Thanks!

Josh

I received it as a 1 gallon.

I specifically ordered it because of the pastel canary yellow.
I did not want a golden or bright shade.

Thanks! Where did you get your one gallon from?

Josh

It wasn't a band size, so I estimate it was a gallon.

On the other hand, Greg sent me propagating material of that particular selection, and I grafted it to 'Fortuniana'. Wowzers! It is easily the most vigorous rose I've ever grown, capable of completely inundating an 8x8x8 foot cubical arbor and developing a trunk the size of your leg in less than 8 months. The big, beautiful plants at ARE are on 'Fortuniana' roots, propagated by us back in 1991.

So best of luck with it -- you may be one of the lucky ones who find that it thrives under your conditions on its own roots. If not, and if you can find a grafted plant, you might want to try that as well, even if the rest of your garden is own-root plants.

On the other hand I saw a beautiful plant at the vintagegardens..com home garden, on their long trellis where all their yellow Tea-Noisette roses were grown, and it measured c. 20 feet tall by c. 12 feet wide and it stole my heart away. Sweetly scented golden roses, in mass profusion... all on a summers' day.

Good luck,
Luxrosa

.

Do you know where I may be able to find a Marechal Niel propagated on Fortuniana? I have had no luck this far. Perhaps I could sweet talk Mrs. Leong into budding it for me? :-)

Josh

I know Fortuniana is good here. We collected one from an old cemetery, and it goes halfway up our hill -- so I think it would really PUSH an otherwise shy rose in our conditions.

Jeri

If it is not too forward of me to ask, I would be interested in one of your grafted versions should one be available and it would be convenient for you. I have a shed that is begging to be eaten by this beautiful rose!

Mrs. Jennings,

How long did your plant take to become established and reach maturity? Does it bloom reliably on its own roots?

Josh

Pickering was once a source for MN on multiflora. Only a very few were available each season. It was a struggle for them to maintain the variety under their growing conditions, and they struck it from their list when they moved the operation from Pickering to Port Hope. In my garden (with attention to soil enrichment and pH levels), I found that MN performed well on multiflora -- certainly MUCH better than it did for me on its own roots.

If you're successful in acquiring a plant that thrives in your environment, plan ahead. Provide lots of space and a strong support. And if you should ever determine that your plant requires pruning, approach that task with great restraint and trepidation (ie, fear and trembling).

Early one spring, my 5-6 yr old MN entered what appeared to be a death spiral. I called a consulting rosarian in another state who was especially knowledgeable about OGRs. Her first question: "Did you recently prune the plant?" My answer: "Yes." Her response: "Well, you REALLY need to know what you're doing before you start pruning THAT rose." My plant struggled on, but never really rebounded. It's now gone. Perhaps MN isn't as finicky if it has the additional vigor that Fortuniana roots can provide.

Soil, heat, cold, or unknown?

I am an own-root snob, lol :)

My suspicions are simply that it does not develop roots which are as efficient as other cultivars. Ideally roses will grow a root system which can support its future growth before the growth occurs. The roots form, adequate nutrients are taken up and stored in the canes, and those nutrients are then used to push growth. That growth is maintained because the root system provides a consistent renewal of energy stores proportional to the growth and new energy storing capacity.

However since the root growth and efficiency system on MN is weak, it takes a while to build up this growing momentum, meaning the stores of energy in the plant are delicately balanced throughout the plant's life. As such, careful pruning must be used because removal of canes, which store energy, throws off this delicate balance. And without a strongly performing root system, the plant may rapidly decline as it lacks the ability to recover those nutrients in enough time to sustain the plant as a whole once it gets large.

The reason it performs so well grafted is due to replacing this poor root system with an artificial model which is much more efficient as uptake, recovery, and growth. I like you am an own root enthusiast, due to a hellacious and ongoing war with an incredibly invasive Dr. Huey, but in this case it would be prudent to graft this rose. While it seems this rose may contain the genetics to produce a beautiful plant, it may also lack the genetics to produce an adequate root system.

However, I by no means have any grounds for this claim and I do not even own this plant. Therefore, I would highly discourage anyone to take this post as authoritative or scientifically sound in any manner. Perhaps someone with much greater experience and knowledge may be able to confirm my hypothesis or reject it, but I will be the first to say that this post was merely "thinking out loud" based on my knowledge of plant biology.

For anyone wanting to graft it, It has been my experience, after more than 25 years of propagating it, that budding is not easy. Possible, but with a low success rate, and even the buds that live often don't make a nice clean union -- they'll have cracks or holes in them that will later rot out.

The method that has worked well for us is to bench cleft graft them -- that is, graft with a 2-3-leaf scion (leaves still attached) with a V-shaped wedge at the base, grafted into an unrooted cutting of 'Fortuniana with a vertical slit in the top to accommodate the scion wedge. Leave at least 2, preferably 3 or 4 leaves on the 'Fortuniana' section as well. Wrap with grafting rubber strips or plastic tape (rubber works better for me). Wound and hormone-treat the base of the cutting, and root the whole thing under mist, as the graft heals, in full sun. Under those conditions, we approach 100% success, with nice clean unions forming. This is a very popular method with 'Fortuniana' for other scion varieties as well, but with most other roses, I normally prefer to chip bud them. I just have not had a lot of success with chip budding MN. (T-buds are difficult with 'Fortuniana', since the bark tends to splinter and shred).

Maybe karma demanded that WE payed the price for V's larceny.

For the sake of science I would love to know what the soil composition, water regimen, sun exposure, and weather conditions surrounding VLakin's MN are. While there are the odd few MN which do perform like champs, I wonder if perhaps it is due to a variable we cannot control.

Josh

I bought an own root Marechal Niel probably 15 years ago from a local nursery that got their inventory from Chamblees. It was planted in a raised bed with rich soil and while it didn't grow huge it did well. After a few years time some near by trees grew large and in their partial shade it declined. When transplanted with great care it died.

Fairly recently I bought M.N. on fortuniana roots along with several other roses. They all did well except for M.N. Although I coddled it best I knew how it just sat there, grew very little and finally quietly passed away.

A nursery in New Braunfels,Texas had a huge specimen that grew well for a long time. I'm guessing it was own root as this was in the days before roses on Fortuniana roots were readily available. Then one year it was gone. The nursery owner guessed it was because of the heat and drought we were experiencing at the time.

It is among my very favorite roses and well worth a try especially if you find a grafted specimen.

By the way, I'm in San Antonio.

I planted it straight into Florida sand not knowing much about enriching soil. It was against a white house in the western sun with late shade. It just sat there for two years then sent out an eight foot cane which never bloomed or grew.

In another two years, we moved to this place and I dug up MN, brought it here in a bucket and planted straight into swampy sand, with limestone and toxic rubble fill. (I knew better, but was stressed for time and energy.) I looked for, and noticed no graft at this time. So I believe mine is own root.

It is shaded by a large oak and mostly gets sun in summer and fall. He took off, shooting canes all over and bloomed for the first time.

Since then, he blooms twice a year and continues to show health and vigor. However, due to his horrific thorns, I decided to move him so that hopefully he would grow into a tree and have more sun.

In preparation for that move, three years ago I pruned him back to one very long cane. Life intervened and he wasn't moved. He did recover and has once again leapt out in all directions.

I still intend to move him at some point. Perhaps this winter...

This is surely an unusual rose with a very unusual response to my butchery or perhaps I have a look-a-like instead. Duchesse d'Auerstadt maybe?

My rose:

1) I think another issue with this rose is that it probably has acquired a bunch of viruses over the years of being grown primarily budded (not necessarily RMV, but other little buggers that simply interfere with vigor). The variability with clones might have to do with their respective viral loads.

2) Another possibility is that there are two roses being grown under this name, which could account for the discrepancies with regards to vigor. One of the old references listed on HelpMeFind discusses that:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4102&tab=7&qn=5&qc=b
Look at the "Journal of Horticulture, Cottage Gardener and Country Gentlemen" reference from 1867.

3) If you do decide to go with own-root, I highly recommend trying my potting method. It's what I did for bands I got this Spring, and I'm astounded at how much almost all of them grew (a few that arrived REALLY tiny took longer). The medium was equal parts by volume of peat moss, Bovung dehydrated manure (from Home Depot, in the yellow bag), and hardwood mulch. If it comes really tiny, use a 1-gal pot. If it's got a little size, use a 2-gal. Sprinkle Jobe's Organic Knock-Out fertilizer in layers as you fill (1/2 cup for 1-gal, 1 cup for 2-gal). When filled, give a first-soaking with a fish/seaweed emulsion diluted at half the recommended strength (I used 1 tablespoon per gallon of water). The liquid gave a fast non-burning feed, the cow manure kicked in after, followed by the organic granular (based on how long they take to break down). The wood mulch in the mix allowed for air space but also held water like little sponges when it rained. I kept hearing how 'Jaune Desprez' would be very slow-growing, but mine really took off with this potting mix. I planted it at the base of my Japanese maple and fanned out its canes around the trunk. Laterals are shooting up all along them now, and it's blooming again (I decided to stop pinching flower buds for the rest of the year). I made a thread showing how some of mine were growing so fast:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0611414417374.html

4) If you want a rose that is somewhat similar to 'Marechal Niel', consider 'Ley's Perpetual', which is offered by Rogue Valley Roses. See links below, as well as its description at Vintage Gardens under the Tea-Noisettes:
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.17284
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/leys-perpetual

I almost got 'Marechal Niel' myself, just to try and see if I could luck out with getting it to grow. Then I realized "Ok, what if I do? Where would I plant it?"

:-)

~Christopher

:-)

~Christopher

One other observation I've made about this rose is that it is less forgiving of hard pruning than any other rose I know. Even a moderate pruning can kill it outright. And it may sulk for months over a very light pruning. It's just a weird rose.

Malcolm, isn't the one at Vintage Gardens from you? If theirs got to be big, I guess it must be possible. Maybe it's just too finicky to make it under "normal" own-root band rose care. I like the idea of challenging pets. Did I mention the 22yo male DYH amazon parrot who lives with me and has a history of attacking my former roommates? Did I mention I now live alone?

:-)

~Christopher

As Josh suggested, I tend to believe that this rose lives "on the edge" of carbon/energy balance more than do most, maintaining relatively little stored starch when on its own roots. That would be particularly stressful in hot climates (hence, Vintage should be able to grow it well on its own roots whereas we shouldn't). But that is likely not the full explanation, since there are known good and known very bad (dead) specimens in Texas, which of course is hot for part of the year.

:-)

~Christopher

Could any of those not-tested-for viruses that might possibly remain in a treated/tested rose ever visibly manifest themselves? If so, might the evidence of their presence resemble other, tested-for viruses? Thanks.

...and from the other side.

The heat has flushed the outer petals. In early summer, they are just yellow.
Daisy

Looking down on it from above.

Daisy