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Budding update..

Posted by roseseek z 10, SoCal (My Page) on
Sun, Aug 10, 14 at 20:00

I wanted to show how quickly it's possible to see results from budding. I posted it to my blog as Blogspot.com is an easier venue for posting longer posts with many more photos. Some of the results are quite exciting. Others are what I pretty much expected, but all have been very satisfactory. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: It's Been a Good Year For Budding!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Budding update..

Given my soil, Kim, I have often wished that I could try roses budded onto Fortuniana. If an old rootstock Fortuniana can grow lustily all the way up my hillside, it's certainly got energy.

And I'd love to see what would happen with 'Ragged Robin,' which is such a tough survivor in most parts of California.

I know both of those have survived, and even flourished in indifferent soils, and under intermittent drought conditions.

In these times, I think those are good qualities for a rootstock.

JERI

(Fortuniana blooming on the Hillside)


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RE: Budding update..

You'll have your chance, Jeri, the Eugene de Beauharnais is for you. I promised you one about a year and a half ago. It's taken this long to get things to this point. Kim


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WooHoo!
Fantastic photos! Congratulations!

I gotta brag on Pink Favorite some more, as a rootstock. The bottom bud of the 1-72-1 Hugonis I put on it 6/26 is over a foot long (!!!) & the second must be 7"!

And the Mme. del la Roche-Lambert I put on another PF last fall has shot out another fat shoot from the secondary bud.

Most of the other buds look good, too, but even those on established Huey & Ragged Robin plants aren't pushing like the ones on Pink Favorite. I can't wait to get some good roots under my Pink Clouds sticks & start trying them.

I'm new at this & understand concerns re. whether this will be a long-lived stock, but it sure as heck pushes buds. The mother plant my cuttings came from has been growing at my relative's house since its introduction in the late 50s.

Thank you again for patiently explaining how to bud & for posting such detailed clear photos! And for the Pink Clouds, et. al., too, naturally =)


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Good for you! I can see where PF could push things quickly, at least for a while. It's a very vigorous, husky horse of a plant, so it obviously pushes a lot of sap. While it may not be suited for the long haul, it could easily be used to establish the rose in your garden, permitting you to generate more cuttings/bud wood to use later. Congratulations! I'm glad the photos helped. I'm proud of your success! Kim


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Thank YOU kind sir!

Do you think now is a good time to clip the PF cane & try to root it with the well established new shoots? They are so long now--much longer than any typical cutting I take--maybe too long, now?

I know you like buritto wraps, but I'm getting better success with the mist now.
(I'll post a photo tomorrow)


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Your weather is right for the mist to work well. The budded piece is definitely well knit to the "stock" and the mist should keep everything from wilting. You may want to use any extra new growth as an own root cutting and leave a few buds length of the budded piece on the PF cutting for rooting. Did that come out understandably? I can see what I'm trying to say but it ain't coming out the way I want it to! You're welcome! LOL! Kim


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Yes!, leave the bottom growth of the budded shoots & clip the longest top part as an own-root cutting?

I'm gonna try that, as these buds are growing alarmingly long. And as you note, the danged hot weather works well when the things are under mist.

I might clip the top bud (7") from the PF cane to root first, leaving the foot-long one on the plant for insurance.


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I have had zero luck with rooting teas but I have high hopes for my little collection of cuttings of root stock from Kim.

I would love to see your mist set up Blue girl

My maint guy saved me some palets to make a compost bin. Shhhh I think they will be a work table and a seed table. I have a plan on making a version of mist that will work for me with out constant water


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Yes ma'am! Keep the base of the budded plant attached for safety and root the upper pieces now while it's hot and the mist is most effective. I'll tell you, if I had another two dozen (or more) rooted pieces of Pink Clouds and Fortuniana, I'd be pumping these puppies out right and left. They're WORKING really well as all the conditions are just right, right now. Kim


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Kippy, I forwarded an e-mail to you describing it, with photos, as I don't have my photos re-sized right to post here, sorry.

But it's just one of those little "porch coolers" available at Home Depot or Lowe's for ~$15. It has 6 brass mister heads, already set up. I run it with a simple battery timer, ~ $30, set at 20 minutes per hour.

It makes a HUGE improvement in rooting success. Here's some Clotilde Soupert cuttings at 15 DAYS!!


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This is cool. Just a couple caveats for the new budders -- remember that if you bud something with rose mosaic onto a stock, that whole stock will become systematically infected in a very short time (3 days to enter the stock, maybe a couple weeks to move throughout). So be careful what you bud to what, and I'd recommend always keeping a clean "mother plant" of your rootstock, onto which you never bud anything.

Also, For those who are good T-budders, realize that 'Fortuniana' is very difficult to T-bud, since the bark flaps tend to splinter into little shreds, no matter how careful you are. Hence the great advantage of chip budding. The other popular method for 'Fortuniana', in Florida, if you have mist, is to cleft-graft a scion (with at least 2 leaves still attached) to a Fort cutting (with at least 2 leaves still attached) and root the whole thing, as a big cutting, in mist. Leave it there until there are roots out the bottom of the pot and the scion has completed one growth flush. The advantage of this method is that, from start to finish, it takes perhaps 2 months less to produce a 2-gallon plant than does the chip bud method, if you time it from the date the 'Fortuniana' cutting was taken. But the down side is that you really need a mist bed for it to work.

Another tip for rooting 'Fortuniana' -- the brighter the light, the better. Many people say it's a difficult thing to root, but they are almost always rooting it in the shade. Our mist system has no roof on it, and it gets full noon-day sun. Rooting is usually 97-100% successful. Of course if you root under a jar or in a baggie, you can't give it that much sun or it will heat up. But in a mist system, it's possible. I also like a rather strong hormone for it, compared to other roses -- #3 powder or Dip-N-Grow at 1 part per 6 parts water.


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That's all very interesting and exciting Kim. I'm glad you had so much success. Budding is a skill I'd like to work on. Considering the import problems right now it seems bud wood is the way to go.
Thanks Malcolm for your suggestions too.


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thanks Malcolm!
I probably need to move my mist set up into more sun.

Back when I first tried it, I had only a full sun area--& it worked! Much less rotting. I'm still using an old can of Rhizopon #3 I bought ~15 yrs ago, but have been trying Dip N Grow.

Hmm, maybe I'll re-apply hormone & get the Fortuniana cups in a more sunny place. I'm anxious to root it, but never had much luck with species type roses.

Right now, I'm 'emergency budding' weak own-roots I'm trying to preserve--& yeah, if I've got virused plants, I'm distributing it.
So, to build up a reservoir of clean mother plants, is ordering from UCLA the way to go? I've visited their site a few times but the required record keeping seems a bit intimidating. I have a Ragged Robin from Pickerings, but I've already compromised it by budding. They're not listing it now--shame.


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Thank you, Malcolm! Fortuniana rooted for me using the wrapping method and Dip'n Gro diluted to about a 12X concentration, but it seemed to not want to actually push roots until the heat began. Everything else began forming roots very quickly once exposed to any light. As soon as the sun and air began heating up, Fortuniana began actually pushing roots and growing. Thank you for your experiences with it! Kim


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  • Posted by seil z6b MI (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 11, 14 at 15:08

Wow! They're really growing fast. I'll be interested to see if budding ALMcD will make her grow quicker. One of my problems with her is I can only get her as a tiny band and she doesn't put on much growth the first season and so consequently doesn't winter well the first year. Maybe budded she would get big enough soon enough to make it through winter.

Malcolm, I'm glad to know I'm not a crazy person after all. I do all my rootings outside in FULL sun and I don't even have a mister. We do have really high humidities here on the lake though. My cuttings go into full sun right from the start and since I've been doing that I've rarely lost one. Before that, when I started them in shade, more than half would rot before they rooted. This year I got 10 out of 10 to root in just a few weeks!


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That makes sense, Sharon. You have high humidity and due to your more northern climate, the intensity of your sun isn't quite as extreme as it is here around Los Angeles or in Florida where Malcolm is. With your high, continuous humidity and reduced sun and heat (in comparison), the cuttings should rot if not out where the sun can push them and prevent molds from gaining the upper hand. Try that here and they fry in a day... no humidity (in comparison).

Now, under mist, where humidity is nearly 100% much of the time, that increased sun and heat are made very good use of. Try the mist under shadier situations, and the results are often much like yours when you tried rooting in the shade. They rot. Kim


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  • Posted by luxrosa s.f. bay area, ca (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 11, 14 at 19:32

Fascinating!

I had no idea that the growth of a budded rose could accelerate so quickly. Thank you for posting your photos, I greatly enjoyed seeing them and reading of your budding success.

Lux.


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Here's a photo of Pink Favorite pushing buds. That longest one is ~ 18" now, the upper bud (to the left) is ~ 7" & it's pushing an auxiliary bud. These were budded on 6/26 onto a young PF plant no more that a couple of years old.

I understand now that budding on a HT is iffy, but look at that growth!


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Here's PF pushing an auxiliary bud from Mme. Del La Roche-Lambert. I just stuck that bud on last fall, just messing around--didn't even check it.

Noticed it pushing this summer & in the past several weeks it's pushed the side bud, too--& it's getting huge.


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  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 11, 14 at 21:36

Hi Kim,
Just to side track for a minute. With your 'Burrito' method, you say that it is placed in a draw, what temps are we talking mate.
Regards David.
in australia


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Some CAN, Lux, but not all are going to. Some will insist upon sitting there, appearing dormant until the next spring/summer, as if they have to mature before sprouting. That's one reason I prefer using buds which have just begun to swell, indicating they are ready to push growth, but haven't actually started pushing yet. Three to four weeks after budding, presuming the buds remain green (indicating they've taken), the tops of the stocks can be cut off, wounds sealed and new growth should start from the partially swollen buds pretty quickly. Kim


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Hi David, in my experience, here, the optimum temps for holding the wraps for the two week callusing period is between about 60 and 68F (15.6 - 20C). Kim


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  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Mon, Aug 11, 14 at 21:48

Thank you as always, as it is our Winter ours will have to come inside. Do you do house calls.


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You're welcome, David, it's always a pleasure to "see" you here and on the RHA. I'm not surprised they'll have to be held inside. I've found the dresser in the garage a good place for them here, but I've also held the longer ones both in an unheated work room as well as on the bed in the guest bedroom as we keep the house at 68 or a bit lower during winter. House calls? Sure! When should I expect the first class, round trip tickets? Kim


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I've picked up some wonderful information from this thread, thank you all!

I am particularly happy Malcom mentioned keeping a clean mother plant of the root stock. I recently received some plants of Pink Clouds from Burling and I will absolutely keep one to only produce more under stock.

I've been practicing budding with suckers of Dr. Huey I've potted. Should I assume these suckers are virused and only worth using as practice plants for gaining experience? The roses I've taken the Dr. Huey suckers from are Weeks roses released within the last three to four years if that matters.

Jay


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Jay, The fact that they are Dr. Huey and/or that they are recently from Weeks does NOT indicate that they are infected, but they could be. Do you ever see symptoms on any of your roses? Dr. Huey itself should show symptoms in the spring, on new-flush leaves.


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I haven't noticed mosaic or any other viral symptoms on the grafted roses or suckers from their rootstock. I have no idea whether the larger scale producers have VID stock they use, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't. I'm not yet budding any cultivars to the Dr. Huey that I want a grafted plant of, but I have plenty of Dr. Huey suckers in band containers that won't have much other use once I've got the hang of budding.

Edit: I should have added that my question stemmed from the idea that many varieties have become diseased over the years from poor precaution while budding in large scale fields. I wondered if perhaps newer varieties would be less likely to have viral issues than roses like 'Peace', 'Mr. Lincoln', and other older varieties. Of course, this question is moot if companies like Weeks and Star Roses aren't using clean rootstocks for the new varieties that aren't being sold own root.

Jay

This post was edited by ArbutusOmnedo on Tue, Aug 12, 14 at 19:55


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RE: Budding update..Status report

Here are a few results as of August 17. I was asked to find the 1859 Noisette, Cinderella, for a friend who lost hers to gophers. I knew of only one person who still had it and hers was suffering badly due to the drought in her area. I obtained a very small, very thin cutting from her two years ago, succeeded in budding a plant for my friend, then budded five buds from that plant before passing it on to her. All five buds were removed from her plant without cutting any stems off it, so all the wood available with all the new growth tips it had, went with the plant. Only five leaves with the five associated buds were removed from the plant. That was July 8. There are five buds in this whip. This is what it's done in one month and nine days.
DSCN9968
DSCN9967

Not all are going to push at the same rate. The stage of the bud's development and "quality" of how it's inserted under the bark are just two potentially determining issues, but some will push quickly and give you this kind of results.

Moser Striped Rose, thought to be Rainbow, budded on 6/14. Choice of stock doesn't seem to make huge differences as all four I used are pushing similar growth. Plus, as with Cinderella, all buds were removed from the mother plant without cutting any stems from the plant.
.
DSCN9974
And, just to show others aren't quite as far along, same buds, same stock, same date.
DSCN9975
Golden Angel X R. Californica nana with multiple buds, all inserted on 6/14.
DSCN9961
DSCN9960
With not all pushing similarly yet, but they are alive and will eventually push growth, yielding further budding/rooting material.
DSCN9962
DSCN9963
DSCN9964
DSCN9965
Tournament of Roses X Crested Jewel, a crested seedling created by a friend up north. Two previous attempts at rooting it failed, primarily because our climates are never in synch. But, bud wood inserted on 6/4, just a few days over two months ago, have produced this. Again, not all of them are to this stage, some aren't even pushing yet, but some are.
.
DSCN9953
DSCN9952
DSCN9959
By budding several different stocks, both varieties as well as multiple plants, and inserting multiple buds on longer stocks, I was able to make use of all the material available. Eventually, there will be numerous plants of each to do more propagation and breeding with. Instead of potentially wasting the cuttings a third time, budding them resulted in establishing the variety in my garden. Now, I can leisurely play with it, rooting or budding more plants of it how and when it's right for my climate and conditions. Even if I choose to grow it own root, now it's possible for me to make that decision when I'm ready rather than being at the mercy of when someone else's time and climate permit the material to be made available. Kim


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Clapclapclapclap!
Congratulations! Another oldie rescued from extinction!

Gosh, if those pics don't get everyone whipping out their razor knives & ordering Parafilm & clean rootstock, nothin' will.

But, no kidding--I've played at budding several times--never studied it--because I didn't HAVE to.

Now, with nursery after nursery closing, horrible drought with no end in sight in the premier rose collection state of CA, I got SERIOUS. I want to keep my special old roses, help save others & work on improving skills & using clean stock. These beautifully illustrated posts & detailed instructions are presented free. The supplies aren't expensive, the time involved for the amateur rose grower isn't much.

Come on--start budding a few roses until you get down the simple skill that will help preserve them. YOUR gardens are the reservoirs now, the ark to preserve these grand old plants. I've done a lot of cuttings & when they take--great.
But they don't always take, they're often slow maturing, & they require a lot of material.

A single bud mated successfully to clean stock is going to make a full plant, with abundant material to harvest, in a fraction of the time. I'm a total amateur--never actually even seen it done, but I'm getting some takes in even these first few tries--so it's not rocket science.
*climbs off soap box*


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I visited Kim on July 22nd and took home a variety of root stocks to root and grow. Yesterday I checked the little band pots on my patio for the first time in several days, in less than 26 days I have 2" long little white roots poking out of the bottom of the band pots (who knows what the inside of the pot looks like) Next time I plan on having root stock ready for those pesky Teas


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Kippy, at under 4 weeks, that's wonderful!

This danged hot weather may be miserable, but it's sure good for rooting & budding. I'll be whining about what I should have done now, once it cools off.


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The heat and continuous moisture are the real keys, both to rooting as well as budding. I trickle water into the pots which appear to be drying faster so they always have moisture and I swear I can see many of them grow! They are visibly larger one day to the next. That is going to slow and eventually stop as the heat extremes slow down and nights begin getting really cool. Kim


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Kim I really think it is that hot slab under the box that is getting them going. I cover the top of the box and they only get reflected light from one side or they would cook

I forgot to include what was Pink Clouds


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I'm sure you're right, Kippy. Bottom heat is bottom heat, whether it's aging horse manure in the bottom of a winter cold frame, a heating cable, a concrete slab or a bed of gravel. As long as it isn't too severely hot and the plant set upon it remain appropriately watered, they should push like crazy with heat. Many of my budding projects rest on a brick surfaced retaining wall where some heat is absorbed and radiated by the material, but most of it comes from the sun shining on the soil and pots for the brief period it shines directly on the area. Out back, where there is little to protect from the extremes, it's a different story. More water is necessary and the plants express their displeasure. In your climate, it's a benefit. In mine, it's another story entirely! Kim


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roseseek =Great thread! and thank you all for sharing updates.

malcolm_manners or others = What potting soil would work the best for rooting Fortuniana? I have tried the sand/perlite method and did not fair well.
Is there something I can use instead that I can grab quick from a Lowes or HomeD,like Lamberts or Miracle Grow seed starter?

This post was edited by maria1349 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 3:00


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Thank you Maria, I'm glad you're having as much fun with it as I am! You're in zone 9? Is that a wet zone 9 or a dry one? Which soil you should use depends more on your climate than which rose you're considering. If you have a lot of rain, you'd want one which holds less moisture and drains well. I have NO rain. For me, Miracle Gro Moisture Control Potting Soil is the ONLY way to keep anything potted alive between waterings. It gets hot, intensely sunny, windy and quite arid here and pots dry out daily. The Moisture Control soil really helps by holding more water and still draining well, but, if you're damp and rainy, it may stay too wet, so knowing where you are is certainly going to help get you good suggestions. Thanks! Kim


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roseseek=I reside in sunny Florida .You are right because I also used Moisture Control Potting Soil and it was total failure for us here in FL.We can see you are in sync with your climate and conditions,great job! I have read with my husband an article by someone = How I Propagate Roses"
By Harold Baker.I read he uses a brand named Fafard 2 but would like to have something similar or equal from Lowes or HomeD.Have not found a source for this brand locally.Gosh,I love roses but its never easy I guess.

This post was edited by maria1349 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 5:19


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We also use Fafard #2, which is Canadian peat and perlite, with a bit of vermiculite. I'd guess it's around 50% peat. You might try Miracle Grow's cactus formula -- more perlite and therefore better drainage.


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Thank you, Malcolm, I was actually thinking cactus mix, but wanted to wait to hear what those living with the conditions recommended. Kim


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Thanks,will try the cactus mix if we ever get there. Patio is getting full thanks to countless of happy neighbors sharing roses with us! Thats the best part about loving roses and sharing them.I can't wait to share some of my pictures with y'all


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Here's Typhoo Tea budded on Fortuniana 8-06


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Amazing, aren't they?! Here is the Primula you mentioned previously. The stock is VI IXL and I budded the five buds from your bud wood on 6/25. All five have taken, two have taken off! It is the first Primula I have ever detected any foliage scent from. Delicious! Thank you! Kim


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You are so very welcome! That's great--I hadn't even thought about budding the dang thing. When I first looked at the canes I didn't think it had any buds. But when I plucked off those leaves--there they were.

On that plant (from Pickerings *sob*) the scent is so variable. I often can't smell it, even by rubbing the leaves. But I walked past the thing on a humid morning & it was so evident it stopped me in my tracks--hard to describe, just so very pleasant, kind of woodsy/piney/sandlewood like.


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Foliage not being fragrant all the time shouldn't be any more surprising than flowers losing their scents due to age, weather, time of day, etc. They're both dependent upon the same chemical actions and evaporation. Perhaps I had never perceived the Primula scent before due to the heat and aridity of where I grew it? I never cut it for indoor smelling, though Elgantine and many others with scented foliage expressed their scents through the new growth tips, sepals and peduncles. I never got that from Primula, but in a warm, "close" set of conditions out front, I could smell the foliage of this one. I'd bet Eglantine would be over powering out there in the same conditions. Kim


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I got that with "Spice". The plant itself had a very pleasant fragrance, under the right conditions--usually a humid morning would let it express--a woodsy pleasant scent, not the floral/pepper scent of most Chinas--something different, very nice.

Here, & in my other zone, Eglantine's leaves & canes are so heavily resinous it sticks to your fingers--love the scent.


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