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Leaf-pointed Sepals

Posted by vmr423 z8b SC (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 19:42

I was glad to see leaf-pointed sepals mentioned in the Rose ID article by Mrs. Keays since I had just the day before noticed that the bud on one of my rescue plants had leafy structures on it, and was wondering if that was normal.

I then happened to notice that one of my tea roses had another (his 4th!) bud, and it also looked a bit leafy.

So, I know that Teas can have leaf-pointed sepals, and I noticed some in photos of red China roses that I was looking at last night, so there are at least 2 classes that have 'em.

My question is, are there only certain types of roses that have these leafy sepals, or do most roses do this? If only certain classes do this, that will help me narrow down my ID.
Of course, if the bud doesn't get eaten, I may soon have a flower to look at, but in the meantime...

Leaf-pointed sepal on bud of mystery rose

Leaf-pointed sepal on 'Souv. de Victor Hugo'

Thanks for any help you can provide,
Virginia

PS The second bud belongs to 'Souvenir de Victor Hugo', in case anyone was wondering...

This post was edited by vmr423 on Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 19:49


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 20:19

I notice this feature on my HTs, but being as all but one of the HTs I have are rather related (fragrant dark-red or crimson HTs, descended from 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' and/or 'Night'), I can't say whether or not it is common to all, or even most, HTs. But considering that almost all repeat-blooming modern roses descend from Chinas and/or Teas, perhaps the feature is rather common.

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 20:22


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Thanks, Christopher-

It does seem that cross-breeding rather complicates the issue, huh? Probably, then, this isn't a sufficiently rare trait to narrow things down at the beginning of an ID check...

I'm trying to learn a bit about how to 'read' plants since I've got quite a few rose plants that I either rescued or rooted over the past few months; the "cost" of these free plants is not knowing what I've got.

So, I'm looking for clues, but I guess this won't help much as a starting-off point. If I'm able to make headway with other distinguishing features, though, the appearance of the buds could help me narrow down my options...

Thanks again,
Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

  • Posted by AquaEyes 7 New Brunswick, NJ (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 28, 14 at 21:27

From what I've been learning about rose identification, it's not about individual traits being unique so much as it's the particular suite of traits that becomes a rose's fingerprints. Because most garden roses are conglomerations of species, you'll find individual cultivars with their own unique combinations of traits from different species. So take the leafy sepals trait, for example. If you find an unidentified rose with leafy sepals, that alone may not say much. But that single trait may be the most obvious difference between two otherwise similar cultivars, one of which lacks the trait.

:-)

~Christopher


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

I was shocked, years ago, when we were still exhibiting roses, to see exhibitors cutting these decorative, or FOLIATE sepals off!

Because I really LOVE this in a rose, it seemed to me to be vandalism, but I was assured that judges would mark a rose down for it.

See here a bud of the Found rose, probable Hybrid Perpetual, "Old Town Novato."

What's not to like?

(Jeri)


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Many roses of many various types can express that type of sepal foliation. It's one of the traits I select seedlings for. Many species don't exhibit that trait, but hybrids of them can. Kim


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I suppose you understand why I was shocked to learn that it could be undesirable in exhibition.


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Yes, I first noticed that trait on Old Town Novato and I was delighted.

Anne


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I suppose most exhibitions are looking for something other than unadulterated reality. Would a dog at a dog show genuinely look less beautiful if his tail weren't docked and his ears clipped?

I have to agree that my preference would be for what is the rose's genuine appearance. The leaves on the seapals are especially ornamental and showy, so it's a bit ironic that they aren't welcome at a show.

Though they both have leafy sepals, the buds I posted photos of look distinct from each other, and your photo shows another, clearly different bud. Even though we only know the registration name of one of the roses, it's pretty clear that these are 3 different varieties...

Hopefully this distinctness will eventually help with an ID if I can narrow down my choices to a few likely varieties, and I can then compare buds, etc. in person or via photos.

Of course, if any of these roses turns out to be one of those red Chinas, I'm not going to risk my mental health by trying to pursue the ID question further...

Thanks,
Virginia


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Kim, you say that the leafy sepals is a trait you select for in seedlings... is that because you like the look of it, or because rose buyers prefer that look? Or do leafy sepals actually confer some sort of non-ornamental advantage that I'm not aware of? (Remember, it's later here than it is on your coast!)

Obviously, I haven't given the subject much thought, since I only realized quite recently that rosebuds might actually be leafy, but I do like the look- especially the almost baroque ornamentation of that bud of Jeri's...

Virginia


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Hi Virginia, I just like the leafier sepals. I'm finding some interesting results crossing them with the crested types. The photo Jeri shared is more of a cresting. I like their elegance. Kim


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I agree about the elegance of leaf-pointed sepals. Crossing them with crested types sounds lovely. I wish I had a more intimate knowledge of all these rose details. A friend once pointed out some roses that had scented buds that weren't mosses. It had to do with a certain breeding line or something. I would so like to get these things properly into my head.


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Christopher, I don't have much practice with attempting rose ID's yet, but it makes sense that most roses wouldn't have one clearly unique- or even unusual- identifying trait.

I've been trying to figure out rose classes, and thus far it seems a very arbitrary and arcane "system". Some classes being based on a rose's appearance, some on ancestry, and some just don't make sense to me at all- it turns out that Hybrid Musks have very little- or no- R. moschata ancestry?

I would love to know something more about the history of how roses came to be grouped the way they are, so if you- or anyone else- can recommend some good reading material on the topic, I'd be grateful.

Thanks,
Virginia


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Kim, I can understand why you like them. I'm not sure I understand the difference, though, between a leafed sepal and one that's crested? Is a crested sepal a type of leaf-pointed sepal with one leafy structure held over the top of the bud?

I expected to find some explanation at HMF looking at the 'Chapeau de Napoleon' entry, but if it's there, I missed it. Google let me down on this, as well...

Thanks,
Virginia


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Note, also, that when you see elaborate sepals on one plant, the characteristic may not dependably be found on other plants of the same rose.

For what ever reasons, Cass Bernstein rarely sees these sepals on HER plants of "Old Town Novato." I frequently do. So, it is possible that some clones do it, and others not.

OR it is possible that environmental conditions are a factor.

(JERI)


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Hi Virginia, Ralph Moore theorized that cresting was part of the "mossing factor" expression. You find it on Old European Garden Roses and many modern roses closely related to them. The expression of 'cresting' is quite variable, as Jeri stated, and it appears to me to be more season/weather related. Cooler, damper spring-like weather and conditions draw out the expression better than hotter, drier types when the plant is growing faster, or when it is struggling to remain alive at the expense of fully demonstrating all of its genetic possibilities. For those selected primarily for that trait, it can vary quite a bit, but is most often there no matter what the conditions.

"Leafy" types are those where one, two, sometimes three sepals are elongated, resembling leaves. Even then, they are usually narrower, more "strap-like". Portlands and many HPs demonstrate this type as well as quite a few moderns. Some Hybrid Arkansanas show this often, too. I frequently see it in Basye's Legacy hybrids.

"Cresting" in its purest form, appears on Crested Moss and its close Moore hybrids. Instead of the strap-like growths, cresting is "frillier", it has "branches", if that makes sense.Take a look at these:

Crested Jewel, the bridge across which most modern crested types came.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.11041

Crested Sweetheart

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.1370.0

C-04

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.59172.0

Mr. Moore raised quite a few hybrids demonstrating pretty extreme cresting. Unfortunately, most were pretty miserable plants, but better things are coming from them.

These first two are not related to the Crested Moss line, but show nice sepals. They are some of the later results of mining the strap-like types.

DSCN9089
pretty lady x lynnie (14)

This is one of the later Crested Moss descendents I'm using with the strap-like line to see "what if".
DSCN8773

These are taking a bit longer than focusing solely on the sepals as I am also taking the healthy, dwarf, bushy plant character into account as I progress. The prior crested hybrids either had far too much vigor, producing rangy, semi climbing plants which are very susceptible to black spot and mildew, or they just refused to grow, and contracted the fungal issues. Kim


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" The expression of 'cresting' is quite variable, as Jeri stated, and it appears to me to be more season/weather related. "

Which brings to mind "Dawn Crest" (below) -- which in my garden is pretty darned crested . . . just as my OTN buds are pretty darned foliated. Maybe my crummy conditions encourage it.

(JERI)


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Dawn Crest is fairly stable its expression of the trait, in my experience. But, it's no where near AS crested as many other of his seedlings, which is why he resisted introducing it. I wish the seedling he intended to introduce had survived the Oregon winter. I sent rescued pieces of it to Paul Barden who got one plant to grow from it, but this past winter knocked it off. Now the lot has been leveled, we'll never be able to demonstrate what he saw, he liked more. As a plant, the chosen one was a DAWG, but those sepals were pretty outrageous. Kim


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I'm happy to have the better PLANT.


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Absolutely! But, when your focus is quite narrow and your obsession is that goal, you throw out a lot of good things to achieve it. Unfortunately. Kim


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I understand. But here sits a climbing rose of excellent vigor, with dark green, disease-free foliage, and rapid repeat bloom ... bearing big sprays of small fragrant blooms -- which emerge from cunningly-crested buds.

There's such a thing as serendipity. Whether it was what you were pursuing, or not.

I'm just grateful -- thankful -- that, having lost it once, I was able to get it back.


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If you could have seen some of the things Joe Winchell trashed to preserve the dreck he released, you would cry...KIm


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What a pretty bush Jeri!


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Jeri, I was wondering if the trait were variable since I don't recall seeing the leafy sepals on the first SDVH buds, but later (after much rain and hot temps), I'm seeing it on two of his buds. Of course, it's still a young plant yet, so that could be the reason the first buds were leafless- I dunno. If we both survive until cooler temps roll around, I'll keep an eye out for changes, but I wonder if humidity is the key?

That 'Dawn Crest' is something else. I'm glad you got it back.

Virginia


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I doubt it, Virginia. Usually, we have little humidity here, though right now it's brutal due to a weather front which won't go home. Most crested and leafy types demonstrate the traits as long as there is enough ground water and the temps aren't extreme, causing them to bolt. Kim


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Which could be a factor in DC's success here. MOST of the time, temps here are not extreme, and it was always well-watered. And, of course, humidity ain't us. (In the "old normal.")

I observed that as the plant grew more mature, the cresting became more pronounced.

Yes, Kim -- I well remember some of the dreck Joe released. I grew several of them. Alas.

Did I mention that Dawn Crest is fragrant? ;-)


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Marvelously fragrant! Sweet, penetrating and lasting well in decent weather. Kim


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I wanted to thank you, Kim, for the detailed response to my question about leafed vs crested sepals. I think I get it, although you rose breeders are trying to blur the lines with both straps AND crests...

Those photos of C-04 are pretty amazing, even if the plant itself ain't so very wonderful... I can see why you might want to work with it.

I guess that I either didn't notice the leafy sepals on the earlier buds of SdVH or they were less pronounced.

Two of my mystery roses have leaf-sepaled buds now, and if it weren't pouring rain (again), I'd probably be out in the yard, shouting "Bloom, dammit!" It's funny how growing camellias seems to promote patience, but roses seem to be more about instant gratification.

This weather makes it hard to believe in water shortages elsewhere. "It seems like it's rainin' all over the world", to borrow a line from Brook Benton...

Thanks again,
Virginia


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You're welcome, Virginia! Of course, "strap-like" sepals are not a recognized type like crested ones are, but they do appear to be something which can be bred and selected for, so eventually they may become part of what attracts folks to particular roses. Blurring the lines between the two types just may result in something quite attractive. As long as the rest of the organism is improved, that will be a great achievement. None of us need "more of the same". C04 does have pretty amazing sepals. I've succeeded in budding it to Pink Clouds in hopes of being able to play more with it, but it is far from fertile, something Mr. Moore discovered working with moss roses in general. A few seedlings have resulted and most are really pretty awful plants, but there is always hope! I believe creating something which already possesses the ability to express and transmit the cresting on a good plant, then adding C04 to it might help. That's the direction I'm headed, at least.

And, I thought I was the only one out begging the roses, like the lady in the old Mervyn's commercials at the glass doors.."Open! Open! Open!"! I'm envious of your rain. The ground is so dry, it seems no matter how much water I pour on it, no improvements result. The sun is laser brutal and the plants definitely show it. For the first time growing roses, I am now witnessing roses not being able to handle more then four to six hours of sun. These are the same varieites which previously endured eight-plus hours in the old garden. Not today's sun with today's dry soil...To borrow from The Oakridge Boys, "Where the sun always shines, there's a desert below, it takes a little rain..." Kim


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If I could, I would gladly redirect a few of these rainclouds and send them your direction- that photo breaks my heart a little.

Are you working mostly with non-mossing crested types? Or also with Mosses? I was intrigued to read at HMF that 'Crested Moss' and 'Crested Provence' apparently look alike, but are genetically dissimilar. And yet, each developed that cresting trait...

I wonder if 'CP' is any more generous with pollen than 'CM'? I also wonder how you'd know which rose you had without genetic testing...

When is the traditional time of year for y'all to start getting some rainfall? I hope you get some moisture soon...

Virginia


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We could, in a normal year, see some rain as early as November, and it could, in a normal year, continue well into April.

But we have not been having "normal" years, and we have not been having rain.

Some parts of the state get random rainfall at other times, but where I am, on the Ventura County coast, you would be quite safe planning an outdoor wedding at any time from late May through very early October.

How nostalgically I remember the early 1960's, when I habitually walked to classes barefoot, because my feet would dry, and my shoes would not. I would so love to have those rainy days back again.


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I feel safe in responding, "Thank you, Virginia, WE appreciate the sentiments!" I remember years walking to and from school in near flood conditions in September, way back when Sam Yorty, the LA Mayor, installed "Mayor Sam's Flood Control System" so it only flooded when it rained. I also remember years when the heavy rains continued well into April, preventing me from visiting my old Newhall garden for weeks on end as it was simply WAY too wet to walk or drive down the fire road to get to it. One year, in particular, there were forty inches of rain recorded in that canyon. The "norm" was slightly over fifteen inches.

The only moss I currently grow, hence work with, is Kim Rupert. Guess why.. I don't bother growing Crested Moss, nor any of its once flowering offspring as they won't flower here. I preserved Queen Crest, the Queen Elizabeth X Crested Moss hybrid for a long time, and never saw one flower after moving to zone 10 from the old, colder zone, so I passed it along to a friend who has her second garden up in the mountains above Wrightwood where it is SUPPOSED to snow. I have two of Mr. Moore's hybrids which are at least two generations away from Crested Moss, so they flower and even repeat here, but aren't great plants. Fortunately, my April Mooncrest, a cross between Buck's April Moon and Mr. Moore's MORcrest, is healthy, crested, scented and continuous flowering and has provided me with a few crested improvements. Some mates I select for it yield some pretty results, others are OK, but no cigars.

Who knows which between Crested Moss and Crested Provence has been used? You obtain what is credited with being the rose, trusting in the previous identification and plod along until you get some positive results. Without having seen both and being able to study and grow them, how would anyone honestly know the difference, without, as you suggested, having them tested? Then, you have to hope those doing the testing have verified identifications against which to test them. That is often a problem with DNA testing. You can usually determine if two things are similar enough to be the same, but without a verified identity, you can't state which is which.

Mr. Moore was raised with many of these roses in his mother's and grandmother's gardens and grew quite a few from plants propagated from their plants. If something was mis identified, it had to have been a very early mistake for him to have known it for probably nine-plus decades as the wrong name. Not that it wouldn't be impossible, but not very probable. Whatever he used, after having grown a number of his hybrids and observed them all over many visits to Sequoia over twenty-five plus years, I'm heartened that my results from his work have already produced better garden plants, perhaps with not quite as extreme cresting as some of his express, than his efforts yielded. It's kind of ironic..his admonition for years was, "create a good plant first. It's easy to hang a pretty flower on it later." Yet, concerning his crested work, the sepals continued being the obsession, with little to show in the "good plant" department. Thank you! Kim


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Even a genius may have a blind spot. :-)


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The bigger the genius, the bigger the blind spot! Kim


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It's too soon to say how it is as a garden plant, but Treasure Trail is already pushing out new buds three weeks after last blooming. It may be the rare Moss that is floriferous and healthy in this climate. I'm certainly hoping it will be!

I'm also hoping it might self-set some hips that I can try to get some mossy seedlings from next year.

As far as leaf-pointed sepals, I've noticed that trait on a variety of classes (at least HTs, HPs, Portlands, and Floribundas). Sydonie might exhibit the best cases of leafy sepals of any rose I grow. I love its fat buds with long, leafy sepals.

Jay


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I don't know what El Nino may bring, or even if this will be an El Nino year for sure, but I hope you at least get your "normal" (old normal, not new normal) amount of precipitation this fall/ winter.

Even with the mosquitos, mushrooms and mildew out in the yard (judging from the water collected in the wheelbarrow and elsewhere, we got at least 5" of rain yesterday), I would be pretty lost without our summer rains. When we've had dry spells here in summers past, pretty much everything shut down until the rain resumed.

Virginia


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We're all hoping for that, Virginia -- but most thoughtful people are at the same time contemplating choices to be made, should we have another dry winter.

In my area of Southern California, still largely agricultural, our water has not been imported from NoCal, or from the Colorado River. But for small amounts "blended" for taste and clarity, our water comes from subterranean aqueducts, and groundwater basins.

Now, those sources are severely threatened by over-use and continuing development. Without rain, it doesn't look like we have many viable choices.

(JERI)


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Kind of in the same boat as Jeri, I think they said we got less than 5% after paying a fortune to get on the state water program. Most of our water comes from a lake behind us and through the mountain by a pipe. The lake level has dropped so much they now have to add a $$ pump system to get it to the water pipe. But my area has a lot of ground water.


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If I had thought about growing Mosses in Zone 10, I probably wouldn't have asked that question... I'm assuming they wouldn't be happy here, either, though I don't really know the chill requirements for various types of roses. And then, there are quite a few roses who apparently don't like to stick to the script, and grow where they aren't really expected to grow. Or vice versa.

I didn't realize that your namesake rose was a heat-tolerant Moss. In fact, I didn't know that there were any heat-tolerant Mosses. And it's striped. Hmmm... my rose wish list just grows and grows...

April Moon and April Mooncrest are both really attractive plants. If I take a drive up to Roses Unltd this fall, I especially want to check out their Buck Roses.

I'd be surprised if Mr Moore were the only person to disobey his own ground rules. I have yet to meet anyone who is completely free of inconsistencies and irrational quirks, and hope I never do...

I take your point about distinguishing between 'Crested Provence' and 'Crested Moss', I don't know how long they've been considered as identical, bit if it's been a while, I imagine any rose sold under either name would be suspect...

"There is nothing true anywhere; the true is nowhere to be seen; if you say you see the true, this seeing is not the true one." --Abraham Lincoln

Virginia


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I grew quite a few mosses in Zone 9b., Virginia. Waldtraut Neilsen, Deuil de Paul Fontaine (flowered like a floribunda!), Gabrielle Noyelle, Goethe, Madame de la Roche-Lambert, Blanche Moreau, Andrewsii, William Lobb all grew and flowered well. Many more "modern mosses" and Moore moss hybrids also grew and flowered well. Golden Moss, Black Boy and Blue Boy were disappointments because of scant flowering and heavy doses of diseases (mainly mildew and rust). Mildew is the absolute worst disease on mosses in the warmer, more arid climates out west. Despite anything ROYAT wrote about Deuil de Paul Fontaine "loosing vigor", that thing grew and flowered as well as any modern floribunda in that garden. I loved it!

I believe "chill hours" are off set, even negated by "heat hours". Many very cold hardy plants HATE long periods of arid heat, particularly Buck and Morden roses. Rust has been the worst offender with them. The only two mosses I still grow are Kim Rupert and MORjerry, which is Rugosa-Moss-Polyantha. But, yes, there are heat tolerant mosses, particularly Mr. Moore's moss hybrids. Lady Moss was gorgeous, I just didn't have room for her here so she went to a loving home. I have an acquaintance in Torrance, right on the coast south of here who grows many of his mosses quite successfully. She doesn't spray, either, and they all grow quite well in her garden, mostly in larger pots around her front hardscape and rear patio areas because of their sizes. Kim


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When I read the recent news about the Colorado River Basin's groundwater reserves, I thought of how that might affect a good many rose gardens west of the Rockies, includiing you SoCal folks...

Not such good news, especially since it seems that a lot of historic roses grown out there are not available elsewhere in the country.

Of course, continued drought conditions in the U.S. and other parts of the world have pretty serious implications on many levels, but I don't think that means that caring about rose preservation is shallow or frivolous.


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Carlin's Rhythm has those pretty sepals.

I am super curious to see what happens in my low cool zone this winter. I am thinking that I need to add a couple of higher chill hour fruit trees (plums I think) to see how they set. I have a feeling I have a lot more chill hours down there than at the top of the hill. It was such a warm winter that a few of the plums did not bloom or set more than a handful of fruit. Our giant shiro usually leaves the yard covered in a white snow of petals.


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Jay, I love the look of 'Sidonie' and of 'Treasure Trail', but didn't realize they were heat-tolerant. Or maybe they aren't? I don't recall whether you're in one of those mild summer areas, or not.

They both have nice-looking buds, I agree. And the flowers ain't too bad either.

Virginia


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Virginia - Summers here typically stay in the 70s. It's rare for temps to get past the low 80s being quite close to the coast. It hasn't been foggy here this summer and I haven't noticed as much mildew or rust on the roses. We never experience frosts here in the Winter so it's very temperate year round. Extreme heat is a rarity fortunately, but the lack of cold makes growing the once blooming mosses impossible. Treasure Trail will be a treasured rose of mine if it works out.

I've found Sydonie to be very worthy of garden space. HPs/Portlands generally have poor reputations here, but it has been disease free, vigorous, and all I could want in an old rose bloom save for the size of the blooms. It's in its first year, but only bands of Hybrid Musks and Boule de Neige have been as rapid in their growth.

Jay


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Jay, I really love the look of Sidonie's blooms- are you expecting larger blooms from her as the plant matures?

HMF says she is susceptible to BS, but that's probably not much of a problem in your area like it probably would be hereabouts.

I hope 'TT' works out well for you- it sounds like it's off to a promising start.

Now, I need to go look at HMF for all the Mosses that Kim grew in 9b.

Virginia


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Thanks, Kippy- 'Carlin's Rhythm' is yet another rose I hadn't heard of, but the photos of the buds at HMF are very pretty indeed. The flowers are also charming...

From the name, i was expecting one of the parent plants to be 'Rural Rhythm', but I like the actual story behind the name better than my supposition.

Virginia


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I love sepals! Can't imagine *fixing* them at a show, anymore than I can conceive of how cropping dogs' ears came to be part of some breeds' standards.

So much of a blossom's fragrance is from sepal glands--some roses express much more fragrance when you pet the sepals, than by smelling the petals--e.g. many Chinas.

I like old Omar Khayyam's especially:

Here is a link that might be useful: HMF Omar Khayyam sepals


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Aren't those beautiful? That elegance combined with the scent of the sepals and peduncles are two of the marvelous traits I adore about many of the older European Garden Roses. I wish more were tolerant of this climate and these conditions. Perhaps that's one reason I play with trying to recreate them in types that will cooperate here. This is one of the latest experiments to flower. It's a cross between the strap-type of Basye's Legacy offspring and a crested type. It's only a first result, so there is a long way to go in that direction, but it's showing both the strap type elongation as well as the "frilly" growths of the cresting. Kim


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Ooo, that's nice! They're making a beautiful frame for that bud.


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A beautiful frame for the bud, but they look long enough to also beautifully frame the flower once it's opened. Kewl!


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Thanks, Kim, for the info about heat-tolerant Mosses. I suppose my mileage might vary, but the jewel-tone colors of 'William Lobb' and 'Deuil de Paul' are especially tempting. Blooms like a Floribunda, huh?

I noticed that you speak of arid heat as cancelling out chill hours, but do you think that humid summers would have the same effect? Or is that a known unknown? I think it might be a challenge for me to try to find out...

BTW, the leafy sepaled bud whose photo is at the beginning of this thread has opened. And I didn't have to stand in the rain, yelling at it, either. Well, not too much...

Virginia


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bluegirl, I have to agree that Omar Khayyam has very elegant sepals. Do you grow him in your TX garden?

Thanks for the HMF link- love me some floral eye candy...

Virginia


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I expect (hope) the blooms will get to be at least 3" or so across. They've been more in the 2" to 2.5" range so far. By modern rose standards my expectations for Sydonie's bloom sizes are smaller, but it has a lot of qualities harder to find in modern roses.

Jay


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Congratulations, Virginia! How was the flower once it opened?

You're welcome! Yes, in that garden, Deuil de Paul Fontaine grew to about four by three feet and flowered all spring through fall. It honestly impressed me, but humidity was never an issue there, other than very early spring and very late fall. I have no idea how it will handle regular humidity.

How humid heat will affect chill hours is an unknown. I discovered that even when chill hours were met, performance didn't follow the "rules". In cooler, wetter years, trees would flower and fruit would set, but not as heavily as it should have. Once flowering OGRs didn't flower well, or even at all, even though they received what should have been sufficient hours of "chill". The only thing that made sense was the plants were reacting to the high, dry heat.

Ironically, a number of the same higher chill hour OGRs I grew in Newhall, a customer also grew in Pacific Palisades, on the bluff overlooking the Pacific. There, they rusted and mildewed badly and never received real "cold" as they did during winters in Newhall. They did receive much more fog and humidity, plus "spring" weather that lasted from late February all the way to August. The "heat" was up to fifty degrees cooler than the "heat" in Newhall, forty miles inland. The "cold" was most often fifteen to twenty degrees warmer, so the range of temperatures they received was actually quite narrow, most often within thirty degrees from one extreme to the other. Of course there were the occasional spikes, but they were the exception rather than the rule. At home, they could receive fifty degrees variation from the lowest temps at night to the highest daytime temps. From winter to summer, they could vary as much as eighty degrees. Those rusty, mildewy OGRs on the bluff over the ocean actually gave more flowers, more regularly than the ones at home. Flower quality wasn't really "good" in either location compared to how they SHOULD have looked, but there were, at least, flowers. The only thing that really explained the difference was temperature. Even with significantly increased water levels, the same roses in higher heat with greater extremes didn't flower where those in less extreme variations, did. Nothing else really made sense. Kim


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Hey, Virginia.

I had Omar a long time ago, from Pickerings. Then had my collection wiped out by a hurricane (lived in mid coastal TX region).
But I did get some of those beautiful, odd blooms with the wild sepals.

He's on my wish list again, & I have a standing order with Marissa at Greenmantle for him, but according to her, "it's a bear to root", so....
Pickerings hasn't listed it for awhile.

I find some of the old European roses irresistible, even though they aren't well adapted for my climate (deserty mid TX now). Back in the humid coastal climate, which might be closer to yours, some of the mosses that did well were Rene D'Anjou, Mme. Loise LeVeque, Mme. Del la Roch-Lambert.

I've got a few pot-pets now ordered from Vintage before they closed--Comtesse de Muranais is growing vigorously, Chapeau de Napoleon looks good & had a great flush last year Rene D'Anjou looks good & has flowered several times. Have Captain John Ingram, Henri Martin--growing well, but not bloomed yet.

Mouseau de Japon has gotten big--it's in the ground & even produced a sucker. A once-bloomer, but its moss is extraordinary--the whole canes are fuzzy with thick wonderful smelling moss. It loves it here, compared to my old zone, where it was a sulky, one skinny caned wonder.

I'm trying several Albas: Semi Plena from Pickerings, Celestial from a swap--& am surprised that they look well, so far. Love those bluish leaves.

Got Tuscany Suberb from another GW friend & I need to put it in the ground it's gotten so big. It will be fun to see what they do next spring, especially if we get some rain this winter.

Not many of the damasks have done well for me in either climate, haven't tried any centifolias.

Bourbons & HPs seem to do very well--maybe because less black spot pressure? I grew some in the old zone & though many got a lot of mildew & BS during the spring, they often recovered for good repeat flushes. Souvenir del la Malmaison was great, is here, too.

Haven't sprayed in 25 yrs.
I still like to try some of the oldies & love the romance of the them.


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Kim, the rescue rose has a charming orangey pink first flower, though no telling if this is what later flowers will also look like...

Here are some photos that I also posted to the Roses Forum as a follow-up to my earlier post there:

Rescue Rose foliage

Early leafage- the first two photos were taken mid-July...

Rescue Rose plant in 1-g pot

Here is a shot of the whole plant in a 1-g pot- it is still this shape, only with more foliage at the top and at the bottom, and none in between...

Rescue Rose bud with leafy sepals

I learn that rose buds can have leafy sepals...

Rescue Rose flower

Flower early Saturday- it was overcast, but this was taken in fairly decent light, and is a close approximation of the actual color.

Rescue Rose flower

The flower a bit further along...

Rescue Rose flower

The flower yesterday evening- the lighting was a bit dark for the last two photos, and makes the color look a bit bluer than it actually is- really I'd call it salmon pink or coral pink... Maybe it's a Pernetiana!!!
Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Jay, Sidonie's flowers are so lovely that it seems like their small scale would almost be a bonus...


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Kim, I am intrigued by your observations about chill hours. I have wondered if there is a connection between a plant's need for chill hours and the heat-tolerance of that plant. If I'm reading you right (and heaven knows, I may not be), you're talking about plants that are getting their required chill hours, but are still not blooming because they aren't sufficiently heat -tolerant?

Something else I've wondered about is the amount of light plants get at various latitudes, and if that affects a plant's ability to bloom/ fruit. Do roses, fruit trees, etc. that hail from higher latitudes get "cued" to bloom/ fruit by the more dramatic increase of daylight hours that occurs in areas closer to the poles than the equator? And is this a distinct factor from 'chill hours' and 'heat tolerance'?

It's all pretty much a moot point for me, since I'll strike out on all counts...

Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

This has been one of the most fascinating posts EVER. I'm going to have to come back and re-read it 3 or 4 (or 5!) more times, it is so dense with information and intelligent reasoning. I had a rose (Mlle. Jeanne Philippe) that had lovely leafy sepals. I didn't even know there was a term for them - I just thought they were the most elegant, decorative, and graceful sepals I had ever seen. They went so well with the rest of that plant, which was also elegant, etc., and which gave and gave and gave of its lovely blooms.
Now, of course, I have had the opportunity to see many roses with such sepals, but - again - have learned so much about them in this discussion. Thanks to all!
Laura


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

I'm sure the light duration and intensity play their parts, Virginia. Figuring out how much is required and how much is too much will take some time and experimentation. It may well be those plants which received their chill requirements weren't/aren't sufficiently heat tolerant. I know in many cases, even highly disease resistant types contracted fungal issues which appeared to me to be their foliage being held longer than it was genetically programmed to, going in to senescence and dropping due to the diseases forcing it to fall instead of weather.

Autumn Damask is generally a very disease resistant rose in many climates. It rusted and black spotted in the San Fernando Valley and at the beach. Neither climate triggered the plant to shed its foliage due to "winter" conditions. The only thing that made sense was it held on too long, becoming completely used up, worn out, until the immune system no longer functioned properly, permitting the fungi to do what they are programmed to do. That's what appears to occur with most Rugosa hybrids in those climates, too. Who knows if it's the increased heat or the higher or longer light concentrations or duration? Something, whatever it is, overcomes the chill requirements, overcomes the durability of the plant and foliage and they just don't perform as they do in cooler, shorter climates.You might get a flower, but once you've seen how they are supposed to look, the cheap imitation you get where they are just plain unhappy NEVER measures up. Once you've seen that difference, wasting time, space and other resources trying to coax what you're going to get just isn't worth it anymore.

I didn't know if you were aware of these two which were on the market. Both can have quite nice sepals and both are constant bloomers, where suited. Kim

Elegant Design

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.2584&tab=1

Chelsea

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1119&tab=1


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Laura, I'm glad you're learning from this as well. This forum is really a fantastic resource for anyone who wants to learn about roses. I'm not sure where else I could have gotten so much good information.

Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

This doesn't point out leafy sepals very well, but this is easily the largest bloom from Sydonie yet, Virginia! It's a little over 3" across, so my hopes were quickly met. I just took this photo about twenty minutes ago.

(Ed: I took out a ruler and it was 3.2" across to be precise.)

Jay

This post was edited by ArbutusOmnedo on Mon, Aug 4, 14 at 23:14


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Very pretty! Kim


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Jay, that's a lovely bloom, and I'm glad the flowers are up to speed size-wise. Even if the smaller flowers are still pretty, you might worry if they're undersized if there's something wrong. So it sounds like she's hitting all her growth targets, and looking good as well. Very satisfactory, indeed!

Enjoy those beautiful sepals and blooms,
Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Kim, your observation on 'Autumn Damask' and other unhappily out-of-their comfort-zone roses brings up a factor I hadn't really considered, which is disease resistance.

I had pretty much supposed that a rose that was planted in too warm a climate would either just refuse to bloom, but do okay otherwise, or it would languish or even grow backwards.

It makes perfect sense, though, that if a cold-climate rose doesn't get its cues from temperature (and/or light) changes, that it might also be more susceptible to fungal diseases that would take advantage of the plant being unable to follow its genetically programmed (but environmentally triggered) growth cycles.

I really like those Ralph Moore roses you mentioned, but have to confess that the RM rose I most want to try is 'Vineyard Song'.

And of your roses that I know about (and might possibly be able to obtain), 'Annie Laurie McDowell' is at the top of my list. What a beauty she is... and shade tolerant, too? Do you think she'd like our conditions hereabouts?

So, did you like my little rescue rose? I still don't know my modern foliage from the old-school leaves- do you have an opinion about what sort of rose she is, or is she still too young to tell?

Always curious,
Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Hi Virginia, one of the events that really helped solidify this idea I detailed on my blog (linked below). It deals with a R. Arkansana I couldn't keep rust free unless I almost grew it hydroponically. Water levels; light intensity; temperature levels; length of light duration; chill hours (and likely a few more conditions we haven't thought of) signal plants to perform their functions. In order to force Poinsettia to flower at Christmas time, they have to control all of the above, providing something like 16 hour periods of darkness at a time, or they won't flower until spring/summer. Why shouldn't roses originating in other climates require similarly?

I think you'll probably like Vineyard Song. Mr. Moore, never one to be very good at naming roses, used to call it "Bunch'o Grapes" when it was simply a seedling in the greenhouses. The flowers were violet and they didn't open fully, so the flower clusters looked like bunches of grapes.

Thank you. I admit to being overly fond of Annie Laurie McDowell, too. In these climates, admittedly, the only climates in which I have grown the rose (zones 9b and 10b), it is quite shade tolerant. The large plant pictured on HMF is grown on the north side of the block wall. Only the very top of the plant receives full, direct sun. The rest of the plant receives reflected light from the house and yard. The plant I have in my own "dirt", has to endure full southern sun and intense reflected light off a second story mirrored window. It FRIES, but I'm stuck for a place to grow anything climbing. Linda at Long Ago Roses in Granite Falls, NC, zone 7b, hasn't reported any major issues with Annie Laurie McDowell. You're in zone 8 in South Carolina? I wouldn't put it in dense shade there, but perhaps five or so hours of direct light, perhaps a bit less with long periods of strong, indirect or reflected light should work, I think.

To tell the truth, when I first saw your rescue flower, my thought was, "Simplicity". That is the petal and flower shape as well as color Simplicity often expresses here. I can't tell by the foliage because Simplicity often rusts itself to death here, so the clean foliage throws me. It's still young, so the foliage is still quite soft. It could be any number of things. Maturity will help figure that out. The size and texture of the foliage is likely to change quite a bit. Of course the size and perhaps color of the flowers may, also. The plant habit when it attains a more mature size and shape is going to help tell us all a lot about what it might be. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Observations on Pushing the Rose Envelope


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Oh, very pretty!

Virginia, that does look like the pink Simplicities I've seen, very good 'hedge' roses in my old area.

Ha, y'all have me studying sepals. Kordes Perfecta has some pretty ones


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Hmm I have pink simplicity, guess I will have to check out those sepals


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

bluegirl, I'm glad you're studying your sepals also- I suspect we'll have a pop quiz soon...

Kordes 'Perfecta' has very nice sepals, indeed, and is looking very healthy in general. Are you pleased with its overall performance? I like the flowers on HMF...

Virginia

PS Here are more leafy sepals from another rescue plant- possibly of the same variety as the first one, but possibly not. It looks like something else really liked those sepals- I'm glad it didn't eat much.


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Kim, I didn't know you had a blog, too; I guess I have some reading to do.

It makes perfect sense that a plant may have a less functional immune system as a result of stress. We see it with people and other animals, so why not plants?

I can see that R. foetida could introduce some genetic confusion into the mix if it's programmed to behave quite differently from the roses it's being introduced to...

Your mention of the Pernetianas got my attention, since I've been wondering about their history, and what makes some roses Pernetianas, but not similar-looking roses with similar ancestry... Do you know of some good background reading on Pernet-Ducher and/or Pernetianas? I'm not turning up much info online...

Pernet-Ducher's single-minded quest for that solid yellow rose reminds me of Mr. Moore and his crested sepals. Only, I don't know how much P-D cared that he was sacrificing disease-resistance for color. I think at that time, roses were valued for their flowers, not as garden plants, no?

'Simplicity' is a good thought, and I will use that as a sort of 'mental placeholder' name until I have a more mature plant, and can make some progress with varietal ID. I suspect that I may have another plant of the same variety about to (hopefully) bloom.

Thanks,
Virginia


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Virginia, I like the look of Kordes Perfecta very much but so far it hasn't been terribly vigorous--BUT--I've always picked it up as a "body bag" or chopped-root peat pot plant--and that's not often a good choice for a healthy plant.

the one from this spring is doing pretty well--it's under the partial shade of a big cedar tree.

Those are some very nice foliate sepals, very pretty.

Don't know all the history, but selecting for color (or any single characteristic) can be dicey, certainly in animals. E.g.: a breeder who turns up a beautifully marked pinto or Appaloosa foal just might be very tempted to breed the animal, even if its temperament or conformation isn't ideal, because those breeds are actually defined by color (some of the nuttiest horses I've known were beautifully marked animals).

I would suppose the same temptation exists in any field. IIRC, breeding for yellow color in roses introduced a susceptibility for black spot, in particular


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

Yes ma'am, a blog is one of the easier ways to chronicle information and make it available. It's almost like 'writing a book', only much cheaper and a lot more fun. I hope you find some interesting things there.

Precisely! Anything that sufficiently stresses any organism is going to significantly impact immunity. It can also significantly impact fertility, ability to flower, grow, etc. When you boil it all down, virtually all families of organisms react similarly to the stimuli they encounter. When humans and other animals become sufficiently stressed due to malnutrition, over exercise, dehydration, they stop ovulating. Remember flowering is ovulation. Stress a plant by starving it, drying it out, pushing it to grow too vigorously through too much nitrogen, and it stops flowering. If you can think of one family of organisms in comparison to others, things start falling into place and making perfect sense.

Oh, yes ma'am! Foetida, whose genes tell it to quickly push out those beautiful, marvelously scented leaves, use them up quickly, resulting in their entering senescence rapidly, then shedding them quickly due to the shorter warm season when ground water is available coming to an end. Mix those with the evergreen Tea genes which tell the organism to slowly produce those long-lasting, beautiful leaves, slowly meter their use so they last a long time, feeding, shading and moving water through the plant until the nearly year long growing season comes to an end and the next begins. Can you imagine how "confused" those leaves and plants are? The plant quickly pushes out foliage to use it up quickly, then refuse to shed it once it rapidly enters senility. Leaves which should only be expected to remain viable for a few months are "expected" to last all season long. You know what happens to "old foliage". It contracts rust and black spot. In this climate, Foetida remains healthy until quite late summer, early fall, when, where it naturally occurs, it would have shed its foliage due to lack of water and deteriorating weather. But, the first (and in many cases, several generations) generation hybrids of it with Teas and HTs are frequently disasters in moister years. I wonder why...

There really isn't one source of information I can suggest to you for learning much about Pernet's work, other than the 1920s through about 1950 ARS annuals. LeGrice in "Rose Growing Complete" (1970s paperback edition rather than the earlier 1965 hardback); Jack Harkness, "Roses", again about 1977, both wrote about Pernet's Foetida work and what many results were, but in those early annuals, you find MANY reports of how his efforts performed for people across the country and even the world.

You can't blame Pernet for the black spot issues, though. There is a famous story of someone listening to him speak of his roses, then asking him, "What about the black spot?" Pernet reportedly responded, "What black spot?" They didn't black spot for him in his climate, so he didn't know it was an issue until others, elsewhere reported it. Ralph Moore raise some incredibly interesting, beautiful and imaginative hybrid Rugosas and Bracteatas. There was one hybrid Rugosa with beautiful foliage; long, elegant, pointed buds of a medium red with buttery yellow reverse. They opened to scented, double, almost ruffled open flowers and bloomed constantly. The foliage was quite attractive and the plant had a decent architecture. There was also a striped, red and white, double, open, ruffled Rugosa hybrid on a decent, bushy plant which flowered all the time. He gave the ruffled one to Tom Carruth for Week's to test. I also grew both in my Newhall garden. A season or two after taking them home, I asked him about how Week's found them and he said Tom had mentioned they weren't interested because of the rust. Mr. Moore responded, "What rust?" They also rusted for me in spring and fall, but it required several more years for it to appear in Visalia because that climate didn't support rust on them, like Pernet's climate didn't support black spot on his Pernetianas. Mr. Moore's hybrid Bracteatas didn't rust for him in Visalia, but most did here. I could only grow Muriel, Out of Yesteryear, Out of the Night (his best for this climate), Star Dust, Star Magic, Pink Powderpuff and Huntington Red Bracteata in these climates without spray. All the others were just too rusty unsprayed.

David Austin experienced very much the same thing. He had no idea for many years what his roses did when unleashed in longer, milder climates. Reports were he was astounded to see his "mannerly five foot shrubs" exploding into twenty-plus foot monsters. That's why it required as many years as it did for his catalog to reflect so many of his roses were suitable for growing as climbers. If you believed his British catalog, or even the Texas catalog for the first few years, you had no idea how monstrous many of his roses could become.

LeGrice wrote of a very good yellow HT he raised from Pernet's work. It scored quite well in the trials early on, until it was discovered the plants defoliated completely after flowering, re grew the leaves, flowered well and defoliated again. That was an issue with many of Harm Saville's roses and quite a few of Joe Winchell's. So much inbreeding had been done to fix desired characteristics, some terminal ones were engineered in quite deeply. What too few seem to remember is, "recessives are forever".

Yes, Pernet's and Mr. Moore's focuses were far too narrow when it came to their "obsessions". Thankfully, both produced some good plants along those routes, and they did push the envelope, but, as with most breeding lines, it required and will require, many other hands over many more years to refine their efforts into plants acceptable in today's gardens. You can't fault Pernet too badly. His climate didn't let his roses black spot. Hybrid Teas weren't yet very strong, attractive plants for the most part. Some were quite good, but the push for the "novel" was so great, anything different was greedily snapped up and promoted all over the rose growing world. They didn't have to be "healthy", nor did they have to really grow well, as the use of chemicals was accepted everywhere. If you grew roses, you dusted or sprayed. There were complaints about weaker growers, but the buying public still clamored to buy them because the flowers were so different and so amazing compared to anything previously seen. They didn't have to root at all as no one sold them own root. The thrived where suited and languished where they weren't. It took many years for them to be refined to the point of being "assimilated into the HT family", where their descendents could be grown more easily in many more climates.

American roses didn't have to start becoming pretty "garden plants" until the 1950s. It wasn't until after WWII and the burgeoning new "Middle Class" whose large, suburban lots began making landscape use of roses that any real American demand arose for decent looking plants. Now we have increasingly smaller and smaller areas available to plant anything, and whatever is chosen had better look "on" much more than "off". There simply isn't room to have much else to take your focus away from something "dowdy looking". It hasn't been all that long that resistance to using toxins for pleasure has been more the rule. We didn't truly understand the costs of dusting weekly with DDT, nicotine-sulfate, or spraying with antibiotics and organophosphates until relatively recently compared to the length of their use. It wasn't as large an issue when the stinky spray was applied way out in the back yard where you probably wouldn't smell it in the house, but put it under the livingroom window or by the front door and that quickly changes!

It's very possible you have multiple plants of Simplicity. J&P used to advertise them as "roses by the yard". They were offered own root in many cases and with quantity discounts, something not generally done with American garden roses. Simplicity was promoted as an ever flowering hedge, requiring only the basic care and even forgiving of shearing like other hedging material. It was very much a throwback to the 1950s when mail order nurseries were offering Ragged Robin (Gloire des Rosomanes) with quantity discounts for use as hedging. It was in response to that practice with that rose Mr. Moore released Pink Clouds (1956) to compete in that market. Somewhere, I have one of Sequoia's 1957 pamphlets advertising Pink Clouds as a hedging plant.
Sequoia produced much wholesale stock for many other larger mail order concerns, so he had a front row seat to observe what was being offered. Kim


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RE: Leaf-pointed Sepals

I'm glad to hear that Pernet-Ducher didn't have BS problems with his Pernetianas, but even if he had, I wouldn't blame him for putting his color goal ahead of the plants' overall health.

It makes sense that first you need to get a plant that fulfills your most important criterion, and then work with that plant with all its imperfections to get better plants that still achieve that particular aim. Even I can see that if you want a healthy yellow rose, that it will take an awfully long time to get there using healthy pink roses...

I did read some of the ARS annuals online, and it was pretty sad- not only did P-D lose both of his sons in quick succession during WWI, but he then lost a good rose friend and customer, Admiral Aaron Ward, soon thereafter. And then a munitions factory in Lyons exploded, destroying much of his home, and he and his family barely escaped with their lives...

I guess it will take a bit of research to find out which of the Pernetianas were not as hampered by the "genetic confusion" and did pretty well in other climates. I know they can't have all been horrible-everywhere-but-Lyons...

It is indeed likely that I have multiples amongst the rescue roses, but the latest to start opening doesn't have the dark coral pink bud that the last one did, so I'm expecting something different this time. Not quite there yet, but the bud is a much bluer shade of dark pink- crimson, maybe?

It isn't raining just now, but it's too muggy and buggy to stand there for long yelling "open, open, open!" like the lady in the commercial you remember...

Thanks for all the good info,
Virginia


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