I would rather hear what you picked and wish you hadn't! Too big, too small, too thirsty, too rusty, too smelly... what would you skip?

Jeri

In Pacific Palisades, The Mayflower was stunning. Totally without any fungal issues and looking every bit as if it was a Portland OGR. I loved English Elegance, Lucetta, Red Coat, and a few others whose names escape me as I write this, but none of them were healthy enough, nor remained conpact enough for this garden and climate. Kim

Of these,the only one that is beginning to look like a bit of a down-right loser in my garden is Gertrude J; beautiful as the flowers are, it seems rather a weak grower, prone to bspot...I can't seem to get it to "take off" at all!But many have responded well to my soil-improvement campaign. For example, I moved The Prince (formerly a pathetic thing)and this year it was beautiful. I'd be very interested to hear both Jeri and Kim elaborate their comments on these interesting Austin roses. I can see for sure that, at least as far as pruning goes,they are rather different from OGRs.I'd love to hear more from you expert rose people about Austins in hot, dry climates ..thanks in advance, bart

In January she was a band. By April she'd already thrown up (actually thrown down is more like it) several 4-3 foot canes with 3-2 blooms at the extremety of each one of them - not exactly scraping the ground but almost getting there. Upon which I upped & bumped her off. Good riddance!

One point I made in the tribute was Mr. Moore's admonition to "create a good plant first; it's easy to 'hang a pretty flower' on it later". Mr. Marriott was obviously listening as his response in his presentation was that at Austin's, they used different criteria for selecting seedlings. The first is "the look". The rose must look as an English rose should look. Second was fragrance. It must smell as an English rose must smell. Third was it must have a beautiful flower. He further stated, "of course health is considered. The rose must be 'acceptably healthy', but it is not as high a consideration for us as was stated for Mr. Moore." My experience with many of the Austin roses in coastal, savannah and mid desert climates here in SoCal prove his statement.

I know, no rose is going to be healthy everywhere. I also know many of us revile Hybrid Teas because of their lack of disease resistance, often for very similar reasons. Far too often, cultivars have been selected based up the "pretty face" instead of quality of plant, including disease resistance. Yes, there are exceptions, but the "rule" has been novelty and pretty flower at the expense of health across climates. To a certain level, even though we state health is the important issue, we continue going for the pretty face instead. Knock Out roses have been engineered to resist more strains of black spot across the entire US better than any other rose. You read what many have to say about Knock Outs. Enough said?

Austin roses have been bred and selected to perform in a British climate. Vigorous parents have been used to provide the vigor necessary for his harsher, shorter growing season. That extra vigor is also a great problem when unleashed in milder, longer climates. Most of us here have experienced the "octopus arms" expressed by many of his roses when grown in longer, warmer areas. The 'vigor' necessary to create "mannerly, five foot shrubs" in Britain is what produces fifteen foot climbers in my (and quite a few other) climates.

Of course, being selected in Britain, his roses can't be expected to resist our strains of black spot, but many of them lack the necessary mildew and rust resistance to make them decent plants here without spraying. My climate is often windy. It is often above the 80 degree threshold where most chemical measures become highly phytotoxic. Our greater aridity contributes to the phytotoxic effects of most disease treatments. Even if chemical use was possible and acceptable, they are often contra indicated because of wind, heat and the wide swings in aridity.

Fragrance in roses comes at the expense of petal durability. I've linked an article I wrote some years ago documenting what was known at the time about it. Fragrant roses have very soft, chemically active petals which are very susceptible to sun and heat scorching, with much less life than those with greater petal substance and less scent. That often translates into significantly reduced landscape value in hotter, drier, windier areas...like 99% of the desert south west.

It isn't surprising many Austin roses have been demonstrated to be water hogs. First, they were bred and selected in an environment which provides a high level of rainfall and ground water. They were bred and selected to have large, many petaled flowers, which require many more resources to create. Those large, very full flowers are also much more successfully created and maintained in cooler, more stable climates than mine. Their inbred vigor, necessary to provide suitable vigor in their original colder, shorter season climate, encourages many of them to develop into huge plants in longer, warmer seasons. That vigor also requires much more water and food to produce and maintain. It also makes them more unsuitable for our increasingly decreasing garden sizes. In newer construction in much of our area, most "garden spaces" are against hot house and yard walls, in rather shallow borders. Add mechanically compacted soil to provide mandated seismic stability, and its accompanying elimination of drainage, and these types of plants become gardening nightmares. The hotter climate becomes significantly worse when greater and greater percentages of the available "yard space" is covered in hardscape required to turn the yard into "outdoor living spaces". Reflected and radiated heat cooks plants in general, but is often severe on plants of the Austin rose requirements.

In the worst of these situations, most plants become gardening nightmares, but the lack of heat tolerance; higher water requirements; enthusiasm to develop into overly large plants; generally lower disease resistance (in far too many instances) to rust and mildew; and their often, incredibly prickly character, and you have issues which make them quite unsuitable for many places.

When I grew the ones I found good garden plants in other areas, water, drainage and space weren't issues. Some of the earlier cultivars were truly enjoyable plants in their places and times. Several of those same roses couldn't make the transition from mid desert to savannah climate and had to be adopted out to others who still garden in the hotter, drier areas and can provide them what they need to keep them happy.

I am far more likely to use plants created by breeders who value disease resistance and bushier, more controlled plants higher than Mr. Austin's nursery has. Yes, there have been some very healthy, more recent English roses, but their other requirements and characteristics, their greater water requirements being an important one, make them very undesirable for my goals. Yes, I hope for fragrance, but I demand higher resistance to the major fungal issues; decent heat tolerance; early, fast and as continuous as possible rebloom; as few prickles as possible; on a more controlled, bushy, dwarf plant which should be more suitable for smaller spaces. None of those are goals any Austin rose, of any vintage, is likely to be helpful in achieving. Kim

The photo is my Graham Thomas this morning.

For the record, I've never seen the jolly green giant syndrome on any of my Austins. True, excessive heat is a problem here for Austins--but so is it for every other kind of rose I grow.

Who would want to give up this disease-resistant (never been sprayed), fragrant beauty?

Not me! : )

Kate

I probably shouldn't try Happy Child again--tried 3 times. The plant was a total wimp, wouldn't grow, gradually faded away. Few problems with BS however, and get a load of these blooms.

Sigh--I may try again.

Kate

I agree with what Kim wrote above. I'm annoyed that my 15 Austins in zone 5a smell great in cold and rainy spring, but LOSE THEIR SCENTS in hot and dry summer above 80 degrees. I still need hybrid teas like Firefighter to amuse my nose in the summer.

Annie L. M. rose is the only one that smells good regardless of the weather: cold and rainy, or hot and dry. She's a double-cross of Renae x Renae, or double-whammy of dominant scent gene. She holds the record of the strength, stability, and duration of lilac and lavender scent. I put one Annie's bloom as a floatie in a bowl, and my entire kitchen smells like lilac.

Hi WinterCat: Is your Pat Austin grafted? I have 2: the own-root is really tiny in its second year, the size of a yapping puppy. The other one is grafted on Dr. Huey, but I buried the bud union 4 to 6" below soil, so it's tiny too. The winter-die-back to the crown keep the roses here small.

Hi Ratdogheads: I like that name. Is your Graham Thomas own-root? I have Eglantyne own-root, it's so thornless that I thought I got a Heritage or James Galway. Others report Eglantyne as very thorny. In my garden the own-root Knock-outs' thorns are less than the grafted ones on Dr. Huey.

Austin roses that I would never plant again:

1) Christopher Marlow - even as own-root, zone 5a, he's messy and spreading with octopus canes, it's a nuisance to prune him. I can easily plant 3 Annie Laurie McDowell for the space he occupies.

2) William Shakespeare 2000 - he blooms well in partial shade but the color is hard to like. The scent is fleeting, and when the violet scent pops up, it reminds me of a funeral home with flowers.

3) Eglantyne - as own-root it doesn't like my alkaline soil. It's stingy at the rose park (5 blooms), and even stingier with me (1 bloom). Yes, I fell in love with its old rose with a touch of ginger scent last year. But Annie L. M. is way ahead of Eglantyne in all aspects: tons of blooms, 100% thornless, great scent, and requires one tenth the water that an Austin consumes.

It seemed like all the water I give to Austin waterhogs are converted to thorny octopus canes, until I gave them slow-released sulfur. Then the canes break out in abundant blooms. Austins are meant for English climate: cold, rainy, and acidic soil.

This year even the flowers were horrible.

Austin has been breeding roses for several decades by now, and the first ones he made was all about the flower shape and fragrance, anything else came as sort of a lesser priority. Compared to other makers of roses like; Kordes and Tantau which are families that have beed breeding roses for generations; they have been wroking to improve disease resistance for a long time. In Europe I know Kordes send large number of roses to both Sweeden and Norway, and to Italy and France to test out new varieties. They are really making an effort and working with rose growers every where. I don't know if there are similar trials in US.

For the fragrace part, I think it never really was forgotten, but other qualities have been worked at; rain tolerance, colour, hardiness, long lasting flowers, repeat, disease resitance, performance in less than ideal soil... Harkness have been known to make fragrant floribundas and other classes, but not always very hardy ones.

And for the Austins, some of them have severe rust and blackspot problems in UK and other places in Europe, some are quite good.

I can't resist naming the ones I do like such as Potter and Moore, Cottage Rose, Sophy's Rose, Sister Elizabeth, Pretty Jessica and The Dark Lady. These are all more compact, flower well and have almost no disease for me. Overall, however, for the me teas, small Bourbons and some of the Chinas have been the most rewarding for me in the garden.

Ingrid

So I moved Paul Neyron into potting soil, and mulch him with horse manure (high in potassium). Let's see if he improves.

"Winter" here isn't usually enough to stop the roses from flowering, much less check their growth. My "winter" is often very much like Britain's growing season. This winter has been, that's for sure! Ivy Geranium is completely indeterminate here. I cut nearly ten feet of it out of the trees recently where I'd let it get away from me.

Here is an own root Lordly Oberon after about six years growth in the next valley north where Aimeekitty lives. It's our lack of real winter which creates the Jack and the Beanstalk plants out of many of these roses. Kim

" . . . their other requirements and characteristics, their greater water requirements being an important one, make them very undesirable for my goals. Yes, I hope for fragrance, but I demand higher resistance to the major fungal issues; decent heat tolerance; early, fast and as continuous as possible rebloom; as few prickles as possible; on a more controlled, bushy, dwarf plant which should be more suitable for smaller spaces . . . "

In my coastal garden, drought is becoming more common. Here, we MUST plan for years ahead, when roses will HAVE to succeed on less water, or leave, to be replaced by drought-tolerant natives (if we're lucky).

Austin roses don't fit into that scenario, so the few of them we retain (Prospero, Golden Celebration, The Dark Lady, and Cymbaline) we keep as "pets" who get a little extra coddling.

We are removing roses that can't hang tough, and replacing them with salvias and lavenders, and the like. The "keeper" roses are cultivars that have proven their ability to live through hard times.

Likewise, we do not spray, and have not for many years. If a rose requires spraying (and many Austins set new standards here for rust and mildew) they simply cannot stay.

Jeri

It's the lack of winter which makes octopussy Austins a problem for CA. This winter is our mildest in a decade, and I killed 3 Knock-outs since they got big, and I don't like pruning. It's futile to water roses to get large thorny canes, then waste time to chop the canes and dispose them. That's why I want roses bred by Kim: thornless, and every ounce of water is used to produce blooms, rather than thorny wood.

Those bred from Aloha are very often afflicted with rather severe black spot issues. Abe Darby, bless his heart, gets both rust and black spot in many places here. Lordly Oberon has remained totally healthy in both gardens I've planted him, and will flower well, as long as I permit him to be ginormous. I dead head him by cutting off the four to five foot flowering stems. The previously posted plant is on a five foot wall. Her daughter's covers the story and a half front entrance wall and often flowers over the eaves on the roof.

Heritage looks like this much of the warmer season, unless I grow him hydroponically. This soil drains very well and doesn't hold much moisture in the heat. I'm sure the disease issues are a combination of too long growing season combined with water stress induced suppressed immune systems in most cases. I can force R. Arkansana to rust by with holding water. Many roses can be forced to mildew by being kept too dry. All of the Austins out front are budded on Dr. Huey. Graham Thomas is usually fairly clean but will rust later in the summer into fall. Charles Austin and Yellow Charles Austin remain clean as does The Pilgrim, but none will flower at smaller than seven feet. The two unidentified dark red ones require copious water to even generate growth, much less flower. Sharifa Asma has severe RMV, flowers well but is prone to mildew. Mary Rose is the happiest in this situation. The unidentified apricot flowers little and rusts much. In the same terrace, Grey Pearl, awful plant it is, has zero disease. Chicago Peace flowers well with no disease as do Purple Buttons, Jet Flame, the four foot Magic Carrousel, the eight foot Grandmother's Hat and assorted minis spotted around to fill in holes. They all receive the same water at the same time, with the same sun exposure in the same soil. It's sufficient for Kew Rose Lavatera, Kona hibiscus, various cuphea, lantana, salvias, rain lilies and other "companion" plants to do their things as expected. It's definitely a hodge-podge but it's what has demonstrated their willingness and abilities to battle the conditions and flourish.

Most DAs do well here, although they need to be sprayed. And even when we did not have rain, they were fine. I wouldn't consider them to be water hogs once established. But that could be because of our red clay soil that retains moisture.

The one DA that I want that I can't get to grow is PA. This is my third one. I'd even put up with octopus canes.

His microclimate (and Microclimate is vital in all parts of California) is far hotter and drier than mine (even tho it's not hot and dry enough to suit him.) I, by contrast, am spending my spring in a fog bank, and loving it.

What we SHARE is cr*ppy soil, alkaline water, periodic screaming Santa Ana winds that can reach ferocious levels, and drought.

Seasonal drought is NORMAL here. All of our normal rain falls in the winter months. If we don't get it then, we are (literally and figuratively) TOAST. So plants are not washed by the rain. And when things get tough, we are not permitted to wash them with sprinklers or garden hoses.

But then, we don't have winter chill . . . :-)

Jeri In La La Land

Thanks Kim, for the info. you gave on Pat. She has no blackspots here, but plenty of fried blooms. I'll switch her full sun place with Christopher Marlow (he gets too rowdy in partial shade). I'll move her in cold fall. The spring frost made my roses into dwarfs, including Pat.

One spring I planted geraniums and tomatoes earlier than our last frost date of May 30. They were stunt for good by the frost. Geraniums the size of mice, and tomatoes the size of mums. From that time on I planted my annuals on June 1.

Eglantyne doesn't look good in England either. There are plenty of pics. of Eglantyne disfigured by blackspots. Krista informed me that Eglantyne is related to Conrad Ferdinand Meyer. If I had known it, I would not had bought Eglantyne twice! So much for my foolish nose went bonkers over its scent.

Some times the right plant for one is the wrong for another. I just want to avoid the rusty and massive, I spent years battling a bogusvilla (okay Bouganvilla) I finally won, we still have two, one stays small and the other I prune-it would be gone too but mom likes it)

Tammy

This is how my Wise Portia looks like in partial shade, 4 hours of sun, but temp. above 80. Yes, it's healthy but 2 fried flushes?

This is how Pat Austin looks like today at 100 degrees temp. All 15 blooms are fried, the last flush got fried at temp. around 80's. She gets some evening shade:

This is the type of rose I want for next year: Crimson Glory Hybrid Tea still perky in full sun, 100 degrees:

I won't plant roses just to sacrifice them to the sun.

Strawberryhill, I began pollinating blooms in February. It is now the first of July and my roses are finally starting to take a hot weather rest. Whatever annuals I intend to plant had better be in the ground by March or they may not make it. Kim

Likewise, Golden Celebration, which also doesn't want to be mucked about with much. But of course, it is much larger.

The Dark Lady -- on her own roots, she isn't a strong grower, but she's not huge. The blooms aren't produced in great numbers, but they are lovely. Ditto the caution on late-season rust, but otherwise, generally good.

But -- Otherwise, for what you're doing, I might be more inclined to the bush form of Mlle. Cecile Brunner. Or maybe White Cecile Brunner (See Image). Or Perle d'Or . . .

OR think about 'International Herald Tribune.' Another "don't kill it with care" rose, that loves Southern CA, and stays very very small.

Jeri

International Herald Tribune is another rudely healthy one here. The individual flowers don't last long, but there are usually so many ready to take their places, it doesn't matter. And, the thing roots like a weed! So, creating more is never an issue. Week's budded them on patio standards for Pixie Treasures one Mother's Day. Laurie had them absolutely gorgeous in full flower in three gallon cans. Every one sold out for the holiday. Three foot trunks with easily two foot in diameter heads of solid violet. If any of these are to your liking and hardy enough for your climate, they're worth looking in to. Kim

In my case, the prime candidate for that distinction would be Harlow Carr, the only rose I've ever deliberately shovel pruned. I just found the flowers and bush unacceptably ugly - ratty scruffy little 50-cent-piece-sized pom poms on a gangly horribly thorny bush with no gracefulness to the branches or blooms even after 4 years in a prime location. It looked like a sickly chrysanthemum with teeth, and frankly my pink pom-pom mums were more attractive flowers by far.

Beyond that, I probably wouldn't try Falstaff again because it's marginally hardy in my zone and there are better "purple" Austins, with the same true for Radio Times and pink Austins. If The Generous Gardener would ever do me the courtesy of dying, I wouldn't replace it. It's only generous in its first spring flush, and it takes up too much garden space deciding if and when it wants to put out another insipid beige bloom anytime later in the season.

Having been suitably negative about a few, I do like virtually all the Austins I've had, and their survival rate is considerably better than most classes of roses I plant.

Cynthia

So far, the only Austin rose I've ripped out was Ludlow Castle, which was just a weakling from the beginning.

I'm current wrestling with deciding whether to rip out Gertrude Jeckyll, who is lovely in early June, but is a naked wonder in my garden right now. She's three years old but has not been healthy any of those three years. I suspect part of the problem is the shade of MAC who I allowed to grow too freely...cascading down and shading other plants. That's been corrected, so I think I may just give Gertie another year to prove herself.

Constance Spry had the opposite problem - a little too robust for my small garden. I'm experimenting with pruning her hard into a tall, freestanding shrub, but I don't think she likes it.

St Cecilia is a rose that performed beautifully for me until I moved her a few years back. She's thrown up a lot of nice canes since then, but has never bloomed as heavily as she did before the move. It just goes to show, a good rose in one location might be a dog in another spot.

Charles Darwin is a rose that's grown slowly in my garden for several years. For the first three years, he was nothing but skinny stems with the occasional huge, fragrant bloom that would weigh the stem to the ground. In the past two years, he's decided to put on some nice timber and is turning into a respectable shrub rose. It's that sort of story that encourages me to be patient (or weak) with my roses...hoping that with good care they'll develop into something decent. If it weren't for Charles Darwin, his friends Radio Times and Abraham Darby might have hit the compost bin this year.

Ingrid

And it looks like my 3-in-1 Molineuxs which have been star performers for several years in my garden are not going to survive this summer. One of the 3 is definitely dying (I don't know why) and the other two aren't looking very perky, to say the least.

Like I said, so sad. And definitely too hot for too long. I'm now beginning to wonder how many casualties I'll have before this long HOT summer is over.

Kate

We may have to feel our way through the coming decades, and learn to garden adaptively. What has been true for decades past may not be true in decades to come.

But I hope some people will always grow roses.

Jeri

I've killed two Graham Thomases as little own-root things due to heat stress or a really quick need for water. I know to water my roses, obviously, but I'm glad to hear he may be especially picky about it. I didn't think I treated him badly! He was in a very hot spot, too. So far, the best one I have for taking the heat is Teasing Georgia. I love that rose!

Actually, my Pat Austin is really great about heat and water, too! But I have her where she gets more shade than you'd usually put roses. That was a lucky bit of laziness there :) I never have to fuss with her at all.

Pink Gate looks tempting - I'm sucker for thornless roses. Kim, Pink Gate's bush looks reddish in your pic. - do the leaves turn red in the fall?

Thanks, Buford, about Pat Austin: someone wrote that Pat Austin likes alkaline soil, that's why I bought it. Once planted, Pat actually likes neutral soil because she gave tons of blooms when I gave her just a touch of sulfur, since my soil pH is 7.7.

Thanks, Taoseeker, for the info. you gave "Have potatoes one year and it will loosen the soil like a team of gardeners with shovels and machinery. Then mixed green manure plants with deep roots." What's green manure plants with deep roots? You are right that plants do a better job of breaking up hard clay. Last year I killed a dozen tall summer phlox clumps (clustered roots). Yesterday I was digging in that area - the soil is nice and crumbly. Calendula works better because it's easier to kill them, and they are not invasive. Since people always notice my Calendula before my roses, I realize that there are perennials that can withstand heat and put up a spectacular display, and I don't have to water them. Here's some pics:

White and red clover is good for green manure, and crimson clover is an anual alternative. If you have the chance to grow alfalfa in a spot for a few years it is very good, but not the best as an anual. I think you might have to try out what will work, barley, buck wheat, flax and lupines are good. If you think you can handle comfrey it is great, but it might require a bit of weeding when you want it out of the beds. Stinging nettle is not bad either but requires good gloves. The trick is to choose plants that will grow, which in the worst case are weeds and gradually advance from there.

I promise not to sidetrack anymore ;-)

There are few Austins that stand up to the 100 degrees summer heat and very healthy in my alkaline soil: Radio Times, Mary Magdalene (compact), Evelyn (big producer), Scepter d'Isle, Charles Darwin, Lilian Austin, Golden Celebration, and Christopher Marlowe (a crawling mess). Their blooms don't fry like Pat Austin or Wise Portia.

My biggest problem with Austin is: their scent go away in hot weather, and their large size demands more water than compact hybrid teas, which have stronger scents in hot summer. I fell for the hype over William Shakespeare 2000 and I'm totally disappointed in his scent: smells like funeral home rotten flowers, and I can't stomach the bloom's color.

I no longer go with the hype and the crowd: like getting the latest Austin, or being brainwashed by advertising. It's more fun to find buried treasure, like Kim Rupert's Annie Laurie McDowell, which has the best lilac/lavender scent that I have ever sniffed at the rose park' over 1,000 bushes, and my own garden. Annie's health, zero thorns, and constant blooming put Austins to shame. My Austin "Queen of Sweden" is like a thorny porcupine compared to Annie.

Question for Jeri and Kim: How's the scent on International Herald Tribune, and can I cut its branch for the vase? It looks like a buried treasure. Thank you.

Jeri

*** KIM -- We're going to remove two scrawny Dark Ladies, and replace them with Lynnie. I am at last out of patience, and ready for a rose there that will just grow and bloom.

Ambridge Rose and WS 2000 are two others I grow. Those two also do pretty well here.

WS2000 got pruned way back after cane die back two winters ago and it's taken awhile for it to outgrow that. It does stay pretty clean and the colors here are lovely. AR seems to like to be well fed.

One thing I appreciate about Heritage and Ambridge is their tolerance for wet weather; this year's constant rains have not spoiled the blooms, which is a huge plus for me.

My other Austin, Pretty Jessica is a small own root rose that has more bs problems, but it's very young.

I am not a huge Austin fan, but do love Heritage all spring and summer. AR has a beautiful spring flush and I'm hoping will bloom more as it gets older.

In another raised bed which I ordered brand new dirt this year, the Austins in full sun are upright with stiff and strong canes. Good soil and full sun makes a big difference.

What Clair Martin did at The Huntington to be able to grow them in garden beds was to drive tall stakes around them and peg and self peg them. Bending their canes around the stakes and even tying them back to themselves resulted in dense thickets of plant, but also generated many flowering laterals. If you don't have walls against which to grow the worst of the octopus types, driving tall stakes into the ground like fence posts behind them, then using their octopus arms like the fence railings along the stakes to create a split rail fence type shape, can permit you tremendously greater flowering capabilities. Kim

Austins are hardy to zone 5b, thus are vigorous in my zone 5a and can get very big. Abraham Darby at the rose park is at least 5' x 5'. The floribundas and hybrid teas are much smaller than Austins due their being less hardy, thus more cane-die-back in the winter. In the spring time Austins are huge, while many hybrid teas are under 1 foot tall, still recuperating from zone 5a winter. I was looking at the pics. of my hybrid tea garden 15 years ago - some are the same size as an annual flower. Austins are definitely large shrubs in zone 5a, and demands more water.

There's variation in the same climate: Half an hour drive is my previous garden with acidic soil, mulched with acidic pine bark. Back then all my roses were infested with blackspots, despite spraying, but I didn't have JB.

Now in my present house on an alkaline soil with limestones and water high in calcium, I have zero diseases on my roses, but plenty of JB. I had mildew with only one rose, and solved that by watering overhead with tap water high in calcium. The mildew went away despite previous failures with tons of water at the base.

I finally figured out why overheading watering solved mildew when I found this info. "Lime is calcium oxide. When lime reacts with water, calcium hydroxide or slaked lime results. Calcium hydroxide is an additive in fungicides and in anti-mildew and anti-microbial formulas".

Glamis CAstle was an unattractive mildew magnet. Gets my vote for worst of the Austin ouevre. The specimin I saw in an Ohio garden looked just as bad.

Gertrude Jeckle. I am not interested in ten foot high plants whicn have a fringe of blooms on top of the canes. I have the same objection to Queen Elizabeth.

Heritage. Flowers last maybe half a day.

Pat Austin. That pretty orange, and I love, love orange roses, fades in the hot sun to a filthy pink color which I found gross and disgusting.

Sceptered Isle grows both up and out at a prodigious rate, and IMO, is best used on large estates or public parks.

I SPed some others which simply did not bloom in my conditions.

GT I love, and am willing to fuss with. GJ, no.

Thank you, Nastara, for your honesty. I'm in zone 5a just like you, and my liking Scepter d' Isle turned into resentment: That bush cause 2 injuries an hour ago. I got it from Chamblee's mid-May. It spreads 3 feet wide in less than 2 months, rather than 2.5' as described in Austin Catalog. Hubby cut a wooden post to restrain him. I hammer the wooden post in and got a sliver painfully imbedded in my finger, then Mr. Scepter pricked me on my knee!

I'm done with spreading Scepter. It will cool down to 80's tomorrow, I'll banish him to the swamp, and put Roseseek's thornless Lynnie in that high-traffic place. Lynnie blooms more, better color, better shape, and more compact.

Thanks, Terryjean, for your warning about Munstead Wood's far reaching embrace. I found another-hidden treasure with heavenly scent: Basyes Blueberry. It has a delightful wild-rose scent, which reminds me of wild rose in the meadow. Basyes Blueberry is 100% thornless, upright, pretty foliage & flower, and smells BETTER than Scepter d'Isle regardless of the weather. All my Austins lose their scents in hot summer.

Gives me ideas on how to train any of the ones I already have if they decide to become octopi

Maybe what is a negative to one person can be turned around to be an asset to another.

Strawberryhill - Pat was grafted. I never got a clear reply from the nursery about which rootstock they use, but later on I read somewhere that many roses in Israel are grafted on rosa indica, so perhaps it was rosa indica?

The recommendation here is to keep the bud union 5 centimetres above ground. Also, there's no winter dieback here (sometimes there's no winter to speak of), and all the grafted roses I planted in January hit the ground running & exploded into full splendour. I didn't know roses could grow that fast.

My Pat picked up speed after I potted her with the intention of passing her on to any taker. I dumped her in the shade of my hedge, facing east-north. She got direct sun from 7 AM till about 13 PM. In her original spot she got 3-4 more hours of direct sun because my flametree leafed out pretty late this spring and started shading that part of the garden only in June. She "chased" the sunlight by putting out those long canes. The blooms were extremely lovely, which made her drooping habit all the more irritating. When the good qualities of something or someone become a source of irritation, the best thing to do is - dump. I don't mind bad qualities as a source of irritation.

My only other Austin, Golden Celebration, was the only rose that didn't take off at first. I had a feeling that the spot wasn't right for him, so I potted him and for a while he was a roving rose. I kept moving the pot to various spots and watched his reactions. Around Passover I transferred him in a 15-litre pot in the most north-facing corner of the garden. He gets about 4 hours direct sunlight - 9AM to 13:00 but it's a real blast plus he's right next to a concrete wall which bakes him. To my surprise he started putting out normal-size leaves. Now he's putting out buds for a third round of blooming. The first two rounds (5 blooms in the first & 6 in the second) didn't fry. The blooms were smaller than in the photos I saw on the Austin site and here and the color lighter, but the foliage is so nice (I don't believe I'm saying that a rose's foliage is NICE) - I'm sorely tempted to keep it. None of his blooms has fried so far.

I wish I had done what you did: put roses in pots first, and move them to various spots to test sun/shade preference. I dug up half-the-roses I planted in the ground for that reason.

Golden Cel. is a water-hog, mine is in partial shade. In the spring I scooped out dirt, made a huge basin around GC to collect water. I find that topdressing with alfalfa meal make roses pump out blooms quickly. My GC still has 2 blooms from the 2nd flush, and already formed at least 10 buds for the 3rd flush. Yes, I love Golden Cel's healthy foliage. It looks good even without blooms.

When the weather cools down in wet fall, Golden Celebration's bloom gets huge and the color deepens - quite spectacular.

My long awaited Summer Song is also healthy, but just seems to want to put out the octopussy arms with very few, small blooms. Its only just planted last fall and I adore the blooms when they come, so it stays.

James Galway and Scepter d'Isle are large shrubs that are healthy and bloom well for me. Molineaux and The Prince are smaller bushes but are healthy and bloom well. Lady of Megginch is doing well but wants to grow long arms.

I love Carding Mill and it does very well here. Hoping Graham Thomas may improve, but after reading the above posts - wont hold my breath. Still....cant get rid of a healthy rose....

Heritage is totally unimpressive/"blah" to me

Country Living is underwhelming, but I continue to give it space because my son picked this one out when he was a toddler.

That's about it for me-
Marleah

Kim, We are on the east side of the mountains so in summer we often get long dry periods..it rains more on the west side. I don't water my established plants much so am keeping my fingers crossed in this heat. Hoping for rain this afternoon.
Linda

I like the look of your GJ, it reminds me of BR Cant, which did very well for me this spring but alas, doesn't have a scent, at least not for me. I may try GJ, I have a spot where I'm going to pull out some butterfly bushes and a Huntington Pink Tea, which should be renamed Huntington balled black moldy Tea. I think GJ would look spectacular there if I can put in some kind of support to peg the octopus canes to.

This is discouraging, but since I have been wanting to plant a Teasing Georgia for some time now, perhaps I can get enthusiastic even though RRD seems to be moving faster than I do. : (

Kate

Mary Webb - small growing, nothing spectacular, not many flowers.
Fair Bianca - small growing, not a very robust constitution.
Heritage - gorgeous blooms, but soooo much rust to contend with!
Troilus - black spot prone.

I did have a rust problem with Abraham Darby but moved her and she is now beautiful and healthy....

Reading through these posts (I am new to Garden Web), I have to say that success really does depend greatly on what climate you are in. I am in New Zealands north island and we have fairly warm summers and only a few frosts in winter. My Austins all grow at least 50% larger than the sizes quoted on his website!

I would be checking the regions that people are in to ensure it is similar to yours before writing off a rose variety. There are many mentioned here that do brilliantly for me.

Also there are some (like Sharifa Asma in photo) that get the odd bit of black spot but are still worthy the effort for the sheer beauty of them.

But it leads me to think that a big part of what makes one rose the right one for one person and the wrong for another (assuming same zone/climate)has much to do with the style of rose bed the want. For some it seems to be a nice even border to a lawn with similar height/size bushes and others enjoy the larger less manicured style of beds. It is easy to see if you want the first style, a plant that wants the second style is not going to make you happy.

Of course no one wants a pile of rust, mildew, black spots and no flowers.

Abraham Darby, own root, flowers were so heavy that they were continually drooping right into the ground under the plant. That and it faded to kind of an ugly color.

Kim, I enjoyed reading your article on rose fragrance.
I only became interested in roses after complaining to my neighbor Luanne, that of the 200+ types of roses in my rental propertys' garden, only one or two had any fragrance at all. She said "You should try growing Old Garden Roses" I took her advice and rapidly fell truly madly and deeply in love with Old Garden Roses and reproductions.

Luxrosa

P.S. Which nurseries sell your roses?

The one that gave me so much disappointment was Glamis Castle. It was slow growing and covered in little savage thorns. The flowers it made smelled awful to me. I'm learning to live with myrrh but could not tolerate the GC version of it. I liked the color but that was all. In spring one year, it went to a new home across the street ( for free). It's the only rose in that yard .... well it was split into 2 plants when we planted them. I can see the white flowers if I stand on my sidewalk and look across the street. The house was sold and a retired couple bought it. It was just grass and palm trees. A crew comes by to mow and blow but they never clip the rose because it grows so very little. How the two plants are alive is a mystery. It is completely neglected by the owners yet still flowers off and on. The sprinklers don't hit it and it never gets diseased. DAs can be really tough I think, holding on when other roses such as HTs have bit the dust. For the first year I snuck over there and gave both plants handfulls of Gro-rite but now all they get are the breakdown of whatever bagged mulch he buys for the crew to spread on because he likes the way it looks ( big clean areas around each plant with bagged organic mulch up to the grass line).

Fair Bianca is another slooow growing white but I like the flower shape and the scent does not bother me and she doesn't have GC's thorn problem. She can stay.

One I am thinking of giving up this year is Anne Boleyn. I don't get any repeats just a few individual blooms in fall and I don't think the flowers are special enough to keep her as a once bloomer.

I have also tried Pat Austin 3 times - love the color, but the own root plant never thrived. Wonder if it would do better for me on fortuniana? Where could I get it on this rootstock?

I have declined to buy Tea Clipper and Port Sunlight for much the same reasons. I am guessing these lovely colors dont do well in Texas. Very disappointing. Howver Carding Mill is a champ - I just got an own root of that, and will probably buy another grafted from DA. Gorgeous rose!!

Your comment is ironic, Kitty. It was just earlier this morning I remarked to myself that crappy old Graham Thomas looks the best he has since last winter when there was about as much rain all winter as we've had in the past three weeks. English roses in my climate are just more "at home" when it's our "winter" and very many look wretched when it's hot and dry unless you water like it's free. That should really not come as a surprise. Look at where the seedlings were originally selected. Not that some can't find suitable conditions elsewhere, but it's difficult in the savannah to make plants happy which are content growing around hostas and ferns. Kim

I like her and since she grows where few roses would, she'll probably stay - unless the tree trimming we did last summer really lets in a lot of sun, then maybe Darcey Bussell will have a home.

Sherry

.

We're here on the Jersey Shore in zone 6. Humid humid, and more humid!

I work in a garden center where unfortunately, we only sell repeat bloomers... sad for the old rose crowd, but folks don't get that Austins are terrible out here in humid NJ. Most of them (except Graham Thomas, surprisingly) do poorly. We're in an area where there is a need for instant gratification, and people love the idea of English Roses. BUT, we're not in England, and I'll never buy a Austin rose again! Seen too much disappointment with them out here.

The only one I have had for years and love is "Constance Spry" One-time bloomer, it's magnificent. Big ol climber that you can cut down to the nibs in the fall.

Otherwise, out here on the hot jersey coast, old roses and one time bloomers are best.
pat

The best for me have been:
Carding Mill (have enabled a number of people in hot, dry areas since it keeps blooming its beautiful apricot flowers, is carefree, and a good-sized bush without the "arms".

The Dark Lady - spectacular and fast-growing, instant bloomer, totally healthy, huge flowers. Alas, in my alkaline soil she was an ugly in your face red, so she's gone. Others might not mind the color.

Pretty Jessica - still young but so far so good, on the small side, pretty and fragrant flowers

Cottage Rose - one of the early ones and thorny, but prune short every year and it will stay a small size and the flowers do well in the heat of summer

Sister Elizabeth - morning sun only but gorgeous lilac-pink flowers on a small, somewhat bending bush

Bishop's Castle - gorgeous and fragrant flowers, stays small and upright if pruned hard every year

Potter and Moore - another older one with the most sumptuous flowers, planted where there is very late afternoon shade, mannerly growth

The Ingenious Mr. Fairchild - still young but love the blooms, a little lax but no octopus arms

Wife of Bath and Chaucer - small, with delicate blooms, prefer afternoon shade, lovely and fragrant flowers

Sophy's Rose - constant bloomer, upright bush, buds are red but flowers turn purple, no fuss plant

International Herald Tribune - not an Austin; I took it out because it fried in a less than optimal position, it's grown again from the roots and has flowers now; we'll see. Love it otherwise.

Young Lycidas - a new plant but promising in growth habit, has buds after several months in the ground, disease free with some blackspot and mildew nearby on other roses.

Ingrid

I was thinking about most of the DA roses and how he selected them for form and fragrance and not the growth and health of the plants. Is he sending his plants to obscurity by doing this? I am thinking of the hundreds of fussy HTs no longer being grown and offered for sale. As newer DA look-a-likes come along without the size and health issues it seems to me that many of these roses are headed for obscurity.

But, here, everyone has a darn sprinkling system that shoots water at night and early morning. Rose killers!

Next year I am going to move Abe to a location that should be better, I picked too hot of a spot for him. Should he not make it....oh well.

He tried requiring introducers not sell the obsolete ones in order to purchase licenses to sell the newer ones, which worked for a while, with a few, but many of the obsolete roses were firmly entrenched here and often much better than the newer roses in many of our climates. He's regularly added varieties to his obsolete list in order to promote the newer patented ones. It's very much an encouraged planned obsolescence and it is a highly successful practice in making sure you sell only the new revenue generators. As long as there are newer patented product each year, why would their machine want it any differently? Kim

The other Austin I have and dont like just because it is boring to me is Bow Bells. It is a happy plant however, so I let it go- but there would be many others I would choose in it's place if I were able to revise my original choices.

Marleah

- William Morris: maybe had only a handful of beautiful blooms over several years (interspersed with far more awful flowers which balled and rotted), before sending up a thick 12 foot cane brimming with rhinoceros-esk thorns. He was promptly given the axe, but didn't go down without a fight - a very bloody fight I might add.

- Gertrude Jekyll - gorgeous flowers but a weak grower in our garden.

- Fair Bianca - now this one is absolutely beautiful in the bud - red with pretty sepals, and has perfect white flowers similar to the alba Mme Hardy. However, the bush has never passed 1 and 1/2 feet in height - and has a tendency to die back. On the other hand, she absolutely refuses to die completely which shows some character! Am giving her another chance in a new spot with lashings of manure and seaweed, so we'll see.. I'm just not sure I would go to the effort of buying her again if she doesn't make it.

- Grace: Maybe it didn't like our climate, but was a weak grower as well and it's flowers were NOT rich apricot - more an insipid peach/dirty white. Deceased as of last year.

- Comte de Champagne: What a disappointment! The flowers are described as 'cupped' but it would have been better put at 'ball-like', as they just barely opened to show the stamens. The colour was nice, but the bush one of those thorny cane-throwing affairs that brought back hideous memories of the vicious encounter with the diabolical William Morris. CdC was quickly introduced to the shovel before the axe was required on the scene.

On a more positive note there are some DA's I absolutely love and are worth growing:

- Strawberry Hill: what a beauty she is - no two flowers are the same but it just adds to her appeal. The foliage is dark green and very shiny (more so than any other rose I've ever had).

- Yellow Charles Austin: the bush is massive and vase-shaped (ours is about 5 feet high and wide), and it doesn't stop flowering.

- Graham Thomas: I know a lot a people say it can be a dog, but ours is fabulous. He's growing up our veranda and flowers most of the year.

- English Garden: it's only fault is the bush is incredibly thin and stick-like, but if you plant 3 close together it fixes this problem. This rose is absolutely beautiful, with red streaked buds and quilled flat powder-puff blooms.

- The Dark Lady: blackspot can be a bit of a problem, but get on top of that, and this rose is gorgeous.

- Golden Celebration: The flowers are enormous chalices of nose-sinking heavenly goodness, and the plant is large and arching (good in a large obelisk perhaps?)

I don't know how helpful this is, but I live in the Marlborough Sounds in New Zealand, and while some people think the climate down this way is similar to the UK, it is a lot warmer, with longer daylight hours. We have warm summers, and mild winters, and get thrashed with cold Antarctic fronts on a regular basis all year. We get a lot of rainfall here, but on the other hand this region (Marlborough) is ranked the sunniest in NZ - so the plants go crazy. We live right on the beach, and the roses all get a hit of salty wind on a regular basis. It all seems to come down to the soil - which is pretty sandy, but we've improved with a lot of compost, manure and seaweed. If the DA's are in good soil, they generally do really well.

Anyway, enough from me. Sorry this turned out so long! Hope this is helpful to someone out there :) The photo is of GT on our veranda. Kaz.

In agreement with all your happy picks, I have all of them although this is the first year for Strawberry Hill, but putting on fabulous growth so high hopes.

Incidentally if you are up this way I am in the Taranaki Garden Spectacular. Feel free to drop a line. My garden is La Rosaleda.

I had no idea about the Garden Spectacular - I may have to organise a trip up that way in November as it looks fantastic. Thanks for passing that info on! I love the pic you have on the taft site for the La Rosaleda listing - is that rose Anaïs Ségalas?

I forgot to mention before three other DA favourites - City of Timaru (aka The Crocus Rose), William Shakespeare 2000 (although the flowers do burn in hot weather), and Wildeve. They are all strong, good looking shrubby plants here. I've been looking at getting The Endeavour - do you have that one by any chance? It looks beautiful online, but I don't know anyone who actually has it.

Hopefully I get to see your garden! I'm a lover of old roses, so would be great to make it up there - think I will end up with serious garden envy.. All the best getting it ready for the festival :) Kaz

I love that photo of your veranda.

I find it interesting how roses do for different people in different areas.

If I were to travel anywhere from the US in times like we're experiencing, it would be to Australia or NZ. Thanks for posting!
ogrose

All the best for the coming rose season!

Kippy-the Hippy and ogrose - thanks for your comments! Have attached a couple more pics I took in our winter here in NZ - a few of the David Austin's carried on flowering which was a bonus. Kaz

Graham Thomas..

Hi ogrose, sorry, just noticed your post! Yes, we're pretty lucky here with our green spaces and reasonably temperate climate. I just googled your climate over there and yes, can imagine it's hot hot hot! I always admire those that persevere in less than perfect conditions, shows true gardening grit!!!

Kate

Being in a festival each year puts a bit of pressure on to have things looking good! I spray, but not overmuch. I make sure I get the first super shield spray on early in the season at first leaf growth, and then spray around every 4-5 weeks from then. Every couple of sprays I change to something else (such as guild or guardall). They get a very generous feed of hydra complex (cheaper alternative to nitrophoska blue) and blood and bone in spring, then another hydra complex feed in summer. In spring I finish with a thick layer of grunt (treated pig manure) which acts as a great looking mulch (keeps weeds down), and the plants seem to love it. Lasts the year.

I think keeping them well fed and healthy is the key to avoiding things like blackspot, or at least keeping it to a minimum. By most peoples standards spraying 4-6 weekly is pretty minimal.

Choosing healthy varieties goes a long way too. I give roses a couple of years, and if they don't perform or are sickly they're out! Hence most of the roses in my garden (all 400ish!) are pretty healthy and robust, and incidentally 95% of them are David Austin varieties!

Hope this helps!

I'm sorry if I misled you, but the packing up and moving was meant jokingly--as a compliment to the beautiful roses you grow in your country. Guess the "joke" part didn't quite make it through cyberspace, did it. : (

Anyway, it is very interesting to hear about gardening practices in other countries and I certainly wish I were close enough to you that I could drop in some day and view nearly 400 Austins! That rates another Wow! : )

Kate

Are there no similar Austin offspring bred in each country?

I'm attaching a pic of Onkaparinga, the pale apricot rose in the vase. The pink one is Nahema.

Carding Mill and Mary Rose are my best DA. I have about 22

They grow giant octopus arms that won't bloom regardless of how much whacking or pegging I do. It's been going on like that for two summers now so just a week ago, they got the boot to make room.

As for my own experiment - I bought Tea Clipper and Queen of Sweden, meaning both to be short bushes in my back garden close to a fountain. Last summer we had a few blooms but they're turning out to be much taller. Must be those British genes combined with our long growing season. We'll see if they make the cut after this summer.

Heritage, Brother Cadfael, and James Galway grown as climbers are the only ones that works. Probably because they're supposed to grow long arms. Heritage in particular is super bendy as well.

Also, as a side note - I've gone and smelled many of the Austins at a commercial grower close to here and find that although they flowers looked beautiful, they just did not suit my nose! Quite a few of them smelled just plain 'stinky'. I'm sorry that's not a great adjective =)

So far the faves (all non-DA) in my garden in terms of scent and bloom are: Red Eden and Angel Face (amazing fragrance and crazy growth).

Josh

I have already shovel pruned Claire Austin. The blooms don't have that wow factor.

Young Lycidas was a disappointment too. The flowers look too blousy for my taste - reminds me of a tea / china rose.

I am really impressed with Wisley 2008. This rose is much prettier than The Alnwick rose. The only thing that is lacking is the scent. But the flowers are worth growing for.