recommend Ping Dong Yue Ji for scent, ease of propagation, heavy flowering, beauty and ease of growth. It is also fertile and has crossed with some interesting things. If you can provide shade from the hottest sun so the flowers can last longer, Purpurea has some of the most wonderfully beautiful foliage imaginable. It is bullet proof here in Encino with absolutely no mildew nor spotting of any kind, very low prickle count and it roots easily. The flowers fry in the hot sun, but Comtesse du Cayla grows and flowers without issue here. It also propagates fairly easily. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Thank you Kim!

Mme Antoine Mari is on my Burling list and Comtesse du Cayla is on the list too.

Ping Dong Yue Ji is very nice too

When do you have the best luck with Mrs Dudley Cross? She is the other failing cutting in my box. One looks like a no-go but will wait and see cause I have given up too soon in the past and pulled up what I thought was dead just to ruin a nice root. The other pot is borderline but hoping

Plenty of shade down there Purpurea would like it there

Your Lamarque is down there on the upper side of the gate looking very happy and busy hiding buds as fast as it can. Not growing tall but spreading out.

Sorry for any misspellings trying to catch all the auto correct changes but hard with rose names!


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I've not tried rooting Mrs. Cross until now, Kippy. Fortunately the cuttings came with a very well rooted, two gallon plant so should these not take, there will be more to play with. Until hitting upon burying pots of cuttings up under the Apostle Plant foliage in the over crowded front planter, I'd never had any success rooting roses this time of year nor in these conditions here in Encino. But, it appears the high humidity from the over crowded, jam packed area is making the difference. If you try Purpurea, give it LOTS of room. Jimofshermanoaks' plant was easily seven by four feet! It grew in the shade of a citrus tree and seemed determine to overtake it. Ping Dong I wrapped and it took quite easily. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Baronne Henriette Snoy (mildew?) -- Dunno.

Catherine Mermet -- CAN be mildewy.

Dr Grill -- DUNNO.

Duchesse de Brabant (mildew?) -- Some clones mildew. Some not.

Francis Dubreuil (Barcelona right, not an actual Tea?) -- Yes. It apparently IS Barcelona.
Like many fragrant reds, it can be mildewy here. And it was a weak grower for us. Get it budded???

Le Pactole -- Will mildew when immature or stressed. Otherwise clean. Great bloomer. Will be BIG.

Madame Lombard -- Will mildew when immature, and a little bit when mature. But it's such a bloomer, I don't care.

Monsieur Tillier (big boy right) -- Yes, big and beautiful. And clean. And prolific.

Papa Gontier -- DUNNO.
Rubens -- DUNNO.

YOU NEED: Rosette Delizy, General Gallieni, Licorice Tea, Marie van Houtte (BIG!) Archduke Charles, for sure.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I've heard quite a few negative reports about Rubens and took mine out a long time ago; really not that attractive. Mrs. Dudley Cross unfortunately does mildew for me during the cooler seasons. Rosette Delizy is excellent for me and always has blooms. It's a little taller than wide but still a shapely bush. William R. Smith has not done well at all for the past two years of drought and has no blooms at all. Mme. de Sombreuil is fabulous, especially for such a young rose, with lots of buds all the time and no disease at all.

Ingrid


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

thanks Jeri.

I have Archduke Charles. He is doing pretty good but something munched the leaves off one side of him

If I take out the orange tree I will have room for an extra large rose down there. Do all of these dislike any pruning at all or are they okay with minor touch ups?

If Mme Berkeley is a VW what do you think Marie VH, Mons Tiller and Le Pactole time will be? I think i can park a few VWs down there. I'll

What I should do is have a garden day and have you all visit for ideas


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Ingrid

Good to know about Rubens

I forgot to list Mme we Sombreuil, I was going to put her down there too. It might be a ad cooler down there and damper

I did cover the soil with a thick layer of horse manure and woods chips so the soil should be pretty good by the time I put anything in the ground


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

FWIW I think that Rubens might be an excellent tea near the coast if it blooms with more regularity when it's mature. The plant itself is very clean and is growing at a slightly slower rate than Rosette Delizy. It may be one that doesn't love intense heat, but only time will tell.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Thanks Jay. I found Rubens in a 5g so it would start out bigger

It seems wetter down there than one would expect considering the lack of rainfall. On the other hand. Some of that might be due to the damp migrating from the top of the hill and veggie garden. That was a nice surprise when I was digging the other day. Not garden moist. But not bone dry either. I have heard that the area was more seasonal wet lands before the city pumped that aquifer decades ago. I remember the townhouse lot having a little lake in rainy years and the boathouse dock


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Mind, I am ONLY speaking for what we have experienced in OUR coastal garden.

Kippy, it's hard to compare Mme. Berkeley and Marie van Houtte, as their habits are so different. MB is twiggier and denser. MvH is definitely taller and wider, but far more open.

Like Ingrid, we had severe mildew trouble with Mrs. Dudley Cross.

As for Duchesse de Brabant -- some clones seem to mildew badly, others don't.

Kippy -- There WERE wetlands here and there across the Oxnard Plain, and further up. Most of them seem to have been efficiently drained -- with a resultant loss of wildlife. :-(


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Thanks Jeri, I think our conditions are both very similar and kind of different. But generally similar. Some day you have to visit and you can see what you think for yourself. I think Marie Van Houtte might be good to put on the street side of the Tea garden. It will have a hedge one day, hopefully, of Cl Cecile Brunner behind her, I would like to keep room to walk between the roses. So I guess I will have some measuring and planning to do.

We have coyote and a bobcat that visit from the other side of the fence. I just hope they stay on the other side of the fence. We still have the hawks, variety of birds, raccoon, and of course more skunks that anyone needs and they all seem to visit nightly. Hoping I can keep the bunnies-gophers-moles on the other side of the fence.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I'll tell you -- gophers are the big danger. When you start putting plants in the ground, and watering, the gophers may migrate in. They sure did here, and they refuse to leave.

And nor, we won't poison them. I HATE that.

Our creep of a neighbor does use poison, and we periodically find dying gophers staggering across the street toward our place. I really fear that some of them may make it through our fence, where a dog may eat them, poisoning the dog.

We don't have skunks tho! :-) Good for us!


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Update

I now have a nice berm/swale for the upper part of the Tea Garden that has a nice 1/4 circle shape of about 30' At the street side I have 'Pink Gate' next to a persimmon, the space beyond is another 25 feet.

I am going to make an arch of some sort and move 'Alister Stella Gray' to one side to climb and put 'Barrone Prevost' on the other side (not a climber).

This leaves:

Safrano that I will move
G Nabonnand that I will move

I need to save room for Rosette Delizy

From Burling I have ordered

'Sunset' (any info on this one?)
'Madame Anton Mari'
'Mrs B R Cant'
'Smiths Parish Tea'
'Comtesse du Cayla'

I still have a few others I would like including:
Mme we Sombreuil
General Gallieni
Licorice Tea
Anna Olivier
General Schablikine?
Miss Attwood?
Lady Roberts?

Of all of the ones listed above, what 5 do you think would all be aprox 5' wide or bigger?

Which would be closer to 4 feet wide?

Any have fewer thorns? I know some are listed as nearly thornless but I have to wonder....

Are any short? I figure most roses in CA are not the sizes listed but it is hard to keep track

I think I will plant Marie Van Houte and Mons Tillier next to each other on a different level as a screen for the screen (once I can get them) And Madame Lombard to be across the "bay" from Madame Berkeley

I thought I had a plan and then decided to alter the lay out. I like this much better and I can add a couple of extra plants. I did end up taking out the orange tree and severely pruning one peach tree to make easier to pick. I like what I have much better now than what I thought I had figured out before. Plus it makes two sides of the tea garden, one public and an area that will be more private from the street and just for us to enjoy with the added benefit of any fence crashers finding themselves with one way to go or get caught in thorns (easier for a game camera to catch them) I guess mom climbing my berm and my need to fence it does have a benefit.

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Fri, Aug 8, 14 at 10:20


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

It will be pretty, Kippy. The Mme. Antoine Mari I received from Bluegirl is completely prickle free.

Comtesse du Cayla is the mass of twiggy growth with the Jack and the Beanstalk cane pushed through the center out in the middle by the huge Manetii. It's flowers fry pretty quickly in the hot sun here. Now you've endured it, you can compare it to your conditions and translate what I write into how it might do for you in yours. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Miss Atwood and Rosette Delizy are not terribly thorny, although for truly thornless you'd have to have Mrs. Dudley Cross, complete with mildew at times. Miss Atwood is a big girl, and so is Mrs. B. R. Cant. I don't have any of your others except Mlle. de Sombreuil, who is only about a year old so I don't know how large she'll be when mature, but she's one of the fastest-growing bands I've ever had, with loads of buds and blooms. She's taking a rest now but I'm seeing new growth again. I really liked Madame Lambard when I had her in a previous garden.

Ingrid


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kippy, if you are still looking, I know roses unlimited has climbing lady Hillingdon, or at least they did last month when I ordered one for spring delivery. I know they are clear across the country from you but if you are willing to order from them I think they'd still have it. I looked for a while and couldn't find another source for it.


Jessica


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

If you order from RU, they may also have Belmont Yellow (you'll have to check with them) which is possibly the same rose as Schmidt's Smooth Yellow. If you want to plant the two together, you could be the experimenter who determines whether or not they are the same. I can propagate a Schmidt's for you, if you're game! Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Here's Barbara Oliva, standing next to Lady Roberts, in the Sacramento City Cemetery. As you see, she is BIG, floriferous, and healthy.

Comtesse du Cayla simply refused to live here, so I never saw her mature here. But she is IMMENSE in the Sacramento City Cemetery.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Wow, Jeri! I'll bet Barbara has never been described to anyone as "BIG, floriferous, and healthy" before! LOL! Kim

This post was edited by roseseek on Fri, Aug 8, 14 at 12:44


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kim. I think I would fry in moments on your hillside, and did. Lol

If I ordered Cl Lady Hillingdon and Belmont Yellow, what should be the third? Something not available on the west coast preferably

Maybe if should put Belmont Yellow and Schmidt's smooth yellow on either ends of that not yet designed arch and see how they look a few yards apart in similar conditions. They are both climbers right

Jeri. What do you this was comtessa du Cayla's issue with your garden? Soil fog heat shade cool. What might make her happy? With Kim's comment I think I will place in a mid day shade spot out of the blast furnace wind zone I have been obsessively checking Safrano since yours all grew backwards for either new growth or dying canes. I think I will move her because the new spot will be easier to watch her

Do some teas do better budded than own root? I seem to have little success in rooting them but maybe that is the time of the year for them.

I need to figure out a mist table using a suspended bucket for water since we shut down our lines most of the time.

Suggestions and ideas welcome!

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Fri, Aug 8, 14 at 14:59


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Honestly, I think her problems were alkalinity, and a dislike for our [normally] cool temperatures. (So, THIS year, we have had heat, and she might have liked that.)

I have seen my wimpy-even-when-budded Crepuscule suddenly double in size, and cover itself with blooms -- in the weeks of horrible, unwelcome heat. She LOVED it! (I hated it!)

So, I just think that's the crux of the matter.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Sorry about the miss spellings. I hate typing using the android pad. It goes back ad decides that even though I re-corrected the spell check corrections that I really did not mean it after all. Arrrrggg. Now to try and fix with the iPhone


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Sorry to jump in with a question here for Jeri - but I've recently bought a Lady Roberts and I have two Safrano (one was mis-labelled as Sombreuil) - I want to create a 'Tea Rose and Old Rose Garden' and wonder if you could tell me how large Safrano grows in comparison to Lady Roberts which, from your photo, I would estimate is a good 2 metres tall?

Tricia


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Tricia, I've never had any luck here with Safrano. I think there are a great many people who grow it wonderfully -- and I only wish I did.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Many thanks Jerijen - I'll go with the description in my 'Old Roses for Warm Gardens' …. "vigorous, tall, angular, spreading" and leave them plenty of room ….

Sorry for butting in Kippy!

Tricia


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

No problem Trisha! That is a question I have too


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Re. General Gallieni: I've seen it grown massive, in our hot, dry summer/cool wet winter climate. It used to grow in our local specialist rose nursery's display garden before said garden was laid waste - completely obliterated - by prolonged drought and increasingly draconian water restrictions. I'm told they took cuttings from everything before they died, but it was a wonderful, living museum of old and species roses, from which I learnt so much, just by wandering its pathways in my own little world of bliss, absorbing everything... a crime that it was allowed to die, IMO.

Anyway, back to GG; It was well over head high - at least 7or 8ft from memory, and maybe around 6 ft wide... I'm guessing it had been left pretty much to its own devices for a few years. It was in full sun, and always appeared to be in perfect health, happy as Larry and blooming profusely. I then saw it had been severely cut back - maybe by about half, but I'm not sure how it fared after that. They used deep straw mulches, but fertilised I believe, with artificial rose fertiliser, which IMO may have contributed to the declining health of the entire garden, under stress conditions. But then, I'm not a rose expert.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I've been in the bay the last few days so the growing conditions aren't quite the same as back in So Cal, but I just saw a very reasonable and pretty Comtesse du Cayla. The flowers were a wonderful blend of pinks with apricot hints. I didn't get a picture sadly, but it was probably 4.5'-5' wide and 4' or so tall.

The General Gallieni I saw two days ago at the SF Botanical Garden was pruned like an HT and probably not representative of mature GGs that just get minor shaping and dead wood removal. The blooms were lovely and normal, but I've seen some monstrous pictures of GG from Australian HMF posters in particular. I would give it serious room.

The only thing I know about Sunset is that it's supposed to be a sport of Perle des Jardins -I looked it up after finding a local Santa Monica nursery that carried it at the turn of the 20th Century- but the rose in commerce today as Sunset is allegedly a different rose. The pictures on HMF aren't quite the orange, apricot hue described but more pink. PdJ isn't the most reputable Tea, but it is lovely and I hope Sunset works out for you, Kippy. I hadn't noticed Sunset on Burling's list, thanks for sharing that.

I'll let you know how General Schablikine does as it matures at my parent's house. It came as a gallon plant from RU during the Summer Sale. I have yet to see a bloom from it, but the plant has been clean in the month or two there. It has a pretty hefty spot allocated to it.

And yes, DO save room for Rosette Delizy. It's been a terrific rose for Coastal So Cal conditions just as Jeri recommended.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Jeri can probably clarify this better, but I remember a while ago mention was made there are at least two "clones" of Rosette Delizy which vary greatly in the intensity of the red coloring. Of course that can vary greatly between cooler and warmer climates, but even in hotter climates, the paler version never achieves the deep pigments the more intensely colored one does. I remember figuring should I wish to obtain this one again, I should beg cuttings from someone whose plant produces the deep pigments just to be sure I have the one I want. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

For this area, Rosette Delizy is magnificent. But, try for the Antique Rose Emporium clone, which we have. It has stronger color.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

This is the last picture I took of Rosette Delizy.

 photo IMG_2210_zps16644ae1.jpg

The plant is from ARE, but it only really takes on the coloring that Jeri's beautiful picture shows when the blooms are more open. RD has really been putting on growth of late and the blooms are getting more vivid in color as the plant matures. The color is lovely one way or the other, but it is nice when RD exhibits a wider band of pink tones.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I wonder if ARE has a different clone now, than it did 20 years ago . . .

I really think DH needs to do some cuttings, come fall, of our plant. OH, and I THINK the Sacramento City Cemetery has our 'Rosette Delizy.'

Jay, the color of my blooms are stronger, even in the bud stage -- except in scorching hot weather, when they do fade some.

(JERI)

This post was edited by jerijen on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 20:21


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kim, was ARE where you thought Rosette should be ordered from too?


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Jay I forgot, when I emailed Burling about what teas she might have available for the fall she said Mrs BR Cant and Sunset. And when she checked stock for the other roses, she said they were big enough to ship now. Christmas comes next week (again)


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I thought I should chime in to tell you that Le Pactole got VERY big in the Sacramento Cemetery Rose Garden. Heartbreakingly lovely blooms, though, and nice foliage.
Mons. Tillier also got very big (until a tree limb fell on it, but it's recovering), but in a more mannerly way - it was shapely and well-leaved (some Teas seem to be stingy in that regard.
Of course, Sacramento is hot and dry, and it may not be the same where you are. I love all the roses that have been mentioned on this thread!
Laura


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Le Pactole got very big here, too. It took a while to do it, but it does get big.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

how big is big?

yugo, VW bug, VW Bus or greyhound bus?


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

In the cemetery, it was 1.5 bugs wide by 1.7 bugs tall. I should see if I can find my old photos.

That Mons. Tillier next to it was a monster, too.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kippy -- Here's Mons. Tillier and Le Pactole in spring, 2007.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Beautiful! Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Is Marie van Houtte similar in size to Mons Tillier?

Thank you for the photos, they make the rose seem smaller than my mental picture


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

In MY garden, MvH was about the same height, but broader. But then, in MY garden, MT was nowhere NEAR that big.

Here's my MOns. Tillier at its height, when water was plentiful, and cheap.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Here's a picture I snapped today of a bloom from the same Rosette Delizy. It's past its prime, but it does show that this plant's blooms can take on much more pink/almost red.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Jerijen, what is the pink rose in your picture at the bottom of the list? The one with the rolled, pointed petals?


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

That is 'Mme. Lombard,' one of the most changeable roses I know. (Lacharme, France, 1878)

She has been found all over Northern California, and has been collected under many study names -- because she is often not recognized.

The Madam is a prolific bloomer, and a joy in the garden -- but if conditions permit her to do so, she can mildew just enough to annoy you. I forgive her that sin for the joy of the blooms.

If I was looking for roses that could tolerate some drought, and keep performing, this would be one of my first choices. She has survived through truly tough conditions.

Here is where my plant came from:


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Thanks! I already had one on order for the spring - a nice coincidence.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Jeri if you were to pick just one, would it be Mons Tillier or MvH?

I am looking forward to getting a madame Lombard


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

'Mons. Tillier," hands down.

WHY -- Because, for me, Tillier has a handsomer plant habit, and healthier foliage.

And, I really love the blooms, which like most Teas, can differ in color, and even a bit in form, as the year goes on.

(Below: 'Mons. Tillier,' w/"Roseville Noisette")


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

  • Posted by luxrosa s.f bay area, califo (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 11, 14 at 20:44

Hi ,, this is rather long... because I've taken notes on disease resistant roses , mostly Tea roses for they are my favorite class of rose, for more than 10 years, in no spray public gardens, and 3 no-spray private gardens, in California.
These Tea roses have performed well in the Morcam Amphitheatre of Roses' in Oakland, California, the garden is "no spray" by city law. I volunteered in the garden for a few years and kept a journal of 150+ rose cultivars and their health. Other notes are from caring for two local no-spray gardens in Richmond california, closer to the Bay where p.m, is more of a problem.

Disease resistant Teas; notes from 3 no spray gardens in the s.f. east bay area.
Lady Hillingdon, very clean foliage. In another garden closer to the s.f Bayay other plants of L.H. showed mild p.m. during most of the year, but one was planted against a wooden fence and watered with a sprinkler which left the foliage damp making it easy for p.m. to spread in cool weather and at night .
Le Pactole clean foliage.
Monsieur Tilliier' clean and along with Mrs. B.R. Cant by far the fastest growing own root Tea rosebushes.
Most of the other bands of Tea roses I've grown have taken 5+ years to grow to a mature size, (Le Pactole being the slowest to grow) while Monsieur and Mrs. took only two years to grow to be 6'+ ' tall.
Etoille de Lyon; mild p.m. during spring and autumn, I ignore it as it does not affect bloom and is not heavy enough to detract from the beauty of the bush and bloom.
Marie Van Houtte very clean.
Comtesse du Cayla. China-Tea. mild p.m. in spring an autumn, disease resistant the rest of the year.
Le Vesuve China-Tea very disease resistant most of the year. a wonderful rose, very rapid re-bloom with attractive foliage. smoky fragrance, makes me wonder if it was named after Vesuvius?
Souvenir de Victor Hugo only mild p.m..
Rubens: only mild p.m. but It \does bother me that the blooms never open fully, it keeps me in a state of mild apprehension.

Reve d'Or' Tea-Noisette grown as a self standing bush of c. 5 and 1/2 feet tall by the same width: very clean and outstandingly beautiful especially in filtered shade allowing the color to be more saturated.

In my neighbors no spray garden, closer to the s.f. Bay where conditions are worse for the growth of p.m.:
Tea-Noisette: Crespescule mild pm.. usually clean most of the year. If it isn't well fed with good soil and fertilizer the blooms can appear sub-standard, the roses on well fed bushes are far superior, with more petals and a shapelier bloom form. Nice fragrant.
Mme. Lombard; often is covered with a light layer of p.m. but there is never any defoliation, or loss of bloom production from foliage disease.
cl. Devoniensis: a little worse than Mme. Lombard for p.m.
Alliance Franco Russe was given away to a gardener in a dryer microclimate (walnut creek, ca) because the young plant was thickly covered with pm. I saw an A F-R in Oakland that was a mature plant of c. 8' by 8' growing in a property that had been deserted for 5+ years, it never was irrigated and we get 3-4 months of consecutive drought in summer, and the foliage was clean or nearly so all through the growing season.. When I saw a budded plant for sale at the OLd Rose Celebration this year I snatched it up for 5 bucks!

Tea roses that are disease resistant
In my no-spray garden, closer to the san francisco bay where conditions are even worse for the growth of powdery mildew:
Mme. Berkeley is the most disease resistant Tea in my garden.
Westside Road Cream Tea, very disease resistant. a wonderful white Tea,
Monsieur Tillier, very d.r..
Clementina Carboinieri rarely shows any p.m. and its foliage is a wonderful contrast, blue-green, against the colorful blooms which arel the color of a tropical fruit punch; rich pink, apricot, gold, and the hue of orange juice flushing through all as the bloom matures. Luannes is more than 8' tall, mines still a baby.
Souvenir de la Pierre Notting: light p.m. and the blooms hang on the bush a long time with the outer row of petals crumpled and brown, I prefer Etoille de Lyon for its fragrance.
Rosette Delizy, squeaky clean most of the year.
Celine Forestier Tea-Noisette, light p.m. easy to ignore.
Marachel Niel' T-N . light p.m. (weak on its own roots, mine gave up the ghost last year after I pampered it for 3 years) I love it so much I was going to learn how to graft roses to graft it on rootstock, but it didn't leave me even enough for chips. sigh. I adore that rose.
climbing Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria. I list this because it was sold as a Tea-Noisette long ago and it is evergreen in my garden, of all the Tea-Noisettes I've grown the only one to never lose its leaves in winter.
Reve d'Or very clean when mature.
Mme. Franziska Kruger; light p.m., when foliage is damp from irrigation or rain.
Mrs. Dudley Cross; very disease resistant, a beautiful Tea rose.
Le Pactole very clean. Many Teas grown from a band size as own root plants, can take 2 or 3 years to show the full beauty of the bloom and bush, this is one. I almost gave up on it, but in its 3+ year in my garden proved to show it to have an "exquisitely delicate" style of bloom. An exquisite beauty, deserves the name of "The Goldmine" though mine blooms more usually white, than lemon-gold.

Tea I wish I had;' Anna Olivier' I asked a woman where she got her bouquet of Anna Olivier that she was putting in a vase at the Old Rose Celebration a few years ago and she said "There' s a bush growing by the highway near Santa Cruz" Never irrigated, and the foliage was clean of disease.
The most heavily perfumed Tea rose I've ever put my nose to.

Mild p.m. if foliage is sprayed with water:
Lamarque' otherwise quite clean as a mature bush.
Mme. Antoine Mari : my neighbor grows hers in partial shade where it gets covered in moderate p.m. most of the year but doesn't defoliate or lessen in bloom production:
I grow mine in full sun, where p.m. is much less of a problem
Alexander Hill Gray; mild p.m. as a young plant.


Too much p.m. to recommend under the same conditions;
The absolute worst two for p.m..in my no spray garden in Oakland, ca;
1. Ducher , had more than 70% defoliaton from P.M. and never produced more than a half dozen roses at a time and was shovel pruned, a much more healthier choice for resistance for p.m is W.R.C.T. it grows to be c. 4 and 1/2 feet tall by about the same width and has a delicious fragrance.
2. Georgetown Tea defoliated from p.m. and never produced more than 3 roses.
These are covered with p.m. most of the year, but do not defoliate and bloom production is not affected. The foliage does appear as though someone frosted these plants with icing. .
Mutabilis
Mme. Alfred Carriere

Good luck,
Luxrosa


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Wow thank you Lux!

Printed that list out and clipped it too.

How is your Alliance Franco Russe doing? I look at that rose every time I consider options on Rogue Valleys website just wondering if it even survives here or just for other people.

Do any of you think there are some of the teas that just do better budded than own root? Which?


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Not to open the "discussion" as to which is more "natural" or "desirable" a plant shape between budded v. own root; nor to trigger the debate about which is longer lived or more "naturally performing", as there ARE differences and some of them are improvements as budded v. own root.. You mentioned you've been unsuccessful rooting Teas there, Kippy. But, you HAVE been able to root other roses and you very likely will be able to root Pink Clouds as well as other types of stocks. I'm certain you will be successful chip budding, given any practice. You are intuitive, observant and completely capable. What I would seriously suggest is, at the minimum, start your Teas and other harder to root types as budded plants. Once they're up and running, you can decide to keep them budded or root them for your own garden, using the budded ones as gifts or even planted at some of the rental properties.

For an example, most of us have seen how slowly Teas tend to grow as new, own root plants. My Moser Striped grows between Secret's Out and where you and I dug Aptos out of the ground, under the walnut where it gets a bit of shade. This is the new growth so far this summer.
DSCN9762
DSCN9761
.
DSCN9759
DSCN9758
DSCN9756
That's four stems, with four to seven buds per stem. Taking cuttings would require the removal of all of that growth with all the foliage (food producing tissue) and wood (nutrient storing tissue) with no guaranty of success. For most of us, each stem would provide one, perhaps two cuttings each and leave the plant set back where it was at the beginning of this summer.

Contrast it with this. These Pink Clouds stems were wrapped and rooted January, 2014. Pink Clouds is MUCH easier and faster to root than Moser Striped. I know, I've done it. These buds were inserted June 14, 2014. One maiden (first growth of a newly budded plant) is forming a flower bud. No, I am not going to disbud it. Reading the Victorian "rose bibles", supposedly the maiden bloom of a newly budded plant is often the best the variety can produce. I want to see what the best of Moser Striped looks like. Once I do, I will disbud it until it produces the plant I want.

.
DSCN9738
DSCN9737

Each of those previous stems contains four to seven buds. That is the potential for generating four to seven individual plants from EACH stem. However, the budded plants out front were created from buds I harvested from the own root Moser Striped plant without cutting any material off the plant. I laid on the ground with my single edged razor blade and a cup of water, slicing out the buds I wanted to use, leaving all the other wood, leaves and buds on the mother plant. You can't do that taking cuttings.

You can use one bud per stock, or multiples if you want to both hedge your bet for success as well as produce a fuller plant, faster. If nothing else, once there is a budded plant of it, there will be many more cuttings available, faster than there would be with only the own root plant. If you use a stock known to not express symptoms of any virus, whether it's an indexed type or one which has been maintained as clean as possible for its life, such as Pink Clouds, your chances of infecting the budded rose (as if these older types which have been passed around from one producer to the next, usually budded, for the past century actually stand a chance of NOT being infected) are every bit as good as rooting cuttings of the rose.

So, since you haven't been able to root Teas, and since they push a whole lot faster budded, and since you can harvest buds from a plant without removing lengths of canes, and since you can literally visit someone's garden with small containers of water which you can seal for travel to harvest buds or damp toweling to wrap harvested bud wood, you would be able to visit friends who grow what you want, collect what you want to grow and go home to produce the plants you want for your gardens. Seems like a win-win to me. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kim, you read my mind on trying to bud teas to rootstock and once I have plenty of plant try to get a cutting to root. I did not realize that the buds could be harvested like you mentioned. I am at the point I hate to ask for a tea rose cutting because it is unlikely to take. That is why I have been looking at where I can buy the plant and then figure out what works to root

From the rootstock cuttings you gave me, I hope to have 2 sets of mother plants to put in the ground in 2 different locations plus have a back up. With extras to share or just use as rootstock, I do have a friends son with cloning experience and an ag school degree who might just enjoy working with roses instead (and a with fence to cover)

It does seem like one of the classes of roses with many usually listed as unavailable are the teas.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Perfect! You could even set him up as a nursery to supply such things budded as a small business. Not that he could drag out his budding knife to "make his fortune", but I'm certain there is a market for budded teas, not only here, but in climates where they just don't have the "oomph" own root. Imagine getting such things into places like that "rose venue" (gag) out your way and real nurseries. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I am not so sure about him doing more than dabbling in roses, seems the other crop has more profit

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Wed, Aug 13, 14 at 2:20


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

OOOOKKKKK.... well, they might make a good cover? LOL! Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

What a week. I am always thinking ahead a project or two so I have time to collect what I need, watch for sales, etc. I had planned on dealing with the old water line issue this winter after some rain and when the soil is still nice and soft (and easy to dig) I have one garden bed to do some work in, a couple of fence lines to adjust (easier than it sound because this is just fence to keep hens out) and one small section do deal with, after the tea garden of course. Considering all the work I have done, this is minor. The fence lines need to move because I want to run my water lines there rather than out along the property fence lines where they are now.

We rarely water our old citrus trees, but often about this time of year they are screaming at us "hey bring that hose over here" But oddly this year, only two were doing that. One is in the main garden so it gets water consistently...but that other one...hmm must be looking good because the hose bib is just up the hill a couple of yards. Oh no...it is because the "T" rusted out and finally made a big enough hole to blow out. Thank goodness for that shut off we use. But now this means we have 0 irrigation water other than one 1920's hose bib on the back of the house.

So a fun day of gluing and running pvc lines, with lots of new shut offs sort of where I wanted them found me finishing up after dark at moms (she was not making things easier) and what could happen next? How about shocking the skunks that visit? Thankfully they did not spray me, but I must have surprised them in the dark that night. And they sprayed a couple of yards away.

The broken part of the line is still broken, but at least I can water the veggies that remain, the baby fruit trees and the roses. PVC to hose to hose to the house bib...lol

Ugh (plus work issues this week too)

So, back to more fun things to think about.

With the big tea row, I would like to put Salvia Greggii on the dry bank offset with the teas, any ones you think would look better with softer colored Teas? I checked today and they have 2 different purple shades plus a pinkish one. I think I would like the pink but that will be less contrast than mixing in the purples and mom does like the purples.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kippy, we have every color of salvia greggii and its close kin that we could find. Several lovely purples, and a massive Clevelandia, in a heavenly shade of blue.

None of them fight each other, nor to they clash with the surrounding Teas and Noisettes.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I've planted several gregiis the last two years myself. I've found them to be quickly rewarding, front of the border shrubs. One is basically apricot, a few hot pinks, a light pink, and two purples. I planted the majority as part of a very maintenance light area of my parents' front yard. 'Mesa Azure' has been excellent, 'Berkeley Barb' quite good, and the latest I can recall the name of is "Flower Child." It's a bit too soon to speak on FC and the apricot variety though as they are recent additions. 'Mesa Azure' is close to my Sydonie and it's a terrific combo.

I too have a Clevlandii hybrid (probably 'Allen Chickering') in the vicinity of a tea. Just two days ago I planted Lady Hillingdon "next" to it. There's plenty of space between them occupied by filler for now, but when mature they should look terrific. Lady Hillingdon came as a band from Burling in the Spring and it was getting root bound in its two gallon container so I opted to plant it without any five gallon containers on hand. I remember you mentioning your Lady Hillingdon was somewhat stagnant in its growth, Kippy. I hope that turns around!

Jay

This post was edited by ArbutusOmnedo on Sat, Aug 16, 14 at 23:56


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kippy,
I'm coming late to this thread, but I think what you are doing is fascinating, and I want to follow your project closely. I toy with the idea of growing only teas and noisettes -- the only one I have is Marie Van Houtte, and she is just spectacular. Grows every which way, easy to train on a trellis, and very, very heat-resistant. When HTs fry, Marie just keeps on smiling.
The bloom in this picture was actually its first bloom of the year, and the only completely white one. Recently they've been cream-pink, yellow undersides, exquisite. Yes, I know a lot of teas share these colors, but for an all-around, fast-growing, repeat-blooming rose, Marie has a great deal to offer.
Now to check out Purpurea -- I have a shady spot for it.
Sylvia


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

In my coastal Ventura Co garden, Marie van Houtte was a vigorous-grower, disease-free, and bloomed in shades of yellow-pink-white.

In dank periods, she would fail to open. But if you removed the [rather stiff] guard petals, the blooms would then open normally.

And, if picked tightly, she had a good vase life.

Rose show judges absolutely loathed her, as she never even pretended to aim for pin-point centers. Their loss.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Update:

I have made lists, spreadsheets, X's in the dirt.... and am still having a personal debate with my self who goes where but for now I am planning or have:

Baronne Prevost on one side of an entry arch (TBD) and am going to move Allister Stella Gray to climb this arch on the other side 'Sunset' from Burling (guessing the Climber) and then in some order making a large C shape:

Smiths Parish
Safrano
Mrs. BR Cant
Mme Antoine Mari
Rosette Delizy (ARE)

For the lower level (hope they are all the sizes listed):
G Nabonnand
Comtesse Festetics Hamilton
Anna Yung
General Gallieni
General Schabilkine

Noelle Nabonnand for a pillar at the lowest level.

I have a few other spaces open for other roses, but going to start with these.

Now to find a place for Marie Van Houtte, a big one :)


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

That's a wonderful list, Kippy! It's good to see you're planning on trying several teas I have no real knowledge of or expectations for in this area. I've definitely wondered how Noella Nabonnand and Anna Yung might fare here before.

You mentioned Mrs. Oakley Fisher in the other thread and I actually just added one to an ARE order of Mrs. Bosanquet. My mom will be getting the Mrs. Oakley Fisher, so I'll let you know how it does for her. Every plant I've seen has been just beautiful. It reminds me of a single version of Lady Hillingdon.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Ironically, Jay, Mrs. Oakley has tremendously more scent than Lady Hillingdon does. She's a gorgeous rose which I grew for thirty-plus years. I couldn't keep the mildew off her in Encino, so she went to a garden where she could strut her stuff and look as great as she should. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Hope she does well for you Jay.

My Lady Hillingdon has put out a 2 foot cane!! I decided, prior to the new cane, to leave her in her spot since she was doing better this summer and my cherry tree will be bigger next year for a bit more cool

Sorry to her about your experience Kim. Do you think it is just too dry here?


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I think with the rapidly decreasing ground water that's a good possibility, Kippy. Traditionally, you wouldn't think Encino would be drier than Newhall, but it sure seems to be. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

It's about the only single besides Lupe's Buttons and Mutabilis that I've shown her that she really lusted over. I'll tell my mom to play around with the location in its container to see if there isn't a premium location for her, Kim. I hadn't seen mildew on any of the plants I've seen in person, but that obviously doesn't mean it's not potentially a problem here. I last caught it in the Fragrance Garden of the SF Botanical Garden a few weeks ago and it was quite fragrant.

Lady Hillingdon was slightly mildewy most of the time till I planted her. She's been very happy since going in the ground in a very sunny spot.

Jay


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

KIPPY -- See comments below.

Smiths Parish -- STAND BACK! Huge! But always in bloom.

Safrano -- Weakling, here

Mrs. BR Cant -- Grew indifferently for us.

Rosette Delizy (ARE) -- GREAT rose here!

For the lower level (hope they are all the sizes listed):
-- I WOULDN'T COUNT ON THAT!

G Nabonnand -- Plant of generous size, rather open, Blooms A LOT, Disease-free.

General Gallieni -- Still in a pot, poor guy. Totally disease-free.

Jeri


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

A really happy Gallieni in a "beachy" climate is a thing of real beauty! We used to see rich apricot surrounded by purple-brick burnishing at The Outdoor Room. Not surprising as this is where Rosette Delizy received her color change from. Those are two of the most dramatic Teas I've encountered. Love them! Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I agree, Kim. Remarkable roses, from the tail end of the Tea Rose Era. And Nabonnand roses seem to "specialize" in tremendous resistance to mildew and rust.

Jeri

BELOW: 'Gen. Gallieni' in cool weather.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I guess we will see how those last 6 Nabonnand roses do here now and just how big too.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Jeri, what was the Tea Jim grew in front of his home in that upper terrace that ate the whole front garden? I've browsed his list on HMF and can't find it. I remember him showing it to me (repeatedly!) and complaining how it was SUPPOSED to be a third the size it wanted to be. I always teased him he should find somewhere else to "hide the bodies". Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I have not a clue. But of course, so many of the Teas will eat the world, if you let them.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

It was supposed to be "red" something, but he always questioned that identification. And, believe me, he didn't "let" it! Like the vinca from up hill, he battled it until nearly his last days. Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Although we are new to growing roses and this forum,the wealth of knowledge that my husband and I have seen in the past couple of weeks on this forum Is amazing!!!!


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

Kim, might the red Tea in question have been 'Niles Cochet'??


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

It sounds familiar, Jeri, but that one isn't on his list. It probably is and the list is in error.

You're right, Maria. There is an enormous amount of knowledge on this forum. Imagine how many plants we're all had to kill to learn so much about them! LOL! Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I am glad there is no record of the numbers of plants we have bought, planted, and then removed and trashed. Darn good thing they're compostable, once ground up.

We went through the stubborn period, in which we insisted upon trying to grow things we were told by others would not grow here. (The others were right.)

We went through the period in which we had to have the newest introductions. Particularly the newest Austins.

It's all been a hell of a learning experience.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

I think the issue that I am having is seeing a tiny band, looking at a couple of the 2 year old teas and not thinking, oh ya....that will fit the space.

On that note, Lady Hillingdon has put out a 24" cane and a couple of blooms. Crepuscule is still about a foot tall, but looking fairly happy. And Safrano has gone from sitting and doing nothing since mid June to exploding with new red growth.

Still no planting holes, but lots of fence post holes are in and some garden wire fencing, should keep mom from scaling the berms and funnel the access to areas we can keep an eye on.

Since I started this idea, the use of the garden space has flipped. What was going to be open for the chickens to free range and the chicken free zone are now opposite. I now have some roses to protect from chickens, but even more I do not have to worry about.

Anyway, another few Sundays and the fencing/arches/gates will be done and painted and ready to put those roses in for that first real rain....when ever that is.


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

"It's all been a hell of a learning experience."

The rose and nursery industries thank you! Kim


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

The tea garden posts just need one more coat of stain and the wire goes


 o
RE: A Tea Garden

The other project the fence to keep the chickens safe and still be able to free range


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Antique Roses Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here