It's my understanding that the scent of Fair Bianca IS "pure" Myrrh.
A fragrance, btw, which is not by any means limited to Austin roses.
(I have smelled roses that were intensely myrrh-scented in J&P's research field.)

The nearest I can describe it is black licorice.
Some think it a very medicinal smell.
In FB, to me, it has a rather "sharp" character.

Jeri

No, it's not limited to Austin's roses, but one of the parent varieties he used extensively to create his roses (forget now which one exactly) had the myrrh scent and passed it along to a lot of the Austin progeny. I don't find it medicinal, but I know what you mean about the licorice. I don't find it exactly that scent, but it has something of that scent about it. I don't know how to explain it, but while those roses still smell like roses, the myrrh scent is distinctive.

Does Constance Spry have the scent? Did she get it from Belle Isis? I'm not sure either.

I believe that Ayshire roses may have the myrrh scent....at least that's why I added it to my collection. Mine hasn't bloomed yet though.

Robert

The best way to get to know the myrrh scent is to buy some myrrh. Look on Ebay.

Constance Spry has a strong sweet myrrh scent, perhaps caused by the Ayrshire rose ancestry of the Gallica Rose Belle Isis. I think it has the finest, sweetest myrrh rose fragrance in the world. Some say that myrrh scent in roses smell like Wrigley bubble gum, candy floss or medicinal creams. Not all like these myrrh scented roses, Constance Spry has enough "old rose fragrance" to balance the myrrh note. Other Myrrh scented Austin Roses are: Glamis Castle, Fair Bianca, St. Swithun, Scepter'D Isle and St. Cecilia. To my nose the Glamis Castle has the strongest most myrrh like fragrance among all roses. Even more than 'the Myrrh Scented rose' - Rosa Arvensis Ayrshire Splendens.

Here is a link that might be useful: Constance spry and myrrh scented Austins

Out of modern roses that are not Austins, Fragrant Masterpiece has VERY strong myrrh fragrance.
I really LOVE FM fragrance and Constance Spry fragrance (my favorite of all myrrh scented roses)
Olga

I HATE myrrh, but I like Fair Bianca, which to me smells just like Noxzema face cream. The fragrance is so distinctive that Rob and I have nick-named her "MISS NOXZEMA JACKSON". On any other rose the unusual vapors would be awful but it somehow fits Fair Bianca's pristine whiteness and chartreuse button eye. My advice is to ALWAYS smell a myrrh scented rose first before buying. The only two that I've liked to date are Fair Bianca and Tamora. Constance Spry positively makes me want to retch. Besides, she doesn't repeat.

Doesn't Scepter's Isle have a myrhh scent?

I think it smells like paperwhite narcissus. I love my Fair Bianca, Glamis Castle and St. Cecelia, but I don't try to smell them. I prefer my Myrrh with a little fruit courtesy Jude the Obscure.

Myrrh scent is one of my favorites, although it can be so intense as to be cloying. The climbing species Rosa arvensis may be one source of this scent in European roses. It shows up in unexpected places, including in some polyanthas. Felicite Perpetue has myrrh scent and its presumed parentage includes Rosa sempervirens. If that is true, then that is another ultimate source of this scent in roses, and the genes may pop up unexpectedly, as it may be an ancestor to at least one noisette. I have myrrh scented ramblers like Long John Silver, an Austin or two like Tamora, polyanthas like Little White Pet and at least one mini, "Lindee."

Scents are interesting. I find a few of the more unusual scents in more than one species. For example, clove/cinnamon scent is found in roses as diverse as some R. californica and R. soulieana. Linseed oil is characteristic of not only R. foetida but also R. fedtschenkoana and R. webbiana. New research seems to indicate that Tea scent is the result of a mutation. We've got a lot to learn.

Cass is that clove/cinnamon scent in R. californica resident in the bloom?

There was one Shrub Rose out at J&P's place here that had gorgeous yellow blooms,
and perfect foliage.
Unf., its fragrance lay somewhere between old avocados and linseed oil.
Needless to say, that one has never been released. --veg--

They had no few roses with a strong myrrh fragrance, and no discernable relationship
to anything Austin.

So Fragrant Masterpiece is Myrrh scented? I didn't realize that. To me Fragrant Masterpiece smells like mint toothpaste. At first I didn't like it, but now I've gotten used to it. (I like the old rose damask scent and that is what I was expecting. Jude the Obscure is my favorite scent, but I think it smells more citrus than anything else - can't detect the myrrh in it.

St. Cecilia is a perfect example of myrrh. I don't much care for it, but I'll take it over no scent at all. It will always remind me of the English rose, so eventually you associate it with good things and the scent becomes distinct to that nice rose image.

The only rose I've had that is described as having a myrrh scent is Glamis Castle, which is also the only rose I've ever disliked passionately. Someone once described the fragrance as being like that of a used diaper pail and I have no quarrel with that. Since mine was also gangly and armed with vicious thorns and blooms that lasted about five minutes, I felt an incredible sense of relief when I finally ditched it.

Ho, this thread surely proves the subjectivity of scent! I cannot bear paperwhite narcissi - literally gag making...and yet the fragrance of my ayreshire, Splendens, is evocative beyond belief (although I usually call it the raspberry ripple rose because of its colouring). I confess to also disliking Glamis Castle as although there is a trace of myrrh, there is a much nastier underlying muskiness which I am not keen on.

My dad was a painter and decorator so I have become habituated to a number of strong industrial fragrances such as naptha, linseed, tarmacadam (I particularly love this) and turpentine. Old fashioned oil based paints are also a direct route to my childhood subconscious.

For a few years, while my neighbour grew jasmine, I was literally unable to go into my garden during the evening. She had a year away in Germany and she had barely vanished into a taxi to the airport before I was on top of the wall with shears and deathspray (I blamed her tenant)...although as she had been the recipient of my increasingly infuriated complaints, I believe she knew full well who the culprit was. To add insult to injury, she somehow managed to lure my madame Gregoire rose over to her side while the jasmine then grew up preventing a rose rescue (I had to chop the rose back to a stump to get at the jasmine) We are still friends, astoundingly.

My Queen of Sweden roses, which are supposed to have a 'light myrrh fragrance' have such a noticeably strong perfume that everyone who visits comments on it. It's perhaps more evident at present because we're 'enjoying' our 20th straight day of temperatures around 36 degrees (96F) - the QofS has had her second flush during this torrid heat - all the bushes are flowering prolifically but, because I use a drip irrigation system for one hour twice a week, it means that each bush receives a total of 16 litres of water a week. In this heat they really need much more than that. My St. Swithun also has a very pronounced myrrh scent in this heat, too - although its scent is always very strong to my nose and definitely myrrh or, at least, the same 'smell' as the Queen of Sweden.

Tricia

Subjective, indeed. I, too, love the myrrh scent that comes with Rosa arvensis hybrids, to the point that I am growing R. arvensis itself from seed (successfully so far!). In Vintage Gardens' last days I bought a plant of Jekyll's Own Rambler (aka Miss Jekyll), being not quite brave enough to take on Venusta Pendula, which was also available then. It has that scent, too, and in other respects is like R. arvensis, but with more petals. (As a side note, I wonder why these names are in single quotes in HMF, since Jekyll's Own Rambler is said to be a "found" rose from Joyce Demits and Virginia Hopper in the Vintage Gardens Book of Roses?)

I also grew Glamis Castle once -- it was the horrifically thorny, naked legs that did it in here -- even after being pruned fairly hard, in desperation. Not a lot of grace in that shrub. It's foliage wasn't too healthy, either, come to think of it.

For the record, I also like the scent of the Persian Yellow rose, described as linseed or licorice. "Tarmacadam", must be something like what is called asphalt here? I wonder if there is a rose that smells like that :-)?

Has anyone ever smelled a rose that smells like black pepper? My Cecille Brunner smells strongly of black pepper. Its the strangest thing...

..I think my 'Ghislaine de Feligonde' smells of black pepper, now you come to mention it.... supposed to be musk...

...according to Austin's... their new rose 'The Ancient Mariner' has a ''strong myrrh fragrance''.. well, most times I can't smell a thing, some times it's light, and others it's pure Coriander.... to my nose.... but if that's myrrh, then it wouldn't be top of my list of rose fragrances...

SoFl, Marlorena - perhaps the pepper smell comes as much from the foliage as from the rose. My Reine des Violette for instance has a notably peppery smell when you rub the leaves, with perhaps a hint of clove, that I quite like. Madame Isaac Periere I think has this in its foliage, as do several other OGRs. While I love this peppery smell, I am very not fond of Scepter'd Isle smell, so if that's myrrh I should avoid it. Shame that I can't detect a wide variety of pleasant rose scents, but can detect relatively mild unpleasant ones.

Cynthia

To me, 'Tamora' smells like the cordial Sambuca. I get this as well from 'Moonsprite'. I'm not a huge fan of the "myrrh" scent, but I included a couple roses having it just for variety. When I cut a bouquet recently, I included 'Tamora' and 'Abraham Darby' because they were about the same color and form, but with markedly different scents.

:-)

~Christopher

Cynthia.... I can't say I detect much from the foliage, only the flowers... I shall check my Reine des Violettes tomorrow... but I think I prefer musk to myrrh.... incidentally, as you mentioned Scepter'd Isle... Robert Calkin, Austin's fragrance expert - formerly of Yardley's... writes that this rose does indeed have a strong myrrh scent...

...I have a booklet he wrote on fragrances, for the Heritage Roses Group here... he also puts forward the Alba/Damask 'Belle Amour' as typical myrrh... [I don't know that rose].... and that myrrh fragrance is reminiscent of sweet anise.... with the origins of myrrh being found in the herb Sweet Cicely [Myrrhis odorata]...

...I learn something every day...

Hmm, I was afraid of that, Marlorena - looks like I'll have to be cautious about the myrrh scent, though it sounds like it can vary. If it smelled like anise, I'd be fine with it, but it's distinctly "eau de old socks" to me.

Christopher, you're broadening my horizons. I don't think I've ever had or smelled Sambuca, but I'm sure this is a good excuse to try some, and get beyond my Cabernet for adult beverages. On the other hand, if it tastes like Scepter'd Isle smells, forget it!

Cynthia

Wow! What an old thread. I never did find out what myrrh is like. I get the impression that it varies greatly depending on the rose. I did grow Belle Isis briefly, and I can remember it smelling like beer, something I also pick up in Souvenir de la Malmaison, oddly enough.

SoFl, yes, I've smelled that peppery scent in roses, both the flowers and the foliage. Usually Chinas and Bourbons. I currently have Cecile Brunner, but it's a very young, new plant and hasn't bloomed yet. Perle d'Or is also new for me and has bloomed, and I smell a peppery spice scent to that one, too.

Campanula, I've never smelled narcissus, but I once had a vase of lilies that I THOUGHT smelled wonderful until a friend dropped by and told me they smelled like cat pee. Of course, after that, all I could smell was cat pee. What kind of jasmine did your neighbor grow? There is something grown here called Confederate Jasmine which is actually Trachelospermum asiaticum, and I don't like it. One of those things that smells good at first sniff then quickly becomes sickening.

But any of the Jasminum sambac varieties smell wonderful to me, and I can't imagine anyone disliking them.

Perhaps you're more familiar with Marie Brizard Anisette than its Italian relative Sambuca. They're both anise-flavored cordials. Next time you're at a restaurant or bar, ask if you can sniff an open bottle of either.

For a non-alcoholic comparison, I'm reminded of the scent of the strong licorice candies my great-grandmother used to have. We called them "salmies" but their proper name is "salmiac". My mother's side is from northern Germany -- Hamburg, specifically -- and I'd have to say these candies are an acquired taste.

There are some variations from nearby countries. This is the Finnish version.

:-)

~Christopher

I used to be an orchestra teacher in a Jesuit high school. My office and our rehearsal space was in an old chapel. For many years ,when the chapel was actually used as a chapel, they burned so much myrrh that it literally permeated the entire space. Sometimes my throat would hurt and my eyes would sting. It's a very distinct smell. Whenever I smell roses that are supposed to have a myrrh scent I have never really felt that's what they smell like.

When I first grew Ambridge Rose, I was so excited to smell it because DA described it as the most wonderful of myrrh scents. When I got my first whiff, I thought it smelled like sugar free cherry bubblegum. YUCK! So not a fan! It grew more on my as time marched on but it was never one of my favorite smells. I have smelled raw myrrh burning and I don't recall it smelling anything like sugar free cherry bubble gum. I remember liking it.

As far as my favorite scents go for roses, I love the rose/lemon scent. That being said, my two favorite scented DA roses has to be Brother Cadfael and Evelyn. Both of their scents are fantastic. Can't wait until my Alnwick rose gets a little older. So far, I smell nothing, but am looking forward to the raspberry scent.

As I understand, the "myrrh" in question is not the incense resin, but an unrelated herb. The myrrh smell in Austin roses can be like licorice or camphor, or sometimes it's an unpleasant chemical smell like something you might whiff from an oil refinery.

Perhaps the designation of myrrh type scents is just a general reminding rather than actually smelling like myrrh. Even the carol "We Three Kings" talks about myrrh having a bitter perfume, but it sounds like in real life it's definitely pungent but different from the roses reminiscent of myrrh. Mustbnuts - I wonder how the sugar free cherry bubble gum smells different from the full sugar kind? Yeah OK, OK - the full sugar smells sweeter... You have a very discerning nose, and I envy that in a rose gardener. Either way, I'd be happy to smell anything reminiscent of fruit in my roses, if I can't smell the elusive damask or old rose scent. For instance, I can't smell much of anything other than "vaguely botanical" from my Alnwick Rose.

Christopher, those "sweets" look lethal and suspiciously like a cough drop called Fisherman's Friend. Supposedly real fishermen use them to beat a cough when you can't stop to baby it, and it looks, smells and (more importantly) tastes like coal tar. I suspect this is actually a rite of passage among real fishermen to see if you can hack it (pardon the pun). And sadly, I suspect that if the bartender caught me asking to smell the cordials, I'd be facing a breathalyzer test and turning over my keys for the night (smile). Too bad, as I'm curious now.

Cynthia

yep, I always understood the scent to be reminiscent of myrrhis odorata, aka sweet cicely...which, like many umbels, has a definite liquorice scent (although interestingly, liquorice, glycerrhiza glabra (sp?) does not smell either 'liquorice/aniseedy or even myrrh like at all).

As for bubblegum, I grow a little philadelphus microphyllus which is a dead ringer for the Bazooka Joe bubblegum of my childhood,

Philadelphus x lemoinei 'Belle Etoile', a hybrid of Philadelphus microphyllus and Philadelphus coronarius, smells like bubblegum to me, too. Can't quite decide if I really like it or not, but it is novel, and quite strong.

I'm with mustbnuts on lemon rose scents; 'Lemon Spice' is front and center in the rose bed nearest my back patio for that very reason (nice, frequent flowers and good foliage, too).

ROFL Nipstress! The reason I know about cherry flavored sugar-free bubble gum is I don't chew anything but sugar free gum. Wouldn't know what "regular" gum smells like. However, my tastes have changes since I am getting older. No more bubblegum for me. Just mint now. Don't want to have bad breath for my ballroom/swing dance partners!

Oh and Michael, thank you for explaining that the myrrh scent is not the same as the myrrh resin. That explains a lot!

Ah, that explains it mustbnuts. Your dentist is surely happy with you as are your dance partners. Whatever the smell of myrrh is, I'm not sure I'd want to smell it in my face in ballroom dancing. Thanks for identifying the root plant source, Camps and Michael. Still, I like the smell of sweet Cicely and dislike most myrrh roses. Those roses must distort the source of the smell in some way in the translation.

Cynthia

Well, the Austin myrrh scents are all different. Some are mixed with lemon or cherry or rose or gasoline.

"Well, the Austin myrrh scents are all different. Some are mixed with lemon or cherry or rose or gasoline." Ha, ha!

I've only smelled this fragrance in Austin's Tamora and it is revolting to my nose. Yuck! However, as the bloom aged the fragrance did soften to a nice pleasing smell.

Yep, Michael - I can picture a wine expert exclaiming over the scents of a myrrh-scented Austin. "Ah yes, base tones of tar overlaid with hints of gasoline and turpentine, finished off with subtle hints of wet dog and baby poop". Wouldn't that be refreshing honesty to see in a rose catalog? Few catalogs have that kind of bravery, though Plant Delights used to have hysterically funny honest evaluations of perennials they sold. "Requires a degree in botany or the patience of a saint". "Flower has a face only a parent could love". "Able to cover houses, garden tools, and small children if immobile too long".

Cynthia

The roses that are described as having myrrh scent all smell different to my noseometer (YMMV). Fair Bianca smells like anise to me, but with a moderating underlying richness. Glamis Castle smells like mothballs primarily, with some turpentine, although that lessens by the third day and becomes sweeter just before petals drop. Carding Mill is primarily fruity, not roselike at all to me, and yes, somewhat like juicy fruit gum, but not quite. The Austin catalog describes Boscobel as myrrh and hawthorn. HAWTHORN? Blech! The noseometer says that will lead to barfing.

What is described as myrrh scent in roses, is the scent of some of the molecules of a class of phenolic compounds called phenylpropenes. Camphor and turpentine carry such molecules. Liquorice, anise, foeniculum (fennel), tarragon, cicely and lots of other plants also carry such molecules. A couple of basic aromatic molecules that carry this scent are estragol and anesol (which are used in the food industry). There is the assumption that phenylpropenes are synthesized by plants for their defense due to their insecticidal properties.

Because of the complexity of a rose's fragrance this scent is mixed with other scents so no rose which supposedly smells of myrrh smells the same. And yes, myrrh is a misnomer, the scent smells nothing like myrrh resin. The Austin catalog should be changed to point out that many of their roses smell of phenylpropene.... Now that would be a marketing success. Btw, to a greek nose all these roses smell of ouzo..

I was gifted a DA Scepter'd Isle last summer, specifically because the woman did not like the distinctive Myrhh scent....found that out afterwards. Thankfully I love the scent and the prolific blooms...doesn't seem at all medicinal to me or hubby! Good thing he agrees with me. I can't plant boxwoods because he finds their scent SO disgusting.

I remember the first time I ever smelled an English Rose. I had ordered St. Cecilia from Heirloom roses. It was the first rose I ever ordered online and the first English rose I ever saw in real life. That myrrh scent is shocking if you're expecting a tea rose fragrance. I do like it, but it was definitely a surprise for me and a scent you will never forget.

Most people either like it or hate it. I must admit I much prefer something fruity or damask like, but I always associate that myrrh with English roses and its somehow grown on me.

Fair Bianca smells like salt water taffy to me.

..I think I now know what they mean by myrrh.... I've got 3 in my garden that smell very similar... Scepter'd Isle... Wollerton Old Hall and St Swithun, and they all smell like a floral honey... I rather like it, it's different, but I could understand anyone who didn't....

Marlorena, I only have SdI from the ones you mentioned and to my nose its myrrh scent is mixed with intense 'rosy' sweet tones. Glamis Castle on the other hand has what I would call a drier purer myrrh scent, which although less intense is more typical. That one is a rose whose scent raises many objections although not on my part.

I've been able to smell notes of Frankincense in some roses, but never Myrrh.

I wrote a little detailed write-up about these smells in this thread: Anyone here growing Frankincense and Myrrh?

As mentioned before, the so called rose myrrh scent is not really reminiscent of the Commiphora myrrha scent but rather the scent better represented in anise, liquorice etc. I don't know who first used the term myrrh for this scent (David Austin?) but imo it is a misnomer.

It was probably Graham Thomas or Gertrude Jekyll that associated the term "myrrh" with Ayrshire splendens or Belle Isis. I vaguely remember David Austin mentioned the reference in one of his tomes, and DA borrowed the term after he started hybridizing roses.

"Myrrh" fragrance also pops up in various species hybrids and gallica crosses outside of Austin's breeding lines or the ayrshire roses. It is by no means an exclusive discovery by him.

Our sense of smell and taste buds are genetically predetermined, and no two individuals will smell or taste the same thing across the board.

To me, "Myrrh" in roses doesn't smell anything like Myrrhis odorata, anise, black licorice, sambuca, ouzo, camphor, or anything foul. I have smelled or tasted all of those things individually in the past, so I know what that scent profile is. I actually detested black licorice for the longest time, until I learned to stomach Jägermeister or Pernod.

Fair Bianca is my favorite rose fragrance. To me it smells like a combination of heliotrope, vanilla eclair, and marzipan whipped together with the olfactory warmth of powdery "myrrh." I don't smell bitter anise whatsoever. By warmth, I mean a sensation and not a particular smell. Ambergris, Musk, or Patchouli also smell warm to me, in addition to their specific fragrance.

Glamis Castle, on the other hand, also has powdery vanilla "myrrh" but contaminated with an undercurrent of fetid rancid fat. Of course, that might be due to how quickly the petals deteriorate as the flower shatters only moments upon opening.

St. Cecilia has almost everything: vigorous growth, continuously produced, big beautiful flowers, delicate coloring, and a strong blended "myrrh" fragrance; however, if it only smelled as elegant or delicious as Fair Bianca, it would be my favorite Austin.

IMHO, the purest "myrrh" scent is probably Chaucer or Ambridge Rose. Scepter'd Isle also periodically has a powerful pure "myrrh" scent, but with this season's weather it smelled like centifolia rose and gumdrops instead. The numerous times I buried my nose into flowers of Constance Spry, I am disappointed by the rather light fragrance, it isn't strong scented at all. Perhaps the volatile oils get burned off too quickly in the California sun, versus dreary England.

In defence of my country romogen, I could say that, in my area here in eastern England, the last 3 months have been absolutely glorious and we shouldn't grumble about it, as we usually do... 3 months of warm sunny weather - which to us is mid 70'sF - with just a day here and there of rain... wonderful if you're on holiday or enjoy being outdoors... It's been a long time since I recall a year as this..

I should add that today looks like the final day of it...

As for myrrh scent, I'm not terribly struck on it, preferring cloves or what is called old rose scent, but again - we mustn't grumble, better than none at all...

I'm popping in rather late to this discussion, but I'm wondering if anyone else notices the effects of temperature and environment on myrrh scented roses. I enjoy the aroma of these roses but only in the garden where there's plenty of air to breathe. They give me a headache when I bring them into a warm room. Old rose, citrus and whatever one calls a Rosa alba scent are always lovely and my favs! Thought sparked by Camapanula: my aunt once gave me paperwhites to force in my kitchen. I woke in the middle of the night to the smell of burning plastic and ran downstairs to see if electrical wires or something had caught fire. But no. Just the "fragrant aroma" of paperwhites. Yuk! In the garden, they're delicious even if a little pungent. For the record, to my nose Glamis Castle is VERY strongly myrrh. When I grew him, I never invited him inside my home. Carol