I'd love some bud wood of it, Jeri. Imagine what it might look like freshly budded and given some room, sun and water. It's from situations such as Camulos we're going to find the "incognito" survivors now. Kim

Remember my saying that I suggested -- pour a quart or so of water around the roots every week or so, and it might just live? Well, that was where I made the suggestion.

The reply was: "By the way, what is that big tree over there."

Remember my saying that I suggested -- pour a quart or so of water around the roots every week or so, and it might just live? Well, that was where I made the suggestion.

The reply was: "By the way, what is that big tree over there."

Virginia

You weren't hoping I'd offer a reasonable explanation, were you???

Virginia

You drive, I'll split gas!

And, yes. I know where things WERE, tho not all of them are there, anymore. It's pretty bad.

OH, WAIT! We'll have to find out when we can get in there. I need to research that. We CAN get to the dark red climber, though, and what's left of Red Radiance.

Virginia

I emailed Roseglen just now, asking them where they obtained the "real" one. It will be interesting hearing where they found it. Imagine being able to obtain this, then sending it with Barcelona for DNA testing.... Kim

I realize that it might still be the wrong rose, so I'm not getting my hopes up. Well, not too much...

I might have some mishpocheh living in or near Naples- I'll have to check. It's a 9-hour drive from here, so I can do it if it sounds like a legitimate quest.

I hope you get a response fairly soon... I am quite curious to hear the story behind the acquisition of their rose.

What would really be amazing? If a plant of a pre-1981 'FD' were located in Oz that looked like the Florida rose.

Pleasant musings...

Virginia

Do you think bluegirl will be interested in some budding practice if we can get cuttings?

BTW, the photo Roseglen uses is the same photo Angel Gardens uses on their site for 'FD' which is almost certainly 'Barcelona'. It's a bit curious that if the Roseglen folks think they have the original Tea rose that they wouldn't post a photo of their own rose, but perhaps the photo persists from their original 'Barcelona' days, and they haven't gotten around to updating the photo? Lots of people have trouble figuring out how to update web sites...

I mention that mostly in case anyone's looking at the photo and thinking it's 'Barcelona'. It probably IS a stock photo of 'Barcelona-sitting-in-for-Francis'.

Clearly, whatever they have now is different from what they had before- I'd love to know if it has long, egg-shaped buds...

Virginia

I hope David or someone else can maybe find another candidate for true-Francis-status so that we can compare and contrast.

Fingers crossed,
Virginia

Give me a holler.

I love your detective work! Very fun to follow

The Florida nursery is a nice lead, and even if things don't pan out, it's still an encouragement to keep looking.

Virginia

So are you seeking the 1929 Floribunda 'Pink Gruss an Aachen', the 1930 Floribunda 'Pink Gruss an Aachen', or the mysterious 1895 China 'Irène Watts'?

I'd also like to know... if none of those three roses is in commerce, what is that pretty pink rose whose likeness is on the HMF pages for both 'Irène Watts' and 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'?

Just a tad confused,
Virginia

I'd wager that if you ask anyone growing Irene here for cuttings, you'll get Pink Gruss an Aachen. It is a VERY nice rose in these climates and well worth growing. A well known exhibitor here complained when she was told Irene wasn't a China but a floribunda that it was the ONLY China she could win with. Of course, it isn't a China! I'm sure the same has been said about Sombreuil when it was discovered it wasn't a Tea. Kim

If the GAA sports are considered sufficiently different from GAA because they are *always* some shade of pink, then it makes sense to try and distinguish between the variable parent, and pink sport.

But were/are the pink sports really different enough from each other to bother distinguishing between them?

I dunno...

Virginia

Reading the old ARS annuals of the 1930s through early 1950s, you find many examples of the same climbing mutation occurring for different nurseries, often with very little difference in descriptions, IF there even were descriptions. Often, all that was reported was "climbing".

I have Climbing Columbia, the near thornless, climbing, repeat flowering mutation of the old HT, Columbia. There is no way to determine whether it's one of the two from 1920, one from 1923 or the 1929 mutation. It's an awfully good, fragrant, smooth climber, whichever it is. Kim

If the true FD is found, then what happens, in practical terms?

Also wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a Pink GAA /Irene Watts thread?

- Bob

Naïvely, I thought heritage groups or rose gardens, even nurseries would be some extent happy that another old rose is resurrected, another mystery solved, another new rose to market etc. Something like:

"We are proud to present, the real Francis Dubreuil, after 100 years of...."

At times I thought too this is really nuts, who care if Barcelona is Francis Dubreuil or vice-versa ? Certainly neither of the roses mind. One can masquerade as a tea and the other one can remain in retreat in some hidden garden.

But then there was another feeling, beyond the mystery of the rose, when people around the globe try to solve something together, each in his/her own small way. It is nothing earth shattering or it doesn't solve the problems of this world, but then again, it is much empowering that all the strife and struggle in the plant…

Also in the grand scheme of things, though, maybe it does matter if a few people decide to get together (in a virtual way) to try to correct a mistake, to try to find something that was presumed lost.

Is it the journey or the destination that's important? I think we each get to decide.

Virginia

But most of my favorite roses are called by "study names," as they are "found." And it doesn't bother me one bit to grow roses with "no name."

:-)

Jeri

This is the Beales/American Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona. Unfortunately, there were no flowers, but you can see from the foliage, canes and prickles, this is NOT a "Tea". Kim

What rose has violet and chocolate feathers?

Back to 'Francis', though, I have seen some photos of him with rather large round leaves that come rather suddenly to a point (apiculate?). Do you see that with 'Barcelona'?

Always curious,
Virginia

Kim, I remember reading about one of your hunts, if I recall well a "spectacular" red/ scarlet rose, which you were quiet disappointed with.

Like Virginia, I'm curious, is your eluded rose, so to speak?

I have another question though, if the growth of American FD/ Barcelona, is so obvious, then how come all these specialists made such a obvious mistake?

I have to answer with another question:

How did "all these experts" mistake Cl. Sombreuil -- CLEARLY a rose of Wichurana heritage -- for a Climbing Tea Rose?

And, how did they make that mistake, when none of the contemporary descriptions called 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' a Climber?

I have to tell you that I threw up my hands when an "expert" put out the opinion that the rose advertised in the mid-1800's MUST have been a climber --- because it was said to be "vigorous."

And -- continued the expert -- EVERYONE knows that Tea Roses are "not vigorous."

I can only say that the descriptions changed abruptly in the mid-1950's. And the description "vigorous climber" seems to have appeared first in descriptions from ROY&T. (Which was then under vastly different management than it is today.)

From that nursery, it was shipped around the world, and there you are.

Jeri

To my mind that error is stranger that mixing up a dark-red Tea (which might have straddled the Tea/HT fence given its appearance/parentage) with a dark-red HT.

By the time 'Barcelona' was released in 1932, 'Francis Dubreuil' was past whatever heyday he might have had, so you could usefully wonder how many nurseries had ever stocked both roses at the same time.

I don't know when 'Barcelona' began impersonating 'FD', but I would suppose that if the confusion resulted from the ruination of Sangerhausen, and many other European rose gardens during WWII, then the era when rosarians might have been expected to know 'FD' well enough to distinguish it from 'Barcelona' would have been even more distant than in 1932...

I don't KNOW that Sangerhausen's problems stemmed from WWII, but it does sound plausible. And you're right. Few people would have known both roses well.

Jeri

To add to the confusion, MR8 described Francis as:

Francis Dubreuil. T. (Dubreuil, 1894.) Bud long, velvety crimson.

That's it. For many, there were more in depth descriptions of earlier roses in earlier editions, going back to MR1 (1940), though many didn't creep in to these editions until later ones. Some had nicer, more useful descriptions, many didn't. Then, to conserve room and reduce printing costs, many lost information with each successive edition.

For Barcelona, this is what was written in MR8.Spoiler Alert! You won't believe what is now Barcelona is what this describes, but what is now grown as Barcelona is what was commercially available in the US from the major suppliers (Armstrong, J&P, etc.). It's entirely possible it has experienced degenerative mutations over the decades of being propagated own root.

Barcelona. HT. (Kordes, 32.) (Sensation X Templar) X Lord Charlemont. But long, pointed; fl. large, dbl (75 petals), fragrant (spicy), crimson; long, strong stem. Fol. dark. Very vig. dr.

Then, it is entirely possible the commercial Barcelona MIGHT be something else entirely... but that is what has been accepted as Barcelona since WWII here, and, apparently elsewhere, so it may well be. It's also possible the 75 petal description was "poetic license" repeated as Gospel, as MUCH of "rose lore" is. Confused yet?

At least our modern Barcelona looks like the older images of the open flower, except for those artsy-flossy "impressions" of what a Hybrid Tea bud at the perfect exhibition stage should look like.

By the beginning of the Twentieth Century, Teas were already becoming passe. HTs were THE rage everywhere and were being pooped out at an amazing rate. Even things which didn't appear to be HTs were called HTs or they wouldn't have as great a chance of success. For a rose such as Lady Hillingdon (1910) to be classed as a Tea at that late date, was a risk. By breeding, it should be called a Tea. But HTs were the rage. For a Tea of such late introduction to have sold and remained on the market, something about it had to be exceptional. Perhaps the comment, "Sometimes as hardy as a Hybrid Tea" is the clue. Hillingdon LOOKS "Tea", though it's more of the refined, elegant Tea traits. Bushier, twiggier types, such as Souv. d'un Ami, show more of the China type growth. Calling something a HT during the twenty-five to thirty years between the 1890s to mid to late 1920s could mean anything from an I Zingari type plant all the way to a Mme.Jules Bouche'. Just like "English Rose" could mean anything from Dove (very twiggy Tea type) all the way to Graham Thomas.

I'm sure if presented with a rose Sangerhausen claimed was a rare "Tea", few, particularly Europeans, would question the authenticity of the identification. We Americans want to believe someone who may have had an unbroken continuity of growing something, has it right. Unfortunately, between the atrocities of war, extreme climate (compared to many here) and limited resources, apparently they had many of the same issues many sources here (and elsewhere) had.

And, it happens even with newer roses. Dr. Basye, who created the two roses in question, handed a Garden Web member a rose in his garden and identified it as Commander Gillette (65-626). Then, Dr. Basye sent The Huntington the SAME rose and identified it as Commander Gillette's offspring, 77-361. Then, you have Memphis Magic and Abracadabra. Mr. Wells introduced his seedling which is identical to the Kordes florist rose. Kordes' rose mutates back and forth to virtually identical mutations to Mr. Wells' rose. Kordes had it first. There is an obvious confusion there. Kordes isolated, named and released Frisco and nine further mutations of it and its mutations as florist roses. Ironically, Memphis Music is identical to Abracadabra and Memphis Music's sport (more likely, reversion), Top Contender, is extremely similar to Frisco, the original. Kim

Now for some questions!

Could Barcelona in a different climate than yours, produce 75 petals? I'm not sure, where and when, I saw a photo of a multi-petaled rose, with only 5 petals, due to heat stress, drought etc. (Maybe it was you)
I was wondering if the contrary is possible.

I'm a bit confused by your penultimate paragraph. You say : I'm sure if presented with a rose Sangerhausen claimed was a rare "Tea", few, particularly Europeans, would question the authenticity of the identification.

Wasn't an European which misnamed the rose in the first place?

Lila Tan. HT. (P.Dot, '61) Grey Pearl X Simone. Medium size, dbl. (30 petals), violet-cobalt. Vig., spreading; profuse bloom. m.

I just remembered it!

Royal Tan. HT. (McGredy, '55.) Charles P. Kilham X Mrs. Sam McGredy. Large (5 in.), high pointed, slightly fragrant, pale purple feathered violet and chocolate. Fol. dark. Vig. m

One photo, one source in the world, Sangerhausen. Only one historic source...Roses of Yesterday and Today Archive, probably from the fifties. I wrote Mr. McGredy in the mid eighties to inquire about this rose. Even then, he had no information about its existence anywhere in the world. That photo doesn't show "violet and chocolate feathering".

It very well could have been Sangerhausen who misidentified the rose, but that is from later information than what we had available when the misidentification was intitially suspected, observed and agreed upon. The presumption was it occurred at the nursery as it was common, from reading The Rose, the publication of the Royal National Rose Society, to find articles where people discovered or found an unnamed rose, submitted it to the Society and nurserymen and the rose was identified and reintroduced. It was from reading such an article, "You Are My Sunshine", that I researched and found that rose was growing at The Huntington, buried under massive agapanthus, which grow like Kudzu there, I found Sunshine and got it spread around back into specialty nurseries.

Certainly it's possible for a rose to vary greatly due to climate, water, temperature, feeding, etc. It's also very likley for there to have been degenerative mutations which have crept into production. I am still hunting for the early description of Sterling Silver which reported it to be a five foot plant with four to five inch flowers. I actually saw an introductory plant of it in Los Banos, CA back in the 1990s. Barney Gardner knew a man who bought it from J&P when it first came out and still had it, nearly forty years later. It was a five foot plant and even in that heat, the flowers were over four inches and quite a bit more double than any I've ever seen. Sterling Silver was the only lavender HT easily obtainable here in those years. The grower was elderly and quite proud of his Sterling Silver. I had no reason to doubt the accuracy of his identification.

But, here is what we have to go on from its introduction in 1956. From the American Rose annual, 1956, "New Roses of the World".

The illustration from the American Rose Annual, 1958.

And, the description from Modern Roses 8. Unfortunately, MR's 5, 6 and 7 were lost in a fire.

Even when you have seemingly more accurate, more complete information, it doesn't always match up with reality. Kim

Yes, Sunshine does grow better with some warmth, but, as with many others which were intended to be budded, it is nothing compared to what it can be with some ROOTS under it. I've sent nearly foot long cuttings from my Pink Clouds-Sunshine standard without leaving gaping holes. Oh, and BTW, Sunshine has RMV. I saw it this summer for the first time. Nothing else budded to PC has demonstrated it, but Sunshine did. I'm not surprised. Like virtually everything else of the past century, it was passed around from one budder to the next like a "social disease". Kim

Now, I know it's climate. Because a friend in Simi Valley has it, and it's GREAT for him. Just that much more heat makes all the difference.

Now, though, I'm seeing what Steve has been seeing, how nice! Likewise, the PC-budded Crepuscule, which has likewise sulked, but is now suddenly surging.

Mind, this is a summer so bad here that we gave in and put split-system air conditioning in the bedroom, so we could sleep. WE hate this weather -- but those particular roses love it.

Does this mean that we have two 'FD' roses to compare now? Were you able to get in touch with the folks in FL who say they have the real deal 'FD'? Or did you just send 'FD/Barcelona' to bluegirl in advance of having something else to compare it with later on?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Virginia

Kim It seems someone is Japan has your fabled rose.

So, you've never seen the circulated rose, FD?

There seems to be a phone# for roseglen.

BTW, Did David contact his links or shall I contact them?

- blue

I did hear from Malcolm a little while ago. His mother passed this morning. I will give Roseglen some time to respond to the email. I doubt anyone I'd raise by phone is going to either have, or be willing to divulge the information in a blind phone call. Thanks! Kim

Here it is:

Sorry to hear about Malcolm's mother.

Jeri, that's a beauty. I understand about fragrance, now that the weather is cold I can't smell Sweet Chariot.

Beales "Roses", Irene Watts.

Beales "Classic Roses", Irene Watts.

Mansfield, "Roses in Colour and Cultivation", 1946.

Notice, "a quite dwarf variety". Pink Gruss an Aachen here grew easily to three by three feet, own root. Budded, perhaps even larger.

There does seem to be a bit of "poetic license" in both McFarland and Mansfield. Mansfield has colored black and white photos with some pretty intensely colored plates. McFarland includes these which many of us have likely seen.
Dr. Huey.

Gruss an Aachen

And, Nigrette. The description is acceptable, but I have never seen such HT form from this variety. I imported it from Rosenhof Schultheis in Germany back in the 1990s and it always had cupped to open flowers, never showing the higher centers.

Kim

Looking at your pictures, with my untrained eyes, the 1st, 3rd and 4th resemble each other, whereas the Beales Roses (2nd photo) photograph and McFarland seem identical.

Seeing these pictures makes me think of your Kitchner of Khartoum experience. If "red" was so rare, in early 20th century, then maybe the definitions were a bit "enhanced" so to speak. Do you think that maybe the real FD is lighter in colour than Barcelona?

Concerning the Gruss/ IW. Which IW were talking about the Floribunda or the China?

I was under impression that either you or Kim had contacted your French contacts, so I didn't want to butt in and add to the flurry of digital activity.

However, if it hasn't been done, I contact the French links, this week.

- Bob

The Beales photos look to me as Pink Gruss an Aachen often does in my SoCal climate. I'm still not convined anyone has the "real" Irene. At least I have never seen photographic documentation anyone does. Kim

However, I didn't see the weak peduncles mentioned anywhere in what you posted for Barcelona.

What I understand is that Barcelona is stiff/ upright/strong, whereas FD is lax....

Now, I don't if this still work if one is grafted or not. From what Jeri said it is possible that Barcelona own root, might mimic FD. Did you see any major difference between a grafted and an own root Barcelona? In other words can it mimic a tea rose?

Jeri, do you have a link somewhere to the Field Guide for identifying classes? Thanks! Kim

That was why I was confused that how could they consider it a tea in a first place, own root or grafted....

I would offer to scan the material, but the authors specifically request that we not do that, and I respect their labor.

But let me say -- I did not mean that an own-root Barcelona would take on the appearance of a Tea. Rather, I meant that to anyone who believed that the distinguising characteristic of a Tea is a lack of "vigor" some confusion might exist.

I have sent a query on current price, and how best to order, and hope to hear back soon.

You can contact them via snailmail at:

Dean, Storm, & Vierra
P.O. Box 336, Railroad Flat, CA 95248

What I also suspect is that the same variety in different climates would look different to their observers. Even flowers from the same plant would be different colors (and sizes) according to temperatures, amount of rainfall, etc.

Now, I wasn't around for the debuts of 'Francis Dubreuil' or 'Barcelona', but from reading old rose books online, and looking at HMF, it would seem that dark red Teas were not common, but not all that rare either. One Tea I would love to get a look at is 'Souvenir de David d'Angers', supposedly a descendent of 'Caroline' and an ancestor of 'Francis Dubreuil'.

My guess- and it is only a guess- is that 'FD' might have been a richer, truer, more reliable, darker and/or deeper red than previous dark red Teas.

Or possibly the color wasn't so different from those previous Teas, but the flower was a novel and eye-catching *combination* of dark red color, pleasing shape and larger than usual size...

And I agree with you folks who think the Macoboy photo might be our best representation yet of what we are looking for when we speak of the Tea Rose, 'Francis Dubreuil'. Nice find, indeed, Kim!

Virginia

I was browsing Souv. de Therese Levet to see how it might have resembled Francis. I think we need to find Therese Levet to grow along with FD/Barcelona. Anyone here grow it? It appears to no longer be commercially available in the US...

The "red" possible in the Tea line was quite different from that possible from the European OGRs through Bourbons and HPs. Look at Gen. Gallieni, Rosette Delizy, Slater's Crimson China and the other "red" Asian types. Those "reds" often resembled the China reds, particularly the types expressed by Mutabilis. Then, look at the red HPs, Boubons, etc. That deep red is as different from the Asian reds as the Foetida based yellows are from the "old floor wax" yellows possible through the Tea lines. To get crimson, garnet, deep burgundy, particularly with the velvety petal texture, and precisely with the Damask scent, it requires the Old European genes.

Actually, I think the Macaboy photo is probably what Barcelona may have looked like originally with its "75 petals".

Notice the prickles and foliage shape depicted in these illustrations.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.253420

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.35166

They are very much what you should expect from a "Tea" or even HT. Compare them to the photos I posted of FD/Barcelona above. See a difference? Kim

First that a description of "dark red" from that period was very likely not at all the same as the "dark red" of today.

(Keep in mind that "light red" of the earlier days was usually what we would call "pink"!!)

I really can't get any feel for the foliage in the Macoboy photo, aside from the shine that suggests "glossy leaves". The flower shape looks different from 'Barcelona-as-FD', though...

I'll ask you as a rose breeder how likely it is that 'Barcelona really had 75 petals when none of the parents listed had a petal count higher than 40 petals? (And how reliable are the accounts of petal count, anyway?)

Virginia

Definitely, Jeri. It is natural to view history through current eyes. I have frequently found glowing descriptions of "brilliant yellow" to look as if that white needed bleaching; "vigorous growth" seeming rather reluctant compared to modern vigor; and of course, the "glowing, dazzling scarlet" referring to the "old liver" red. Compared to what WAS, these honestly WERE improvements, but those improvements come faster and faster each decade.

Harkness explained that improvements made tremendous strides each decade. The "bar" for vigor, health, form, productivity, etc. was raised greatly each decade. If you could walk a botanic collection planted by decade, you would see it quite dramatically. Of course there are some oddballs which don't fit the generalization, but they are the exceptions. Most know what Peace looks like. That was a TREMENDOUS improvement in the vigor, size, "huskiness" of HT plants over the preceding decades. It might not be to your individual taste in comparison, but in health and vigor, it was a milestone. In many ways, it opened the door for the "modern" HT compared to the types which existed before it. Earlier ones were very much more "Tea" in character. Peace brought in the husky HP type growth with denser, heavier, thicker foliage which better covered the canes. Much of what we consider "HT" character today, arrived with and through Peace. Compare Peace to Charlotte Armstrong. Compare Charlotte to an earlier Pernetiana. It's sometimes difficult to imagine they are the same class of rose. Kim

Perhaps Barcelona had 75 petals in Kordes' northern German climate? Perhaps the Barcelona of today is a degenerated mutation? Those occur all the time. MANY older roses boil down to only one or two plants remaining before being "discovered". Who knows how many other plants of Barcelona existed in the US and Europe when this all started being discussed? The traditional path, gleaned from old catalogs from the forties to the seventies, was for many sources to offer modern, popular roses. As newer types were introduced to replace them in the catalogs and declining sales reduced demand for the older varieties, the larger producers dropped them. The smaller and "also ran" producers continued offering the older roses, until they were either replaced in their catalogs by newer, "older types" which had begun falling from favor, or their sales sufficiently dropped to the point they were no longer worth carrying. The next step left only Roses of Yesterday and Today as the sole source. Eventually, even ROYAT dropped the ones which were either such production issues they weren't worth messing with, or for which sales had sufficiently fallen they were no longer worth carrying. When I was looking for Fiesta, the striped sport of The Queen Alexandra Rose, there were three known to exist. There may have been more, but only three were discoverable. One grew at Vintage. Their Big Catalog stated it had been purchased from Roses of Yesterday and Today. One grew at a fellow Huntington volunteer's garden, which she had purchased from Roses of Yesterday and Today. I met a gentleman at a Friends of The Huntington Plant Sale, which I propagated for and worked every year. He grew Fiesta, which he purchased from Roses of Yesterday and Today. What if that sole ROYAT plant was a degenerative mutation, and/or was infected with particularly virulent virus or viruses? Every plant produced from it would therefore represent a degenerated and/or infected version of the original.

Perhaps the reduction in petals is viral? I've no indication either of these roses has been tested or treated and the commercial Barcelona did "make the rounds" during the period when virus exploded in the American rose fields. It's entirely possible for them both to be infected and never show symptoms. The reduced petal count could also be due to climate (hotter weather, more brilliant sun can easily reduce petal count), or even the fact that 75 petal count was determined on BUDDED plants where we are all growing it own root. That can make enormous differences alone, but combine own root, potential virus infection in hotter, more extreme climates and petal count could easily be different. That 75 petal count could also be suspect if it was made using a particularly well grown plant during a particularly good season. Who knows if it was actually counted, or estimated?

Oh, yes! Petal counts on seedlings can be almost anything! It all depends upon the genes involved and how they are inhibited or expressed, "turned on". I have Pretty Lady X Lynnie seedlings which are EXTREMELY double. Neither Pretty Lady nor Lynnie are "very double", but something in their lineage obviously was, or had the ability to pass that along. Look at this example.

Lulu - Easlea HT, from 1919. 9 - 16 petals. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=3939

Muriel - Moore, Hybrid Bracteata, 1990. 9 - 16 petals. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=14382

Cross the two and he got Pink Powderpuff. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4848&tab=1

I can report from personal experience, Pink Powderpuff is EXTREMELY double. Judy Morgan-Miller, Sharon VanEnoo and I visited Mr. Moore in the mid 1980s when he showed us this seedling. All three of us were EXCITED and begged him to please introduce this rose. We counted the petals in a flower plucked from the large plant. We stopped counting at 135! And, there were still petaloids remaining! So 9-16 times 9-16 results in well over 135. Yes, that petal count is possible, though it is often much more likely that double crossed with double yields single. Single, five petals, is the "default" in rose genetics. Single is the natural, wild state and the most fertile. Each time you increase the rows of petals, you lose stamen, hence anthers and pollen. Double forms seldom survive in Nature as they are much less fertile. Kim

Definitely, Jeri. It is natural to view history through current eyes. I have frequently found glowing descriptions of "brilliant yellow" to look as if that white needed bleaching; "vigorous growth" seeming rather reluctant compared to modern vigor; and of course, the "glowing, dazzling scarlet" referring to the "old liver" red. Compared to what WAS, these honestly WERE improvements, but those improvements come faster and faster each decade.

Harkness explained that improvements made tremendous strides each decade. The "bar" for vigor, health, form, productivity, etc. was raised greatly each decade. If you could walk a botanic collection planted by decade, you would see it quite dramatically. Of course there are some oddballs which don't fit the generalization, but they are the exceptions. Most know what Peace looks like. That was a TREMENDOUS improvement in the vigor, size, "huskiness" of HT plants over the preceding decades. It might not be to your individual taste in comparison, but in health and vigor, it was a milestone. In many ways, it opened the door for the "modern" HT compared to the types which existed before it. Earlier ones were very much more "Tea" in character. Peace brought in the husky HP type growth with denser, heavier, thicker foliage which better covered the canes. Much of what we consider "HT" character today, arrived with and through Peace. Compare Peace to Charlotte Armstrong. Compare Charlotte to an earlier Pernetiana. It's sometimes difficult to imagine they are the same class of rose. Kim

This makes me wonder how soon the 'FD' that was imported to Oz from Sangerhausen in 1981 was infected. Perhaps that original import was already infected? Dunno.

But the Macoboy photo does seem to show glossy leaves, and the flower doesn't look like other photos of 'Barcelona' I've seen.

If Macoboy grew up with 'Francis D', it would have been the original Tea Rose, as he was born in 1927, and the imposter wasn't introduced to Oz until he was in his mid-50's- in 1981.
His gardening books were published from 1969 on, and his 'Ultimate Rose Book' was published in 1993. I honestly have no idea where the photo of 'Francis D' that you scanned originally came from, or how old it- or the rose- might have been.

Thanks for answering my question about seedlings not necessarily reflecting parents' characteristics. The photos at HMF of Barcelona's immediate forebears looked pretty full and petally (if that is a word) even if they didn't have more than 40 petals.

Virginia

Others which show this texture are:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.20323

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.20322

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.34738

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.65397

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.67068

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.130629

All of these are "Francis Dubreuil" on HMF. Kim

Of course, even if it isn't 'Barcelona', it may not be the true 'FD', but as we like to say around here: "don't go borrowing trouble"...

Virginia

Jay

Jeri

(Belmont Yellow will be here shortly too)

--I swa Francis Dubreuil when visiting Sangerhausen the first time in late summer 2001. Seemed to have one of a few Teas which survived in a bedder (that didn´t exist when I searched for it the next year, as far as I know, it had been moved).
It was growing and smelling like a Tea, not like a Hybrid Tea: thinner branches, more gracile leaves, some how "arching" to the sides, not growing stiffly upright.

I heard of this mixing up with Barcelona, but the Francis Dubreuil I saw there didn´t look at all like an elder Kordes breeding. - That´s all, what I know about (don´t have one or another of them), but I will ask Jutta Knop (of Rosengarten Novalis) who is a collector of Tea Roses when I will meet her the next time.
I have a couple more to follow and that exhaust my contacts here

I plant to plant Leonie Lamench near by might be interesting to see the similarities and differences. I have Day Break as well, so the 4 can grow near each other under similar conditions.

- Bob

I have gone through most of the catalogues which I have to seek out both these roses for you.

E. Horton & Co,. George St., Sydney 1900
Francis Dubreuil - Velvety crimson, reflexed with cerise and amaranth; a very fine Tea Rose with buds of great beauty.

Yates 1903
Francis Dubrieul, dark velvety crismson, reflexed crimson and amaranth. (their spelling and under 38 of the best dwarfs)

Taylor & Sangster, Toorak and Mt Macedon 1904-08???
Francis Dubrenil, purplish crimosn, replexed wito cerise...1/- (their spelling mistakes)

C. F. Newman & Son 136 and 138 Barrack Street, Perth, W.A. 1905
Francis Dubreuil - Velvety purplish crimson, reflexed with cerise and amaranth; a very fine Tea rose, with buds of great beauty.

Arthur Yates & Co., 1905
Francis Dubreuil, dark velvety crimson, reflexed amaranth (under Fifty-Two of the best Dwarf Ever-Blooming or Hybrid Teas)

Two Bays Nurseries, Somerville, Vic 1906
Francis Dubreuil, H.T. - Velvety purplish crimson, reflexed with cerise and amaranth, very beautiful buds.

Arthur Yates & Co., Sydney and Auckland 1907
Francis Dubrieul - Velvety crimson, reflexed wtih cerise and amaranth; a very fine dark tea rose; vigorous grower.

Anderson & Co. Sydney, NSW 1908
Francis Dubresil. Crimson, shaded cerise; fine. (their spelling)

J. Hawter Blackwood Nurseries Mallalyup, S.W.Rly. West Australia 1909
Francois Dubreull - A fine crimson tea, with dark velvety sahding, good bloomer. (their spelling)

H. Kemp Unley Park Nurseries, Unley Road, Adelaide, SA 1909
Francois Dubreuil, A fine crimson Tea with dark velvety shading; good shape, fair size flowers; very free flowering.

Arthur Yates & Co list it again in 1910, 1911,
E. & W. Hackett, 73 Rundle St., Adelaide, South Australia 1912
Francois Dubreuil, velvety crimson, good buds, the best red tea rose up to date.

Law, Somner & Co. 139-141 Swanston Street, Melbourne, 1913
Francois Dubreuil (T) - Velvety purplish crimson, reflexed with cerise and amaranth; a very fine red Tea rose, with buds of great beauty.

Ferguson and Son, Hurstville, NSW 1913
Francis Dubreuil. - Velvety crimson, reflexed cerise and amaranth; good high color, and good show variety.

Yates & Co 1913
Francis Dubrieul (T) - Velvety crimson, reflexed with cerise and amaranth; a very fine dark tea rose, vigorous grower.

Anderson & Co. Sydney, NSW 1914
Francis Dubrieul (T) Crimson, shaded cerise

Henry Sewell's Payneham Nurseries, Payneham SA, 1914
Francois Dubreuil - A very fine Tea Rose, flowers velvety red, reflexed with cerise and amaranth.

Searl & Sons Nursery, Sydney, NSW 1915 lists it. (I don't have this catalogue)

G. Brunning & Sons St Kilda Nurseries 1915
T. Francois Dubreuil; Velvety purplish crimson, reflexed with cerise and amaranth; a very fine red Tea rose, with buds of great beauty. 1s 6d

H. Kemp of Unley Park and Kingswood, SA 1915
Francis Dubreuil, a fine crimson Tea with dark velvety shading; good shape, fair size flowers; very free flowering.

Tothill Limited, Collins St, Melbourne, Vic 1916
T Francois Dubreuil, a fine crimson Tea with dark velvety shading; good shape, fair size flowers; very free flowering.

Hazlewood Bros, Ltd. Epping, NSW New Roses 1934 page 44
Barcelona (HT) (W. Kordes Sohne, 1932), F3 - Carmine crimson with velvety black shadings. The blooms carry 40 to 50 large petals, and the colour keeps quite well under average conditions. The growth is good, with clean foliage. the variety is improving on its first year's performance. E 2/- each

George Knight & Sons Rose Nursery, Parramatta Road, Homebush, NSW 1938
Barcelona - Blooms very larg, full 40-50 petals, perfect form. Color a deep carmine crimson, with black velvety shadings. Color keeps well. Strong old rose perfume. A valuable addition, and one that will be much appreciated.

L.P. Rosen & Son Carlingford NSW 1938
Barcelona (HT) - Bud long, pointed, full, perfect form; deep carmine crimosn, black velvety shadings; scented.

CW & AC Heers, Pacific Nurseries, Wondall Road, Manly, Queensland 1939
Barcelona, H.T. (1934)
Deep carmine crimson with black velvety shad; buds long and pointed, opening well and carried on erect stems; growth strong. A promising variety

T.G. Stewart Cr. Woodhouse Grove and Doncaster Road, Box Hill, E.12 Victoria 1941
Barcelona (H.T.) (W. Kordes & Sohne) - Very strong, upright, bushy growth with healthy foliage. Large full blooms of good form carried on erect stem. Colour deep crimson with velvety shadings. Stong old rose perfume.

C. Langbecker & Sons Bundaberg 1946
Barcelona (H.T.) - Bushy growth, pointed bud; red, full bloom

Laurel Nursery, Guildford Road and Slade St., Bayswater (WA) 1949
Barcelona - Flowers large and lasting. Colour: outside of petals crimson red, inside of petals velvety dark red. Strongly scented. Recommended

It seems like they are such different plants and roses that they should have never been confused in the first place. I notice that FD does not have a mention of scent in all of those descriptions and Barcelona has one that is mentioned.

Plus the differences in form

Kim, I love Dancing Doll.

Jeri, you said you used to grow Souv. de Therese Levet. Was there something making her unsuitable for your climate, or was she a casualty? Kim

Pretty clever to sell a slow-growing Tea as a dwarf form HT so folks wouldn't shovel-prune it in its early years. Or perhaps in its early years, growers in Oz really didn't think that 3-year-old plant would get much bigger?

I imagine some folks who thought they were buying a dwarf-form HT were in for a bit of a surprise once Francis got going: I think Mr Knight said some of his were 6-7' tall...

As Kim has said, the real FD probably straddled the border between Tea and HT. Descriptions of FD don't bear much resemblance to modern HT's, but the earlier HT's tended to be more like their Tea ancestors. Even 'Barcelona' tends to have nodding blooms, I've noticed...

David, did you get the info on Rookwood's rose inventory that I e-mailed you?

Virginia

Well, we planted it in a good location, and watched and waited. For about 8 years.

When, at that point, it was still about 18-inches tall, I finally told Clay I was tired of waiting, and it had to go.

During its tenure here, it bloomed indifferently -- producing occasional blooms of no particularly interesting form. In the end, there wasn't even enough of it to use for kindling.

It may be that it simply wanted a warmer climate than we had to offer. That was a good 25 years ago, and we were far cooler and foggier than we are today. I have seen some roses REALLY pick up in our recent ridiculously-high temperatures. Perhaps it would have done so, too.

Jeri

I'm adding other references from HMF, I'll add an synthesis later.

…petals, crimson red, velvety purple, reverse bright cherry, amaranth. [Bulletin de la Société d'horticulture de Cherbourg 1894.]

Opening very readily, perhaps too much so […] Long egg-shaped bud [.Journal of Horticulture, Cottage Gardener and Country Gentleman
1895.]

….With reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink. [List of Roses Now In Cultivation At Chateau Eléonore, Cannes " - 1895]

François Dubreuil, In many respects like Souvenir de Thérèse Levet. Opinion seems to be divided as to which is the best of the two. […] but, except to an expert, there is very little difference between them. [The Book of the Rose, 2nd Edition 1902 - ]

…flowers large, Flowering abundantly [ catalogue of Andorra Nurseries Catalog, Chestnut Hill, Pennsylvania, USA 1903]

[….] It is a question whether the Rose under notice or the variety Souvenir de Therese Levet is the better, but I think the place of honour is usually accorded to Francis Dubreuil. It is a lovely Rose, of exquisite shape in the bud, and of a rich dark amaranth-red colour, with a maroon shading.
Its beauty is best displayed when grown in standard form. Here it will make a glorious head, if budded upon a thrifty Brier…
Neither this variety nor Souvenir de Therese Levet is seen to very great advantage as bush plants, their growth being rather too diffuse to be used as garden varieties, but upon a low wall they would be grand.
Where highly-coloured flowers are appreciated several plants of Francis Dubreuil should be grown, considering the scarcity of good reds among the Hybrid Teas, and by good cultivation upon well-drained soil blossoms of great beauty may be obtained.

Being a true Tea, it is as free flowering in autumn as in summer.
The tropical weather of the last few weeks has been very favourable to this Rose, and I have been able to cut numbers of lovely blossoms.
As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is apeculiar weakness in the stalk which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted., Market growers have, for this reason, been obliged to discard the variety. [Gardening Illustrated 1906]

- ….Long bud. Rosen, [Obst und Zierbäume / Roses, Fruit Trees and Trees (1914/1915)]

When I was a boy, I planted here at Homebush a few roses, amongst which were Perle des Jardins, Souv. de Therese Levet and Francois Dubreuil. These are still growing well and are good specimen trees and produce large quantities of nice flowers. p102

What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil., Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104

Francois Dubreuil:- Beautiful, long dark red buds which last a long time, of good form. I have seen it well shown here in the early spring. p105

[[1931 - Tea Roses in New South Wales[]

Dubreuil, Francis (tea) Dubreuil 1894; velvety purple-crimson, vivid cherry-red and fiery amaranth reflexes, medium size, very double, fine form, lasting, opens, thick rounded petals, ovoid buds, floriferous, continuous bloom, autumn-bloomer, firm upright stems, dark bluish green foliage, growth 6/10, well-branched. Sangerhausen. [Rosenlexikon Book (1936) Page(s) 220.]

One of the mysteries among roses is why this superlative, unfading, darkest-crimson variety has been neglected for almost a century. The shapely, fragrant blooms occur in midsummer and again later amid good foliage on a compact bush. 3’ x 2’.
Rosenzeitung, 1896, plate 3.
GST

Australian Rose Annual
Book (1934)
p23 Harry H. Hazelwood, Epping, NSW: Next in order of merit is 'Barcelona' also from Kordes. In respect of colour this variety is on a par with 'Sensation', for some truly glorious coloured blooms have been produced, but in spite of the raiser’s description that the colour keeps well, it has faded and blued badly here. 'Barcelona' is a variety of excellent shape, and carrying up to 105 petals. It is sweetly scented, with medium growth and foliage. It is to be hoped this variety will improve in colour quality, buts its performance to date is not specially promising.

The growth is very good, and another decided advantage is that the bloom is held on an erect peduncle and is sweetly scented. It has plenty of petals (I counted up to 75 and 100, though the raiser says 50 petals),

I'm not surprised about the high petal counts. Remember, those would have been budded plants. Few, if any, of ours being compared have been.

The fragrant red rose sold and grown in Australia under the name Francis Dubreuil was part of a parcel of budwood sent to Heather Rumsey from the Europa Rosaraium in Sangerhausen in January 1981. (Trevor Nottle recorded this in the Journal of Heritage Roses Australia Vol 3 No 2, May 1981 in a note titled "Some Recent Imports from the Rosarium Sangerhausen Teas".)
The Rumseys propagated and shared this rose widely and passed it on to David Ruston who distributed budwood to many other Australian rose nurseries.
This is the rose growing in Parramatta Park.

Budwood from the Sangerhausen "Francis Dubreuil" was also supplied Peter Beales' nursery in the UK in the late 1970s / early 1980s and from there distributed to the USA, NZ etc. Thus most roses labelled Francis Dubreuil anywhere in the world today can trace their origins to a single source in Sangerhausen.

Duplicates of this particular rose can be seen in some famous gardens, including the Europa Rosarium at Sangerhausen.
When Lynne Chapman visited the collection at Sangerhausen in the early 2000s, she photographed two plants - one labelled 'Francis Dubreuil', the other labelled 'Barcelona'. The plants were identical. So what was it? This intensely fragrant red rose of modest stature does not match the original description of 'Francis Dubreuil' and, as Margaret wrote, some are of the opinion that the correct identity is the Kordes rose 'Barcelona' while others are not convinced.

You can see from the catalogue entries forwarded by Pat Toolan that 'Francis Dubreuil' was offered by many Australian rose nurseries from the time of its introduction until the 1940s, but unfortunately we have not come across any surviving plants from this time.
Any "Francis Dubreuil" planted in Australia after 1981 are the misnamed, small fragrant rose from Sangerhausen - possibly 'Barcelona'.

The original 'Barcelona' was also available in Australia soon after its introduction in the 1930s and, as Margaret mentioned, it may still be growing in one garden in the SW of Western Australia. It appears on an original garden plan but as there have been a number of replacements of the roses on the original plan, Patricia Routley is working on the question of whether the original 'Barcelona' is still growing in the garden.

Most of the early 'Francis Dubreuil' descriptions are disappointingly repetitious and only describe the bloom colour, although we know from George Knight's 1931 description that the original 'Francis Dubreuil' was a very large (8 - 9 feet), well-proportioned, decorative shrub rose.
He mentioned its floriferousness over a very long season and its beautiful long red buds, which lasted a long time.

IN an article titled 'Fifty Years of Roses in Queensland' (Australian & New Zealand Rose Annual 1953, p38), S.B. Watson writes about roses growing in Brisbane gardens in the first decade of the 20th century and says that 'Francis Dubreuil' was one of the few really red Tea roses and makes the point that it lacked perfume.

A description in German, from Rosen-Zeitung 1901, roughly translates as:
"Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil 1895) is not only one of the most excellent red Tea roses, but one of the best Tea roses of all. The flower is indeed only medium size, sometimes only small, but extremely durable. Blooms remain in bud form for a long time and the buds are most beautiful. The growth is vigorous and the crown well branched. This rose repeats its bloom right up until the frosts."
(I will add this to HMF as soon as Hillary Merrifield OKs my translation)

Most of what I've written here can be found in the "Francis Dubreuil" entry in 'Tea Roses - Old roses for warm gardens' and there is a detailed botanical description of the impostor going under this name in that entry, and a list of the Australian catalogue entries for the original 'Francis Dubreuil' located to date in Appendix IV.

I sincerely hope the original 'Francis Dubreuil' survives in some old garden or cemetery in Australia, but to date it has not been found or recognised. It sounds like a gloriously generous shrub rose of impressive stature and I wish we had it in the Tea rose repository at Renmark and in our own gardens.

Patricia Routley will be able to give you first-hand information about the rose listed as 'Barcelona' in the SW Western Australian garden.

To the best of my knowledge, any rose growing in Australia (and the rest of the world) today under the name Francis Dubreuil is likely to be the misnamed, intensely fragrant rose that can trace its origins back to Sangerhausen of the 1970s and 80s.

This makes me even more curious what Roseglen has as the "real" Francis Dubreuil, and from whom they obtained it. Kim

I tried to synthesis all we know about these two roses:

See if it makes any sense:

- The both seem to have beautiful buds. And their both red.

But what they differ is:

Colour 
FD is more cerise/ amaranth. Whereas Barcelona is more blackish red.

So, FD could be a lighter shade than Barcelona.



Scent One mention of scent for FD (HMF), whereas Barcelona has a good scent described numerous times as old rose.

So, one can conclude that FD is lightly scented or not scented whereas Barcelona has a nice sweet scent. 



Form 
Fd has a lax, weeping form, "diffused", while Barcelona has erect stems.

Size FD can become really big whereas Barcelona is considered a small rose.


Petal number There are none about FD. However, there are 4 reference that mention 40-50 petals for Barcelona and two mention 75 or more (105).

Possible contradictions


- FD has blue green leaves.[Rosenlexikon Book (1936)]

- FD has glossy leaves.[Kim's source]

- The same German source describes that FD has erect stems, however an English source specifies that FD as a pot plant has weak stems.

- FD is mentioned as a good candidate as a dwarf rose in an Australian nursery catalogue, however, in [Tea Roses in New South Wales -1931] it is recommend as an 8-9 feet shrub.

- One British sources says that it is very hard to distinguish between FD and Souvenir de Thérèse Levet.

- Barcelona has also it’s own lookalikes, regardless the fact that it has been masquerading as FD for the past 30-40 years. Sensation, Etoile de Holland, Chateau de Clos Vougeot, (in color), and Oklahoma (Kim).

In conclusion if one grows Francis Dubreuil and Barcelona side by side in California/ Australia. It is possible that FD would dwarf Barcelona by 4-5 feet. It will be sprawling, diffuse bush, in contrast to Barcelona's erect stems. FD will be a lighter shade of red and scentless. It is possible that Barcelona has more petals than FD.

List of Roses Now In Cultivation At Chateau Eléonore, CannesEDIT
Book (1898) Page(s) 12.
FRANCIS DUBREUIL Tea - Dubreuil, 1895
A fine velvety crimson red with reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink.

Journal of Horticulture, Cottage Gardener and Country GentlemanEDIT
Magazine (1895) Page(s) 294.
Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil) This is said to be the finest red Tea rose known, and is described as full flower of a fine form, opening very readily, perhaps too much so; of a crimson red colour, with the reverse of petals cerise, with a long egg-shaped bud of great beauty.

"Inclined to pink' and "cerise reverses" do not fit the current modern rose. Kim

Melissa

Melissa

Jeri

http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?s_it=imageDetails&q=souv+de+therese+levet&v_t=TB50CL-ff&b=image%3F%26s_qt%3Dsb%26q%3Dsouv%2Bde%2Btherese%2Blevet%26tb_oid%3D18-08-2013%26s_it%3DTB50CL-ff%26tb_mrud%3D18-08-2013%26tb_uuid%3D6295E30BBC35455DA4A5B1B7A0B9E3AC%26oreq%3D001fcc7f76dc4f27ba9576fee5b9792a&img=http%3A//www.sciencephoto.com/image/133939/350wm/C0070942-Rose_Rosa_Souvenir_de_Therese_Levet_-SPL.jpg&host=http%3A//www.sciencephoto.com/media/133939/view&width=127&height=85&thumbUrl=https%3A//encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTuzKgR-Z7HqXN9fgmGV1p5gdot72YVYiFFh9MBkmLtDD16rtbv6MN33m0&imgWidth=350&imgHeight=234&imgSize=14482&imgTitle=souv+de+therese+levet

http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?s_it=imageDetails&q=souv+de+therese+levet&v_t=TB50CL-ff&b=image%3F%26s_qt%3Dsb%26q%3Dsouv%2Bde%2Btherese%2Blevet%26tb_oid%3D18-08-2013%26s_it%3DTB50CL-ff%26tb_mrud%3D18-08-2013%26tb_uuid%3D6295E30BBC35455DA4A5B1B7A0B9E3AC%26oreq%3D42cd9ae0dc894b47a420cf9e20c5d77c&img=http%3A//www.countrysideroses.com/csr/RosePages/Pictures/SouvdeThereseLevet.jpg&host=http%3A//www.countrysideroses.com/csr/RosePages/SouvdeThereseLevet.html&width=127&height=85&thumbUrl=http%3A//t1.gstatic.com/images%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcSp5FrX1d4wYs87fxad-gkmfq1j8MdBNb9PQyMDBhgPPJAoLnaOdUWx2w&imgWidth=420&imgHeight=280&imgSize=54553&imgTitle=souv+de+therese+levet

A rather suspicious one on Mistydown's site.

http://mistydowns.com.au/plant_display/display/1220-souvenir-de-therese-lovet

http://www.saorrosa.it/il-cuore-della-collezione/le-nostre-t%C3%A8-6/souvenir-de-th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se-levet/

Scroll down to Therese' photo.

http://www.rosesanciennesenfrance.org/fr/galerie_photos_roses-couleurs.htm

http://www.flickriver.com/search/souv+de+therese+levet/

Kim

Both the leaves and blooms look similar to me.

Virginia

Virginia

I'm unconvinced by the early statements that Francis and Therese are "indistinguishable". That sounds too much like the early statement that images of Irish Elegance sufficed for Irish Fireflame. They were both single HTs but they ARE different. Thanks! Kim

What I'd expect is that the plants would be similar in habit, and that their dark red flowers on the large-ish rosebushes would stand out (or 'pop' to use a more modern parlance) in the garden, giving a similar effect.

As garden plants they might be barely distinguishable, but even garden writers who mention the similarities between 'FD' and 'SdTL' seem to prefer FD's bloom form, and elegant bud shape.

Do I think the photo of 'FD' from the Adelaide Botanic Garden looks like photos I've seen of 'SdTL'? Not especially, but I think we all know enough about photos of roses to know that the same flower can look pretty different from itself after a few days. A lot depends on camera angle also.

And I'm standing by my intuition that Macoboy probably photographed the real 'FD'... The blue tinge is possibly from color processing of the photo, or even just due to the age of the book. I suspect that Macoboy probably knew the real Tea Rose 'Francis' from gardening in the Sydney area before the Sangerhausen 'FD' was introduced to Aussie gardens in 1981, though I have no way to prove or disprove that notion without knowing more about Macoboy himself.

I am so intrigued by the conflicting reports from the Tea Bag ladies about 'FD' at Sangerhausen in the early 2000's. A visitor in 2001 says the 'FD' rose she saw did not look like 'Barcelona' or an early Kordes HT; it quacked like a Tea Rose. Another report from the early 2000's (from Lynne?) said she couldn't tell the difference between 'FD' and 'Barcelona' when she visited Sangerhausen. This does make me wonder if they might have (or have had) more than one rose labeled 'Francis Dubreuil' during that time frame...

Kim, when did you first experience your revelation that 'Barcelona' and 'Francis-in-commerce-in-the-U.S.' were the same?

Virginia

As usual, David has been one step ahead of me. He contacted a friend there in Australia who grows Francis. These are the images Gail (David will have to fill in Gail's last name, but I genuinely thank them both for making the images available!) sent of her Francis Dubreuil.

Is this the real Francis Dubreuil? I certainly don't know, but it DOES have darker green, glossier foliage which is far more "Tea-like" than our rose, and it is definitely NOT Barcelona. The "weak stems" may, or may not express themselves with longer, newer, thinner growth as the bush grows. Whatever it is, it definitely looks more as I would expect Francis to look than ours does.

I've seen those round, glossy leaves a few times as I've been looking for 'FD' photos amongst the 'Barcelona' types. Definitely outnumbered by the 'Barcelona' plants, but there were a few others along the way.

It's labeled as 'Francis Dubreuil', it has the long, elegant, red buds, and the glossy, dark green foliage, and it just LOOKS the part. If it looks like the Adelaide 'FD', I'll be pretty tempted to say we've got the proverbial walking, quacking duck.

Oh, and just imagine if the Florida rose should also look like that!?

It's all very exciting!

Virginia

From looking at rose catalogs and magazines, it seems that Dickson's crimson HT, 'Liberty' was extremely popular around that time, and was reportedly very fragrant. And there were other dark-red (a subjective description) Teas and HT's to compete for gardeners' attention and garden space.

I don't know my gardening history as well as I'd like to, but I imagine that by the time 'FD' was successfully imported to the U.S., American gardeners may have already succumbed to the allure of Hybrid Teas. Teas were just so last-century, dude...

Actually, I just had a look at the Sep 30 1905 Gardeners Chronicle & New Horticulturist, and was intrigued by a report of 'FD' being shown at the Royal Horticultural Society's joint meeting with the National Rose Society, and the reporter notes: "Among the varieties shown were remarked François Dubreuil (a fine, dark crimson bloom), Madame A. Mari, General Schablikine, Papillon, Gruss an Teplitz', varieties not known to many of our readers, but great acquisitions to our Rose-gardens."

From the above report, I'm left with the impression that eleven years after his debut, 'Francis D' was still not well-known in the U.K. I can't help but wonder if the British and American arbiters of taste just didn't care for his nodding habit, and preferred the stronger necks of HT's like 'Liberty' and 'Gruss an Teplitz'?

'Francis D' must have been introduced to Australia fairly early on, given that George Knight, writing in 1931 when he was in his early 50's mentioned planting 'FD' as a boy. Apparently, Knight started work in a rose nursery at age 12, a few years before 'FD' was introduced. He started his own nursery at age 18, a few years after 'FD' came out.

Very sensibly, it seems that Aussie gardeners didn't mind (or actually liked!) the nodding habits of Tea roses; as far as I can tell from this distance, 'FD' seems to have been more popular in Oz than in other Anglophone countries?

I also know very little about how 'FD' was received in his native land, or elsewhere in Europe.

I did read that he was planted at a chateau in Cannes that had a well-known rose garden, but I've no idea if that garden still exists, or if 'FD' still exists thereabouts. Won't somebody please volunteer to go to the French Riviera on a rose-hunting expedition? It's a tough assignment, but someone ought to make the sacrifice for the sake of knowledge!

Virginia

Concerning FD in US there are two blurbs in Andorra nurseries 1901 and 1903 (check HMF, reference tab for FD). And another less than a blurb mention in American Florist, Volume 18, 1902.

As for teas and UK. If you have GST rose book, I recommend you reading the mini chapter on teas. He lamented that he could with difficulty grow teas and there are few areas where they can be grown in the UK. He continues that in order to enjoy them one should go to France, southern Europe, South Africa etc.

Also I read a lovely description of "nodding" teas roses by Lux in this thread. Basically, I quote: "It is only at the very end of a bloom cycle, that all of the roses on a Tea rosebush nod

And finally the colour of FD. If one reads between the lines, one considers "colour" in an "historic context", 2-3 accounts of similarity with Souvenir de Thérèse Levet, "Several mentions of cherry reflexes" FD is probably crimson/amaranth in the centre with cerise reflexes.

Kim the photos are promising. I wish there was photo of the open flower :-)

I note your notes on the color descriptions, Bob, and remember the one listed in an earlier post about the coloring being "inclined to pink"?

Not to worry! Gail, the lovely lady who provided the photos of her plant, has written that as it grows in her garden, more photos of more fully developed blooms and foliage are easily provided. Bless her! Thanks. Kim

Yes, I'm sure there is more pink somewhere in Francis, even though he doesn't want to admit it ;-)

Glen you mean the The Rex Hazlewood Rose Garden?

They have both FD and Irène Watts Kim, though neither Pink gruss nor Souvenir or Barcelona!

- Bob

*** ALAS! The one we got from ARE decades ago was similarly a weakling. They said it might be slow to take off -- and it was. But after 6-7 years, we gave up on it.

After all that time, there wasn't even enough plant to use as kindling (the fate of most failed roses).

Jeri

Archduke Joseph - to see if it's our Mons. Tillier

Bloomfield Abundance - to see if they grow Spray Cecile Brunner or the real Wichurana hybrid Captain Thomas bred.

Dame Edith Helen - to see if it is as vigorous in Australia as has been long reported.

Jacques Cartier - to see if they grow the same rose we grow under that name.

Juno - I wonder if this is the OGR or the infamous 1950 HT? Juno (HT) had curious, heavy, thick foliage which it passed on to Pink Favorite. It was sufficiently distinct to have been singled out by several breeders over the years for comment.

White Ensign - to see how this actually compares to Snowbird and Louise Avenue.

If I was able to go, I would photograph every part of each of these plants just to satisfy my curiosity.

Therese's inability to grow well own root (at least initially) could well be a main reason it fell from commerce as quickly as it seems to have. Kim

*** So I was speculating. :-)

Jeri

Regards David.

I'm guessing that this is one of the best times of year for roses over there?

Virginia

I did search the following web site for photos of 'FD' growing at the Roseraies du Val-de-Marne and Raymond Loubert, but to me both roses look like 'Barcelona': http://www.roseraieduvaldemarne.fr/roseraie_internet_2010/

These do not look like stock photos to me, so I suspect that 'FD' at these rose gardens is really 'Barcelona'.

I did see the Andorra catalog, and others listing 'FD', so I know that the real 'Francis' did make it to our shores; what I'd like to know is how successful those retailers were at selling him to American gardeners. I'd imagine that most customers for FD here and in the UK would have needed to grow him "under glass" if- as has been suggested- he wasn't a particularly good Tea for California's hot, dry summers.

I don't know about the suitability of our climate here in the Southern U.S. for growing 'Francis', but much of the South was impoverished for decades after Reconstruction ended in 1877, so I wonder how many Southern gardeners were buying the latest rose imports to try them out. Probably some folks did grow him successfully, and he might persist in a garden somewhere in the lower half of the country- perhaps known as "that red Tea" or even as 'Francis Dubreuil'.

Did you see that there are new photos of 'Francis' posted at HMF courtesy of the Tea Bag Ladies in Oz?

Virginia

Meanwhile how many gardens that housed a pre-impostor 'Francis Dubreuil' still have him hanging around?

I was sort of relieved when I saw the comments on HMF :-)

This concords with all we've gleaned from the references on HMF and those posted by David.

Barcelona own root is smallish plant, 2 feet tall.

The only source I found was Les Chemins de la Rose, one of David's possible beholders of the real FD. It's all in French. If you scroll down, you'll see the boutique pétals des roses.. They sell to all Europe.

It is there that I found the lightly scented Francis Dubreuil.. That's why I thought maybe some of our European members can get it and see :-)

If I'll find some time, I'll write to them all.

I saw the photos of FD, but as Patricia, Margaret & Billy said in the comments it is a "Barcelona".

From what I know teas can be grown in the UK against a sunny wall, obviously not in all regions, but some.

I assume FD at Sangerhausen was grown under glass.

Was the original 'Francis Dubreuil' a "true Tea", or was he a "Hybrid Tea"? Or was he that other thing, a "Tea hybrid"?

The earliest descriptions of FD say his color was a dark red with pink or cerise or amaranth highlights. My assumption is that 'FD' was darker than other red Teas, but would not have looked terribly out of place hanging out with other reds such as 'Gen Gallieni', 'M. Tillier', 'Souv. de David d'Angers', 'Mlle Christine de Nouë', ''Corallina', 'Safrano a Fleurs Rouges', 'Princesse de Sagan', 'Bardou Job' and- of course- 'Souv de Therese Levet'.

Here's a 1901 review from a German rose reviewer about Francis:

"Francis Dubreuil (Dubreuil 1895) is not only one of the most excellent red Tea roses but also one of the best Tea roses of all. The flower is in fact only of medium size, and sometimes even small, but keeps extremely well. It lasts In bud form for a very long time, and is then at its most beautiful. The growth is vigorous and the crown is well branched. What I like most about this rose, is its capacity to produce solitary flowers on long, upright stems, I do not like roses in flower umbels (in clusters). Its floriferousness (flowering period) is very long, it lasts right up to the frosts."

That mention of "solitary flowers on long, upright stems" makes me think we might find some HP ancestry in Francis' background, no? And it accords well with other early mentions of FD having "diffuse growth"...

Here's an early discrepancy, though; the review above says 'FD' "lasts in bud form for a very long time, and is then at its most beautiful". Contrast that with an earlier British review- Francis "is described as full flower of a fine form, opening very readily, perhaps too much so"...

So if Francis was dark red and had diffuse growth, he seems to be quacking like an early HT, and not a "pure Tea"? Was he classified as a Tea because of his fragrance?

According to Guillot, 'FD' is descended from 'Souv de David d'Angers' (described as "deliciously fragrant" in 1864) who is in turn descended from 'Caroline', the Tea that may be synonymous with 'Bermuda Spice'.

Some early reviews of 'FD' say he is fragrant, most say nothing, and at least one reviewer says "not fragrant". This assortment of varying opinions shouldn't be surprising, given humans' different capacities for smell, and given the way odors can vary according to temperature, time of day, etc. The scent of Tea roses seems to be especially elusive, and elicits a confusion of descriptions, so I'm inclined to believe that the original Francis probably had a Tea scent and was fragrant to some people and not to others.

However, I think it's also possible that if there were an early confusion with at least one grower offering a different rose as 'Francis D', the differences in opinion about form and fragrance could stem from an early switcheroo. Just because there was a later mix-up with 'Barcelona' doesn't mean there wasn't also an earlier mix-up somewheres down the line. And if there were an earlier misidentification, this early imposter might be the rose that was later sent from Sangerhausen to Oz in 1981?

Another question I have relates to size. The Tea rose grown by Mr Knight just outside of Sydney was a large rose bush. The roses grown in the U.S. and Oz as FD today both seem to be more compact and HT-like (although the Aussie plant that hails from Sangerhausen seems to have a earlier HT look than 'Barcelona' does?)

I'm trying to get things straight in my own head, so if I'm off-course in my suppositions, please get me back on track.

Virginia

I could see Mons. Dubreuil, in 1894 or so, saying to himself:

"Hmmmmm . . . Such a dark red rose won't be likely to stand out, among these newfangled Hybrid Teas. BUT! If I class it as a Tea Rose, it will be something quite different and remarkable among Teas!"

Jeri

I was just reading this article by Wiliam Grant at Paul Barden's web site about early Hybrid Tea roses, and I feel a bit better about not really being able to figure out where the line gets drawn in terms of rose classes. I was amused by the thought that many modern HT's are such a mishmash, they probably have little or no Tea ancestry- all Hybrid, no Tea...

Having said that, I do like quite a few of those early HT's that show their Tea ancestry pretty well, and are actually rather attractive garden plants. They're probably also the only ones that are likely to be disease-free in my climate.

And speaking of my climate, the weather forecast is that next week we may get high temps that are under 80F. I am so thrilled at the prospect! Now, if we could just get you West Coast folks some rain...

Virginia

I guess that made sense to somebody, but I don't see how it's more marketable.

I think we're about to have this thread reach its limit. Again.

If the discussion gets carried over to a new thread, would it be wise to change the subject line to reflect the 'Francis Dubreuil' focus, and perhaps include links to the first 2 parts of the discussion in the initial post?

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg082057486302.html

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg081406439752.html

Any thoughts?

Virginia

Melissa

Please see that I did start a new thread with a new subject line. I figure that now the subject line is about 'Francis Dubreuil', we can get back to discussing native species roses, right?

Just kidding- clearly this is an anything-goes kinda project...

Virginia

And it's a good idea to add the links to the previous threads.

For anyone interested in this discussion, Part III of this thread is here
Part I of this thread is here.