Lyn, where you are, I think you can just leave them out and they'll be fine.

I left six 2-gal pots on my front porch unprotected over the winter here in NJ. "Darlow's Enigma", 'Souv de Victor Landeau', 'Cardinal de Richelieu' and 'Charles de Mills' simply went to sleep. 'Mme Isaac Pereire' and 'Belle Story' kept waking up during warm spells, trying to grow, and to their undoing. When Spring finally came, their freeze-damage became too much for them, and they slowly died back to death. I noticed that the pots did freeze a few times when the weather hit the teens at night (the lowest this Winter), but as long as the daytime temps were above freezing, the soil didn't freeze solid.

This year, any that don't get planted will be kept in their pots and partially buried in the main flower bed. I'm ordering a big mulch delivery in the next couple weeks, and that plus the chopped tree debris underneath should come about halfway up pots placed at soil-surface level. I'm planning to just dig a few more inches into the soil, and then bunch up Autumn leaves around the pots. We get a Winter here, but it's really only about a month when daytime temperatures remain below freezing.

:-)

~Christopher

I second what Christopher said. 90% of my roses were one gallons last year. I just put them in my most protected area (I'm Z7) and they did just fine. With the exception of a couple of enthusiastic early bloomers who did die back and die.
I know you are out in the desert and I'm unfamiliar with that climate. Do you have strong winds? What is your average night time low?
Susan

Hi,

Our Las Vegas winter averages are:

Hi/low
Dec: 57/39
Jan: 58/39
Feb: 63/43

Sometimes during January, the temperatures will dip down into the high 20's, low 30's. This usually does not last for long.

What is of concern is what you both have written about roses that do not stay dormant, which causes their demise. I could easily see our temperatures causing the same issues possibly?

Lynn

Chris.........

I think the method you are planning on this year will probably give you greater success. When I first bought my house, I was given a housewarming gift of 150 roses all in bands.

I had no clue as to how to overwinter them because this was a new climate for me. The major difference is that I had all of them potted up into much larger pots, not necessarily the best for new roses, and I have very heavy rain/snow during the colder months of the year,so I didn't pull the hoses out from under the house to water. I didn't lose any of the roses even though my night temps are always below freezing with day temps in the high 30s and low 40s.

I clustered all of the roses pots with the tallest in the middle of the cluster and surrounded the clusters with bags of leaves. I also filled in the gaps between the pots with bagged leaves. I figured it would take much longer to freeze a larger mass than a smaller mass. Digging in my soil is very hard labor, so I didn't dig a trench to lower the base of the pots into the ground which had been suggested.

I also think the larger mass somewhat mitigated the freeze/dry issue as I think the temperature of the whole cluster stayed pretty constant. This is speculation. I did not go out into the rain or snow to test that assumption.

Since I really didn't have to worry about the pots drying out, I didn't water the plants during the winter months, but if I lived in a dryer climate, I would make sure that none of the containers got bone dry during the winter months as that would certainly lead to the death of a rose.

I've read that a lot of people who over winter their roses in their garages during the winter months, water their plants at least once a month.

Lynn ... I don't know if this information will help, but I think it can give you a starting point.

Smiles,
Lyn

If nighttime temps don't go lower than the high 20s and daytime temps again rise above freezing, I don't think you'd have a problem with any rose that's listed as being cold-hardy to one zone BELOW where you live. Mine kept breaking dormancy during the time when the pots froze solid, and that caused the problems. Your temps don't sound like they'll result in pots being frozen solid for more than a few hours at night (if that...mine were frozen solid only when DAYTIME temps remained below freezing, which was only for a few weeks at Winter's peak).

:-)

~Christopher

Roses in Las Vegas will not go dormant. However, new growth on typical modern roses will be nipped by freezes of 26 to 28 degrees. Since the plants are small, I would try to prevent that by covering the plants lightly with leaves or something on the nights when you expect 28 or lower.

For colder areas, Lyn's point about thermal mass is important. Have the roses in decent-sized pots pushed close together. Put them on bare ground, pavement, or a slab to garner ground heat and insulate around and over them. The south foundation of a heated building will be the warmest spot in the yard. The center of the slab is the warmest part of an unheated outbuilding.

I won't leave any rose in a band, period. It is too much to expect it not to either fry or dry up without warning in this climate. Once in gallons, unless there is a huge heat spike and they're fully exposed, they'll survive until I can get the hose to them. Kim

I should have been clearer; my oversight. The bands are potted up to one gallon. The ones that arrived as one gallon own root are in the same pots they arrived in, or have been potted up to 5 gallon.

Michaelg, would mulch work instead of leaves?

What if I doubled the pots? My bands are primarily Austin's and OGR's.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 19:41

As with so many things, you need to figure out where you are, and where the people you are listening to are. If they are close, a decent first pass is to do what they do. If it doesn't work, then try and figure out why.

My parameters are so different from what you are working with that anything I say is simply going to be confusing. The only thing I'm willing to say is that those temperature ranges are what we call Spring, when everything is growing as fast as possible. Which brings up the question is the goal to push the plants, then have them go dormant during the summer.

Most of my roses go dormant in July and early August only. I have roses that are in bloom right now. I guess I have been so busy babying my bands, that with the exception of those I see from the window near my desk, I have failed to notice them until yesterday. There aren't as many roses as a spring flush, and they are a little smaller, but I have not fertilized with anything since April, and water daily. All of the roses in my front yard, with the exception of one bush are in bloom right now. It is hot here, but for some reason, roses tend to thrive.

I usually prune roses in the ground during late December and strip off all of the leaves. I have always been told that doing so forces dormancy? I do not know what is going on underneath the soil, but the roses do not put out any new growth until March. ( no leaves, increase in size above ground etc.)

I was thinking of placing them in the garage when it becomes cold. What is the biggest issue for the own root babies in pots? Is it the roots and soil only or what is going on above as well. I wrap my palm trees in burlap. I am wondering if I can bundle them on the patio and wrap burlap around the containers or if that even makes sense to do. It seems early to be thinking about winter, but it is my nature to plan ahead. I am appreciative of the input you all are providing.

Lynn

Duplicate post.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 23:52

I'm in zone 9 too. My bands get potted up to 1 gal pots (if they're tiny pathetic things) and my 1 gal arrivals and "nice" bands move into 2 gal pots. The "dark side" is drowning them, if you know how to water, then no problem. other comments linked below:

Here is a link that might be useful: how long do you keep fall bands in pots?

This post was edited by sandandsun on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 21:12

More on the dark side: potting mix matters significantly.

In the desert which my conditions simulate here's what you don't want:

You don't want a potting mix that has any perlite in it. NO PERLITE
(Why? Perlite was invented to improve drainage - do the math)

You don't want a potting mix that is primarily peat moss.
(Why? If allowed to dry out between watering, unless soaked, the mix never subsequently allows water to the roots - a big reason for failure with absolute novices).

1 + 1 (primarily peat w/perlite) = the absolute worst for zones 9, 10, possibly sandy 8 and coastal 7.

Also, I don't use and I don't endorse "moisture control." I know how to water and don't want or need to adapt to being fooled by the mix (which simulates no natural soil on earth).
This is another danger for novices - the lifeguard says red flag.

What then, does SandandSun believe I should want for my potting mix?

Trust me; you won't have many choices left when you eliminate the what-you-don't-want from the shopping list. Get anything that isn't on the bad list and it should be alright.

Then make your own!!! That's right. Buy some compost if you don't have your own. Buy some manure if you can't get that free. Add like a cup of each, plus a cup or more of your garden soil (or yard dirt) per 2 gallon pot and mix it all up.

Lastly, your mix will usually end up if it doesn't already start out that way, DRY. So, after you pot up, have a catch basin, bin, etc. under the newly potted rose and water until water accumulates in that reservoir beneath the pot. I usually leave mine in the "reservoir" overnight to ensure the potting mix is initially thoroughly watered (saturated).

Then it's pot gardening until planting time. (OMG, can I say that given the new law in Colorado, LOL)?
Again, other info in the previous post link.

I think since you potted them up into gallons already you have done the #1 thing I'd recommend. Miracle Grow Moisture Control potting soil works well for me and I grow hundreds of band size and potted plants outdoors all winter.
One year using a heavier soil resulted in much more loss to rot. They stay wetter when temps are lower and evaporation is lower. Still, I'd keep an eye on them to make sure they don't dry out, and I'd keep them out of wind.

In winter I move most of my small plants to the south side of my house and put the tenderest ones closest to the house. If temps get in the single digits I try to move them all under my house temporarily. I think it's best to keep them cold and dormant, not warm for extended periods. An extension agent told me that plants put out a natural antifreeze when it gets cold but if you keep them warm too long the antifreeze dissipates.

I find most small plants do fine in a lot more cold than what you get. Insulating with leaves or mulch sounds like it would be helpful, or grouping plants. A neighbor suggested placing plants on black plastic which would retain heat for awhile at night. An extension agent told me that even a small amount of cover like shrubs would trap some warmer air and protect them better than being in the open. In my situation I think rot from staying too wet and wind damage are the main hazards in winter. Las Vegas is so dry, you might need to water more. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think that when a plant freezes, a main cause of damage is that freezing causes the plant tissues to lose water. So after a freeze I water if they look like they need it.

erasmus,

I'm fascinated by your statement:

"...I grow hundreds of band size and potted plants outdoors all winter."

Hundreds is a whole lot. How many of the "plants" are roses?

Do you own a nursery? Always good to know of another source.

If not, would you explain why you do this/what you do with them?

Lynn,

What to worry about over winter in your zone? As I said, soft new growth may be nipped on the coldest night of the year. This is not a problem except with very young plants that would be set back a bit. Any type of temporary cover would prevent that, or move them inside for that night only. In colder zones, roots can freeze in pots, especially small pots.

I wouldn't keep them in the garage. That's for plants in deep dormancy, and you would want the temperature to be around 30 or 40 in the garage.

Picking off leaves does not induce dormancy. The plant will start growing out as soon as it can. Repeat blooming roses are evergreen in mild climates and want to grow and bloom all year. They do not need to be dormant. I suspect if you look around town at Christmas or New Year's, you will see lots of roses blooming happily in the nice, cool weather while yours are unhappily leafless. In zone 9a Florida we did not try to "induce dormancy."

(Stripping old leaves that are diseased can be helpful in some circumstances.)

Michaelg,

Actually, around town, many of the roses are pruned down by January 15th and the leaves are stripped off. It is recommended by the local rose society, the horticulturalists in the area, every nursery in town, and many of the roses planted even in commercial applications get the same treatment. I have noted this protocol at a large shopping center I frequent during December and a few other places.

After pruning and stripping the leaves in late December, my roses do not begin to even leaf out until sometime in March. I have been continuing this protocol for about 12 years, and it has never been different in terms of the roses not showing any signs of growth, bud swelling and leafing out two months; there are just brown sticks/branches throughout the yard. At one point I grew 150+ roses and there were no exceptions; brown sticks everywhere for at least two months. That is why my concern was even though there are no signs of winter growth above ground, whether it is due to the long standing protocol here of pruning and stripping to "force dormancy", or even if everything was left on the bush, leaves and all, there still would not be growth above ground ( I know this because I broke my foot one December, did not prune/strip, and the roses did nothing really until March) BUT maybe something would be happening underground and that would give cause for concern. Most of our plants are not own root, and I have only used this protocol for grafted roses as own root plants are new for me this year. Most of my own root roses potted up to 1 or 5 gallon pots have been here for about 6 weeks now.

Whether the roses are truly dormant or not, is of no consequence to me at this point. My concern is I will have about 17 own root plants in 2 - 5 gallon pots on my patio this winter. The temperature lows in January will likely be in the high 20's to the mid 30's consistently for that month and years of experience have shown me that even though we have blue skies and it is as sunny as can be here during the winter, my roses in the ground do not grow above ground during these temperatures. Moving those plants to the garage every night will be a pain and thus I am searching for an alternative treatment that will not require that protocol as I do not know just how fragile these plants in pots are.

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Mon, Sep 2, 13 at 16:20

OK, sorry, I should not be arguing with universal practice in Las Vegas.

Again, temperatures in the upper 20s will not kill your small 1-gal plants, but can kill the growth tips if the plants are growing.

Well, I'm like you, Michael. I thought I was missing something when I saw the low temps for LV. I can get down in the teens two or three times during winter (never stays there very long), but I certainly don't do anything to protect my potted roses in winter. I do, however repot bands into gallons. There must be something going on in LV other than temps.

Here is a difference between zone 9 Nevada and Florida that I should have thought of. In the desert climate, you can get very strong radiant cooling on clear nights. This means that dark surfaces such as rose leaves that are facing the night sky will be chilled well below the ambient air temperature.

Roses will grow and bloom in a zone 9 winter as long as the new growth isn't chilled below ~27 degrees. Even then, after two weeks of mild weather, new growth buds will break and become flowering stems. But in the desert, leaves can be chilled to 26 when the thermometer reads 30 or maybe 32. So maybe USDA zone 9 areas in the desert are zone 8 for practical purposes.

Lynn says she doesn't get new growth until March. For goodness' sake, I get new growth in March, sometimes early March, here in 7a.

I said I wouldn't argue, but I think, if I lived there, I would try letting the roses bloom until growth is stopped by a hard freeze, if it is. Otherwise you are wasting good growing weather. Then I would prune when new growth buds start to swell, as is the normal practice in zones 8-5.

Michaelg,

The roses are pruned, stripped of leaves and dormant oil applied to them no later than January 15th. This process is something that I would suspect the roses must recover from thus maybe that is why the folks at the Cooperative Extension and others refer to the process as "forcing dormancy". I dont know, but they are the experts, and this process has not caused any issues thusfar.

Depending upon the year, maybe the roses could continue to grow. I have gone through the forcing dormancy process all but one year. Last year the lows hit 26 for days and I lost a handful of plants; shrubs. Last year, it was a little colder than usual. Maybe those few degrees, the age of the plants made a difference.

During February, around President's Day, we add our organics to the soil to prepare for spring's growth. Shortly thereafter, our roses really begin to grow. The first blooms on some roses can be seen in late March, definitely by April. January is our coldest month, and by the latter part of February our highs and lows usually reach 63/43 respectively. The weather can be interesting; especially in the mountains that are less than an hour away. The skiing season is usually over by February, but two years ago, the same month, several inches of snow were deposited overnight. People without 4wd vehicles or chains got stuck at the lodge in the mountains.

There are aspects of rose growing that I cannot explain; it is not within my expertise, but I do know what I have done, witnessed over the years, and have seen practiced. Las Vegas is known by those who garden here as being a place where roses thrive. Once they take off, the rate of growth is astounding.

Lynn.......

I think you are making the overwintering of these roses too hard. I know you are a planner, but sometimes you just have to wing it.

I started my rose life in San Diego and was given the same advice as above. San Diego is also considered to be Rose Heaven.

Note the ARS giving that advice in San Diego gave that timing so that the first flush of perfect roses would be ready for the rose shows in early April. It takes about six to seven weeks for a rose once it has set bud to bloom, so if your timing is early April you work back from there. You do not have to follow that timing if you are not worried about having roses ready for a show, but are just growing roses for your garden and don't need perfect roses, but need healthy roses.

Cooperative Extensions and Master Gardeners have been parroting the advice given by the local rose societies for more than 60 years. That's because they do not specialize in roses and figure the ARS must know what should be done for their care.

In San Diego, we stopped dead heading our roses in October and then began our pruning in December to be completed by Valentine's Day, so that they would be ready to show.

My experience and personal opinion is that you stop deadheading in October, allow the rose to set seed and then the rose will go as dormant as nature will allow that rose to go dormant. When we dead head, we are interrupting the plant's natural cycle of getting pollenated and then setting seed, which stimulates the rose to re-bloom. If you don't dead head, the plant will complete it's natural cycle and rest.

There is no need for dormant sprays unless you have a serious disease problem or unless you want perfect foliage for a rose show.

I believe in leaving the leaves because the rose will abandon them when they no longer perform the function needed for the rose.

Studies show that the photosynthesis process stops when temps reach around the 70 degree level. So you can take them off or not. I think they provide a larger mass for the top growth and leaving them on helps protect the canes from the colder temps.

Cluster your pots on your patio and surround them with bags of leaves or mulch and stuff the same material in the gaps between the pots to make a bigger mass and to protect the outside pots from the colder temps and to keep the temps within the mass as constant as possible.

If you feel you need to protect the top growth from freezing temps, you can cover them just as farmers do with their crops.

These are small roses, they don't need to be pruned for the first year except to clean out the rose and shape it. (Note: I don't even shape the rose until it's been in the ground for at least two seasons, but I live where temps get colder.) You want it to grow out of those gallon cans, so you might as well just let it grow. Cutting them back/pruning them when they are small just slows down that process because the roses are storing nutrients in their canes.

I now live in a climate with temps lower than you have reported. I over-wintered roses outside for six years in containers before I got them all planted. None of them died. I should have replaced the soil in those pots, but I was too busy digging rose holes in rock.

I had to over winter the pots in a totally unprotected yard and I did not go out in the rain or snow to cover them. I also had to maintain those roses in direct sunlight in high temps that lasted for months.

The key to my success was the larger mass. Not taking off leaves, spraying or taking off leaves. It kept the temperatures and moisture more consistent.

In my best year, I could only get about twenty out of over one hundred roses planted.

The only thing you need to do differently than I have done, is to make sure the pots don't dry out while they are resting on the patio. I've been told watering once a month is sufficient, but it doesn't hurt to check and see if you need to do it more often in your climate.

Once I got them in the ground, they my roses took off even better than I expected because they finally had a chance to spread their roots.

So your choice is to go by the book or wing it.

Smiles,
Lyn

PS ... this rose, 'Kim Rupert', looked horrid in the pot, this is how it looked the first year I got it in the ground.

Floridarosez9,
I must have miscommunicated something here.... or you mis-interpreted something. I have one rose BUSH that is growing in a rather large pot, it is the floribunda Iceberg. It has been there for two years and I do absolutely nothing to it during the winter; actually, it does not even get pruned. It is a grafted rose, planted when it was 5 gallon size. No problem.... I live in a mild winter climate, but what one does to and exposes a grafted rose to, may not be something a young band in a one gallon pot or a gallon own root can tolerate.

My "forcing dormancy" information came from numerous sources that produce information specific for Las Vegas, including the local rose society and every nursery. It is their opinion that the roses need a break; especially prior to dealing with our high temperatures during the summer. I have been following this protocol for years; with the exception of one year. With the exception of my little bands and one gallon roses, all of my rose are grafted, in the ground, and in my climate , I have absolutely no concerns regarding winter hardiness. I have never lost a grafted rose to cold or heat.

What I do have right now are many bands that were received 6 weeks ago, and a handful or so of 1 gallon roses from R.U. that I have only had for about 6 weeks as well. Some are in one gallon pots and others were potted up to 5 gallon pots. Since the heat here is something that I had to take into consideration when caring for these roses, as they have required protection, because they are fragile at this point, my only concern was if they will require any winter protection? Growing own root bands and roses of the 1 gallon size is new for me.

Michaelg wrote that my winter temperatures "will not kill my little bands, maybe just the tips".

I have invested time, money, and am having my yard re-landscaped. The plan includes spring planting of these roses in my yard; so their survival and health is important.

Lyn suggested to surround the pots with bags of leaves or mulch. Thank you. I have to see if that is feasible in terms of space etc. if protection is deemed necessary.

What I have been trying to ultimately determine is if my winter temperatures; as they are mild, should be of no concern at all for the pots sitting on my covered patio; maybe someone has communicated that, I wouldn't know at this point because my head is spinning regarding things that are off topic, like my pruning practices for my grafted roses which I have no issue with, and will continue, as I have grown many grafted roses with success in my climate for well over a decade. My mistake as well for being off-topic with the "forcing dormancy"/winter pruning.

I have had an epiphany, and that is to contact Heirloom, Rogue and Burling. This is no disrespect to those of you who have chimed in with advice; even those of you who gar den in cold winter climates, but they are the vendors from whom I have purchased these roses, and communicating my concern directly to them I believe is prudent.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 19:54

Lynn, I understood that these were all small own-root plants, and that's what all of mine are but in one gallons. I do not winter protect at all, even though my temps can get down in the teens for short periods of time. I simply stated there must be other factors to consider in LV other than temps. I didn't mean to offend, but if I did I apologize.

Lynn...

I didn't realize your bands were so young. I, too, apologize if my post came across to strongly.

You really do sound like you know what you are doing with your roses in LV. Sometimes, it's just hard to trust yourself when confronted with something like this.

You can only do the best you can. I have found that the heat was harder on the roses than the cold.

Good luck with your roses and let us know if they make it.

Smiles,
Lyn

Lyn,

It is not a function of trusting myself. I know precisely what to do with the grafted roses I own; generally speaking, not own root roses in the band and small stage. My intellectual nature, curiosity, mixed with a tad of the need to control, leads me to pursue becoming informed versus "winging it".

I read a lot, ask questions, conduct research, and try to make well informed choices. I have been devouring information regarding growing own root roses for months now, and being the "planner", am obtaining the necessary information to over winter my bands. I began growing these own root bands outside, potted to one gallon, when it was 115 degrees here, and they are thriving. I would be extremely surprised if given my new course of action, diligence and care, if they did not make it through my mild winter. No worries:)

Lynn...

I was trying to apologize, but I found that sometimes even when I have done my own due diligence, I still didn't trust myself completely until I had made it through the whole project. If I misspoke, I am sorry.

Smiles,
Lyn

If they will be on a patio under fairly solid overhead covering, then there will be no extra cooling from exposure to the night sky.

Lynn

I tend to research the options, ask 100 questions and then kind of wing it on what I gleaned from the answers.

I don't know that I will have anything left in a pot for the winter since I am waiting on fall to plant the roses that I know will be harder to remember to check on daily like they need here in the heat. But since a frost warning makes the news for days in advance, it is easy here to throw a sheet over the smaller frost sensitive plants (the banana trees are on their own) I don't worry about the roses or covering them even when they are small. If I had a bunch of them on my patio, I would probably put a table over them and then cover the whole thing with a sheet for the night.

Things that get frost damage here are usually just the bananas and a few of the veggies that might still be alive from the previous spring. But even then, we have last years peppers that dealt with the hard freezes we got and produced more the second year than first.

I have read that many varieties of established roses will begin to stress once temperatures hit the upper 80's. I have not found anything scientific regarding damage to roots on young plants in pots relative to colder temperatures. I have only read the USDA zone tolerance that people seem to successfully push all the time, and did wonder if this rating has any bearing when plants are young. Sometimes my thought processes go too far in the realm of scientific predictors, numbers, etc. I know sometimes things happen and it appears to be due to no rhyme or reason; other times what happens just defies science and I have to tell myself to get a grip...relax.....

I would rather play it safe than be sorry. Many have offered great suggestions, thank you. Kippy-the-Hippy, your suggestion is perfect for my situation because the bands are currently placed about 3 ft. Away from a large outdoor table on the covered patio/balcony. I already move them in and out of the sun daily. If we have an unusually cold winter snap, I can just slide them under the table and cover the table. Perfect!!!

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Wed, Sep 4, 13 at 19:33