Wow, definitely not Cecile Brunner, will be interested in what those wiser than me have to say!

Gean, Send this to Jim Delahanty.
OR email to him, and ask him to take a look.

Jeri

Thanks, Jeri, I did. Maybe he'll have time to look and give an opinion.

It is really a pretty thing. I've tried looking at the Ashdown Library catalog as well as Rogue Valley stock to see if I could find any hints, but didn't have much luck. This morning the newly opening blooms are more apricot than pinky.

Anybody else have any ideas?

Gean, it does have a very "hybrid multiflora/hybrid musk/noisette" feel to it. Other than petal count, it very much resembles what Aptos is doing out back right now. If you have an old Ashdown catalog around, you might look at those three sections to see if anything matches what you've observing. Kim

It looks to me to be one of the tea-poly crosses around or before 1900; my first guess would be something like Katharina Zeimet or Yolanda Rabier, the latter because of the yellow circle at the base. It is clearly not Brunner or any of the descendants that I know of. JimD

Thanks so much, both of you for responding.

I went through all of the polyanthas Ashdown/Rogue Valley carry and didn't think it could be one because of the size. It's hard to tell from the pic, but it's 3 feet high already and shows no signs of slowing down. Most polys seem to be in the 1-3 foot range? It's girth is already about 2 1/2 feet and I think is going to be a lot bigger. Do those polys get very large? I haven't grown either of those you mentioned and can only go by the HMF size ranges, which is 1-3 feet.

I'll check the hybrid musks/hybrid multifloras, Kim. It does look something like the bloom pictures of Aptos on HMF. Do the leaves on Aptos have a distinctive smell, but the blooms un-fragrant??

I've gone through all the noisettes and Nastarana was the only one that had a similar bloom form, but N is supposed to have fragrant blooms, and this one doesn't. The foliage is very distinctive smelling, but I don't know what the smell is.

I tried comparing foliage smell with Redoute's Red but RR doesn't have any smell so that was a dead end. I do have Cato's Cluster in a pot; I should see if that foliage smells the same.

Thanks so much, both of you for responding.

I went through all of the polyanthas Ashdown/Rogue Valley carry and didn't think it could be one because of the size. It's hard to tell from the pic, but it's 3 feet high already and shows no signs of slowing down. Most polys seem to be in the 1-3 foot range? It's girth is already about 2 1/2 feet and I think is going to be a lot bigger. Do those polys get very large? I haven't grown either of those you mentioned and can only go by the HMF size ranges, which is 1-3 feet.

I'll check the hybrid musks/hybrid multifloras, Kim. It does look something like the bloom pictures of Aptos on HMF. Do the leaves on Aptos have a distinctive smell, but the blooms un-fragrant??

I've gone through all the noisettes and Nastarana was the only one that had a similar bloom form, but N is supposed to have fragrant blooms, and this one doesn't. The foliage is very distinctive smelling, but I don't know what the smell is.

I tried comparing foliage smell with Redoute's Red but RR doesn't have any smell so that was a dead end. I do have Cato's Cluster in a pot; I should see if that foliage smells the same.

Not all polyanthas are short - after all, Cecile Bruner is a polyantha, and even the bush form gets to be 5 feet tall in my garden. (The spray form is 8 feet tall, and of course the climber is 30+).

Jackie

Gean, my two Aptos are both canned and hacked back to uproot them from the ground. None of the remaining old foliage nor any of the new appear to have any fragrance to them at this time. The flowers are wonderfully fragrant with that multiflora scent, complete with the bitter aftertaste, what most call "musk", but actually isn't.

At least one of them needs to find a new home as my only level space in back is now over planted, maxed out, and nothing is worth scaling that slope to maintain. Any local takers? Kim

First thought was a musk & aptos fit the bill as being sold by Rogue Valley & Ashdowns some fleshy pink mostly white when fully open. Here's a shot of White Cecile from the Cranford Rosegarden in Brooklyn.
{{gwi:296935}}

You're right, Jackie, some polyanthas are big mammas. Thanks for clarifying.

Thanks, Kim, for letting me know about Aptos' fragrance.

Maybe after it grows up it will become more apparent what this is. Whatever, I like it. Thank you.

LaBrea, thanks for that yummy pic of White CB. Maybe it is Aptos. The fragrance doesn't seem to be the same, but I know that weather can affect fragrance a lot.

Kim lives in a lot warmer place than I do so that may be the difference or maybe my nose is broken!

Thanks for your comments; I appreciate them.

Temperature, wind, humidity, allergies, medications, strongly scented or flavored food and beverages can all affect scent and our ability to perceive it. I chew Polar Ice Eclipse gum which is a strong mint with eucalyptus oil. I love the stuff, but can't smell a cut onion under my nose with a fresh piece in my mouth. Add genetics and aging and we're doomed! LOL! Kim

Even the the things we can't smell vary.
I lose that wonderful Damask fragrance, unless it's very, VERY strong.

FWIW, I thought first of White CB -- but clearly, it's not that.

Jeri

White CB is one I left in Alabama, sadly. I liked that rose!

Funny how things work out - one of my Rogue Valley mystery roses is a Cecile Brunner, so I got one anyway. I know it's one of the climbers, and am hoping it is one of the clones that bloom more than a spring flush. That's why I ordered the Spray CB in the first place - :) And I've almost ordered Aptos several times but never did....

Thanks for responding, everyone.

Gean, later in fall, if you'd like, I can bare root a five gallon Aptos, hack it mercilessly and mail it to you if you want it. Kim

Jean, Here's a photo of my Aptos. If you doubt that this is your rose, check with Cliff Orent. He is most likely going to know what you have and he has a direct connection to Paul's Ashdown roses, making him a likely original source.

{{gwi:289956}}

Kim, thanks so much for the offer, but I think what I have is Aptos because it looks JUST LIKE the pic Sue posted. Thanks so much, both of you! I have a better idea of what to do with it, now. Yippee! Gean

I grow 'Aptos' (which I like much better than Korns as a name), and the poly pix do not resemble the rose depicted earlier. However, I did wander into the garden today and a rose that looks a lot like the pix of faux CB: 'Dorothy Howarth;' it matches right down to the temporary yellow base and the pink shadings on some of the background blooms. I don't know about size, because mine is in a pot. But the bloom resemblance is pretty strong.

As for the size question: Some of the older polys can get pretty big: Perle d'Or is well up to five feet; Zenaitta is very large, and the later polys like Lady Ann Kidwell can climb up a garage if let alone at pruning time. The earlier 1874-1910 polys tended to be one to three feet tall, but some of them had the china ability to build over time. Latter day polys had had infusions of everything from Noisettes to Hybrid Musks and the size factor should probably be adjusted by nearly double, IMO.
JimD
FWIW. JD

Jim, thank you for the info on the polys. I've read one of your papers on polys and know you've studied them a lot.

I'd never heard of Dorothy Howarth before so had fun looking it up. Sadly it's not available anywhere but Eurodesert/Vintage so don't think it could have been shipped to me.

It is interesting to me that Kim's Aptos must look different than mine and Sue's and I'm guessing your bloom form must be different too. That's why I originally never considered it.

I noticed that Cliff Orent's pic of Aptos, which is what both Ashdown/Rogue Valley use in their catalogs, looks different than mine/Sue's too. I'm guessing that heat, which is what you, Kim and Cliff Orent have in common, makes Aptos' blooms more double than mine and Sue's up here. Just a guess, but when I saw Aptos' bloom on Rogue Valley/Ashdown's site, I didn't think it was the same rose, but there are some pics on hmf that look like mine, esp one from someone in British Columbia. Their weather is about the same as ours, I am pretty sure.

So I'm guessing heat changes the blooms and makes it more double. What do you think? Are there other roses that heat causes more petals? I'm just guessing here ...

Gean, the first photo shows what Rosarium Uetersen does in high heat (Valencia, CA).

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.170157

This is Ohio, where it was very likely warm (hot for them) but in comparison, not as hot as the first photo. This is what RU does along the coast and other cooler areas here in SoCal.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.163478

While it is more common for roses to lose petal count in higher heat, quite a few gain them. Why? I have no clue. It is counter intuitive to me, but it happens often. Kim

I forgot, the same goes for Grey Pearl. When it was cool and damp, it was double with a center full of stamen and pollen. The same plant in the heat has virtually no stamen, just a center full of petals. Kim

Thanks for the pictures, Kim. That is really interesting. I'd never thought of roses gaining petals in higher heat before. Part of what makes roses so intriguing, I guess. Gean

And the reverse as well, fewer petals in the heat. Thanks again!

It makes sense they'd lose petal count in higher heat. Cells divide and multiply faster causing greater potential for accidents to happen. My impression is the faster the division and growth, the greater the potential for mutation, also. It takes time to produce larger petals in greater quantity. Faster development has resulted in smaller petals in lower quantities most often, from what I've seen. Grey Pearl, RU and their like appear to increase the quantity, but create much smaller versions, when it heats up. You can notice that from the RU photos I posted links to above.

These show what I've frequently seen from Grey Pearl. Cooler temps are larger petals, but fewer of them.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.64236

Higher temps create more, but smaller petals. Kim

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.159771