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aquaeyes_gw

Danger on the horizon...

AquaEyes 7a NJ
9 years ago

I decided to change things up a bit and take different routes while walking to work this Summer. I live in, well, let's just say a "not very affluent" area, being a college-town populated by renting students and low-income families in houses packed closely together, front yards being tiny and often barely tended. And this has become a dangerous situation for me -- because as I passed these untended tiny patches between houses and sidewalk, I saw several roses with clear signs of RRD.

And I don't mean the "possibly herbicide damage" signs. I mean unbalanced, twisting, multi-forking, fat new growth with excessive red prickles (even red prickles coming out of leaves) on some parts of well-established roses -- while other parts of the same plants appeared normal.

Thus far, I haven't found any on my street -- interestingly, very few houses on my street actually have even one rose -- but I wonder if it's just a matter of time before one of those infected mites gets blown into my yard. I check my garden every morning with my first coffee of the day, so I'm pretty sure I can catch it early if it ever appears. But even still, it struck a blow.

I moved to this town two years ago not because it's a "wonderful place to live." I came here because I wanted to go to grad school here, but I couldn't live in ugliness -- so I set out to bring some beauty into my little pocket. Building this garden has been enjoyable, and I am looking forward to next year's "leap", but seeing the RRD along my mile-long walk to work left me with a sinking feeling, as though the ugliness of apathetic "other residents" is fighting its way back to reclaim my yard.

It made me remember talks with my landlord about what I wanted to do to improve the lawn here. He said "the thing about lawns is that they're a never-ending battle if your neighbor doesn't care about his lawn -- and his weeds keep sending seeds over the fence." Seeing the RRD was like an echo of that sentiment -- and has me longing for the day when I live on enough acres that neighbors no longer matter.

I'm not giving up! I'll do what I can to maintain a little bit of beauty here, if only for my own sanity and enjoyment, for as long as I'll live in this house. This post is merely me venting a bit -- sort of like shouting into a pillow.

:-/

~Christopher

Comments (35)

  • cath41
    9 years ago

    Christopher,

    Can you contact your state (county?) agricultural agent about the issue and maybe take it to the local newspaper? Perhaps if people knew the damage it could do and could recognize it, it could be eradicated or at least controlled in your area. If you could get the local media interested, they could print (or show if TV) what it looks like. Images can have great impact as well as educational value.

    Cath

  • melissa_thefarm
    9 years ago

    I like Cath's advice. Also I understand the feeling, though thank Heaven we don't have RRD here. I spend my life fighting to keep the wild clematis, brambles, artemisia and other assorted baddies on our neighbors' adjoining property from spreading into our own land. Good luck, and perhaps you can do some good for everybody!
    Melissa

  • frances_in_nj
    9 years ago

    Hi Christopher, I live quite near to you - I'm about 20 minutes south of New Brunswick. And I have to tell you that sadly, there is tons of RRD in our area. If you ever take a hike along the Delaware and Raritan Canal tow-path, or if you ever hike in some of the wonderful open space areas such as the Griggstown grasslands preserve, you will see lots of wild multiflora, and a lot of it is infected. Its really depressing, and the scale of the problem is such that I don't know that it could be controlled very easily. Not to mention that unless it threatens a commercial crop of some kind, I doubt we could get anyone in "official-dom" to devote the resources and expenses needed to deal with such a problem. If you can get local media interested, it certainly can't hurt; and if you can educate neighbors, that's good too. But I think the best we can do is be vigilant in our own gardens. I have been living with this scourge for a number of years, and yes, I have lost roses to RRD, but I still have over 200 roses that are beautiful and give me (and my neighbors!) great joy. So hang in there, be watchful, and don't be discouraged!

    All best,

    Frances

  • true_blue
    9 years ago

    Christopher each of us at one point is faced with different "threats", challenges growing roses.

    I faced some this year, from pests to providence! And each time like you I had a "shouting into the pillow" period.

    However, soon after I was looking for more original/ practical ways of dealing with it. It was sort of fun.

    I'm sure with your creativity and practical suggestions (like Cath's) you'll find a solution...

    And for now you can simply enjoy your roses!

    - Bob

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    9 years ago

    A spray bottle of Roundup under your coat on a dark, moonless night?

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    Maybe this offers the incentive to start propagating and sharing your collection so should you get rrd you already have replacements or the opportunity to replace

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    A while back (I have a vague memory) there was talk of spraying rose plants with Wilt-Pruf, as a protection against these mites.

    I admit to not paying too much attention, since RRD is not a present danger here in my part of Southern California . . . nevertheless, it stuck in my mind.

    Does anyone know if that proved after all to be even partially effective? If it would be worth Christopher trying it?

    Jeri

  • muscovyduckling
    9 years ago

    I second the round-up suggestion. Seriously. No-one would even care, by the sounds of it, if their diseased roses died.

  • michaelg
    9 years ago

    Christopher, I can tell you from experience that it matters a lot how close the source of infection is. I got along for years with RRD a half-mile away and didn't have trouble until it was in the immediate neighborhood, and then it was terrible.Now after a clean-up campaign, I've gone over a year with no new cases. Of course, a rose can be infected from miles away, but that would be infrequent.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    I love the Round-up idea -- but I think that if caught, you could be in a world of hurt.

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I'm not about to go walking down those side streets after dark -- remember where I'm living. When I walk home after work, it's down the well-lit main road. Even so, I pass several "working girls", if you know what I mean. I can't imagine what goes on in the shadows down the side streets.

    So there will be no Round-Up in the night for me. I'm going to just keep on doing as I'm doing, and I'll "make copies" of hard-to-find things just in case. But in reality, I have to remember that I'll be living here only a few years -- I know it sounds harsh, but when I've moved on, whatever happens, happens. I can always start another garden.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

    This post was edited by AquaEyes on Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 17:23

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Oh yes. And you will have your current experiences to guide you, when you do.

  • meredith_e Z7b, Piedmont of NC, 1000' elevation
    9 years ago

    Spray strong hairspray on the bad branches? Maybe walk a bit like an eccentric while you do it, in case anyone wonders what you are doing ;) It might help! I'd leave a little, nice note about it, myself... along with the hairspray treatment. I really would.

    They might not have the time or energy to care that much about it, but you never know. Maybe they hate the rose anyway!

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago

    The wilt proof idea is based on the "fool the mite" premise. If the mite lands and doesn't perceive that it's on a rose, it moves on. If it lands on a surface that is wax rather than rose, it won't know it's on a rose and it will move on.

    Kay, out on a mountain top in Arkansas, sprayed wilt proof often and had maybe one rose sicken with RRv in six years. From her location and disease pressure and air patterns, she should have had a lot more. Jean over in Nashville also had some success with Wilt-pruf.

    The two things I do/have done is redesign my rose beds to increase air flow and to have beneficial insects around.

    RRv is here. The mites are moving into New England. I wonder when the Senators from New England are going to start asking questions. (The TWELVE Senators). Maybe that concentration of Senators might have some angry constituents.

  • Ninkasi
    9 years ago

    Hi Christopher, I looked a grad school in New Brunswick 3 years ago so I know the neighborhood you are in somewhat. Given the location, I am so inspired by your attitude about making your own spot of beauty there. You have developed such a nice collection of roses and you have been so patient with them. I am really pulling for you and hope you are lucky with the RRV in the neighborhood. Good luck and all the best.

  • Poorbutroserich Susan Nashville
    9 years ago

    Put the Round Up in soda cans. Wearing gloves, just give the infected stuff a sprinkle as you nonchalantly saunter by.
    Prepare for the worst (propagate) hope for the best (soda can).
    Maybe you could pay the working girls to do it?
    Susan

  • erasmus_gw
    9 years ago

    What about sending a note by mail to the owners of infected roses and give them information and about RRD? 1. They might have more than one rose and if they know their infected rose is a danger to their other roses they may be more than willing to get rid of it. Also, if they know it'll eventually die anyway they might go ahead and get rid of it. 2. They might be nice people who don't want anyone else's roses put at risk. I would hope for the best and give communication a try. I have this same situation in my town, though the sick rose is some distance away. I am hesitant to say anything to the people but think it would be worthwhile , not just for my own roses but all the other roses around.

  • fogrose
    9 years ago

    Dear rose lovers. I am shocked to hear all of you advocating the use of Roundup. There is now so much scientific proof of how harmful it is ESPECIALLY TO THE BEES.

    please see
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herbicide-p/

    http://naturalsociety.com/monsantos-roundup-poison-125-times-dangerous-regulators-admit/

    If you care about all life on this planet you will NEVER use Roundup again and you will let every other gardener know this as well.

    Sorry for the rant but this is a very critical ecological issue.

    Diane

    Here is a link that might be useful: danger to bees AND monarch butterflies

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I appreciate the advice about how to handle RRD-infected roses elsewhere in the neighborhood, but the houses with them already have evidence of the people living there not really caring how the fronts of their houses look. I'm talking about weeds everywhere, trash not picked up, etc. Perhaps at one time, someone lived there who cared enough to actually plant the roses, but I'd wager that the owners simply make sure everything is up to code and collect the rent.

    While this isn't how things appear on my particular street, anyone familiar with New Brunswick will know that some parts are kinda run-down -- and this is where the RRD goes unchecked. And this is why many "rose people" balk at the various "easy care" roses being sold (like Knock-Out) -- many people buy them BECAUSE they don't know much about roses, and thus won't know to get rid of them if they get infected.

    In any case, I'm going to investigate the wilt-proof sprays Jeri mentioned, and keep a vigilant eye on my own yard. This came at an already frustrating time for me -- July and August are a bit slower at my job, so I've promised myself to avoid spending extra money on the yard until I've saved for a car and can find better employment that's beyond walking distance. I keep seeing things that I'd like to do, but they'll have to wait until I'm driving again.

    Thanks again for the ideas and for simply "being there" when I needed to vent.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

    This post was edited by AquaEyes on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 12:49

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago

    Christopher,
    Your problem is shared by at least one major botanical garden and they don't have a solution to the neighborhood, either.
    Fogroses, read about Rose Rosette Disease and then pontificate. Do native roses rank lower than bugs? I don't know, but I do know that an incurable, contagious disease that takes out mature woody plants also merits the concern of some of us.

  • henry_kuska
    9 years ago

    Fogroses, thank you for your warnings about the suggested use of Round Up.

    I can picture someone living in one of those homes putting their pet (or even small child) in the yard (they had no idea that a poison had been put there).
    As can happen either the pet or small child either eats something with Round Up residue on it or gets the residue on its hands or other parts of the body. I have provided a 2014 reviewed, accepted scientific paper which includes a summary of what has been reported in the earlier literature (please read the introduction).

    "Glyphosate is a herbicide with great toxicity, and is more commonly known as Roundup and is formulated as isopropylamine salt. The aim of this study was to investigate the the possible effects of the herbicide glyphosate on the renal tissue of female rats."

    renal - kidney

    http://jmj.jums.ac.ir/files/site1/user_files_204932/eng/admin-A-10-1-108-767f126.pdf
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you are interested in reading about other recent research, here are 2:

    July 31, 2014

    " In conclusion, glyphosate appears to modulate the fungal community. The reduction of IgM antibodies and LBP indicates an influence on the innate immune system of animals."

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00284-014-0656-y

    AND

    "Glyphosate residues in different organs and tissues as lungs, liver, kidney, brain, gut wall and heart of malformed euthanized one-day-old Danish piglets (N= 38) were tested using ELISA. All organs or tissues had glyphosate in different concentrations. The highest concentrations
    were seen in the lungs (Range 0.4-80 üg/ml) and hearts (Range 0.15-80 üg/ml). The lowest concentrations were detected in muscles (4.4-6.4 üg/g). The detection of such glyphosate concentrations in these malformed piglets could be an allusion to the cause of these congenital
    anomalies. Further investigations are urgently needed to prove or exclude the role of glyphosate in malformations in piglets and other animals."

    Krüger M, Schrödl W, Pedersen Ib, Shehata AA (2014) Detection of Glyphosate in Malformed Piglets. J Environ Anal Toxicol 4: 230.

    http://omicsonline.org/open-access/detection-of-glyphosate-in-malformed-piglets-2161-0525.1000230.pdf

    Here is a link that might be useful: link to first 2014 scientific paper.

  • KnoxRose -7a
    9 years ago

    Anntn7b & anyone else who cares, they are absolutely not "just bugs". We are talking about the pollinators of over 70% of our crops here. I don't know about you, but I like eating food, and would like to continue to do so... I also like it when our country is not in the poorhouse because we've killed all the pollinators and can no longer grow crops.. Not to mention they are the pollinators for all the naturally occurring plants that literally countless wild species feed on. It isn't in the news much because huge corperations like Bayer pay big bucks to hide the facts from the eyes of the typical American citizen, but chemicals like glyphosphate - aka roundup- have been proven time and time again, most recently by a little university called Harvard to be the main cause of the huge epidemic of "colony collapse disorder" that is killing all the bees. An estimated 1/3 of the bee population of the US has been impacted. And just to be clear it is not just that the chemical poisons the one bee that lands on that plant, that bee takes it back to the hive and then it kills the entire hive, thousands of bees can die from one infected bug. This is a HUGE DEAL, and anyone who truly cares about the future of this plant should take note.

    Ok, end rant. :) sorry for the rant but I am very passionate about this topic.

    As per Christopher's issue, I have a lot of sympathy for your situation, I live very close to a big university, so all the houses around me are multi unit rentals that do not give a single squat about their yards, nor mine, I can pick up a whole bag of garbage from my yard every week when school is in. luckily for me though these are pretty lucrative rental properties and the owners have the yard cared for decently (well, they mow and weed eat it that is) but the bad thing is that they are all just bare grass yards, no trees, no nothing in many of them , some of them missing large patches of grass (Probably too much foot traffic, front yard tailgating, and spilled beer) luckily that means my chances of RRD are slim (at least I hope), that is my one advantage living in this crazy neighborhood. I truly wish you luck with your situation, I would probably try everything I could before communicating it to my neighbors directly, just because I would assume they would not be very willing t do anything about it themselves, but if I had to I might write to the owner of the home and ask their permission to get rid of the plant myself if it was that large of a threat to my garden. Good luck!

    Jessica

  • muscovyduckling
    9 years ago

    Oh. Well I guess the Round-Up idea is out, for many very good reasons. I have no other constructive suggestions, other than to enjoy your roses while you can, and propagate your little heart out!

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago

    I think the use of Roundup is excessive, but yelling at someone for using a tablespoon or so to kill a noxious weed needs to be put into perspective.

    Maybe Henry, our resident retired chemist, can tell us the equivalentcy of this. How many 8oz bottles of home-use Roundup can be produced from the 100 gallon drums of Roundup routinely produced and sold for treatment of the hundreds of thousands of fields of GM crops that are genetically modified to be resistant to Roundup?

    A major hybridizer of mini roses on the west side of our state used to get the roundup drums, cut them in half and use them as superpots for his mini parent plants. (Yes, they hold a lot more soil than halved whiskey barrels. )

    Those massive uses of Roundup IMO deserve the attention.

  • true_blue
    9 years ago

    Ann fogrose's comment was to all who recommended Roundup :-)

    From what I understand the colony collapse disorder is due to multiple factors and not limited to use of herbicide, but also fungicide, which in turn weakens the bees immunity to resist infection by a parasite. More or less like a stressed rose or any living organism, which can fall victim to any type of sickness.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Bees Exposed to Fungicide More Vulnerable to Nosema Parasite

  • henry_kuska
    9 years ago

    This is a very recent bee - glyphosate scientific research paper.

    Title: "Effects of field-realistic doses of glyphosate on honeybee appetitive behaviour"

    "We found a reduced sensitivity to sucrose and learning performance for the groups chronically exposed to GLY concentrations within the range of recommended doses. When olfactory PER conditioning was performed with sucrose reward with the same GLY concentrations (acute exposure), elemental learning and short-term memory retention decreased significantly compared to controls. Non-elemental associative learning was also impaired by an acute exposure to GLY traces. Altogether, these results imply that GLY at concentrations found in agro-ecosystems due to standard spraying can reduce sensitivity to nectar reward and impair associative learning in honeybees. However, no effect on foraging related behaviour was found. Therefore, we speculate that successful forager bees could become a source of constant inflow of nectar with GLY traces that could then be distributed among nest mates, stored in the hive and have long-term negative consequences on colony performance. "

    http://jeb.biologists.org/content/early/2014/07/23/jeb.109520.short

    Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

  • muscovyduckling
    9 years ago

    I keep thinking about this dilemma. This might be a naive suggestion (since we don't really have any neighbourhoods that are really properly scary in Australia, and also we don't have many guns here), but would it be conceivable to knock on some doors, explain to the residents what the problem is with their roses, and offer to dig them out yourself?

    I've found that people are pretty happy to accommodate requests like that, as long as they don't actually have to do anything themselves. It would be a lot of work for you, I know. And perhaps it's a totally laughable suggestion from me anyway, given the neighbourhood. I'm sorry if it is, I just don't really know what it's like to live around scary people.

  • KnoxRose -7a
    9 years ago

    I am truly sorry if I offended anyone here, I do not want to tell anyone what judgements they should be making for their own property. I do agree that things such as this on a small home-garden scale are nowhere near as impactful as the large scale commercial operations, but every little bit helps. I personally can't condone using something at home that I would actively try & stop any company from using to make their profit. It seems counter productive. That and I do not want the possibility of endangering any of my pets if they happen to get in my garden, or any one else's pets that wonder into my yard, or any of the birds that eat from my feeders.. and so on and so forth. If I can persuade anyone here to avoid chemicals as much as possible that is a small victory. I do not pretend to be an expert on the issue, but I have read enough to know that it is a big issue, it gets absolutely no coverage in the media, it is only getting worse, and very little is being done to find a solution. I truly hope that some of you might put some research into this topic because the impact it has on the environment affects all of us. Maybe if more people learn about the issue a change can be made. I added a link to a recent study from Harvard.

    Jessica

    Here is a link that might be useful: Harvard study on neonicotinoids.

  • fogrose
    9 years ago

    I appreciate all who expressed concern regarding Roundup. Bees are exceedingly important to the ecosystem and yes even a small amount is not to be treated lightly.

    I am a great lover of roses and realize what a tragic situation people find themselves in because of RRD. I am fortunate to live somewhere where it is not an issue and my heart goes out to all of you that have to deal with it but as others have said, if we lose the bees our food supply will crumble because of the bees' role in pollination.

    Diane

  • anntn6b
    9 years ago

    So, how do we deal with noxious plants that harbor contagious, incurable diseses?

    I don't think that there's an answer.

    When RRD first came east, I looked for protocols that might apply. I didn't find any.
    There are things that apply to crops....see the eradication of lime trees in private yards to protect the lime crop. But when it comes to people allowing sick plants to persist.....nothing. Fire Blight on Bradford Pear trees might come up serious enough in the future to cause something to be done, but for now, nothing.

    I had some hope that saving our native wild roses would be important, but most people don't care about wild roses, even in rose societies. So how is Sally Gardener going to care? And it takes a lot of Sallys to get legislators involved.

    Right now, I don't see any answers to the original problem in this thread, and I would hope that maybe some will arise, somewhere.

  • kittymoonbeam
    9 years ago

    I had just the quandry recently.Nearby apple trees that had fireblight were dying and also infecting my trees. I found out that my neighbors had trees that died and they never knew why. Also the drought has stressed trees and many fruit trees are being killed by beetles. I put some easy to read information about fireblight and beetles on a single sheet and left one at each house when I would go for walks. I haven't seen any fireblight recently but beetles have gotten my neighbors peach this year. I hope that even if the people who have an infected rose hesitate, the guy next door with only lawn may have read your paper and say hey you need to cut that down.

    I love bees too. And people. I wish crops sprayed with that bad stuff would have to be identified. If you want to avoid it, look for the green USDA organic mark with the circle or the Non GMO project mark with the butterfly on it.

  • roseblush1
    9 years ago

    Maybe I am the odd person out in the Round Up issue. I do use it sparingly to rid my property of poison oak as I can land in the hospital with just the start of a mild rash.

    When I use the product, I remove most of the top growth of the targeted plant, apply a concentrated amount by dripping Ru on the plant and then cover the whole thing with a black plastic bag and allow the hot temperatures in my summer climate to assist in killing the PO.

    I honestly think there is a proper time and place for herbicides. However, I do recognize that most home gardeners are not aware of the impact of most of the chemicals they use in their gardens and don't follow the same precautions.

    To me, it's a matter of educating myself and finding a way to cause the lease harm to the environment, including the bees, and to protect myself. Both are important.

    Smiles,
    Lyn

  • buford
    9 years ago

    Roseblush, great post. I think we all probably used RU to excess. But there are times when it's necessary. I have used it for Poison Ivy and other noxious weeds. But for general weeds, I now use Eco Smart, which is rosemary oil. It can irritate your skin, but it does the job and it's not toxic.

    and Ann is right. The real fight over RU is in GMO foods that are 'Round Up Ready'. Not only is the RU sprayed all over the crops, but it is sprayed on the food. RU is showing up in mother's milk. And of course, you can't fool Mother Nature, there are now RU resistant weeds. So they farmers have to spray more And, to scare you just a bit more, they are developing 2-4D ready food crops. I kid you not.

    Most corn and soybeans are now GMO, plus these two crops are in everything. High Fructose Corn Syrup, Soy Lechtin, etc. I would suggest anyone who is concerned about pesticide exposure not eat any grains, or only non-GMO food sources.

  • MiGreenThumb (Z5b S.Michigan/Sunset 41) Elevation: 1091 feet
    9 years ago

    RRD is present in South Michigan.
    It's often spectacularly displayed in the feral R. multiflora growing EVERYWHERE here where agricultural expanses are as frequently encountered as forests/hedgerows, and multiflora seems quite tolerant of a little shade.
    I did lose a Cardinal de Richelieu in 2005 to RRD. The growth is the most sickening thing one may possibly imagine.
    My Therese Bugnet of similar era is STILL going strong, however.
    A terrifying disease.

  • summersrhythm_z6a
    9 years ago

    Merit should kill all the mites, right?