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| OK, most of us know the story about this rose, and how it was confused with the old tea rose 'Mademoiselle de Sombreuil'. That is not what my question is about. My question is about the rose we now know is NOT a tea rose, but might be some sort of Wichurana hybrid. HMF says that it was hybridized in 1880, but introduced in the US (as Colonial White) in 1959. This seems very strange - does anyone know where it was in commerce between 1880 and 1959? I know some of you know this story, and I can't be the only person who would love to hear it. I was thinking about this rose because (despite the fact that HMF has 13" as it tallest height) has grown 3 stories (at least 25 feet) up my house and is still climbing UP - see picture (yes, that is it climbing up along the downspout). Thanks - looking forward to a good story! Jackie |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| Jackie, it was almost certainly NOT bred in the 1800's, and was NOT in commerce in those times. The 1880's date was slipped in there because, during the arguments over correcting the records, one expert averred that it had to have been in commerce at that time, because there were ads describing 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' as a VIGOROUS rose -- and "everyone knows" that Tea Roses are not vigorous. Seriously. Tea Roses are "not vigorous." During all that brouhaha, Mel Hulse, and Jim Delahanty, and myself, and others did some serious digging to try to find any source for this rose that did not originate in some triangulation between Melvin Wyant (who introduced it as Colonial White) and Roses Of Yesterday And Today. We found NONE. ALL of the plants of Cl. "Sombreuil" in commerce ANYWHERE eventually traced back to ROY&T -- making it almost a certainty that it was there that the substitution took place. The place was flooded at least once, back in those times, and it's possible that the error was made after a flood that mixed up roses. It's probable that we won't ever know. But, other than that business of Tea Roses not being vigorous, there was no reason for that 1880's business. I have my own guess where that lovely rose originated, but no concrete proof -- so I'm not gonna further muddy the waters. Jeri |
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| A rosarian once told me he thought 'Sombruiel' syn. 'Colonial White' was an R. wich X Bourbon cross, he pointed out that R. wich. shows in the genetic influence of the foliage and the large onion shaped green rosebuds show Bourbon influence. That still does not give us a date of introduction. I think if it did have a Bourbon parent I believe it would probably have been bred before 1930. Nota Bene "probably". If the climber 'Sombruiel' syn 'Colonial White' has any Tea blood, I imagine because of the color and delicacy of the petals, and the shape of bloom, it could be a hybrid from S.D.L.M., which is a Tea-Bourbon cross. |
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| Personally, I'd bet it is a New Dawn seedling. Wichurana is a chameleon. It accepts many characteristics of the other parent quite easily. Several miniatures with strong Wichurana backgrounds do similarly. In this climate, it's sufficiently mildewy that I could easily believe there is Malmaison in it, but the petal substance is more HT like than a Bourbon cross should provide. Kim |
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| But it is not mildewy here, Kim -- and God knows, we have a mildew-prone environment. I really, truly, think it is a rose of the early 20th Century. Jeri |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 9, 13 at 21:16
| Since Sombreuil is on my buy list, is there any difference between the ones you have or have seen from the various nurseries? |
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| Not surprising, Jeri. Climate induced water stress. You SEEM dry, but in comparison, you aren't. You get a lot more fog than we do here and it is significantly hotter here which, combined with the greater aridity, induces water stress related mildew. I agree with you about the 20th Century probability. New Dawn didn't occur until 1930, and, ironically, was plant patent # 1. It isn't common to obtain such reliable repeat bloom from a first or even second generation Wichurana hybrid. It does happen, but not frequently enough to be considered "common". New Dawn, however, produces repeat flowering seedlings right down the line. Take New Dawn and combine it with some vigorous old HT of light to blush pink, or even white, and you could easily get that flower. Take a look at what Ralph Moore got from Muriel (9-16 petals) http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.18605.1 Crossed with Lulu (9-16 petals) http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.3939 When he first showed Sharon, Judy and I those flowers and asked if we thought anyone would buy it, we stopped counting petals when we hit 135! It all depends upon what's behind the thing and the luck of the draw. Kim |
Here is a link that might be useful: Pink Powderpuff
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| Kim -- That's interesting. The thing that nags at me is the fact that Melvin Wyant introduced it as "Colonial White." The breeding he listed for it was impossible, and given Wyant's habit of appropriating other's roses, I suspect this was another rose he "bagged" from one of his neighbors. Jeri |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Fri, Aug 9, 13 at 23:01
| Thanks for clearing up the "1880" date on HMF - perhaps that will get corrected sometime. Jeri - I remember hearing a reference about a rumor about a guess...about a neighbor. Forget the names, what roses was that neighbor using to hybridize, or was he at all? Just curious. Whatever its parents, it is a fabulous rose - mine doesn't get disease, and re-blooms over & over. And, the blooms are so gorgeous. And they self-clean! Once I was having lunch with a friend in the shade of its arch on our patio on a hot day, and a little breeze came up, and petals gently drifted down on us - my friend was SO impressed! Here is another pic - Jackie |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 9, 13 at 23:16
| What is pink powderpuff like? I did not see any comments on it but there were some lovely picutres. I love my colonial white but I wish I had not planted it on wires against our pale blue skies. It just looks like leaves. I did better when planting my MAC against something darker. |
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| Wyant may have bagged it from someone else, or he could have figured giving it a "romantic breeding" might sell it better than something like "New Dawn seedling". Austin did it many times and continued claiming "Old Rose breeding" even when the stated parentage was 1949 J&P climber X 1966 Armstrong floribunda (Abraham Darby). Or, he honestly didn't know what it was and figured that is what it LOOKED like. That's been done many times, too. Perhaps someone passed it on to him with that claimed lineage? Who knows? I wish someone would DNA test the blamed thing and clear it up so it would go to rest, though. At least no one is claiming "Colonial White" is a danged Tea anymore. It's as much Tea as New Dawn is. Pink Powderpuff takes a little while to get going but once it does, watch out! A friend in Torrance has one which has been in place probably twenty years. She is one of the ladies I mentioned in the original post about Pink Powderpuff above. Hers is kept to the top of the six foot wire fence between the backyards. It easily shoots up another four or so feet before she whacks it off to keep it under control. In Torrance, it's clean and flowers in flushes all summer with a very nice scent. Unfortunately, the only way to get it is own root. The only way it's ever been available is own root and that requires much longer to produce the type of growth you want from it than budding would. It really is a beautiful rose. If I had some fence space I could get to and a bit of decent soil in which to grow it, I'd have it here. Kim |
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| That neighbor worked with a lot of wichurana -- tho not exclusively. He worked with setigera, as well, et all. He and Wyant introduced a rose together, in 1935. Jeri |
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- Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY (My Page) on Sat, Aug 10, 13 at 10:34
| The thing that always struck me about Wyatt claimed breeding was just how confused once blooming OGRs were in the US at that time. So instead of Madam Hardy, he could have been working with a white once bloomer like Madame Plantier which had been called Madam Hardy. |
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| I believe Kim's speculative parentage is likely right; I bet it is a 'New Dawn' seedling. |
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| The ARS was also foolish to reject the name 'Colonial White', a very nice name that does not perpetuate confusion, and very likely the first name the rose was given, even if given by a crook. |
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| Exactly, Michael -- and that was my argument. I lost. Jeri |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Sat, Aug 10, 13 at 16:32
| Thanks Michael and Jeri, for answering my next question (why didn't they call it Colonial White after the confusion was cleared up?) before I had a chance to ask it! I should have known the ARS was in there somewhere - it was probably because they had so many exhibitors growing it who had been winning prizes in the OGR category, and couldn't anymore, and they didn't want to make them any more angry than necessary. Still a bad decision. I hope, like Kim, that some day someone will look at this rose's DNA - Jackie |
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| Jackie -- That is 100% correct. Jeri |
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| I love reading things like this: combining facts with opinions and experiences is so much more interesting than just facts. I also love Sombreuil/Colonial White and it grows like a maniac even in my cool climate. |
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| I love reading things like this: combining facts with opinions and experiences is so much more interesting than just facts. I also love Sombreuil/Colonial White and it grows like a maniac even in my cool climate. |
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| The problem is that the ARS is mainly (exclusively?) interested in labeling roses to best organize them for show purposes, not to deal with taxonomic issues, as Jackie has pointed out. So why, you may wonder, are they in charge of assigning names and classifications if they are going to disregard the facts? |
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| Probably because at the time they were made the International Registrar Authority, they had sufficient wealth and people to handle a pain in the neck function for which no rewards, other than the "prestige" of being the authority could be had. Now, who else is there to do it? Even more importantly, WHO else would want to? As many of us are aware, the ARS attempted to charge for registering a rose some years ago. That failed miserably. Not only did the US majors stop registering them, the Europeans stopped and some never came back. Kim |
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| I was once told that 'Colonial White', AKA 'Sombreuil' was, in that persons opinion, a sport of New Dawn, sort of like a white version of 'Awakening', I suppose. I doubt that because CW does not seem to be quite as hardy as ND, or many other of its' descendents. What are the chances of CW being a ND sport? Is anyone growing CW anywhere colder than USDA zone 6a? |
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 13:36
| While ARS has certainly made some big mistakes over the years, and in many areas has much to answer for, I have to disagree on this one, with greatest respect for some of my "rose heroes" above, who don't agree with the decision. I was on the Classification and Registration committees when this went through, and here was the train of thought (with which I still have to agree, with only small reservations): 1. "Colonial White" was rejectable in that there was no reason to think its namer was its originator/introducer. Also, we did not feel inclined to "reward" a suspected rose thief for his efforts. In any case, this rose could not possibly be the rose (based on parentage) that he claimed it was. 2. The vast majority of people in the US (and perhaps the rest of the world?) already knew this rose as 'Sombreuil', thanks to RoYT's many years of selling it under that name, while relatively few had heard of or grown 'Colonial White'. There is always the confusion issue -- how many people will we anger and for what reason(s)? 3. Since the old Tea rose is better named 'Mlle. de Sombreuil', there was no true duplication of names here. (Also again, most Americans were not growing that rose, or if they were, they were growing it as 'La Biche', the name given it by the Huntington's ID, and under which it was long sold by ARE.) As for the possibility of 'New Dawn' being a parent, that would be very easy to test, and I'd be happy to add it to the list of questions we want to answer through DNA work. As always, there is a shortage of students with the time and interest to actually run those tests, so we only accomplish a few of them per year. But this would be a great (and easy) one to do. Yes there was certainly some concern about a change of name from an exhibitor's standpoint, but in this case, I really think the interests of the Old-Rose community were also taken heavily into account, and I did vote in favor of the current naming situation for these roses. |
This post was edited by malcolm_manners on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 13:57
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 14:20
| Thanks, Malcolm! So good to get facts from those who were there at the time. Re the DNA list, I vote for putting the issue re Sombreuil/New Dawn on the list! I understand the reluctance you describe re not "rewarding" bad behavior. However, now that we can use hindsight to assess what that ARS decision did, I have a strong impression that keeping Sombreuil as the name has turned out to have extended/continued the confusion about 'Sombreuil' being a tea rose, which it certainly is not. An example is the fact that HMF is still listing 'Sombreuil' as having been hybridized in 1880! Also, I have seen it described in more than one current catalogue as a tea rose. I don't think this sort of confusion would have occurred if the ARS had accepted the name Colonial White, and listed the hybridizer & time of hybridization as unknown. That way the continuing (and to me maddening) references to this rose as a tea rose would probably not be still going on. I am interested in this rose, which is a fabulous rose. Folks who could probably grow it won't even try if they think it is cold tender. The rose should not be punished because its parentage is unknown and its introduction was clouded. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, so I am not so much criticizing the decision as lamenting it. If DNA analysis could be done, and if it revealed part of its parentage, that would be great, as it would provide facts as to its likely cold hardiness, etc. Jackie |
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| Malcolm, thank you! Sharing the thought process behind the decision explains a lot and makes it much easier to understand. I appreciate it. Nastrana, reduced arctic hardiness isn't necessarily an indication that Sombreuil isn't a sport of New Dawn. A sport may easily be altered from the original in many respects, but it's the obvious, visible changes we're most easily aware of. Jim Delahanty had (still grows in his garden) an orange sport of Distant Drums which resembled the original in many respects, except flower color and its chronic addiction to mildew in that garden. The original would grow through the mildew. The orange sport refused to, no matter what he did to/for/with it. Radiance and Red Radiance are very strong growers. Mrs. Charles Bell isn't quite as vigorous. Careless Love is even less vigorous, but still usually decent enough for most gardens. There are many other examples of mutations being degenerative, and also a number where they actually improve the plant. I wanted to attempt to give examples, but it appears HMF is under attack again, so I can't check my facts yet. Kim |
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| How interesting to read that my perceived impression of the courtliness of ladies & gentlemen engaged in rose breeding is in fact wrong. Apparently, the business can be as down-in-the-dirt nasty & dishonest as the cattle breeding & registration I'm more familiar with. I used to personally breed cows at several big-name ranches--& the things that go on! The favored method of recording lineage of many new calves was: "well, he looks like 'Mr. Big Bull'--write that down". Roses or calves--PEOPLE are the same everywhere :) |
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| Yes ma'am, people are people, no matter what the industry or pursuit. Some pursuits naturally attract more of the 'down in the dirt nasty" people than others. My impression is those are the ones offering the greatest rewards, fastest. Kim |
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| Malcolm -- That DNA test would be a great boon! I hope it can be done. I have to say, tho, that I agree with Jackie -- Retaining the name 'Sombreuil,' and that 1880 date, may have been done with great intentions, but it sure has extended the confusion about the whole thing. Jeri |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 17:09
| Oh dear, oh dear - it is MUCH worse than I had imagined! I googled "Sombreuil rose", and of course up popped several web sites. Just taking the first few (ignoring HMF) here is what came up: Austin - showed picture of Sombreuil/Colonial White. Said it was an "old variety". Described Colonial White's growth habit exaclty. Did say that it was hardy, but also said that it was bred by Roberts (who was the hybridizer of Mlle. de Sombreuil). Beales - Showed picture of Sombreuil/Colonial White. Described Sombreuil/Colonial White's growth habit exactly. Said that it was bred by Roberts in 1850, and that it was a Cl tea. Zone 6-9. Other gardening & nursery web sites said that it was a Cl tea noisette, bred in 1850, which was also called Colonial White, and liked a warm climate. All of the pictures were always of Sombreuil/Colonial White. So, it appears to me that NONE of these sites have accurate information, and all have some sort of confusion with Mlle. de Sombreuil. NONE of them said it was a large flowered climber which might be a winchurana hybrid, and therefore might be cold hardy. I honestly don't think this would still be happening, 100% of the time, if the ARS had agreed to use the name Colonial White, to stop the confusion. Instead, it is proliferating. As I said, my only concern going forward is that when all of the resources say it is a warm weather rose, many folks will not even try to grow it. Does anyone on here grow it, or know that it is growing, in a zone colder than 6? That would be good information. Jackie
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| Even if the ARS had chosen to correct the confusion, Jackie, it would have still been unable to fix all the stuff you found. As you know, every piece of misinformation ever put on line remains there virtually forever. Add those who refuse to accept the change, no matter how irrefutable the proof and there would still be many instances of misinformation. How long was it known that "Jefferson Rose" was actually Softee, yet many still sold it as Jefferson Rose without the added information that it had been identified? It has been quite interesting reading old nursery lists and finding instances like this where the same rose was sold under the various names. Ashdown once offered the same rose under the names, Cornet, Grandmother's Hat AND Mrs. R. G. Sharman-Crawford. I received an email from a friend complaining he'd ordered one and was told it was sold out, yet the other two were in stock, in high quantities. There are often a variety of factors involved. Kim |
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| Yeah, that sort of thing cooled me off from buying many 'found' roses. Pretty soon even an amateur like myself recognized many of them were known varieties & I wondered whether selling them as 'found' roses was an excuse to avoid royalties. I saw Graham Thomas sold as a found rose in several nurseries 'way back when, & several Buck roses. Quite a few famous oldies like Crimson Glory, which are out of patent, too, but it seemed to me they were marketed as foundlings to increase novelty appeal. |
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| Jackie, I grew Sombreuil (grafted from Pickering if I remember correctly) for several years, in the '80s, when we were listed as Z5b. It grew to about 12 feet but eventually died one winter. However, an ash tree was increasingly shading it and so its demise may have been due to a combination of factors. Cath |
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| The one I had, in zone 5a, did not survive the winter. I am so far able to grow Parade, Rosy Mantle, Cherryade, Rhonda, and Coral Dawn, all New Dawn progeny. |
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| One reason you see Found Roses under multiple names is that they were found by different people in different places. A while back, Heritage Roses Group took to contacting nurseries to point out that they had the same rose under multiple names. Some nurseries did actually look at that, and corrected the problem. Others didn't. And of course, some still list that climbing rose as Sombreuil, AND say it is a Tea Rose int. in 1850. But if you look at HelpMeFind, you'll see that, wherever possible, they have listed all of the names applied to a given rose, and cross-referenced them. Very helpful! Jeri |
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| Malcolm, as long as the subject of DNA testing has come up, would it be possible to add Grandmother's Hat to the short list? With all the speculation on whom she might be.... Cornet seems to be a leading contender. If plant material of Cornet from Sangerhausen could be obtained, would one of the students be able to compare the DNA and see if they are one and the same? Melissa |
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| The problem is that while "Grandmother's Hat" seems to be a match for the rose now labeled 'Cornet,' at Sangerhausen, there is no guarantee that Sangerhausen's 'Cornet' is actually the historic 'Cornet.' Thus, testing one against another doesn't get you any forrarder. Jeri |
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 22:28
| Yes Tessiess and Jeri -- exactly right. Very easy to test if two roses are the same, or if one is the other's offspring. But neither of those two bits of knowledge can give the ultimate, original ID of the variety. Still, it would be interesting to know for sure if "Grandmother's Hat" is the same as Sangerhausen's 'Cornet'. Just as we've been working on all the things that seem to be the same as "Maggie." Kim said that online misinformation lives forever; Of course so does it in older "classic" rose books. And even if 'Colonial White' had been adopted as the name, all those old texts would still be identifying this rose as the climbing Tea 'Sombreuil', some with excellent photos of it, and the majority of the people who actually grow the rose would still know it as 'Sombreuil', the name under which they bought it. I guess it would "fix" the problem for old-rose newbies, but not for the rest of us. We can't change that. |
This post was edited by malcolm_manners on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 22:44
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| Not toward an absolute identification, no, but in determining if those two examples ARE the identical rose it does. It's the same situation with Burbank and Santa Rosa. DNA won't tell you which is which, but it WILL tell you WHO has which rose and whether there really are two, distinct roses remaining. Or, if they're all the same rose demonstrating climatic and cultural differences. I would also love to see if Dr. E. M. Mills really contains Spinosissima, Rugosa and Hugonis, or just two of the three. There are several other potential candidates for such testing. It really can make differences, such as Dr. Byrne's test eliminating Laevigata as a co parent of Silver Moon. Initially, it was reportedly a combination of Laevigata, Wichurana and a Tea. His results showed only Wichurana and Tea. I would enjoy finding out if Pearl Drift really contains anything from Mermaid, too. Kim |
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- Posted by zeffyrose_pa6b7 6b7 (My Page) on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 23:07
| Very interesting post-- Florence |
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 0:09
| Not to be picky Kim, but for the sake of accurate history, it was Charles Walker who did the Silver Moon work at North Carolina State U., as part of his Ph.D. research. And yes, such studies can be quite useful even if no absolute ID is arrived at. Agreed. |
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| Thanks for the correction, Malcolm. I heard it from David. Kim |
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| In my garden Sombreuil was healthy, but New Dawn mildewed. That makes me hesitant to think that they are directly related without more evidence. Rosefolly |
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 11:43
| Kim, Maybe David's lab repeated that work? That's possible. But Charles published his dissertation and a research paper with that work in it: Walker, Jr., C. A. and D. J. Werner. 1997. Isozyme and randomly amplified polymorphic DNA (RAPD) analyses of Cherokee rose and its putative hybrids 'Silver Moon' and 'Anemone'. J. Amer. Soc. Hort. Sci. 122(5):659-664. This was one of the earliest uses of RAPD-PCR DNA analysis for studying rose heritage that I'm aware of. And it was the paper that got us interested in doing DNA analysis work at FSC. |
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| The evidence in favor of a match bet. the Sangerhausen 'Cornet,' and our "Grandmother's Hat" comes from Barbara Worl and Miriam Wilkins. The two ladies were together, when Barbara spotted the rose labeled 'Cornet,' and said: "That's my rose!" (or something to that effect). To be honest (and we grow more plants of "Grandmother's Hat" -- and from more varied sources -- than anyone has a right to) I see the closest resemblance between GramHat and "Ragged Robin" (leaving out bloom color). True Story: We obtained "Grandmother's Hat" in the 1990's, via Bob Edberg -- who ID'd it as 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford.' This was in our exhibiting days, and we won 1-2 Victorian Rose certificates with it. under that name. Then, "everyone" said it must in fact be 'Cornet.' So, we showed it under that name, and won a couple of Dowager Queen certs as 'Cornet.' Then, "everyone" said, no, probably NOT 'Cornet' (and Bob was still insisting it was 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford') but "they" were letting Found Roses be shown under study names, so we showed it as "Grandmother's Hat," and won a couple more Victorian awards. THAT was pretty confusing, because you could walk through a rose show, and spot the same rose entered in multiple classes under different names. I was waiting for it to win both Dowager and Victorian at the same show . . . By the time ARS made a class for Found Roses, we were almost done exhibiting, but we did enter that class with GramHat -- only to lose to a superb "Benny Lopez." Jeri |
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| Thanks, Malcolm, I've sorted it out. It was Walker who made the discovery about Silver Moon (of which I learned from David Byrne). It was David who discovered Basye's Purple is only rugosa with no foliolosa in it. Kim |
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- Posted by Nippstress 5-Nebraska (My Page) on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 16:16
| For what it's worth, others have posted from zone 5 that haven't been able to grow this rose, but it's cane hardy for me in part shade in zone 5a, and I've had it for 6 years own root from Ashdown. Presuming of course, that this is the same Sombreuil/Colonial White that we've been discussing, but I'm sure Paul Z would be up on his classifications. There's no way this rose grows like a tea - given that I do grow some teas and have to baby them all the way. It's resolutely hardy for me in less than ideal locations, though it doesn't grow very big and does need some pruning out of winter kill most years. I'd be willing to bet it'd be root hardy in zone 4, given conditions that it likes (maybe dry conditions or consistent snow cover?). I also grow New Dawn, that's just in its third year (so no direct comparison is possible), but I don't see Sombreuil becoming the house eater that ND is supposed to be in my zone. As several folks have said, it doesn't mean they're not related, but most of my New Dawn progeny climbers seem to want to tend toward the vigor of ND, if not quite a house eater. Cynthia |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 17:20
| Cynthia - Yay! So glad to hear that Sombreuil/Colonial White is cold hardy for you in zone 5! Perhaps someone will chime in from zone 4 ....? Here in zone 9, we have decided to see how big/tall it will get - so far I have one cane up 23-25 feet on the house - will hope it puts out laterals we can use to go further up next year - that is an East facing side of our house, and the higher up it goes, the more sun it will get (there are a bunch of large trees shading the bottom half of that wall most of the time). Cl Iceberg and Buff Beauty are also on that wall further down - I am hoping for a race! Neat and tidy my garden never is, but it is abundant (neat and tidy folks would call that overgrown)! Jackie |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Mon, Aug 12, 13 at 19:08
| I would love to see Jackie! Neither my garden or my hair/clothing will ever be called neat and tidy. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 0:31
| Jeri I like your rose show story. Do roses ever change slightly over the years so that one in Europe will be just different enough from one in America to confuse us all a few hundred years later? |
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| I don't know, Kitty -- but I have heard it said that 'Gloire des Rosomanes' has more petals in Europe than it does in the U.S. I guess that wouldn't be surprising. It would have been selected here for sheer vigor -- with no care to bloom quality -- and also grown in huge numbers. In Europe, it would have been selected for bloom, and not in such immense quantity. But I have only seen it in the U.S., so I don't know. Jeri |
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| Thank you, Nippstress, for that report on CW. I may decide to try it again. It is a lovely rose. |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a (My Page) on Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 13:55
| I've read this thread with great interest and amazement at the amount of knowledge many members posses. Now, if somebody can help me, which is this rose listed by Peter Beales' in the UK as 'Sombreuil'? The description fits the old tea rose but Colonial White is also mentioned, while the flower pic points to the subject of this thread, I believe? http://www.classicroses.co.uk/products/roses/sombreuil/ |
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| Nik, I would say the Beales' photo is of the Wichurana climber substituted for the "real Tea", Mlle. de Sombreuil. The wannabe has more densely packed petals with shorter, more pointed central petals, arranged in a very firm, flat, dense "powder puff" than the "Tea". Because of the extremely double nature, densely packed center of shorter petals, I would consider his image to be the imposter and not the "original". When you hold the two in your hands, the differences are striking. Images just don't do that difference the justice required to be able to easily distinguish between the two. There are also vast differences in foliage, wood, prickles with the imposter actually being less mildewy, but definitely still a mildew magnate in the right conditions. Its wood is also much less limber, stiffer, and not as easily bent to your will. Kim |
Here is a link that might be useful: Mlle. de Sombreuil
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a (My Page) on Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 15:12
| Thanks Kim, this is what I thought myself, that it's Colonial White rather than the tea. Still, this being also a powdery mildew magnet dissapoints me a lot since I have this rose on order and PM is the main fungal pressure over here. I suppose I'll plant it somewhere out of the way in the plot border so I won't have to look at it closely every single day.. Would you say that it's as prone to mildew as bourbons like Madame Isaak Pereire and the like? |
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- Posted by jacqueline3 9CA (My Page) on Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 16:01
| Nikthegreek - definitely not as prone to mildew as Madame Isaak Periere in my garden - I had an IP and had to pull it out (which I almost never do) after three years of it being covered in mildew AND all of its blooms balling. I started this thread - you can see a picture of my Colonial White in the first post above. No mildew at all here - none. We live in a true Mediterranean climate - cool wet winters and long dry summers. By the way, my Colonial White has now reached the roof - actually my DH has been able to train it horizontally along just below the roof gutters - for about 10 feet sideways so far! So that means it has grown about 8 feet up from where it is planted, then 7 feet over to get to the house wall, then up another 2 stories to the roof, then 10 more feet sideways. Of course, we have been encouraging it, which you do not need to do. In our garden, there is so much shade that I always encourage climbers to get up to where they can get enough sun! Jackie |
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| Nik -- I'd say nowhere NEAR that mildew prone. Mme. Isaac Pereire mildewed constantly here, and rusted as well. Souv. de la Malmaison "only" mildewed -- but mildewed enough that blooms never opened. The climber, 'Sombreuil' rarely has a touch of mildew here, and has NEVER rusted for me. And I have grown multiple plants of it since 1987. I recommend it to anyone in our coastal area (with the only caveat that it has really vicious prickles). Jeri |
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- Posted by nikthegreek 9b/10a (My Page) on Tue, Dec 3, 13 at 0:10
| Thanks it's a relief to know that it is not as bad as MIP and some other bourbons. I can tolerate some early spring and late fall mildew but not a mildew disaster. MIP has not been a total disaster for me up to now. It does midew badly but seems to recover given some affection and it's still a young rose. I've seen worse. Variegata di Bologna springs to mind. Since we are on the PM subject here's my pet peeve. It seems most breeders, at least the European ones, are making conscious efforts to improve their rose disease resistance but it seems to me they are concentrating mostly on BS. That is understandable since they are mostly based in climates were BS pressure is high but does not cater for us PM and rust people. Nik |
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| You know, it is virtually impossible to breed against diseases which don't occur where you do your breeding. Black spot isn't much of an issue where I live, so if a seedling demonstrates bad black spot with some maturity, I dump it. Mildew and rust are the bugaboos here, and I am ruthless when it comes to selecting seedlings which have those issues. You have to be very careful, though. It is extremely easy to FORCE otherwise clean roses to rust and mildew by keeping them too dry. I never believed it possible, but I can honestly force healthy roses to contract rust and mildew by not providing them sufficient water. I can also clean them up by increasing the water to the level the particular variety requires for its immune system to function properly. That's not to say every case of rust or mildew is due to insufficient water, but I think you will be quite surprised how many are. Before dumping a rose because of either of those diseases, I play with how much water it receives. If it cleans up with proper water, It's likely a keeper. Kim |
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- Posted by jeannie2009 PNW 7/8 (My Page) on Tue, Dec 3, 13 at 10:40
| I find this thread fascinating. It just so happens that I ordered Colonial White/Sombreuill from Greenmantle last spring. It should be coming to the Pacific North West Spring of 2014 along with Spice and Lancaster and York. This will be the year of the mystery roses. Thank you all for sharing your extensive knowledge of this rose. I greatly appreciate it. |
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| It has been absolutely fascinating reading this thread. Who knew Sombreuil could have such a mysterious history? In any case I agree that this rose is certainly a wichuraiana hybrid. The thorny canes and foliage look nothing like those on the Teas that I've grown in my mother's zone 7b garden. I don't think Sombreuil is a sport of New Dawn. Each is distinct from the other enough to rule out that theory. As for the name I supported keeping it Sombreuil but have since changed my opinion. The names are too similar and do cause confusion. Regardless of whatever name it is called this white climber is a wonderful rose: breathtakingly beautiful blooms possessed of a heavenly fragrance (that also make excellent vase flowers), vigorous as all get out, fully hardy in zone 6, disease resistant foliage (at least in my region), grows well on its own roots, and shade tolerant to boot. It's only real fault is the vicious thorns. Image of Sombreuil by Suebelle at Hortiplex |
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