Here's Duchess de Rohan, bought as gallon-size end of June from Roses Unlimited sale. It was all yellowish and gangly, so I chopped down to 6" before potting. Now it has 5 buds, pinched off all, left one to enjoy. Same soluble fertilizer:

I think that depends upon what you're looking at, Kippy. The best analogy I can use is from cutting wrapping. Cuttings I wrap before the coldest part of winter here, fail. They either do not callus or they callus then collapse. If I wait until it appears the 'cold' weather is nearing its end and begin, they callus, root and grow. Once the roses begin pushing buds, wrapping begins failing. The wraps are all being held under the same conditions indoors and I am certain the moisture in the paper is as consitent as possible, so the variable I have to attribute the variations in results to is how much stored resources the cuttings themselves contain.

Based upon that observation, it appears once new growth is pushing, the stored reserves are being depleted. until they are replaced by new stores absorbed by the roots and photosynthesized by the foliage. It seems almost like a hybrid car. There is power to start the thing and get it running, but it then has to generate more power to replace what it's used. With the roses, though, it seems it's a pretty close in and out cycling with little held in reserve for any kind of "dormancy" until the "winter" conditions trigger storage like fat storage for hybernation in animals.

Who knows how long some of the systemic chemicals remain in the tissues? I haven't read any reports on how long they hang around in plants or in the soil. The instructions tell you how frequently to apply them so their "blood levels" remain effective, but how about the residues?

A huge issue I have with reports of various "treatments" with these plants is, NOTHING happens in a vacuum. A plant which turns yellow with the application of one treatment is still functioning on the effects of the previous one. It is entirely possible the reported results are the COMBINATION of the effects of two or more treatments. PLUS, how have the climatic conditions changed during the treatment time? Something applied to an immature plant in cool weather may not result in the desire changes. Add a different treatment when the weather is warming, or perhaps more rain is experienced, and voila! Sudden improvement! That improvement is reported as being the result of the latest treatment, with NO observation, no reporting of how OTHER variables may have changed nor what effects both those other variables as well as the combination of past and present treatments MIGHT have affected the results.

What we're reading has about as much scientific validity as my stating I slapped my neighbor and my roses turned dark green, therefore, slap your neighbor to green up your roses. But, the weather went from 50 degrees, cold, wet and overcast to 75 degrees, warm and sunny with good ground water about the time I slapped my neighbor. Yet, the results are attributed to slapping my neighbor and not to anything else which may well have affected them.

I understand the excitment of 'discovering' something new and the enthusiasm of reporting it to help others. But, without isolating the treatments from each other, and from other variables which can have as dramatic effects as the treatment, reporting the successes (or failures) as DUE to the treatment is short sighted at best. Kim

Roses are different from each other, so I don't make generalizations. I have 2 Double Delights, they are vigorous best bloomers at the alkaline rose park. One is planted in potting soil, topped with cocoa mulch, pH 5.8 (broke out in BS.) The other planted in potting soil alone, 100% clean, and DOUBLE THE SIZE of the other one.

Double Delight likes it alkaline, and became wimpy disease-fest with the acidic cocoa mulch. In contrast, musks like Marie Pavie and Annie L. McDowell like that cocoa mulch, become dark-green and bloom more.

Jude and Double-Delight like my soluble fertilizer best, Sharifa put forth a bloom. Lyda rose with no growth, until I give it chemical potassium. Dave and Deb in Montana wrote in HMF how Double-Delight likes extra iron.

There's a PDF document on Northwest Illinois soil is tested deficient in manganese, but plenty in iron .. which account to the poor result in my giving iron to my acid-plants, but they became dark-green with pine-mulch (high in manganese). Gina's Rose hates that high-iron molasses brand (Tree of Life at 20% iron). Roses can be different from each other ... Romanticas like it alkaline, most Austins bloom more when slightly acidic.

Here's Jude the Obscure, known as the most wimpy own-root ever. Lyda rose, Sharifa asma, and Jude were bought as tiny bands end of July from Heirloom Roses, picture taken today August 12.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 13:38

Strawberryhill, and sorry but I am going a little off topic, one thing that is great about you is your experiments. You provide information, report your findings, but you also show your results which I know can vary based upon many variables, but offer a starting point (idea) for research or experiments conducted by others.

For example, based upon your input, I am researching the use of molasses in the garden; something I had never heard of. My research is specifically related to my garden and conditions etc. and will be based upon my own methodology. I could possibly conduct my own little molasses experiment on my roses in the most controlled environment I can create.

Images can be worth a thousand words, and you clearly have a green thumb. You grow many happy roses. It seems as though your motives are pure; you are truly a lover of roses, like many on this forum, and highly appreciated.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 13:36

Hi Lynn: Thank you for your kind words .. I appreciate your survey-threads, asking folks the right questions to help rose-growers select the best roses for their soil/climate. I admire your finding truth, and learning spirit which I share.

My B.S. is in Computer Science, minor in Chemistry ... so I like to experiment, search for info., and solve problems. Here's what I learn from experiments in my garden:

Weak stems and pale leaves like Duchess de Rohan benefit from soluble gypsum (calcium sulfate) ... it greened up immediately. So did Harkness rose King Arthur.

Stingy bloomers and thin-stems like Paul Neyron, Eglantyne, Crown P. Magareta bloom more with extra-potassium. Paul Neyron put forth 2nd flush despite getting 4 hours of sun.

Heat-sensitive roses like own-root Pat Austin and W.S. 2000 do best with no chemical fertilizer, they are very sensitive to salt. My rule of thumb is if a rose is so wimpy that it has to be in partial shade, then no chemical fertilizer.

Molasses NPK is 3-1-5 with potash, iron, sulfur, and other trace elements. Here's an excerpt from the link below:

"Schultz Garden Safe 3-1-5 Liquid Plant Food is a form molasses derived from sugar beet processing ... the fine print on a Garden Safe bottle where it says - Contains 3.0% Water Soluble Nitrogen, 1.0% Available Phosphate, 5.0% Soluble Potash - derived from molasses."

See link on molasses and plants:

Here is a link that might be useful: How does molasses make blooms bigger

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 15:55

Thanks Kim. That is one of those questions I have been wondering about.

It is amazing just what different levels of watering can do. I purchased 6 $3 1g Icebergs last year and planted all of them on fill dirt. Last year they all got watered similarly but rather unevenly.

This year 4 are on my garden drip system and 2 are on the "leaky hose bib lets not waste water and hook up old soaker hoses to it". The 4 are all pretty much the same as far as size and bloom (and mildew) But the other two are vastly different. One section of that old soaker hose drips MUCH faster than the rest. That extra water plant probably has the worst fill soil, but with all that water it is covered with 100's of blooms (and tons of mildew) and the other rose who gets very little water is less than 1/4th the size and today does not have a bloom on it (but lots of bright green growth)

They all have had loads of manure or leaves as mulch.

The difference is the water and the way it is applied.

FYI Iceberg is prone to mildew in our current conditions of cool foggy overcast mornings-most of the roses are showing the effects of our mild summer with some mildew here and there. These Icebergs do not really see much sun until the afternoon when the fog burns off and they bake on the hillside til the sunsets.

Arrggg Duplicate post

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 19:44

I planted Summer Samba rose today (bought as gallon from RU end of June, so it's one and 1/2 months of root growth). The root ball was a solid 2-gallon.

Soluble gypsum (calcium sulfate), molasses/vinegar (NPK 3-1-5), and banana peels NPK 0-3-42 .... and watered it once every other day. There were several studies in calcium's role in promoting root growth.

Here's an excerpt "The growth of the roots in the test media was examined daily by counting the total number of roots and the number of roots with laterals. The development of the number of roots had an exponential course at all calcium concentrations and was enhanced by increased calcium concentration."

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02450366

Below is a link to 1908 Rhode Island Rose Society experiment with cut roses, which they found changing water, and cutting off the stem, did not prolong vase life. Also info. on how they deepened the pink color by adding sugar.

Here is a link that might be useful: 1908 Rhode Island experiment with cut roses

You're welcome Kippy. It seems, from what I'm seeing both in the SCV as well as around here, the ground is SO dry, it wicks away the water as if none had been applied. It hasn't been as hot so far this summer as it was last, yet the same gardens, same roses (only a year older), same sprinkler systems and same application rates and frequencies, are insufficient for them. Everything has been set for maximum efficiency while keeping the plants going well, but this year, it just isn't enough. I'm also hitting everything by hose weekly because established roses where there have been NO other changes, no tree root invasions, no construction, no gophers, no moles, etc., are ailing due to water stress. The worst has doubled the water and the results are improved, but still not good, so it's on to every day watering until it gets cool and stays there. It IS amazing what a little extra water can provide, isn't it? Kim

For Josh: I enjoy your story of visiting Chamblee's. I got 4 roses from them last year, the heaviest and most solid root growth among 8 nurseries! Yesterday as I pull out my 2-gallon solid root of Summer Samba rose, I'm reminded of the heavy roots received from Chamblee's, the weight was worth the shipping cost to my Chicagoland.

I found a Texas A & M research on the role of SOLUBLE calcium in increasing grain weight, and also bulbs of vegetables. There's also a government document on the role of calcium to manage 35 physiological disorders in plant, among them blossom end rot on tomatoes, end rot on pears, and increase firmness in blueberries.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5067064

Calcium chloride is used in agriculture, it's different from sodium chloride (table salt). Both have high salt index, that's why I use Calcium sulfate (gypsum) with a low salt index of 8.

From the Texas A & M research, application of soluble calcium increase absorption of ammonium up to 100%, which explains why my Duchess de Rohan went from completely yellow leaves, to dark green with SOLUBLE gypsum (calcium sulfate). It also greened up pale King Arthur (Harkness rose).

I hope that the info. I put in this thread will helps folks to grow the largest & most solid root-ball for winter-survival. It will help own-roots to establish better in a dry climate.

See link below for Texas A & M research "Using soluble calcium to stimulate plant growth" Below is Crown Princess Magareta rose, no more weak neck with SOLUBLE gypsum. It's nice to have Austin blooms that stand up despite the zillions petals.

Here is a link that might be useful: Texas A & M University and soluble calcium

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 10:16

What I have been wondering about, Theresa, is how you are distinguishing effects of your treatments from coincidental effects of weather, etc., given the general absence of duplicate control plants?

Most of what you are applying are nutrients in some form (some fairly risky, it might be noted), so if a plant were actually experiencing a deficiency, a treatment might theoretically remedy that. But, change in bloom character might coincidentally follow a treatment simply because other, uncontrolled factors have changed.

A lot of my rose varieties show differences in bloom color, form, and substance simply due to weather. A vivid example is 'Fred Howard' in the photos below: pale yellow flowers result from cooler weather, strong apricot/orange tones from warmer weather. Recently, due to sharp turns in the weather, he actually had both colors on the bush at the same time ('Joseph's Coat', move over! -- unfortunately, I did not get a photo of that this time). Other roses I have do the opposite, becoming paler than usual in hot weather ('Reve d'Or' comes to mind, for one).

Other than temperature, the other major controlling factor seems, as Kim and Kippy point out, water. Even if there is an abundance of every nutrient that can be used by a plant, ambient conditions (temperature and moisture availability) control whether or not the plant can actually utilize the nutrients (note that these echo the major forces that shape vegetation everywhere on Earth: climate and precipitation).

Bottom line, for Josh, is that a simple weather change will likely accomplish deeper bloom color, with or without the molasses, etc.

'Fred Howard' in cooler weather (June):
{{gwi:303267}}

'Fred Howard' in hotter weather (July):
{{gwi:303269}}

Exactly, catspa.

Or, I currently have a dozen young plants from 1-gal. Although they have had identical treatment from me, some are growing much better than others. If I had been "experimenting" by putting a little ketchup on variety A and a little mustard on variety B, I might think I had caused the difference, and I had learned something important about what condiments variety A likes or doesn't like. An anecdotal observation like this can be suggestive, and might lead to a controlled experiment that would yield real knowledge. But in itself the observation shows nothing about causation. There are a million agricultural and horticultural superstitions, and they all start with an observation like that. "I deadheaded above a 5-leaflet, and my roses bloomed again." "I planted potatoes on the dark of the moon and I got a good crop." When I first came on this forum, a hot topic was someone's observation that "I sprayed my roses with Miracid, and the black spot went away." Apparently the actual cause was a change in the weather.

Geez, I wasn't aware that this is a forum for postdoctoral fellows to submit their research proposals to some institution. I'll take any help I can get from Theresa, and yes, I'm aware of controls and double blinds. Diane

Nanadoll, I am with you.

I glean information from just about everyone, as there are a lot of intelligent folks, knowledgable in various areas, participating in these forum discussions.

Because of where I garden, hot Vegas, my fundamental knowledge of science, more statistics than I care to even think about, and experience conducting experiments as part of both of my Master's thesis', I can discern, accept, appreciate or not utilize changes in what I do based upon the input from others.

Everyone seems to be rose lovers who want to make roses grow, thrive and be beautiful. I do not believe there is a magic bullet that will work for everyone, so sharing information, experimenting with ideas, being open is a good thing.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 17:42

Edit-- removing a post because it encourages drift into an ad hominem quarrel. Sorry.

The issue I wanted to press is "how can we tell whether an action is helpful or harmful?" In many cases we can easily do a crude control, such as spraying only half the roses.

This post was edited by michaelg on Wed, Aug 14, 13 at 9:09

What I appreciate about Mrs. Theresa's posts is the fact that she is aware of the results of genetic variation amongst roses and how nutrient uptake is affected by that. Having a near-complete bachelor's in Biochemistry, during which I took courses where we studied the nitrogen cycle in plants, why phosphorous is necessary, and how potassium is a key component of energy anabolism, I understand the chemistry Theresa is using when she adds or withholds certain nutrients from her roses. I assume reason why she has not run a full double blind study with her plant nutrition plan is because unlike humans, plants are not genetically similar enough to make sweeping assumptions as a result of a study. With the modern cross hybridizing of roses, and the manner in which roses sexually reproduce, the genetics aspect of roses is a grab bag of possibilities. Because of that, each plant thrives under independent conditions though they may be classed as acid loving, alkaline loving, weak necked, etc. which allows Mrs. Theresa to inherently understand what sort of additions she needs to make in order to try to make each plant perform its best. And when the biochemistry of her experiments is examined, one finds that it is scientifically supported and sound. If that is not enough, I will be the first to pony up and say that Mrs. Theresa grows not only much healthier and overall better plants than I do, but they produce blooms far superior to my own plants of the same type. So she is clearly doing something right that I am not.

As for Kim's postings about water, yes H20 is a necessary aspect of all roses' health as it acts as an electron carrier in Photosynthetic center II during ATP phosphorylation. Without such a carrier, the RUBISCO cycle of gluconeogenesis does not occur post-ATP synthesis and the plant suffers as a whole. But whenever watering, unless one uses de-ionized water, there is also application of trace minerals to the plants such as Ca2+ (Mrs Theresa's soluble gypsum). So how can we prove that it is the H20 alone which results in visible benefits?

So what I am trying to say is that everyone who has posted an opinion here is correct in some regard.

"So how can we prove that it is the H20 alone which results in visible benefits? "

That is the entire issue, Josh. We can't, any more positively than we can prove any of the other "treatments" resulted in the "immediate" improvements reported because ALL other possibilities are routinely ignored. All "proof" is posted to support the conclusions, regardless of any other possibilities. Kim

I enjoy reading about Theresa's experiments.

My dad loved experimenting and writing about his results. He usually tried the same thing for a few years to note what worked and what didn't. Because he was very much on the forefront of changes in gardening (and health) theory, I have been able to see what things in the end worked and what did not (all the iron objects in the soil)

I do get concerned that someone new to posting on this forum might not understand that experimenting is not a guarantee of similar results. Most of us do not dig up our roses/pull them out of pots to check the roots. Or chop roses to bareroot size regularly through out the season. I love looking at Strawberries green leafy babies and it would be easy to think that my plant with older leaves is not doing as well as hers, but I have to remember in my climate, leaves have enough time to get old and I like my roses much taller than knee height. Babies have smoother skin than grannies.

I worry when I read stories about how too much nitrogen one year made a plant a water hog and a change this year made it not need water. There should also be the mention that last year there was a major drought with super high temperatures and this year it has been cool with extra rain. I am not saying that too much nitrogen will not cause too much green growth that will need extra water because she is absolutely correct, just saying the climate factors in as well and should be mentioned and not discounted.

I hope that Theresa does not respond that she is being picked on again, I don't think any of the posters are trying to pick on her and I think most everyone enjoys reading what she is trying this year vs last year and how it turns out this time. There is just the concern that before everyone runs out and tries the same experiments expecting similar results that they take the time to look at the bigger picture or wait til next year and see if the experiments work two years in a row. Or even better, buy two plants and try the same experiments on one and report on them next season.

I really enjoy reading what she is trying out and think I would have a fun day visiting with her in her garden. We don't have similar desires in how we want our landscape to look, but that does not mean I can not appreciate her efforts and experiments or that one is right or wrong.

Here is my accidental experiment:
I purchased 6 $3 Icebergs roses, 4 are planted in this bed and are all about 15" tall. They are on fill dirt and watered only when we check that drip system zone and decide they need water (sorry about the dead weed in the background, should have pulled that first)
{{gwi:303270}}

This one gets a bit of water everytime we turn on the water supply to the garden (we have a shut off valve by the house and keep the water shut off except when we intend to use it) This one is a bit bigger than the first 4 but has nicer green growth and is at least 24" tall. Also on the same fill dirt as the first 4.
{{gwi:303272}}

This last one is on the same soaker system as the one shown above. But this section of weeping hose weeps much much faster than the rest and keeps this rose wet consistantly It is taller than the same fencing the others are still growing up.
{{gwi:303273}}

You can see the tons of flowers and the more than double height and extra volume

All get similar sun, heat, shade, compost, mulch etc the difference is the method and amount of water.

Kippy - the - Hippy,

I love the YMMV. It could be a good caveat....? Some of us are totally aware that gardening practices differ. There are folks who do not water until July/August and minimally, most of you know what the result would be in my Las Vegas garden if I tried that one. There are folks who read the posts and do not participate; but soak up the information. If everything was taken by some as an absolute or universal standard, they are likely to have some interesting gardening experiences; I shiver to think about it.... However, those of us who are savvy enough to know what is going on with our soil ( professional testing plus on-going observations), researching and doing our own little tests could be fun. I am currently testing potting soils with three SDLM's, purchased at the same time, getting the same sun, in the same kind of pots, and getting the same amount of pre-measured water from the same source. But even this will provide results that could be more suitable for folks in dry, very hot summer climates.

I see both sides; protecting the novice and a desire to share one's findings. I am a novice in terms of growing own roots and anything in pots. It is important to ask questions; that's for sure.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 20:05

Since Josh asked me questions, I respond to Josh only to protect myself from bystanders.

Josh, I took Biochemistry in college, got an A, but it was my most difficult class, so I respect your biochemistry background. I also took one full year of Organic Chemistry.

Chicagoland is a 4-seasons climate, where it can drop by 20 degrees in one week. July/August is our most stable weather. For the past 2 years I could not get Sonia Rykiel to deepen until the molasses/vinegar treatment.

There are 3 classes of pigmentation in color change. Here's an excerpt, see link below:

"Anthocyanins, such as cyanidin, provide a natural sunscreen for plants. Because the molecular structure of an anthocyanin includes a sugar, production of this class of pigments is dependent on the availability of carbohydrates within a plant. Anthocyanin color changes with pH, so soil acidity affects leaf color. Anthocyanin production also requires light, so sunny days are needed for the brightest fall colors".

I was about to buy aluminum sulfate to shift the color of "Blue Mist" to the blue zone, but aluminum sulfate can be toxic to roots. Last year Blue Mist rose was lavender in acidic potting soil, plus I watered with used lemons. Then I planted Blue Mist in my alkaline clay, and it became pale pink.

It's that way since last summer until now. This month I treated Blue Mist with molasses/vinegar, and got deeper lavender, more like purple now. So the result is even better than last year in acidic potting soil.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chemistry of leaf colors

Strawberry, I am really glad you take the time to respond to questions so thoughtfully and thoroughly. You are a giving person, intelligent, curious, a great asset to this forum!

I edited a post above. I am not trying to suppress discussion, just saying that we should cast a critical eye on anecdotal observations.

Experienced growers know that the weather and sun exposure have a powerful effect on the color of some roses, and of course color changes with the age of the flower. So, any attempt to influence color by other means needs to be checked with a control.

Referring back to the forum's Miracid vs. blackspot craze, it was picked up by writers in other media. Hundreds or maybe thousands of people bought a product they didn't need and let their blackspot get worse that summer. Then somebody did a little study that showed it had no effect. That is what we should have expected. If foliar urea (or some other familiar item) prevented the biggest problem in rose growing, people would have learned that long ago.

Strawberryhill,

I dislike that you feel attacked ( this is not to make light of your feelings but sorrow). I have read the posts, some people disagree with your methodology etc., and unless I missed something ( still convalescing so tapering off..) they have respectfully disagreed. Dialogue is important. Caution for newbies and ideas for others to play around with. I enjoy seeing your beautiful blooms, reading about your experiments, but know that everything tends to appear and often manifest differently in my garden due to a myriad of causes.

I contemplated responding for 12 hours; being new to this forum, but my sense is the vast majority of the folks here are good people; "human beings", with varying levels of experience, expertise and opinions.

I will end my post with this:

Einstein was doubted by so many of his contemporaries. British astronomer, Arthur S. Eddington provided images that contributed to Einstein moving on; providing even more proof regarding his theory of general relativity's validity. So, if a genius can deal with doubters, can't you? Do what you love.....

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Wed, Aug 14, 13 at 13:22

I'd heard that 'Jude the Obscure' was supposed to be a very slow-grower on its own roots, but I think someone forgot to tell mine, which came as a band from Heirloom Roses back in April of this year. It was potted in a mix of equal parts (by volume) of peat moss, Bovung dehydrated cow manure plus humus, and shredded hardwood mulch in a 2gal pot. 1 cup of Jobe's Organic Knock-Out Rose food was sprinkled in layers as I filled the pot, and its first soaking was with half-strength fish/seaweed emulsion. Set out in full-sun, it received lots of rain, some hose-water in July, and one additional fish/seaweed emulsion feeding. It's now about 3' tall. Unfortunately, I had to cut back two other canes which snapped last month...you'll notice it looks oddly short on the right side.

:-)

~Christopher

Before (April 16, 2013):
{{gwi:303274}}

Its first bloom I allowed (July 3, 2013):
{{gwi:303275}}

Today (August 14, 2013):
{{gwi:303276}}

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Thu, Aug 15, 13 at 18:45

Thank you, Christopher for those great shot of your Jude the Obscure. I also use Jobes Organic food mixed with potting soil ... ran out, which reminds me to get more.

Christopher, I'm very impressed with your Jude on fish/seaweed emulsion ... I see amazing results on the Neptune fish emulsion website, like giant pumpkins! It's a bit pricey for me to use on all my 50+ roses, but I'll get it just to baby my Jude band.

The below Hisbiscus site explains color changes in flowers well: Hot weather increase carotenoids (yellow, orange). See below on color changes in Hibiscus blooms:

"Carotenoids increase production in response to heat and lots of sun. The hotter and sunnier the weather gets, the more carotenoids a plant produces, the brighter the oranges and reds will get. When weather cools off, carotenoid production decreases, and colors become softer oranges and yellows. "

The Anthocyanins pigment (red, purple, blue) are best in cold weather, and lessen in heat. It's also subjected to carbohydrate (sugar) content and lowering pH. See excerpt:

"Anthocyanins are produced in sap by a reaction between sugar, or brix, and protein. Higher sugar or brix content in the sap and an ability to produce proteins plentifully are both requirements for a plant to produce maximum levels of anthocyanins."

Here's the link "How flowers get their color" and below excerpt: http://www.proflowers.com/guide/how-flowers-get-their-color

"Another way to change the color of a flower petal on a much smaller scale is to change the PH level of the anthocyanins An easy experiment you can conduct yourself is to crush a red rose petal on a white plate with the back of a spoon or spatula and add either vinegar or baking soda and note the color change."

Schultz Organic fertilizer 3-1-5 is molasses, low-salt, and safe. There's 10 mg of sodium per tablespoon of Plantation Molasses, and 15 mg of sodium per tablespoon of Tree of Life molasses. That's much less salt than the salt index of chemical fertilizer:

Urea at 74.4% salt, ammonium sulfate at 88.3% salt, and ammonium nitrate at 34% salt. Muriate of Potash (potassium chloride) at 116.2% salt.

Exceptions: superphosphate is low at 7.8% salt, monopotassium phosphate low at 8.4% salt, and Gypsum (calcium sulfate) also low at 8% salt. I have heavy clay that retains salt well, so organics is best in my garden.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of hisbiscus flower colors' changes

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Aug 14, 13 at 17:09

edit message to add this pic of Blue Girl with Jude the Obscure--two candelabrum I picked. Awful pic, I'm sorry, I have an awfully old antique of a camera! I wish the opposing color contrasts show true to life.

Christopher,

Your JtO looks happy and healthy. Thanks for chiming in from New Brunswick. Did you get a chance to explore the area? There's a long stretch of Raritan Canal along the Raritan River that's extremely nice to walk, jog, bike, stroll ect... full of ducks, fish, honeysuckles and, naturally, poison ivy!

I also purchased mine as a band from Heirloom last year around Aug--or was it a month earlier, or maybe a month later? Of course we are in different zones, and I'm glad to hear JtO isn't a slow grower for you either, he does however take time to mature and to have good quality and quantity of flowers, as with many roses grown from bands I guess. I remembered seeing pics of Hoovb's Jude and Masha's (theirs are grafted, I think) and thought to myself mine still has a long long way to go... Oh, yes, Diane has an enormous Jude also--just loaded with blooms!

Lynn,

Thank you for your sound sense of good judgement--or is it the other way around, good sense of sound judgement; like Alice, I'm just thinking in a dreaming sort of way today--and that, "Dialogue is important." Very wise and very fair! Agreements and disagreements are bound to happen, Straw, but please please don't feel you are being picked on or being attacked. I mean, your roses are all looking beafutiful and healthy, Sraw, you must be doing something right!

This post was edited by prickles on Wed, Aug 14, 13 at 19:19

Thank you, Prickles, for your kind words. Prickles, I'm impressed with your 150+ blooms on your Young Lycidas. The only time that I saw that many blooms were pics. from a Japanese rose garden, which testify to the benefits of seafood fertilizer.

I could had use Aluminum Sulfate to make my Blue Mist rose blue, rather than light pink in my alkaline clay (pH 7.7). However, aluminum sulfate is toxic to roots, versus calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (gypsum) help root growth. Aluminum sulfate decreases both root growth and nitrate uptake. See the excerpt below:

"Root elongation at 1 mM Ca2+ was decreased to 63% of the control by the presence of Al3+. Raising ambient Ca2+ from 1 to 10 mM in the presence of Al3+ restored elongation rates to 78% (CaCl2) and 88% (CaSO4) of elongation without Al. Because reductions in root elongation were partially overcome by added Ca2+, but lowered uptake of NO3 - was not, it was concluded that Al3+ toxicity decreased root growth and NO3 - uptake by different mechanisms."

*** from Straw: NO3 is nitrate, CaCl is calcium chloride (high salt), Ca2+ is calcium, CaSO4 is calcium sulfate (gypsum), and Al3 is aluminum.

Here is a link that might be useful: Aluminum toxicity, nitrate and root elongation

I don't see how aluminum sulfate could turn roses bluer. This idea is probably based on a confusion with hydrangea, in which acid soil conditions raise aluminum uptake, activating the blue pigment delphinin. Roses do not have delphinin, which is why there are no blue roses.

Reddish anthocyanin pigments in roses turn purple as the flower ages, partly in response to the cell sap turning from slightly acidic to pH neutral with age. If aluminum sulfate added to the soil affected pH within the flowering stem (which I very much doubt), it would acidify, resulting in more pink and less purple flowers.

This would be the opposite of what the post above suggests, that acidifying would cause more purple tone.

But again, color variation in roses is caused mainly by the weather, as the link about hibiscus explains. The exception is that generally happy and properly nourished plants produce brighter reds and pinks than depleted plants.

Michaelg,

During my hot, dry, summer I have definitely seen a change in bloom color due to weather. Sometimes it is so drastic that one wouldn't think it was the same rose bush if rose petal color was the only determining factor. It is a major reason why I do not grow lavender roses and at one point only grew a handful; those with a color so deep that when they fade, something nice remained, but it was never a true lavender.

My soil is terrible, I did not need a test to reveal that information, as the company that built the raised bed filled it with primarily sand ( the stuff one uses to fill a sandbox). For the past two years, I have been amending the soil with a concoction used in previous gardens here, but am awaiting professional results to determine a more definitive analysis so I am not blindly adding amendments. So, here is the question. We amend our soils in February, and about now. We water to some degree year round. Is it possible that my soil utilizes much of the readily available nutrients for uptake, and is left with next to nil in available nutrients, including those impacting a rose's color? With magnesium being involved in intensifying a rose's color, if it was available, as wells as the proper balance of other essential nutrients, minerals, and pH that make the appropriate uptake by the plant possible, maybe all of this combined will off set "some" of the summer fade I get, especially with certain colors?

Lynn

Given the large number of posters on this forum who complain about fading color on their roses when the temps rise very high, my guess is that how hot it is outside and how much direct mid-day sun the rose is getting has more effect on the fading color of the rose than do some "magic" ingredients added to the soil.

But then, I'm just guessing--based on my own experience and the experiences of so many other rose growers. I could be wrong. : )

Kate

Duplicate deleted.

Kate

This post was edited by dublinbay on Thu, Aug 15, 13 at 13:13

Lynn, there is a cure for excessively sandy soil, and that is to add 10%-15% by volume (no more than that) of high-quality clay in the form of plain clay kitty litter, mixed in thoroughly a shovel-bit deep. It will greatly improve retention of water and nutrients, including some nutrients that organic matter alone does not retain.

Good that you are getting a soil test. It's best to dig in phosphate, if needed, but the other nutrients can be added effectively from the surface as fertilizer, so there's no need for the soil to run short of nutrients.

I don't know whether further soil improvements will help flower color, but I doubt it. That is, assuming your plants get enough nourishment to grow well during good growing weather. One thing you can do (before you buy plants) is ask the forum how well varieties handle the heat and whether they retain good color in the heat.

Speaking as someone whose energy level allows only the most basic care of my roses, these are the observations I've made in my hot, dry garden with porous and poor soil, and very low rainfall.

1. Mulch is absolutely essential. A thin layer is useless, it needs to cover the soil very well.

2. Adequate water is essential. Even with mulch the roses suffer after even one day without water in the heat of summer.

3. Rain water is best. There is a dramatic change in the garden after adequate rain which has drenched the soil thoroughly. The rate of growth and bloom as compared to hand watering is phenomenal.

4. Alfalfa seems to be beneficial if the roses have had sufficient water and mulch.

I would love to try some of Teresa's experiments, especially in regard to mildew and to keep blooms from flopping over. The flowers and leaves of the roses she posts are impeccable, and it would be great if some of you could experiment with some of these treatments in your garden. Many of us are plagued with mildew in the spring and I for one would be thrilled if that could be avoided without using toxic chemicals or some arduous method like spraying the leaves of all the roses with some concoction.

Ingrid

Ingrid, I think you may find many of our mildew issues are actually water stress induced. I'd read in LeGrice and Harkness that water stress caused mildew. I wasn't sure how much I should believe their claims until I forced resistant varieties to mildew in triple digit heat with very low humidity, conditions and time of year when mildew should never have occurred.

When I experience mildew or rust issues on a rose, I now increase the water and both have frequently improved, often to the point of simply going away. You might experiment with the method to see if it helps improve the issue for you.

I totally agree with you about the difference between rain and irrigation water. Even rose seeds "know" the difference. Germination begins and continues with hose water, but let it rain well on the seed tables and they come up like a new crop of grass or weed seeds. Part of it may be the generally cooler, higher humidity conditions rain usually occurs here under, but part of it is the actual water quality.

Many of our soils here are quite "salty" in calcium and other salts. Our water is, also, due to many of the sources as well as what water companies add to raise the alkalinity to prevent corrosion of the water infrastructure. Drip irrigation exacerbates the salt issues by applying just enough water to keep the plants growing, but never enough to actually flush the additional salts through the soil. Often, the results are like water evaporating from saucers under pots. The salts build up in the soil until they approach levels inhibiting successful performance. Drenching the beds with the hose can help reduce the salt levels by flushing them through the root zones, but not as efficiently as rain water.

Overhead watering in our hotter, more arid areas helps dramatically, too. Areas which actually have rains throughout the year might not benefit from the overhead watering to the extent many of us will because the rain washes the debris and dirt from the foliage and helps clean out the fallen leaves and petals from the plants. I frequently blast out climbers grown against walls and fences to remove the dead material, spider webs, and other "contamination" our lack of rain permits to build up inside them. The extra hydration from those "baths" helps the plants function more efficiently, both by cleansing them from dirt and dead material as well as knocking down insect attacks early, before they have the opportunity to establish themselves. I do the same with free standing bushes in the beds, for the same reasons. It very frequently results in dramatic improvements in health, growth and bloom. And, all it has taken was plain, old water. But, as I said, your mileage may easily vary in areas with higher black spot pressures, greater rainfall, and less severely arid conditions. Kim

I am eagerly awaiting the soil test results:) While summer temperatures will impact my roses, it seems there is some support of expecting that a properly prepared, nutrient and mineral richer soil should decrease some of what occurs. Lavender turns gray, almost white. If my roses can properly uptake what is given, especially after the first flush, maybe the roses will do a better job at withstanding all the things that nature throws at them, and nutrient deficiencies etc., which can exacerbate variations in color, decrease bloom size, and insect attacks may be less drastic. I may be able to grow a rose that during the first flush actually looks lavender and after April has some resemblance of that color:).

We have been adding a thick layer of compost to amend the soil, and mulch to help with moisture retention twice yearly, but only for a year now. I read that pine bark is a really good mulch to use for alkaline soils? What are your mulch choices and why?

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 15, 13 at 16:52

Roseseek,

Rainwater is out for me:( 4.5" annually spread throughout the year. However, now I understand why it has be recommended to give not just roses, but trees a deep watering with the hose:)

Lynn

I think you'll find some of the most important issues in selecting a mulch material are going to be availability and price, Lynn. Many materials available in one region are simply unavailable in another. It depends upon what the commercial processing industries are in each region. For many years, redwood was available everywhere here because this is where they grow and were processed. Fir was more common in other areas because they grew better in them and were processed for other uses, leaving the sawdust, bark and pieces unsuitable for the other uses available for "mulch" and other amendments.

The same held true for oak leaf mold. It was commonly sold, bagged, here, and not as common in other areas of the country because there were other materials there which were more cost effectively available. Of course, with Sudden Oak Death becoming the issue it has been, and other economic factors involved, neither are as available as they once were.

Here in El Lay, we have our Green Barrel material the City "composts" and makes available to homeowners free of charge. I don't use it because there is absolutely no way to know WHAT is in it. At one time, it used to be available commercially in bags from nurseries and garden centers. You couldn't use it on tomatoes and other sensitive plants due to the lawn herbicide residues it contained. Depending upon the concentration in the batch, it could literally kill the tomato plants. It's also very possible the "mulch" contains Black Walnut, Oleander, Pepper or Eucalyptus material, all very allelopathic.

There is no easy access to where I need and use mulch on this hill. Everything has to be dragged down several stories of stairs, so I don't bring in much material from outside. I do shred anything not known to be allelopathic I cut from the hill and use every bit of it I shred as mulch. Fortunately, the ficus repens on the front street wall, bamboo, ginormous bougainvillea, Washingtonia and Queen palms fronds, huge Banksiae roses, the neighbor's xylosma "forest" hanging over the fence and my own plantings provide me with a fair amount of material. Certainly enough to cover what I need or want mulched. Kim

I know what you mean, Lynn. The past two years, we've received only about 40% of our "norm" in annual rainfall, 12 versus nearly 30 inches total for the two years. Flushing salts through the soil is definitely one of the issues. Putting SOME moisture back in the deeper soil where it just isn't these days is probably as important.

For many years, Los Angeles relied upon local wells whose water was actually rather 'soft'. There were hundreds of small, specialty nurseries all over the County, offering some amazing plant materials. Once the City went off the wells and over to the Colorado River Water Project, our water went from soft to highly salty. Of course some of the specialty nurseries closed due to aging owners, land becoming too expensive for the use and other factors, but MANY closed because the hose water they relied upon to remain in business, suddenly became too toxic for their plants unless softened before use. Early softeners used rock salt and increased the sodium content of the water greatly, also not good for plants. Eventually, most of the nurseries would have closed for all the reasons you normally lose them, but the sudden elimination of suitable irrigation water certainly helped close many. Kim

Lynn

I have tree guy friends that often supply wood chips free and delivered, in truck load batches. If you know someone that will bring you a good batch it can cover a lot of bed space very deeply.

Like Kim, I will not take the stuff the city will drop off free. I do not know what is in it and don't want back what I send out.

Your city will deliver it, Kippy? Mine won't but they offer it free, "you haul", seven days a week from the Lake View Terrace facility. Kim

Kippy, the Hippy,

They cut Palm Fronds here.

Okay, I am being a little facetious, but a bunch of mature trees is not something we have an abundance of. Although, there is Old Las Vegas and surely mature trees must exist there requiring all sorts of trimming. My fear is the diseases, pesticides etc. that I do not want to enter my garden, but it is worth investigating. Thank you for the information.

I usually purchase my mulch out of bags at H.D., but I know there are better products on the market; especially for alkaline soil. My garden is not large, and a lot of the land is taken up by our house and the swimming pool.

I used palm fronds and trunk grindings. They actually hold up really well, but are kind of light so will blow.

I watch for the sales on the natural (not the usual dyed red/orange) wood chips at HD too. Sometimes I get them for 3 for $10, when I am lucky it is 4 for $10 and worth having them in bags. When I was messing with the arch Don Juan is on yesterday, just moving a layer of those chips back and the damp soil was alive with nice fat earthworms. That is rewarding!

Wow!!! I only see worms in my herb and tomato garden as they are raised beds and have soil I added. Others than that, there is nothing in my soil except of an occasional earwig that I don't like or Rollie Pollies. I even moved worms from my herb garden to the raised planter and nothing....

Growing up, I would go fishing with my dad and he had a worm bed so I have seen large worms. In my previous garden I saw a worm that was so long and fat it was clearly the size of a small baby snake. . I was actually a little frightened when I saw that one. I will get there again:)

Lynn

Lynn, pine bark or pine needles are not going to acidify your soil significantly if at all. If your soil test shows that the pH needs lowering, use sulfur for that.

michaelg,

I use soil sulfur twice annually, but am re-landscaping most of my yard and amending other beds per the testing results. I had read that some mulch materials were better for alkaline soil; so given a choice, if I could find something that helps even if it is just a bit, added to what I will already do, especially if it is something simple like choosing one mulch material versus another, it is a plus. If I have to drive 100 miles or pay three times as much for a small benefit; that will NOT happen, it would not be worth it.

Living in such a summer challenging environment, I will do a lot that I consider within reason to help my roses be healthy.

My water is 7.8 pH and my plants get a lot of it for the majority of the year. For all intents and useful purposes; we do not get rain, 4.5".

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Fri, Aug 16, 13 at 20:07

I've actually learned a great deal from this wandering and occasionally cantankerous thread.

A thought about the pH of tap water: it doesn't matter much. Most people's water will test between (say) 7.3 and 7.8 because, if the water is naturally acidic, the supplier will treat it to protect the pipes. What matters is the total alkalinity (a quantity) rather than the pH (a ratio). In most of the East and other areas where water is naturally soft, the total alkalinity is low even if the pH is 7.5 or whatever. There is just not enough stuff in the water to have much effect on soil chemistry.

But hard water from limestone springs or wells will have higher total alkalinity that could impact the soil chemistry. Also, out west, the raw young mountains are still leaching lots of solubles into the runoff. This means that western rivers like the Colorado have high total alkalinity plus a load of salts that can build up in the soil with long-term irrigation.

So there's probably no value in running out to check the pH of tap water. It will be alkaline, but the test doesn't tell you how the water will affect your soil.

Michaelg,

I'm out West, and receive my water from the Colorado River. It is hard water, and many folks have indoor water softeners as a result of it. My water information came from the local water authority and one of the pool companies here will test water; it is really convenient. Like roseseek suggested, we flush our plants a couple of times per year due to the salt build up. I do not know how the alkaline water that my plants receive loads of impacts the soil overall; but I do know that my soil has a high pH. Anything I can do beyond soil sulfur because of the overall state of my soil, within reason, I investigate. I do not make choices in haste, but gather up as much information as possible and go from there.

Thank you for the info. as my next step is determining if I am able to ascertain how the water impacts my soil or if it is something that I shouldn't have any concern with, as there is no easy way to impact what is does, or it does nothing significant.

Lynn

Hey Lynn, I wasn't reacting to you particularly. There have been a number of comments about water pH on this thread that I thought might lead people in soft water areas to be unnecessarily concerned. I had those people in mind, but didn't make that clear.

I'm sure you have high total alkalinity and salts in your water. You are doing the right things, monitoring soil pH, adding sulfur, and flushing the salts out occasionally.

Wow! Deleted. That duplicate posting was weird.

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Sat, Aug 17, 13 at 16:22