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Anyone growing native species roses?

Posted by vmr423 z8b SC (My Page) on
Fri, Aug 15, 14 at 20:57

I'm interested in growing a rose native to my area, and would like to hear from any of you who are growing native roses.

Native roses for my area include R. carolina, R. palustris, R. setigera and/or R. virginiana, so I'm especially interested in any of those roses, even if you're growing them outside of their native ranges.

Many thanks,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

We grow R. palustris, which is native here. We also grow R. setigera in the greenhouses, for DNA research. Palustris is very easy for us, and interestingly, this year, has been continuous flowering since April. I was not aware that it would do that.


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Not plain species, but species hybrids...you might consider Basye's Legacy which contains Carolina alba and Basye's Blueberry which contains a triple dose of Carolina alba and one dose of Virginiana alba. Blueberry is the more continual bloomer. Both are completely without any prickles, very healthy and deciduous. Both are also very arctic hardy. Kim


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That's interesting about R. palustris blooming like that- I wouldn't have expected such a long bloom season either. Any thoughts on why this year is different?

I've read that some of our native roses do quite well in part shade, but I'm not sure which ones don't. The area I have in mind is in the back of the yard in bright shade.

Thanks for your response,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Thanks, Kim- it looks like 'Basye's Legacy' is pretty scarce, but its parent, "Commander Gillette' might be easier to obtain, and is somewhat closer to the species. I like that word "thornless" also.

Part of my interest in growing a species rose is for wildlife value, but I'm also interested in using rose hips for making tea or jam if I can get a decent supply.

I'd guess there are species crosses that will do the job just as well- or better- than the species, but I also like the idea of growing at least one native rose simply because it is a native. Since we also have an invasive Cherokee Rose in the yard where I can't get to it, this is may be my notion of compensation, if that makes sense...

If it doesn't make sense, let's just blame the late hour; I'm getting a little sleepy.

Thanks,
Virginia


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You're welcome Virginia. It won't matter whether you go after Commander Gillette or Basye's Legacy. What is out there for sale is the same rose under both names. Dr. Basye, unfortunately, suffered from dementia in his later years. He handed "Commander Gillette" to David Neumeyer who used to post here on GW, when David visited Dr. Basye and his garden. I met David through here and he sent cuttings of the Commander Gillette he received from Dr. Basye as Commander Gillette to Sequoia Nursery at my suggestion. David was moving and feared losing the rose. Sequoia received the rose from David and propagated it.

Someone had supplied Sequoia with a rose they called, "Basye's Thornless". They forgot who gave them the rose, but they had it. I saw it and am very familiar with it.

Dr. Basye sent The Huntington Library two roses, The Probable Amphidiploid and what he, personally identified as 77-361. The copy of the Accession card from The Huntington is posted in the photos section on Help Me Find on Legacy's page. I knew of the roses due to Dr. Basye's articles about them in the ARS annuals. I was a volunteer there at the time and propagated them both for sales. I obtained the rose from the Huntington and supplied it to Sequoia and Ashdown. It was common for anyone growing a rose identical to Commander Gillette as "Basye's Thornless". Paul Zimmerman and I, to differentiate the Huntington rose from the other "Basye's Thornless" roses out there, decided to name it Basye's Legacy.

I have grown David Neumeyer's "Commander Gillette". I have grown the rose given to Sequoia as "Basye's Thornless" and I have the original piece of the Huntington Plant I have grown for nearly thirty years. They are ALL identical. Which they are, only DNA tests will determine, but whether you go for Commander Gillette, Basye's Thornless or Basye's Legacy, you will receive the same rose. Whatever mix-up that occurred, Dr Basye is to blame. He identified the same rose as both names, once to David and once in writing to The Huntington. Kim


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One thing to consider, if you plan to make tea or jam, is that the native species may not give you the quality you want. R. palustris hips are tiny and hard as wood. I can't imagine eating them. On the other hand, some of the rugosas and their hybrids make much larger, softer, sweeter hips. Not native, of course, but in the South, probably not invasive (as they can be farther north).

As for shade, our R. palustris is in full, all-day sun, but the original wild plant from which I collected the cutting was in rather deep shade in a baldcypress swamp, standing in several inches of water on the day of collection, yet in good bloom. So that one, at least, is quite shade tolerant. But the sun-grown plant is a far better horticultural specimen.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I grow Rosa pomifera and got nice hips from it this year. I also grow rosa carolina, but didn't get flowers or hips this year. Feel free to look at my page, the majority of mine are young and kinda new :)


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Everything native to the northeastern US is shade tolerant. It has to be.

As for hips, wildlife isn't real excited by any of them. Birds prefer multiflora because those are smaller, and squirrels love spinossisima hips.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, thanks for letting me know about the mix-up. At HMF, 'Commander Gillette' is equated with 'Basye's Thornless', but 'Basye's Legacy' is given as the offspring of... itself, I guess.

At any rate, 'Commander Gillette' is the name under which this plant seems to be more widely available. I know you've used it (or its alter ego) in breeding so it must be a good garden plant. And if it's so fertile, I'm guessing the hips are pretty seedy.

Lots of stuff to ponder...

Thanks again,
Virginia


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If you're planning to make jam/ preserves see if this link and this one are helpful...


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It's another of those Irene Watts/Pink Gruss an Aachen, Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona situations. Only DNA testing will be able to determine what it is, but they are all the same plant. Squirrels and rats here eat EVERY hip they can get to. They like them well enough to use them as bait in traps. No kidding. Kim


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I guess I need to forget about using the hips myself if I go with R palustris, but I do like the looks of it- and R. palustris plena... And since it does grow in swamps, I kinda figured it wouldn't mind some shade.

It does seem to bloom all summer in the Carolinas. I see that HMF calls in once-blooming in spring or summer, and it may be when outside its range- I don't know. However, I'm looking at the 'Name That Plant' web site with photos of blooms from at least May through October. The hips shown are pretty even if they aren't great for human consumption.

Thanks again,
Virgiinia

Here is a link that might be useful: Name That Plant info for R. palustris


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Just going by the Latin name, I would guess that R. pomifera is one of the best roses for fruit? Alana, have you tried using the hips, or are you just admiring the flowers & hips?

Is your R. carolina strongly fragrant when it does bloom? HMF says it is strongly fragrant while R. palustris has moderate, sweet fragrance. I would like to do a comparison some day, but I would imagine that there's a fair amount of variability with roses grown from seed?

Speaking of fragrance, how are you doing with 'Kazanlik'? I saw that it was on sale at Heirloom, and was tempted, but our conditions here are certainly not desert-like, and supposedly Damasks prefer hot and dry environs? Hot isn't a problem here, but dry can be...

Thanks,
Virginia


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Thanks for the info on wildlife, mad gallica. I am not especially interested in feeding the squirrels- they get plenty of acorns, all of our pecans and any seeds I plant without squirrel protection, so phooey to them. I was thinking of using the hips myself, but apparently natives aren't the best choice for tea, jam, etc.

I did wonder about birds, but my real wildlife concern is pollinators such as native bees and butterflies. Hummers come through in the spring on their way north, but they don't linger long. I don't really know if native species are a 'better' pollen source than any other rose that shows its stamens, but I like native plants and I like the look of species roses, so it just seemed like something I'd like to try.

Thanks again,
Virginia


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I used to grow r. Virginiana. It was bullet-proof for blackspot and very vigorous, spreading by suckers far and wide.... It was too vigorous for the space I had in my garden and it was a big job to get rid of it. But a healthy and pretty rose if you have the room. I recall it was fragrant.


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Thanks, true blue for those links. How interesting to see a recommendation for R. palustris hips right off the bat. Perhaps the hips do better in some places than in others...

Will have to delve in more deeply, but I appreciate your finding those.

Thanks again,
Virginia


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Most welcome.

I just wanted to point out that Kazanlik is the rose grown in Bulgaria for the attar. And as far as I know there is nothing desert like about their climate :-)

I grow R. glauca, for the blue grey foliage. It's full of hips now and the resident squirrel is up it every morning, munching away.

I haven't tasted it myself though.....


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Tessiess 9b, SoCal Inland, 12 (My Page) on
    Sat, Aug 16, 14 at 18:44

I grow lots of species, not all of them native to my area, and depending on how they like local conditions (mediterranean climate, low annual rainfall), they may or may not do well. R. setigera is one I grow, but it is fairly young. Seems very vigorous here, and both shade and drought tolerant.

Would love to discuss the species more, but I'm about to go to a picnic put on by my dog obedience club.;)

Here's a link below to the species roses I grow that are listed on HMF (there is one page prior that has a couple more).

I have tasted numerous of my roses' hips, and the best tasting so far are on R. californica 'First Dawn' which unfortunately doesn't have a listing on HMF yet. The hips are chewy, about the consistency of a dried apricot and surprisingly similar in flavor except much milder. Moderate to small (but not tiny) in size. RcFD is a favorite of my rose hip connoisseur dog. Others she likes are The Gift (tiny hips), Cassie (tiny hips), William's Double Yellow (moderate sized hips), R. spinosissima (small hips).

Varmints favs are R. xanthina and R. primula (I have some in the fridge which I can sample--in prior years there were NONE the wildlife didn't eat). Worst tasting by far are those on R. arnoldiana 'Khirgisia'--these taste like cardboard sprinkled with rocks (seeds are HUGE and diamond hard). R. foetida 'Persiana' generally has hips filled with fuzz, no fruit or seeds (orginating from Weeks Roses) but the other plant I have, from High Country Roses sets hips with actual seeds in them, but I haven't tasted yet. I recently tried an unripe hip on R. canina 'Laxa' but it didn't have much flavor. I'll have to try again with ripe hips. I'm especially interested in this one because of the high vitamin c content in the hips, which I believe are still used to make medicinals like cough syrup.

I haven't sampled any of the hips that are covered in bristles. Maybe there is something tasty inside, but I don't want to do the surgery needed to get to it!

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Tessie's species roses


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I'd pass on the bristly hips, Melissa. Roxburghii pulp doesn't taste good (I tested it while checking for seeds). You absolutely want to keep your distance from Stellata hips! They smell like Valerian root...old, sweaty sneakers and socks. There is some juicy pulp in them, along with a ton of itchy, fiberglass-like fibers. Not species, but the best tasting hips I've sampled yet are from Sharon's Delight, a Moore mini-Tea cross. Once ripe, they taste like some sort of fruit (which they are). The enormous hips formed by Cl Winifred Coulter (MUCH larger and fleshier than those from the bush form) have an astringent yet sweetish taste and MUCH pulp. I've not discerned much flavor from Hugonis nor my 1-72-1Hugonis (larger, pulpier hips) hips. They're just sort of green and wet, even though they resemble ripe cranberries. This is what you get from the Basye rose we discussed above, Virginia. Blueberry gives similar hips. Some pulp, but MANY tiny seeds and not much flavor. Kim


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true blue, that's a good point about Bulgaria not having a desert climate. I'm thinking the only way to know if a rose will do well here is to try and grow it. I can't afford that sort of open-ended experiments just now, but maybe some day I'll get adventurous. Attar of roses... it's tempting.

I really like R. glauca's foliage. I'm jealous, though, if you only have one resident squirrel. Our resident squirrels are busy chewing off all the unripe pecans from our tree these days. I don't know what they have against ripe pecans, but they aren't allowed to stay on long enough to ripen. It would make sense if they actually ate the unripe nuts instead of dropping them all over the ground.

Shaking my head,
Virginia


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Kim, I haven't actually seen any rats here, but I suppose the snakes and owls must be eating something, and it doesn't seem to be the blankety-blank squirrels...

I'm curious about the 'Francis D'/'Barcelona' confusion, since I've always supposed that there's a 'Francis D' somewhere in the world that isn't 'Barcelona', though I gather it is not here in the U.S. I guess my supposition was that in Europe- or somewhere- 'FD' & 'Barcelona' are distinguishably different- is that incorrect?

It's okay if I hijack my own thread, isn't it?

Always curious,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

It's your thread, Virginia. I guess, as long as the plant was initially sufficiently vigorous and planted in a benign climate, it's possible for it to exist. No one has come forth with anything which could be it, yet, so who knows? There are many rose bushes growing around the world for which no real identities are known. It kind of frustrates me to see some of the photos posted on Face Book and elsewhere of some pretty glorious looking roses, only to be told they are "red" or some such worthless identity. I see it particularly in Asian countries where they are grown but no names are provided. Yes, it's possible Francis continues to exist somewhere, but who knows where? Kim


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lori elf, thanks for the info on R. virginiana. Sounds like a great choice if I need something healthy and thuggish! I'm not sure if I have enough room for her to spread and spread, but I also wonder if she'd be quite as aggressive here as in your neck of the woods. I'm either in the southernmost area of her native range or a bit south of it, according to the USDA plants map.

I'm especially curious about R. virginiana plena and how she came to be 'Rose d'Amour'. I like those photos of her at HMF very much indeed.

Thanks again,
Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: R virginiana plena at HMF


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Hi Kim- I think you cleared up my misunderstanding about 'FD'. I kinda thought that the 'Farancis Dubreuil' = 'Barcelona' equation was pretty much a U.S. situation, but I understand now that if 'FD' still exists anywhere at all, he isn't recognized as such. Or perhaps he is correctly labeled as 'FD' and considered to actually be 'Barcelona'...

I know what you mean about the lovely photos online with no identifying info. I console myself with the thought that a lot of those beauties have been heavily 'shopped anyway...

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

No ma'am. Both Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona and Irene Watts/Pink Gruss an Aachen were Peter Beales' attributions, sent out by his nursery as exports to Mike Lowe and Bob Edberg. Both funneled through me to The Huntington where they certainly seemed the same as the US commercially produced, quite old plants of the two more modern varieties. I was ALL over those grounds in those years, propagating every rose that grew there, so when these wonderful, rare, imported lovelies arrived, grew and flowered, you can imagine my surprise when they seemed INCREDIBLY famililar! So, no ma'am, the confusion wasn't initially American, but the resolution definitely was, even though the Irene clarification was aided greatly by the Australian, David Ruston, who was presenting one of his amazing still life recreations at our Rose Festival that year. When shown matching material from both Irene and Aachen, he proclaimed them identical, as did every other "expert" in attendance.

I can't really fault Mr. Beales for the mistakes. It is tremendously easy to misidentify something you've never seen before from some of the old illustrations and terrible descriptions. He did a world of good keeping older types around for a very long time, distributing them around the world, and was a very lovely gentleman in person. I was simply more fortunate that I had access to living specimen of what he had been presented with for identification as well as access to "experts" who could and would state they were identical. Kim


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Melissa, I hope you enjoyed the picnic with the well-behaved doggies.

Your collection of species roses is pretty impressive- quite a few I hadn't heard of- incuding your rocky-hipped R. arnoldia. I think I'll avoid that one for any future culinary experiments. Ditto for the hips that need surgical intervention.

Our dog is very fond of dried apricots as a treat, so he'd probably agree with your dog's estimation of RcFD. It sounds pretty tasty to me also. I looked up 'First Dawn' online- it's lovely.

I was interested to see in an earlier thread that true blue posted a link for, that R. palustris is supposed to have more vit C than most hips. Not sure who has been testing the hips for vitamin content, but I'm glad that someone is finally taking the guesswork out of... sorry, where was I?

I'm not sure about 'Laxa', but I understand that R canina is what the Europeans make their rose hip tea with. I guess your dog didn't study Latin at that obedience school, or she'd probably favor R. canina?

Thanks for all the good info on rose hip delights,
Virginia


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It was probably in Thomas I first read, then read again in Harkness, they discovered around WWII that the Caninae hips had 25X more Vitamin C than oranges and up to 60X more than lemons. That was an enormous breakthrough at the time to combat the scurvy being suffered due to the lack of imported produce. Kim


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Kim, those golden hips are beautiful! They look like they should be the ones that taste like apricots. Or cherry tomatoes. Beautiful hips, charming flower, thornless and healthy? Okay, I think you got me this time- where do I sign up?

Although, I think I like the flower of 'Blueberry' better. And I could grow it near our blueberry bushes if it's nearly thornless (too close to a sidewalk otherwise).

Winifred Coulter and her climbing sport are good-looking roses I hadn't heard of before. Tempting, but I just ordered a climber, and need to figure out what to do with it.

I have a suspicion that the real 'Francis D' is hiding out somewhere in Oz under an assumed name ('Souv. de Therese Levet', maybe). Check out that HMF photo of the Ruston's 'SdTL' and tell me that it was ever 'poppy red'... Although I guess poppies come in all kinds of colors now.

Just let me know, and I'll put my awesome psychic powers to work to discover where the real 'Irène Watts' might be...

Sorry, I've stayed up too late again, and am getting silly.

Thanks for the lovely photo of those hips,
Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Souv. de Therese Levet' photo at HMF


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Virginia, I would not suggest growing a rose next to blueberry plants -- they prefer different soils (blueberries very acid; roses closer to neutral), and it may be hard to find a happy compromise there.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Virginia,

Kazanlik grows fine and flowers well for me, it does seem to like filtered light better than direct.

As I stated Rosa Carolina didn't bloom this year maybe next year she will..I did receive her this year as a band.

I did try Rosa Pomifera's hips and to me they tasted like green apple..my husband said they tasted like some kind of weed he used to chew on, but I don't know about that..I'll have to ask him the name of it,lol.

I have R. Glauca as well and here she only likes morning sun, the afternoon sun burns her and killed my first one.

Best of luck choosing and if you get the swamp rose..let me know how she does for you..I was thinking of trying it as well.

Best of luck..and for your enjoyment you did ask for a pic of SDDJ :)

edit..my husband said it was sour weed..but green apples have a sour taste to them..I still say green apple :)

This post was edited by Alana7bSC on Sun, Aug 17, 14 at 9:31


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Those are the hips you should expect from any rose obtained as Commander Gillette, Basye's Legacy or Basye's Thornless, Virginia. As I wrote, they are all the same rose, no matter what the "true identity" turns out to be. I honestly believe this is a mystery best solved by Malcolm's students' efforts through DNA testing. At least that would clear it up, once and for all. Malcolm is correct, though, blueberries want a highly acidic soil and few roses are going to be happy in that situation. Legacy is more like a climber, which can be kept whacked to make it bushier, but if it's a bush you're originally wanting, grow Basye's Blueberry. It was named that because the autumn foliage and the colorful canes after the foliage has fallen reminded Dr. Basyes of blueberry bushes. It is prickle-free, rudely healthy with large, well scented flowers. The only "trick" to keeping it flowering is to keep it dead headed. There is enough species in it to make it wonderfully fertile, so it sets "fruit" very willingly. The colored, bare canes with coloring fruit are beautiful in arrangements, like Legacy's are. One Thanksgiving, I went to my Newhall garden to find someone had cut and taken the top third of the bush, presumably for that reason. They ARE beautiful!

If you're going to press your psychic powers into force, please discover where in THIS country some of these old lovlies are grown! Though it's wonderful to discover some still exist, it would be so much more fun if they were somewhere we in the US could obtain them.

There actually was at least one attempt to raise roses in the US for attar of roses. Francesco Franceschi-Fenzi, who was responsible for introducing many hundreds of tropical and semi tropical plants into Southern California, imported the necessary varieties to plant on his land in Santa Barbara where they grew quite well. The venture failed due to the lack of the required humidity to permit the oils and alcohols to remain in the blooms until harvested. The plants made them, but the climate permitted them to all evaporate before the blooms could be harvested and processed. Perhaps a more humid, Southern climate might permit it? Now all you need is bottomless funding and a crew of strong backed, weak minded teenagers to accomplish the grunt work for you! Good luck! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Francesco Franceschi-Fenzi


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Very interesting reading.

I need to go and look closer at what a new $$ development put in next to the street. My guess is they wanted some type of low growing "native" rose with thorns to keep passerbys passing on by.

It is sad that the roses Franceschi worked with are gone from the estate, guessing the crews hired to clean up the place due to fire hazards did not realize the vines growing in the trees were important when they cleared and cleaned out the trees. I hope we get some good rains and something manages to return. The city did get all up in arms about trimming on one of his trees in a parking lot. I think they did not know about the rose connection.

And I am very glad that our squirrel (red tailed tree squirrel) finds other yards far more interesting than ours. He visits every now and then hoping down the fence top rail and drives moms tenant nuts when he runs the wires to the roof. But other than some damaged persimmons, he seems to leave us alone. Although, we have had a horrible time trying to get kale to grow big enough get past the hungry varmints. maybe a couple of well placed pots of kale will lower the drive to eat the hips?


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That's never been my experience, Kippy. The more food you make available, the more of his "cousins" move in and the more babies they have until the food supply limits them. As long as there is something to eat, "critters" move in to the area and continue replicating themselves. Limit the food, limit the access to the food and you limit the critters. Kim


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Dr Manners, thanks for saving me from myself- I'll keep the roses away from the blueberries. Probably, I should add a few more actual blueberries since the others seem reasonably happy there.

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Alana, your 'Docteur' is a sight for sore eyes. Eventually, I'll have to try growing him here, even though (or maybe a little bit because?) I was warned against it by a rose expert.

I heard from Linda Loe at Long Ago Roses that she sells Gallicas to a customer in Florida. Florida! The mind boggles while the pulse quickens...

The R. pomifera hips sound delightful, whether it's green apple, Sourweed (yeah, I used to chew on that also), or somewhere in between. The stuff I call Sourweed is Rumex acetosella or Sheep's Sorrel.

I will definitely let you know if I get the Swamp Rose. I can get seeds for it, but I'm thinking I might rather have R. palustris plena instead of R. palustris, even though it would be more expensive to buy a plant...

Thanks for the info and the photo,
Virginia


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Yes ma'am, it's more expensive to buy a plant as opposed to seeds, but how many years are you willing to wait for flowers? I only go species seeds when I can't obtain the plant. No, I don't have a fat wallet, and I am "CHEAP" when it comes to gardening, but some things just aren't worth the wait, particularly when you can't really be sure what you're getting is going to actually be what you want, especially when you have to wait a few YEARS to see flowers! Kim


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Kim, I'm only just starting to appreciate your formidable enabling powers.

After reading your description of 'Blueberry', I wondered how I've managed fool myself into thinking I was reasonably content with my life, even though I do not yet grow 'Basye's Blueberry'. And seeds? What was I thinkning? Of course, I need a plant!

Actually, I had already e-mailed Linda Loe about whether she has R. palustris plena; HMF says she stocks it, but they also said a couple of other nurseries stock it, and it's not mentioned on their web sites. I guess now I'll have to ask her about 'BB' also.

My psychic antennae must need readjusting- sorry. What's your best guess about when the mix-up first occurred? Also- do you think the original 'FD' really was a Tea? Those early illustrations at HMF look sort of HT-like to my not-very-expert eye.

Il Signor FF-F sounds like quite a character. I couldn't get the link at HMF to work, but I will keep my eye out for further reading.

I have plenty of access to heat and humidity, but am sadly lacking those bottomless funds and strong-but-dim teens. Still, attar of roses... How wonderful that steam distillation process sounds...? Come to think of it, rose absolue sounds just as romantic as attar of roses, and considerably less- ahem!- steamy.

Thanks,
Virginia


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Kippy -- At least, a handful of years ago, there were roses growing up through the trees at Franchesci Park. Gigantea, or some Gigantea X. We got cuttings, but they would not root for any of us. (Not surprising.)

And on the hillside, below the house, there was at least one upright rose -- we didn't know what. But getting there was somewhat perilous.

Jeri


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Kippy, I hope y'all do get some good rain soon, and if the giganteas profit from it, so much the better. It's a shame that the historic value of those roses wasn't realized by those in charge of the grounds.

If your squirrel isn't a constant pest, I'd leave well enough alone. Like Kim, I've learned that squirrels will sample any food sources available, even when there are plenty of alternatives. And if there are more munchies, you'll just see more squirrels.

If your kale is planted out, you might see if your squirrel still notices it if you plant it in a container instead. I've had pretty good luck growing Swiss chard in a big pot, but the squirrels demolished the plants I put in the ground- and kept going back for more when the chard showed signs of recovery.

Good luck,
Virginia


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Hehe..Jimofshermanoaks christened me, "The Enabler from Hades" (cleaned up as you are a lady), many years ago, Virginia! A title I have proudly worn ever since.

I honestly think you would enjoy Blueberry. It's a lovely shrub and really doesn't have any down side, other than it might be a bit "rustic looking" for some. But, if you're growing blueberries, you're into "rustic". I grew and used it for breeding some years ago. I even raised Joyberry from it. It really is a good rose and great for landscaping.

Seeds are fun, but not when they are of something requiring years of maturity and size to begin giving you the flowers you desire. Thank you for frequenting Long Ago. Linda is a joy to work with and she really takes pride in her plants and service. You'll enjoy her.

Francis Dubreuil fell out of commerce for a long time, as did Irene Watts. Peter Beales was one of several British rose experts who identified "found roses". There were occasionally articles in "The Rose", the Royal National Rose Society newsletter, of someone discovering a rose and submitting it to Lt. Col. Ken Grapes, Mr. Beales and others for identification. As Beales was (probably still is) one of the largest nurseries in Britain, and certainly one of the best known internationally, he fielded more than his share of unidentified roses. From what I understand, both were submitted for identification and he gave them his best guesses. Of course, they were highly educated guesses, and without actually knowing the more modern itterations of them, they were pretty good guesses. But, they were in error. I'd guess those identifications were made sometime in the 1980s or early 90s. To be fair, he did peg many spot on, so it isn't as if he just threw names at things willy-nilly.

What consitutes a "Tea" and how it differs from a Hybrid Tea can be very muddled. Most are pretty much "Tea hybrids", seedlings raised from Tea crosses. A "pure Tea" would not have any Hybrid Perpetual blood in it. Hybrid Teas were created by crossing HPs with Teas. Teas crossed with roses other than HPs are Tea Hybrids. Teas contain Tea blood. Except. it's up to the creator and introducer of a rose what to classify it. Some adhere strictly to the genetic line classification, which is great if you're researching lineages, but does little for you as a gardener.

If a rose posesses a Damask scent, then it should have Old European Garden Rose genes in it as Damask scents came from that lineage. A "Tea" shouldn't have a Damask scent. That would indicate it probably contains HP genes, therefore it should be a Hybrid Tea. Few went back prior to Bourbons and HPs to create Tea Hybrids as they were the more remontant garden roses and the desire was to produce consistently flowering plants with expanded, deeper colors, greater scents and the Tea high-centered blooms.

There is enormuos overlap between the HPs, Teas and HTs. Many which genetically could be called HTs, look and behave like Teas. David Austin created a few which aren't Teas, but certainly look like they should be. Look at Dove and see if you don't agree it could pass for a Tea. When you encounter a plant of Dove growing in a garden, one of the first guesses as to what it might be is often "Tea". It has the look of a Tea. Lady Hillingdon is significantly more cold hardy than Teas should be. That cold hardiness came into the class from the HPs and Bourbons. She looks like a Tea and behaves like a Tea, but resists cold like an HT. She's of a late breeding date for a Tea, particularly as everyone was pumping out HTs. But, it's the breeder or introducer who gets to make the call. Selling Hillingdon as an HT would probably have people upset because it isn't what an HT should look like. Sell it as a Tea, and people will easily accept it and be thrilled it resists cold better than most of the rest of the class.

Many which should be HTs or Tea Hybrids, look like HPs and are called HTs. Look at Symphony, the 1935 Weigand HP. For all intents and purposes, it is an HP, but genetically it is an HT. Since half of Symphony was actually Souv. de Claudius Pernet, a Pernetiana, had it had a few more visual cues of the class, it might have been called a Pernetiana or Hybrid Foetida. Frau Karl Druschki is another excellent example. It's an HP crossed with an HT, but it "quacks like a duck", looks and performs like an HP, therefore it's an HP.

The rose sent out as Francis Dubreuil posesses many HP traits, including the color and scent associated with many seedlings of that lineage. No "Tea" should be of that color, nor posess that scent. The historic image of Francis Dubreuil and the historic description COULD have been made about a "Tea". There are Teas which look like HPs; Teas which look HT; HTs which look HP and Tea... The rose grown as that name now, doesn't fit that description, but it does fit the Barcelona description.

Fenzi is an outrageous banking family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenzi

Our gentleman was even more amazing.

http://www.montecitojournal.net/archive/13/18/995/

Isn't this stuff fun? Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: 1906 photo of Francis Dubreuil


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

To answer your last question first, Kim- yes, this IS fun!

I've enjoyed my interactions with Linda Loe via e-mail. She's very professional, incredibly nice, and she knows her roses. I hope she can get her web site up to date soon- it will make it easier for potential customers to find out what a nice selection of roses she's got.

I should be receiving 'ALMcD' and 'Clotilde Soupert' from her later this week, and I'm really looking forward to giving them a good home.

After I read your last post, I took a break so that I could go back and re-read it a couple of times before responding. There's a lot of good info there, and you answered some questions I've been trying to puzzle out, and a few I didn't know to ask...

I think I'd already figured out that breeders got to decide what to call their 'progeny', and that if the classification were at all ambiguous, the decision would likely be influenced by marketing decisions. I can certainly see how a dark red Tea might appeal to the novelty-seekers who might otherwise not be in the market for one of those old-school Tea roses.

Possibly that 'Tea' label might have eventually become a liability, and could've been a factor that led to 'FD' going out of commerce?

It does seem strange to me, though, that these 'lost' roses wouldn't have persisted in at least a few old gardens and cemeteries somewhere in the world. I like to think they're still being grown in gardens- perhaps even under their proper names, if the labels weren't lost- and their gardeners are completely oblivious to any controversy.

I wouldn't dream of pointing an accusing finger at Mr Beales for the mix-up. If the fault lies with anyone, it's with the gardeners who lost track of 'Francis Dubreuil', 'Irène Watts', etc, for a long enough period of time that such a mix-up could occur.

'Symphony' is a beautiful thing, and I certainly would have thought it was a HT just from looking at it. But then, I'm not all that clear about how to recognize a HP when I see one, either. (Here again it could get tricky if 'Symphony' is no longer in commerce despite being so lovely?)

I understand what you mean when you refer to 'Frau KD' quacking like a duck, but which traits get looked at to make the (duck) call? When I look at the 'FKD' flower photos at HMF, I think HT, but when I look at the plant habit, I think HP. But either way, it's just an impression, and I'm not educated enough to know why I'm thinking one or the other.

Maybe I'll figure this stuff out one day, despite getting a late start.

Thanks for such a clear and useful explanation of Teas v. HT's. Very nice!

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Good! I'm glad you're enjoying yourself, too! And, I'm glad you're enjoying Linda. I do, too.

How neat you're to have your very own ALmD. Clotilde can be very sweet.

Yes ma'am, as it really should be, it's the creator and introducer who call the classification shots. Mr. Bluebird, the violet toned "mini" Ralph Moore released in 1960, is a self seedling of Old Blush, making it pure China. I asked him many years ago why he would classify such an obvious China as a mini. He responded, "Kim, WHO bought China roses in 1960?" Good point. He also released Moore's Pink Perpetual and Moore's Classic Perpetual, both crosses between minis and Paul Neyron and possessing the classic HP look, only on smaller plants. He initially released them as HPs, but "someone" changed the classification on them to "shrub", which he eventually allowed to stand. There was also Sequoia Jewel, another mini X Paul Neyron cross, which is a miniature.

I doubt a classification would run a worthwhile rose which enjoyed sufficient distribution from the market. Some very good roses have disappeared mainly due to their lack of sufficiently wide distribution. More often, though, they fall from commerce due to changing fashion and even more, because they were weak, and/or unhealthy roses. Those which survived "on their own", did so primarily because they were blessed by being planted in climates which particularly suited them, in situations which fostered their survival. Some were kept from freezing out by the marble and granite markers by which they were planted. Many survived because there was ample rainfall where they grew. Many hung around because other plants and trees around them protected them from extreme sun, cold winds and hard freezes. You would be surprised how many have been found growing under the drip zone of large trees where there has been very deep, rich leaf litter fertilizing them and acting a mulch to prevent moisture loss. Plants transpire a tremendous amount of water through their foliage. That raises the humidity within their close environments greatly, benefiting other plants. Have you ever been under a tree on a hot day and felt the plant "rain" on you? Transpiring so much water through the foliage that it resulted in droplets falling from the plant? Their drip zones are where the rain and other condensation falls as it bounces from one leaf to the next. That concentrates the water around that circle at the edge of the canopy. What a perfect place for a plant to enjoy! It gets protected by the larger plant, it gets fed and mulched by its litter and it gets watered both by transpiration as well as moisture falling around its drip zone.

Others have survived by being planted next to stone foundations, chimneys, etc., which act as solar collectors, providing warmth even during cold, sunny periods. They help protect them from drying winds and can help collect droplets of moisture from fogs and dew. Perhaps it was even high ground water where they survived, or enough winter snow and spring rains to keep the soil supportive of its survival. Every time you encounter a "found rose", there are mitigating circumstances which have made it possible for the rose to survive. No "found rose" has ever been found in the middle of an extremely hot, extremely dry, extremely exposed, sunny field. Nothing grows well for any length of time in those kinds of situations except annual grasses and "weeds". They've all had SOME special condition, situation, which has made it possible for them to survive. And, as I said earlier, had they not been sufficiently suited to the climate and conditions in which they were "discovered", they wouldn't have been able to hang around until being "found".

Symphony should still be around. It isn't in my garden currently because my climate fosters heavy mildew on it. I sent it off to a friend who enjoys gardens in both coastal and mountain conditions. It went to her "weekend get away" up in the mountains where it will get greater aridity, enough winter chill and heavier rains than it would have ever experienced here. Plus, she waters a lot more than I, which will also make it much happier. I know Sequoia had it as I passed it on to them from The Huntington gardens where I propagated it and began spreading it around. With Vintage's closing, that leaves only Rosemary's Roses here in California offering it.

There is a coarseness to a Hybrid Perpetual plant that usually isn't observed in Hybrid Teas. It's foliage; wood; prickle type; growth habit; shape of bud; shape of bloom and other traits. Many Austin roses grow like HPs and Bourbons and would never be mistaken for Hybrid Teas. Study the images of unopen buds, canes, growth habits, quality of foliage, etc. on HMF for Drushki and Symphony. In this climate, they traditionally grow much like a whacked Dr. Huey, building upon themselves like semi climbing plants. It's one of those things which best requires observation and study of the class of plants to honestly develop the "eye" for identifying one. Very often, it is literally just "the impression", based upon much observation and study. I frequently write this or that "impresses me" as something. I often can't really state why, but when I see the image or the plant sitting before me, it conjures up the image of the plant it resembles and I "see" the previous plant in my "mind's eye". I think that's often what I mean when I say something "told me" who or what it was. It has happened. It just takes enough observation and exposure to a large enough cross section of roses to be able to develop it.

I'm sure you'll figure it out and develop your own educated impressions. You're putting pieces together and you obviously have a keen eye and interest. I'm certain you'll get there, whether you ever feel as if you have, or not. Oh, and did Linda indicate whether she had a Basye's Blueberry ready or not? Thank you! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

We found Rosa californica growing wild near us. It's a pink single that grows all in a jumble. After seeing Jeri and Kim demonstrate propagation methods, DH took several cuttings and he's hopeful for one of them. It was supposed to be a surprise for me but he got so excited when it started growing.... -Nancy

This post was edited by nancylee2 on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 1:30


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

How neat, Nancy, congratulations! One word of caution, though, Californica IS gorgeous and well worth growing here, but it is an aggressive colonizer. It will eat every square inch of your yard, so keep it contained or you'll live to regret it! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

After reading about them in Kim's post, I went and looked at the website for Rosemary's Roses...only to find that they too are closing soon! The website says when their nursery stock is sold out they will be out of business. Very sad!


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

How sad! Rosemary is a lovely lady. But, what can we expect? We're all getting to be "high mileage" and there aren't any young people coming along to run nurseries. Eventually, we'll all "die out". Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, I'm looking forward to growing 'Annie Laurie', and though I'm expecting her to be slow-growing at first, I also understand that she's likely to get pretty big once she takes off. I'd like your opinion about what kind of support- if any- she will eventually need. Do you think she'd be happy growing up into a tree?

'Clotilde' sounds like she's going to be a good choice- shade-tolerant, floriferous, healthy and fragrant. I understand that she might ball in cool damp weather, but we all have our faults...

I have wondered if 'Francis D' and/or 'Irène W' might have suffered from more than unfashionability- perhaps some inherent lack of stamina has done them in- even the ones grown in nicer spots in the garden. The early descriptions of 'FD' at least sounded like a good, hardy garden rose, so I'm not convinced that he's completely disappeared.

It is pretty amazing what plants- including roses- can put up with. I'm thinking about the roses I found in pots full of weeds and pine straw in dense shade and no attention for more than a year, and I wonder how much longer those plants would have survived. There were a few there that hadn't survived, but most of them did.

I'm getting sleepy, and so will write more later, but you asked about 'Basye's Blueberry'; it isn't ready just now, but should be ready for shipping in the spring. It sounds like it's a good overall plant, so I'll be glad to get one when it's ready.

I thought I'd read about Rosemary's Roses closing soon, which is why I mentioned my concern about 'Symphony'. So many lovely roses, and fewer and fewer folks who want to grow them, can afford to buy them and know how to care for them..

Good night,
Virginia

This post was edited by vmr423 on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 7:59


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Thanks Kim and Virginia for such informative discussion. discussion. Kim your final conclusion was rather fatalistic ! I took the liberty to rephrase it, I hope you don't mind:

We're all getting to be "high mileage" but as long as there is one young person coming along to run the nurseries, we'll never "die out" .

But to return to the original question, I tasted the hips of R. glauca. Unfortunately they're tasteless. Sort of like a crunchy, moist cardboard!

Though not a species, my Alba semi-plena has some nice hips ripening slowly.

Here is a picture of R. glauca hips:


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I think the size and type of tree you need to grow ALmD into can make all the difference, Virginia. A smaller, more open, lacy type with a less massive root system will likely be easier for the rose to deal with than something like a mature birch which, though appears more open, has an incredible mass of fibrous roots, like a dense, thick, carpet backing. The greater the root mass and larger, denser the tree, the greater the water and nutrient demand on the soil in its root zone. Of course, with a benign climate with sufficient rainfall, your chances will be better than they would here where even very mature, very well established trees are suffering, even dying, due to lack of ground water with nothing replacing it.

Old descriptions are often quite difficult to believe. There was often much poetic license used. There were many who embellished the virtues of their roses greatly. The McGredy line was notorious for such embellishment and McGredy III,. father of the current Mr. McGredy, was famous for it. One author actually said his overly exhuberant, flowery embellishment wasn't dishonest. He genuinely believed every rose he introduced represented the pinnacle of rose breeding. Dollars were in fewer hands prior to the World Wars than they were in decades following, and sales had to rely upon the printed ads and articles as well as word of mouth. Any time a rose won an award, it was worth real gold as it promoted the cultivar as well as the breeding house. Word of mouth took much longer to support and kill anything than it does today. Something weaker could exist somewhere, but wouldn't you have expected it to have come in from the shadows during the resurgence of rose popularity toward the end of the last Century when there were many more people "discovering" and reintroducing such things? The Internet surely helped facilitate it with the increasing ability and ease of posting glowing, living color images. "He who shall remain nameless" was definitely lucky in finding Grey Pearl and reintroducing it into commerce because "a little old lady" who had nursed and loved it for decades was able to maintain it in a favored climate until she discovered him and passed it along to him. But, those "time capsule" gardens with their curators have largely died out over the past thirty-five plus years, especially in favored climes. The explosion of wealth prior to its severe concentration has led to those time capsules being snatched up and recreated into visions of their new owners' pleasure.

Botanical depositories of such wealth are increasingly pressured into divesting themselves of the labor and other resource intensive collections, unless they represent greater revenue generating opportunities, something roses definitely don't. Climate change is helping that loss with the increasing scarcity of water and increasing demand for it. California is likely the best possible place to find forgotten roses due to the climate and wealth it has enjoyed over the past century, but that has changed and continues changing due to all the pressures above, and more. Irene Watts and Francis Debreuil were both listed as being commercially available here in the US in the Dingee and Conard catalog of 1900. That Irene definitely would not have been Pink Gruss an Aachen. I have found no further listing of them in any of the more recent, older catalogs. Armstrong continued listing older rose types well into the 1970s with Roses of Yesterday and Today picking many up as Armstrong discontinued them, and nothing of them ever appeared in the many years worth of their catalogs I've been able to list.

The only European source for the "real" Irene was Beales. Even after the confusion was documented and he was made aware of it, he continued stating he had the "real" Irene from a different source, yet no photographs of it appeared to my knowledge to demonstrate how it differed or even establish that it did, indeed, exist. I have found no evidence in Combined Rose List that either existed in any commercial catalogs here, or abroad, prior to their "rediscovery and identification". I don't even see possible candidates for their identities listed as found roses. Surely, if they existed somewhere, anyone had access to, they would have resurfaced if they were of any garden value to modern eyes? My bet is they were likely not sufficiently healthy or vigorous to have hung around, waiting to become the next discovery. Or, after Dingee and Conard sold them, and they were a larger distributor of roses here in those years, they were felt to be of sufficiently low merit for anyone else to have bothered with. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Rosemary is a very nice lady. I have been trying to figure out if I should add a loop past her this fall if I head that direction. I should start a tread and see if picked them up, if there are plants others in the greater SoCal area want.

I also need to stop and take a few pictures of the new bed of thorns in front of the new condos. They are starting to set hips.

I bet Nancy Lee would not have as much trouble with the native rose on her place as others, it is in an incredibly wonderful place, just not the easiest to grow soil and conditions.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Nancy, I think R. californica is one of the prettier native roses in this country, so I hope y'all can keep it going.

From what I've been reading, I think most of our native species like to stretch out a little- or a lot. Hopefully, you can find a nice space for it to grow into without swallowing the yard.

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Nancy, I think you and Kippy should arrange to get together so she can share Pink Clouds with you and pass along how to chip bud. Putting madly suckering roses on a suitable root stock permits you to "tame them", making more suitable garden subjects of them. It's easy! You aren't THAT far from each other, a lot closer than Kippy and I are to each other. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I would love to share with Nancy Lee. Or if she wants to drop off a cane with buds, try and bud it for her here. Plus I have some other "big girls" who might be fun to allow to do their thing with abandon on a slope.

Do deer like the wild rose here Kim?

Nancy Lee has a wonderful garden and home, but also extremely challenging gardening conditions. But it would be interesting to see just how some of the roses handle her area. Think dry soil, damp fog, consistent afternoon ocean winds (cold), rocky soil, ocean spray, deer, cattle, squirrels, rabbits ....a beautifully wild location.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Tessiess 9b, SoCal Inland, 12 (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 13:49

I tried a ripe hip on R. canina Laxa the other day and it was really quite good. Tangy but with a lot of seeds.

R. pomifera/R. villosa is on my list to buy soon.

Forestfarm is one of my favorite sources for species roses. They have a large collection of species so it is best to keep checking throughout the year to see which ones are currently available. I keep a rose search bookmarked.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses at Forestfarm


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Tessiess 9b, SoCal Inland, 12 (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 14:31

Greenmantle Nursery in California is also an excellent source for species. They have more species than many other rose nurseries. I called yesterday to add to my 2015 order but won't know for a while all I will be getting until Marissa checks stocks on hand. She is great to deal with, but one must call for availability because Greenmantle is very old-fashioned--no website ordering and no email. Contact is by either phone or snail mail. Really wonderful plants though, big (2 gallon size, shipped almost bareroot), and organically grown to boot.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses grown by Greenmantle


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Tessiess 9b, SoCal Inland, 12 (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 14:49

I find the Calflora.org website really useful for learning about California native plants (as well as non-native invasive ones). Below is their listing of species roses. Other states may also have nifty websites such as this one.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Calflora species roses


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I can't see why deer wouldn't love Californica, Kippy. In many years, it's loaded with hips making it a favorite for just about all the wildlife. If they like garden roses, what wouldn't be to like about the species? Yes, it's drier than a garden, but it only grows were there is sufficient ground water to sustain it, like Ceanothus does. I've tried it, Bracteata and a few others here on this slope and even after a year of regular watering, they require continued support or they flat out die.

If you could see where Greenmantle is located, you'd understand why they are "old fashioned". "Boonies" and "out in the sticks" are very good descriptions. Add "way out in the mountains" in a "too fer and snakey" location and you have the picture. I visited them way back in 1984 and it was an "adventure" just getting to their canyon, not to mention down the rabbit path leading to their door! Great, lovely people and an excellent source for roses and rare, unusual, antique fruit. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim aren't most garden catalogues exaggerated, even now?

When I first started gardening I fell for them all the time: Fragrant could mean anything from scented, sweetly scented, faintly scented. Then the colors, sky blue, deep blue, which were all shades of purple and not blue and most images are photoshopped.

Even now I sometimes fall for some of them :-)

- Bob


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Of course! Like "glamour shots". Take a look at resale homes. Realtor photographs make them look amazing, but walk into them and see the huge isses the camera misses, usually deliberately. For a rose as dull and uninspiring as Dr. Huey to be heralded as "Deep, dazzling scarlet", occurred all the time. It probably appeared to be to eyes more accustomed to crimson which blued to purple a few hours after opening. "Pure sunflower yellow" was common to describe the freshly unfurled buds of many Pernetianas. No one bothered to mention how those tones would surely be missed if you blinked...

Mr. McGredy's exaggerations were quite over the top. Every seedling he released was the absolute best rose ever created. Whites were the purest, yellows the most brilliant, reds deeper and more dazzling than any other ever raised. Each new rose had the absolute finest foliage ever raised on the most vigorous plants ever created. It's really interesting reading his old advertisements and announcements to observe the almost religious experience, orgasmic heights he experienced when speaking of his latest "achievement". There are exaggerations and then there are EXAGGERATIONS! He hadn't kissed the Blarney Stone. He ATE it.

Now, imagine attempting to match a rose which has an OK flower on a "meh" plant with those kinds of descriptions. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

true-blue, "crunchy moist cardboard" is not a very appealing description of R glauca hips. Think I'll give that one a miss. I'd rather try the kind that taste a bit like apricots...

I agree that there's no point in assuming that we know where we are in the endless cycles of garden fashions... Maybe we're overdue for home farmers to realize the joys of growing heirloom ornamentals to attract pollinators to their heirloom veggies? Hard to say.

I hope there will be a turn-around soon enough for the remaining rose nurseries to survive and provide continuity to the next batch of intrepid folks willing to try selling out-of-the-mainstream roses.

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, I think I'll need to abandon the climber-in-the-tree idea since we mostly have well-established oak trees.

Of course, I would expect growers to write flattering descriptions of their roses, but what I recall reading was a gentleman who said he'd been growing 'FD' in his garden for years, and considered it one of his best choices for a Tea garden. I don't remember where I read it, but I THINK this 'review' might date from the 1930's? Could've been an Aussie gardener? I'll have to try and find it again...

Nope, I do not always trust the rose originator's description- they tend to be quite the optimists, or why would they be doing what they're doing? And if they're at all successful, they must also be salespeople who can 'pitch the woo'. I'll cut Mr McGredy some slack since he did come out with some very nice roses, and I figure it's up to buyers to have their Blarney meters activated, no?

I do worry about the pressures of climate afflicting the rose gardens in CA where many rare roses reside. There are rose gardens on the east coast and in "flyover country" that might be very happy to have specimens of some of those roses added to their collections. Am I correct in assuming that the CA plant quarantines mostly concern imports to (and within) the state?

I can't say where- or if- the real 'Irène Watts' still resides in this world, but if I had to bet on 'FD' still residing anywhere, I think I'd have to go with 'somewhere in Australia'. At the bottom of this post is a longish quote about Teas in Oz that I got from Google Books' sample of 'Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens'. Probably should have started a new thread: Where in the World is 'Francis Dubreuil'?, but it's kinda late for that now...

Cheers,
Virginia

From 'Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Climates by Lynne Chapman, Noelene Drage, Di Durston, Jenny Jones, Hillary Merrifield, and Billy West:

A contemporary of Alister Clark's, George Knight (1882- 1961), established a nursery at Homebush, Sydney, around 1900, and imported roses as a source of budwood, mainly from Northern Ireland (Worth 1962). He did not just look back with regret to the days of the Teas, but actively promoted them as fine plants for both private and public gardens.

In a 1913 'Australian Rose Annual' article entitled “Tea Roses in New South Wales”, Knight detailed how well the Teas grew in his state. He went on to say that as growing conditions were so varied, no one class of rose would suit for all districts, but Teas could be depended upon to perform in most situations and “if left much to themselves, will not only grow into large bushes, but will produce roses of good quality and in abundance”.

Writing of his 30-year-old roses, he recommended that civic authorities could well take note of how successfully this class would perform as large shrubs in the public domain. The suitable varieties, growing “eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom”, were “Corallina, Mme Antoine Mari, Marie Van Houtte, Mme Lombard, Mme Charles, Dr Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle Christine de Noue [and] Mrs Dunlop Best” (the last now considered to be a Hybrid Tea).

Italian-born nurseryman and writer B. V. Rossi (1860-1953) had a real admiration for the Teas and regretted their impending eclipse. He commented that:
“the scent in Tea Roses is an elusive quality difficult to grasp, and one which loses significance in the fact that Tea Roses are threatened with complete extinction in the near future. This class is particularly adapted to Australia and other countries with a similar climate; it revels in a warm, dry atmosphere, yet it is gradually disappearing. This is nothing short of a Rose tragedy.” (Rossi 1930)

In spite of his recognition that Teas were ideal roses for Australia, Rossi's later catalogues are virtually Tea-less- presumably, they did not sell well.

However, it seems that for a brief time the pleas of Tea-loving writers fell on fertile ground. By the mid-1930's, against the wave of Hybrid Tea, Pernetiana and Polyantha novelties, a number of nurserymen were offering a larger range of Tea roses.

Hazlewood Bros included some that had not appeared before in their descriptive catalogues, such as 'Monsieur Tillier', 'Safrano', 'Mrs B. R. Cant', 'Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand', 'Comtesse Festitics Hamilton' and 'Dr. Grill'. Others, among them, ''Comtesse de Labathe'', Mlle Christine de Nouë', 'Francis Dubreuil' and 'Mme Lambard', had not been listed since the 192's. Harry Hazlewood was also advocating that as Tea roses were so suited to Australian conditions they should be used in future breeding programmes:

“Unfortunately, work on this class appears to have been dropped, and so far there is no evidence that any attempt to Tea Rose development is contemplated. Perhaps a new generation will write of Rose development by an Australian hybridist who brought the Tea Rose to the standard it so richly deserved.” (Hazlewood 1940)

In 1939, the Western Australian nursery, Hawters, advertised the Teas 'Georges Schwartz', 'Hugo Roller', 'Lady Hillingdon' (and Climbing), 'Lorraine Lee', 'Maman Cochet' (and Climbing), 'White Maman Cochet', 'Mme Charles', 'Mrs Herbert Stevens' (and Climbing), 'Molly Sharman-Crawford'', 'Noëlla Nabonnand', 'Penelope', 'Rainbow Improved', Souvenir de Stella Gray' and 'Sunset' which they offered “with every confidence to the public knowing they will not be disappointed with the results”.

Two years later, a Melbourne nursery owned by 'Editor' Stewart's son was selling over thirty Tea roses, among them 'Harry Kirk', 'Ma Capucine', 'Mme de Watteville', 'Muriel Grahame', 'Niphetos', 'Papa Gontier', 'Perle des Jardins', 'Princesse de Sagan', Sovenir de Pierre Notting', 'E. Veyrat Hermanos', 'The Bride' and 'Devoniensis'.

This final flare of popularity was short-lived and was to be the last gasp of the Teas for several decades.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Quarantines depend upon the originating county in the state, Virginia. That was one of the issues Vintage had. Because of their very benign climate (which is only one of the reasons real estate is so outrageously priced in that area), they were in an overlap of several quarantines. They're mainly pest related concerning roses, but we do have many quarantine areas here because of the huge agriculture industry. That was a large reason their shipping and paperwork costs were substantially greater than for any other sources here. It had nothing to do with their relationships with inspectors or agencies as had been suggested a few times over the years. They simply were located where there were many more potential issues possible due to climate.

Jeri lives in a traditionally cooler, traditionally damper area than I do, so she has additional quarantines that my area doesn't. If the point of origin is extremely hot and arid, there usually aren't many (if any) restrictions on roses as the climate doesn't often support pests and diseases, but the more mild, damp and/or wet it is, the greater the restrictions. Bugs and diseases love those "green house conditions", just like most people do.

There are also those imposed by the receiving states which usually are required by whatever agricultural crops they raise. Florida carefully screens agricultural material for many more potential issues than South Carolina might, mainly due to the shared agricultural crops raised. Florida and California are both huge citrus producers, South Carolina, not so much.

Oh, yes! "The Old Tea Bags"! Wonderful group of ladies who have done much to clear up the confusion surrounding Teas and other older roses in Australia. I'm not being disrespectful. That is what they called themselves when they presented at a Huntington Old Rose Symposium twenty-plus years ago. Lovely ladies, all of them and a real pleasure to have met and remain in contact with over the Net through several venues.

You're probably correct that Irene and Francis stand a bit better chances of exisiting somewhere in Australia, though between The Tea Bags', David Ruston's, Laurie Newman's and several others efforts, I should think they would have been "discovered" by now. There really have been keen rose investigators working diligently "down under" for many years. There are fewer and fewer hiding places every year. I hope they exist, but, even though I look good in blue, I'm not holding my breath. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Virginia, there is a chapter in Hazel Le Rougetel's book on Australia & New Zealand. I didn't find any mention of Francis Dubreuil though.

However, she mentions a proposal to establish a repository of tender old roses at the Waite agricultural Research at Adelaide. I don't know what happened to it. Kim can enlighten us more.

You can check the book by Trevor Nottle, Growing Old-Fashioned Roses in Australia & New Zealand.

Kim, I read this description, by Graham Thomas about the Lambertiana roses, I thought it might bring you a smile: Neither large in flower, nor decisive, some where not even beautiful in colour, and they lack personality. I discarded the lot.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Tessiess 9b, SoCal Inland, 12 (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 22, 14 at 14:25

Has anybody tried R. macrantha 'Daisy Hill'? Or R. dupontii?

Melissa


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Hi Kim-

The reason I mentioned the quarantines was to see how they might affect any rose exports from the state. If I understand you correctly, there would only be issues if shipping to another state with restrictive quarantines such as FL or TX.

As far as I know, SC doesn't really have a lot of restrictions- we were a citrus producing state long ago (did you know the Spaniards had citrus groves here in the 16th C?), but our winters are occasionally out of the citrus comfort zone, so that's pretty much past tense as an agricultural crop.

I wouldn't mind bagging some of those Aussie Teas for my own garden... When I look at the Tea selection at nurseries Down Under, I feel a bit giddy. 'Hugo Roller' especially makes me want to take up rose pirating on the High Seas...

If Mr Knight was extolling the virtues of his 30-year-old 'FD' in the 1930's, it does sound like it wasn't exactly a weakling rose. I believe that the Knights' nursery was in business until the mid-1970's, and there is now a public rose garden with over 500 roses just down the street from where that nursery was. Hmmm...

I don't know if the Tea Bag Ladies have been specifically looking for 'FD'. If so, it's likely they would have tracked him down by now. Unless he's hiding in plain view under an assumed name such as 'Souvenir de Thérèse Levet' or 'Barcelona' or somebody else. I think we should start a Kickstarter campaign to send you out there to investigate!

I know very little about the true 'Irène Watts' and her hardiness/ stamina, but I do like 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'... From reading early descriptions at HMF, I wonder if the confusion could have predated Mr Beales' attempts to ID old garden roses? That might explain his conviction that he had the real deal?

I'm not holding my breath either. I think today has been our hottest day yet this year- the heat index at present (7pm) is 107F. Urgh.

Argle bargle,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Thanks for the tip of R. californica's expansive nature. I'll make sure she has plenty of room to roam, perhaps out by the generator shed or on the slope. That said, a budded one nearer the house would be so pretty. Kippy, The deer do graze this one, usually starting about now. However, I know where there is another one we can check out.

Cattle and gophers we mostly can deal with although we were gone last week and I lost Bewitched. The wind and soil - well, the roses and I do our best. Keeping the deer away is another story as we are the gourmet deli on the hill. All is good in its own way.

-Nancylee


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

true-blue, I tried to track down that rose garden using Google, and I saw repeated mentions of a 20th Century Rose Garden that traced the history of roses. Not at all clear if the history is all-inclusive or- as the name rather suggests- limited to that of the 20th C.

I did find references to 'Francis Dubreuil' being grown in at least two of the Old Parliament House Gardens- both the Senate Gardens and the House of Rep's Gardens.

I didn't see rose lists for any other rose gardens, but I'm especially curious about Sydney's Rookwood Necropolis and the Rumsey Heritage Rose Garden at Parramatta Park.

I reckon those Tea Bag Ladies know what they're about, though, so probably if there were long lost treasure to be found, they'd have found it already. I just like a bit of long-distance speculation. (I think I read too many Nancy Drew and Agatha Christie novels growing up.)

I forgot to mention that I liked your photo of the R glauca hips- what a shame they aren't as tasty as they look...

Thanks,
Virginia

This post was edited by vmr423 on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 1:46


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Hi Virginia, no ma'am, I had no idea citrus was grown there. Interesting! I think if you checked with your State Agricultural Dept., you'd be surprised the restrictions you have concerning importing material into the state.

FD may have found a particularly suitable situation in Mr. Knight's garden and it might even exist in one of those gardens, but it ain't here and it wasn't in commerce until Mr. Beales' FD began showing up in his catalog, then ours once Bob Edberg imported it from him.

Of course confusions could have existed prior to his identification. The scant images of Irene do resemble a less formal, less organized Pink Gruss an Aachen. I've only found two actual color photographs of Irene Watts. (click on the images to enlarge them) The first is from Trevor Griffiths' book, My World of Old Roses, 1983. He was a nurseryman from New Zealand.
Irene Watts griffiths

The second is from Nancy Steen's book, The Charm of Old Roses, 1966, second edition, 1987, also from New Zealand.
Irene Watts steen

Mr. Griffiths also included a photograph of Francis Dubreuil in his book, The Book of Classic Old Roses, 1987.
Francis Dubreuil griffiths

You can rather easily tell from the two photos of Irene that she is not Pink Gruss an Aachen. It's much more difficult to tell much from the photo of Francis. There is historical precedent for the possibility of Francis Dubreuil growing particularly well in Australia, while not so much elsewhere. In Jack Harkness' book, Roses (1977), he wrote that in Australian rose shows, there was a separate class for the HT, Dame Edith Helen (before 1926) because she particularly liked Australia and grew and flowered there to exceptional perfection. So much so that she beat everything else and was banished to a class of her own, half a century after her introduction. Perhaps Francis liked it as well there as Dame Edith Helen did. Who knows?

Oh, heavens! I'm sorry for your heat/humidity! It's been "warm" here, but nothing like that. I pray it subsides soon!

I emailed Glenburn, a friend in Australia who posts here occasionally, asking him to look at this thread and add anything he might have as to whether the rose repository was ever created. It will be interesting finding out. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Quarantines: I know that we have some pretty strict laws about importation/possession of invasive aquatics. We already have Japanese Beetles, Laurel Wilt (sigh) and the whole state is under quarantine for those delightful fire ants.

I guess there must be some bad stuff we haven't got yet, though, so probably there are more regulations than I'm aware of.

I had no idea that there were color photos of 'Irène Watts'. She's a pretty rose, but I think I prefer 'Pink Gruss An Aachen'. Or perhaps 'PGAA' is just more photogenic. If she was still around in the 1980's, she may still be lurking about somewhere. It's hard to remember, though, that the older I get, the further away I am from those same 1980's.

I'd love to go to NZ to look for her, but that's definitely not in my budget.

That photo of 'Francis D' sure looks like it could be 'Barcelona', but I wouldn't want to put money on it either way.

Poor 'Barcelona'- such a great rose, and 'Francis D' gets all the credit.

I think the heat index earlier today was 119F. Crazy. I am so thankful for air conditioning.

'Dame Edith Helen' is pretty darned fabulous. How funny that she was so outstanding that other roses literally couldn't compete with her.

Nodding off now,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Fortunately, it gets too cold for Brown Snail to flourish there. It's a huge pest (size as well as distribution) here were there is either sufficient moisture or irrigation. Danged French! Like the yellow mustard which "graces" every square inch of land where there is any spring water, they were also brought as "food". I don't know if you have Brown Apple Moth or Glassy Winged Sharp Shooter, but both can wreck havoc with commercial crops. Then, there are Med Fly and Fruit Flies, both Asian and Mediterranean and those are just off the top of my head.

Mr. Harkness' comments about Dame Edith are what spurred me into obtaining and growing her. Of course mine was own root, while I'd bet those magnificient types in Australia were more likely on Fortuniana, but she never lived up to those glowing comments in my Newhall garden. I appreciated her for her age, the beauty and scent she begrudgingly provided me on the infrequent occasions I found she cooperated, but she seemed to live down to how she was found to behave in most other places. Barcelona is a pretty great rose for its vintage. Even when introduced, one of its claims to fame was how heat tolerant those deep petals were. I hope your heat has subsided! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim do you mean that the Francis Dubreuil sold in Australia is the same that Mr. Beale identified as such?

Another Australian Dubreuil

Here is a link that might be useful: Francis Dubreuil Australia

This post was edited by true-blue on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 16:13


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Hi Virginia, I received Kim's mail, I am still on the hunt for more info for you. Kim has mentioned some people which I know and would have contacted so I will go to others, the link below is from Waite Campus,
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/waite-historic/gardens/rosegarden/

Regards David.

Here is a link that might be useful: Adelaide.edu


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Melissa, I really like the Calflora site also, even though I'm not a West-Coaster. A good site for my area (covering the Carolinas and Georgia) is Name That Plant:
http://www.namethatplant.net/index.shtml

I know there are lots of good 'local' sites for most states/ regions, and the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center is a great resource for all regions of the U.S.

Thanks,
Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

True-blue, I have no idea what the Francis Dubreuil they sell in Australia is. I've never been there and we can't import from New Zealand nor Australia. Importing IN to Australia is a major undertaking David can tell you about that as he's been engaged in that. That's why I begged David to see if he could help us out here.

Hi David! Thanks for joining in. I've not contacted anyone other than you about this, so please feel free to include any and all who might be able to shed some light on the subject.

The photo on the Misty Downs site looks like what I've observed from Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona here. I know that means nothing as they could easily resemble each other at different times. The one on Magic Garden Roses looks nothing like anything I've seen here. It could well be the correct rose. I wouldn't know as I've only seen Barcelona. I'd love to see more complete images of that rose; full bush shots, foliage, canes, prickles, buds and flowers in varying stages of development.

David, would you please ask your "panel of experts" about Irene and whether she still grows there? Seeing comparable images of her, not Pink Gruss an Aachen, would also be a treat. Thank you! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Let me jump in to say -- my own County is under strict quarantine because of the Asian Citrus Psyllid. In fact, my neighborhood was visited and sprayed with imidicloprid -- an indignity my own garden escaped because we no longer have any citrus.

SO, I know that I am now constrained from shipping plant material from here, unless it has been inspected. Los Angeles County is under the same quarantine. In fact, Ground Zero for the infestation is Los Angeles County.

I was unaware of this discussion. (Thank you, Kim, for calling it to my attention.) I'll pay attention, now!

Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

"Kim, I read this description, by Graham Thomas about the Lambertiana roses, I thought it might bring you a smile: Neither large in flower, nor decisive, some where not even beautiful in colour, and they lack personality. I discarded the lot."

*** Yes. That sounds like the Sainted Sir Graham.
He doesn't seem to have any realization that the whole world did not share his specific conditions. I'm pretty sure I'd have loathed him.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

If the Lambertianas were seen where they were selected, through historically appropriate eyes, they were probably wonderful. They are anything but in a mid desert/savannah environment. Too much multiflora in too many of them to be happy in alkaline aridity. And, from other peoples' impressions of GST, I think I would agree with Jeri. I learned much from his writings, and was taken in by his admonitions to grow his favorites. Unfortunately, too many writers only know what they know, WHERE they know it and don't know enough to take climate, soil and water into consideration when making suggestions. They write for their specific environments, never thinking that their "truths" might not translate well elsewhere. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I had a look at a rose gardening forum called Rosetalk Australia, and searched for 'Dubreuil' to see if there had been any discussion on the topic.

I found one thread where someone quoted a nursery as saying that every plant of 'FD' for sale in Australia had RMV.

Another thread opened promisingly with someone mentioning the 'FD '= 'Barcelona' situation in the U.S. and Europe and wondering if others thought the same held true in Oz. This person was told not to discuss the topic because anyone who wanted to know should read the 'Tea Roses for Warm Climates' book. Apparently, there is some mention of the topic therein.

A third thread showed someone's photos of 'FD' and 'Eyes For You'. The flower looked a bit small to be 'Barcelona', but I can imagine plenty of reasons why 'Barcelona' might have a small bloom. I am supposing, though, that there must be a resemblance between the two roses, or they wouldn't have been confused with each other by intelligent, experienced rosarians.

So... thanks to Google Books, I found the reference in the 'Tea Roses' book- on page 102, if you're following along...

To summarize, 'Francis D' was a popular rose in Australia from the early 1900's up until the mid-1940's when it disappeared from rose catalogs. Like other Teas, 'FD' was a bit slow to get started, and could get fairly large if in a suitable locale (could reach 8-9' tall). It was either not fragrant at all, or- according to other sources I've seen- had a light Tea fragrance. (Since some people just can't smell Teas very well, I don't think this is inconsistent.)

Around 1981, 'FD' was imported to Australia from Sangerhausen, and that rose is the source for most plants of 'FD' available for sale in Oz (at least at the time the book was published). It has a shorter, stockier growth than most Teas, and the dark red flowers have a strong Damask scent. It has short, pointed buds, whereas the original 'FD' was famous for its long, pointed buds.

Mention is made of the U.S. having 'Barcelona' instead of the real 'FD', and the book concludes that the 'FD' in commerce in Australia is likewise not the original tea rose, although it's not clear who they think their imposter is... Does anyone know if Sangerhausen is growing 'Barcelona' in lieu of 'FD'?

So that's what I've learned from the Tea Bag ladies and Rosetalk Australia.

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Thanks, David, for the link. It clears up my confusion about the 20th Century Garden being a showcase for rose history since it seems there are actually two different gardens: the 20th C Garden and the Heritage Garden. The latter garden has a parterre and species roses and a green rose.

Do you know much about the Rose Heritage group there? It sounds like they have fairly active regional chapters. The only rose repository garden I saw mentioned as such was the garden in Barossa, which sounds pretty amazing! But maybe Ruston's gardens, the Heritage Garden in Adelaide that you sent the link to and Bishop's Lodge are also considered as repository gardens?

It sounds like the original 'Francis Dubreuil' (sometimes spelled 'François Dubreuil') was popular in Australian rose gardens until the mid-1940's, and the newer version wasn't introduced Down Under until 1981. It isn't clear to me that the imposter 'FD' in Australia is 'Barcelona', although some photos look similar.

Since George Knight was a proponent of Teas as good plants for Aussie gardens, and a fan of the original 'FD', I can't help wondering if there aren't some surviving plants in his old stomping grounds in West Sydney (Homebush, Parklea and Kellyville are where he had his nurseries). But it sounds like 'FD' was popular in a lot of places.

Thanks,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

On its own roots, in less-than-favorable (for it) conditions, Barcelona-as-FD really did produce rather smallish blooms -- tho undeniably lovely.

I am told that, on Fortuniana rootstock, it quickly grows tall and massive, and has many very big blooms.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 16:43

Hi again Virginia, I have two other contacts and one nursery that might be able to shed some more light on your search about 'Francis Dubreuil'. One lady works at the Heritage section at David Ruston nursery and the other is a lady that grows roses(found) in Western Australia.
The nursery I am talking about is named Thomas' for Roses. They are an older couple, in their 70s. Old fashioned couple, they do not have a colorful web site, just a list of roses they grow, no electronic monies, cheque/money order stuff. It is coming to the end of our bareroot season, I will contact Glynis when it is over and ask questions about FD. Do you want contact information of all these people, if so I can send privately. I will in the next couple of days contact the people that maybe able to help. Kim, mentioned one person that should be able to shed some light, his name is Laurie Newman.
As for the Heritage Rose group I will get some details.

Regards David.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Jeri, I do tend to think of 'Barcelona' as having large blooms, but I have to remind myself that a) the big, showy ones are the blooms most likely to get photographed and b) it's often hard to tell bloom size in photos anyhow.

If it's true that Australia's 'FD'-in-commerce has RMV, I wonder if that would also affect the bloom size? I don't know much about rose viruses.

If your area is 'Ground Zero' for an infestation that is still pretty localized, it makes complete sense to do everything possible to see if it's eradicable.

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Hi David-

I hope you aren't going out of your way to do all this if it isn't something you're especially interested in yourself. I know I wouldn't be the only rose-lover who'd be pretty thrilled to find out if the original Tea, the real Francis Dubreuil, still exists somewhere, but this may not be your cup of tea?

There seems to be a history of 'FD' thriving and being popular in Aussie gardens, so it's as good a place as any to look. Probably better than anywhere that I know of because of the Heritage Roses organization, and those formidable Tea Bag ladies who have already done so much research into the history of Teas in Oz.

I know less about the history of the China Rose, the real 'Irène Watts', but there have been credible sightings of her in NZ according to the info Kim posted above. I don't know how popular she was in Australia, or if there would be any reason that she might persist in NZ, but not in your country.

If you enjoy looking around for possibly no-longer-existent roses, you are a kindred spirit, and I'll be happy to keep researching what I can online, in case I uncover any leads that might be helpful.

Best regards and thank you,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by luxrosa Richmond, california (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 24, 14 at 20:40

I have a
R. californica. I found a tiny plant in a crack of a sidewalk outside the boundary of a public rose garden, I thought the wee plant was bound to be stepped on and crushed, so I decided to rustle it. Within 2 years it was 4 feet tall and spreading into Mrs. Dudley Cross. From experience I think it would not have minded being crushed at all in its previous location, and would have bounced back with defiance.
I've got to move it this winter to our collectives native garden. although I do love R. californica it spreads like triffids.
-Not only does R. californica have a full bloom cycle in spring but it has scattered bloom
-AND IT RE-BLOOMS ON NEW WOOD.
I kept a remontancy journal for several years on species and roses from 14 classes on how many days of the year each plant bloomed, and I noted for two years that after every time I cut back R. californica in summer, it soon had as full of a flush of bloom on those canes as the initial spring flush.
I sheared off only canes on one half of the plant, to about 2 and 1/2 feet high (leaving the right side of the plant still at c. 4 feet tall) to see the result, and... what a nice surprise. The unpruned side had only a dozen or so blooms spread over a few weeks time, as it always does, while the pruned sides'ew wood produced a full bloom cycle equal to its' spring bloom flush, with dozens of blooms opening on the same day with many dozens of small green rosebuds waiting to bloom.
-Plus the foliage is almost spotless.
- Plus it is one of the rose species that has fragrant foliage, which I find is not as strong or as reliable as R. primula, but when conditions are right it has a scent that reminds me of Bay laurel I think the vintagegardens.com catalog of roses said it had a scent like the "California hills". ...
R. moschata... a wonderful rose, blooms fully for 3-4 months continuously. Very attractive foliage, can be grown as a bush or a climber, or espaliered to save space.
Magnifica' a Rugosa hybrid, which has bloom color and scent, and foliage that is very similar to R. rugosa rubra, but larger flowers.
I was in Marin county a few years ago and thought I saw a R. gymnocarpa growing by the sidewalk near Mt. Tamalpais,whatever wild rose it was it was quite fragrant. It had a more outwardly branching growth habit ( somewhat like a gracile apple tree might appear) than r. californica.
My neighbors R. palustris blooms as often as a Hybrid Tea. Quite a lively shade of pink for a wild rose, but never vulgar. Not only does it bloom many days of the year, but it is drought tolerant as well as flood tolerant, an author reports.

I wish I had room for R. fed, and R. laevigata, which has really cool foliage with 3 leaflets per leaf.
I wish public gardens grew more wild roses, I'd like to see them all, though the Berkely Botanical Garden had more than a dozen wild roses last time I was there;
R. arvensis ( in the apothecary garden near The Apothecary Rose)
R. gigantea
R. moyessii
R. rugosa
R. chinensis spontanea
R. helenae
R. wichurania
R. sempervirens which I saw on a map but couldn't find near the fence on the hill.
and several others.

Lux


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Budded on Pink Clouds and grown under plastic in a green house, FD looked just like Oklahoma at Sequoia. They budded some to push them for propagation, where I saw them in bloom. I asked and Carolyn looked at me like I had twenty heads. I gave it to her and didn't recognize it.

I dead headed a potted, own root FD at a new client's house today. The plant is almost three by three feet in a twenty-four inch plastic pot and kept watered by automatic irrigation. It's one of her many, many hundreds of potted roses filling her patio. In this heat, the blooms were not a full two inches across, but were dark and nicely scented. Very clean foliage, too. I'll try taking a photo of the plant next week when I have my next call.

Thank you, David! The only way to get the skinny on such things is to talk to the people who GREW the REAL ones. We had confusion here between Irish Elegance and Irish Fireflame for decades. Every source for Fireflame supplied Elegance. No one had Fireflame. I couldn't find anything to show or tell me what their differences were, until I talked to Dorothy Crallie, the marvelous lady who owned and operated Pixie Treasures, a now gone mini nursery here. Dorothy knew everyone who was anyone in the rose world. She is the person who told me Elegance's petals are separate and as distinct as the fingers on your hand. Fireflame's petals overlap like Dainty Bess' petals. When Gregg Lowery and Philip Robinson showed me the ancient plant of Fireflame in the Old Korbel garden, I knew immediately it was the REAL Fireflame from the overlapping petals. Had I not been blessed to have known Dorothy, I may never have known how to discern the two from each other.

Hopefully some of these treasures can help illuminate us on how to tell these apart. Thank you! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Virginia, I did a search on OZ rose forums on gardenweb and FD was mentioned in 4 threads and recommended as a very fragrant rose. Probably the one imported from Sangerhausen.

As in regards with your original post, the R. glauca had a more acidic taste today. I assume the squirrel liked it more bland and less sour,as I don't see it in the rose anymore :-)

It is a lovely rose nevertheless, as the hips go through multitude colour variation from maroon to burnt orange and then flaming orange, which contrast agreeably with the blue leaves.

- Bob

Here is a link that might be useful: Francis Dubreuil - Oz rose forums

This post was edited by true-blue on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 14:54


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Jeri, GST's sentence was quoted in contrast to positive exaggeration of rose attributes in rose catalogues. I have seen worse comments on the rose forums :-)

As for the quote itself, it was taken from the chapter on Hybrid Musks. After which he adds Possibly they had some other attribute, such as greater hardiness, which would have appealed to the German raiser. Also he underlines the Lambertiana's important role as a "resting place" to create Hybrid Musks.

Kim, FWIW, if I make the "mistake" by planting a rose recommended by a British rosarian in Canada, I tend to see it as growing experience and a fun challenge. After all I can't blame GST for having bought his book, read it and believe it word for word ;-)


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Once you have sufficient experience, yes, that would be your "fault". But, for who knows how many "newbies" (myself included) who didn't know enough to know what they didn't know, it was terribly frustrating, expensive and disappointing. Make things difficult, even impossible, and you run a great possibility of turning people off the subject. I take offense to people being set up for failure, particularly by "experts". Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Yes -- To make my objection clearer . . .

If a writer, in giving advice, makes it clear that his or her experience is in specific conditions -- that's OK. But GST had a habit of issuing "absolutes." Your garden MUST have these things . . . And yes, I also was a beginner who simply didn't realize that he knew nothing about conditions like mine.

In our enthusiasm, I think many of us make the same error. I know I have . . . To say that a rose is wonderful, and EVERYONE should grow it . . . Eeek! Disaster ahead!

Because gardening really is like Real Estate. The most important element is "Location, Location, Location."

That's why the Tea Bag's book is so valuable to those of us in warm climates. The roses that succeed for them are likely for the most part to succeed for me. That's priceless.

Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Well, the question is whether we see these "errors" as valuable experiences or just a mistake.

BTW I tend to take "absolutes" with a grain of salt :-)


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Sorry Kim, didn't see your post.

I understand the frustration both emotionally and economically. I understand it could be a turn off, especially when the investment is substantial. Many a time, I bought the wrong plant, being newbie. Yet, ultimately that's part of the gardening experience, the learning curve, don't you think so?


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Lux, it sounds like you have an amazing collection there. And R. californica sounds like a great choice for anyone with the space and climate to grow it.

I think R. palustris sounds like a rose I'd enjoy, especially since it tolerates floods, droughts, light and shade. I'm told that it has a nice habit with elegant canes, though I imagine that may be a variable trait.

I love the idea of R. moschata, simply because of the descriptions of its heady, wafting fragrance. I'm not sure if it would be happy in hot'n'humid SC, but if not, I can love from afar.

Thanks for the report,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

true-blue, I didn't realize there was a special GW forum for Aussie gardeners. One of those posts answered a question I had about 'FD' in Parramatta Park. I was thinking that if 'FD' was in the Rumsey Rose Garden, it might be a holdover from George Knight's nursery stock, since his nursery inhabited land on either side of Parramatta Park.

Howsomever. Then I read the page on 'FD' in the 'Tea Roses' book (which is a great reference that I think I need to buy even though I'm not an Aussie gardener), and it turns out that the nursery that imported the Sangerhausen 'FD' to Australia in 1981 was... Rumsey's.

So, I pretty much figured that if the garden was named for the nurseryman, it was unlikely to feature the old 'FD', but rather the Rumsey import. Since the post about roses in Parramatta Park made mention of how fragrant 'FD' was, that pretty much confirms my suspicion, and dashes my hopes for the Rumsey Rose Garden as a hide-out for ye olde 'Francis'.

I can't help wondering if a rose that was apprently so well suited to Sydney conditions, and also apparently quite popular in the first half of the 20th Century might still be lingering about there or somewhere else in Oz or NZ...

I'd imagine that the average homeowner who inherited a trouble-free old Tea rose might not worry about the name of the rose. Especially, if it had a label or a word-of-mouth ID from previous homeowners. Only someone who was pretty interested in roses would know to wonder if they had the original 'FD' or the later imposter... And, of course, that applies to folks in any country that might have once had the original 'FD', the original 'Irène Watts' or any other rose that is in commerce as something other than the original rose.

Virginia

PS If your squirrels are like my squirrels, they have to bite into anything within reach even if they aren't hungry. But if tart rose hips aren't appealing to them, so much the better...


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

So to conclude the one in the US is Barcelona,
The one in Oz is non pointy fragrant rose,

What about the one in France, sold by La Roseraie du Désert?

Here is a link that might be useful: Photo of FD at R du D

This post was edited by true-blue on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 21:47


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Oh, Virginia! You need Moschata! Ever hear of the Noisette roses? Chinas X Moschata, born and raised in Charleston, SC. You live in the cradle of Noisette creation! Whatever you obtain, Moschata needs to be one of them! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

true-blue, I strongly suspect that all of these dark red, extremely fragrant roses are 'Barcelona', but I say that just because of what I've been reading, and NOT because I can ID 'Barcelona' from photos.

Anyone else have a more informed opinion?

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I think the French description of "very fragrant" probably answers the question. Francis isn't "very fragrant", but Barcelona is.

When the Irene question was the hot topic, mention was made that someone should obtain Irene from the Guillot Nursery as the grandfather created it. There was one, huge problem with that...after the grandfather, there was a many decade break in continuity. The grandson re established the nursery and obtained roses from all over. Syl Arena of Arena Roses, had the US contract for Guillot roses and he supplied Guillot with Irene, which he obtained from Clair Martin at The Huntington, who obtained it from ME, who obtained it as cuttings from Mike Lowe (Lowe's Own Root Roses, Nashua, NH), who obtained it from Mr. Beales, who identified it.

That's the way these things work, and have for many, many years. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, I thought this HMF link might interest you re that color photo of 'Irène Watts' in Nancy Steen's book. Apparently, in NZ, both Pink Gruss an Aachen and 'Comtesse de Labarthe'
were sold as 'Irène Watts', and the photo is thought to be of the Comtesse.

Maybe so, maybe no.

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: HMF photo


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

There you go. Thanks, Virginia. Nice to know we aren't the only ones clueless about these things, isn't it? When you actually think about it, isn't it amazing with all the variables and missing plants and length of time that we ONLY have these mysteries? There are FD/Barcelona; IW/Pink Gruss an Aachen; Sombreuil NOT/Mlle. de Sombreuil; Spencer/Enfant de France; Jacques Cartier/Marquise Boccella; the cleared up Irish Elegance/Fireflame which come to mind, leaving all those other orphaned old roses with potentially correct identities. That's a pretty good record, IMHO. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I am loving this thread and am so thankful it was brought up, sorry forgot by who, that the book Tea Roses;Old Roses for Warm Gardens is on google book!

Had to enjoy a giggle at the box of tags...in case anyone remembers that thread.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Here's a link to a photo at the Heritage Roses web site that has a pretty good photo of the rose that is in commerce Down Under as 'Francis Dubreuil'.

Do y'all think this is the same fragrant, dark crimson rose as the rose sold in the U.S. as 'F.D.', i.e., 'Barcelona'? I think it looks pretty similar to photos at HMF, but some of you are actually growing 'Barcelona', either as itself or as 'Francis Dubreuil'...

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: Photo of Aussie not-Francis Dubreuil


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

# 31 of 38 photos in the early HT section? Yes, that is what Barcelona looks like here when there is rain, and the temps aren't in the nineties and above. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, I kinda forgot that R. moschata was a Noisette parent. So far, I only have one Noisette, and supposedly, it isn't fragrant. :>(

If I succumb to your sales pitch- again- which version of the Musk Rose ought I to obtain? I'm not saying that you're such a great enabler, I'm just saying that I like the idea of heady, wafting fragrance...

Charleston has a nice collection of Noisettes in its municipal parks, and there is a rose that I've encountered in one of the parks that just has the most wonderful scent. The roses aren't labeled because the labels make it easier for plant thieves to steal the roses, so I guess I'll need to go back, sniff around until I find it, and take photos to post for an ID. I don't know if it's a Noisette, but there's a pretty good chance that it is.

Sleepily,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I openly admit I am spoiled. I don't want a "seasonal bloom", I want flowers any time the weather would suggest there should be flowers. For that reason, I am partial to Secret Garden Musk Climber. Here, it's healthy and ever flowering. If we had enough humidity, the air wasn't so bloody hot and dry and it was still enough, I'm sure there would be scent "wafting" across the garden. I just don't have the conditions which foster that. The paler colors bleach out ot white here very quickly, and the very papery petals of many Noisettes crisp quickly. Secret Garden's are five petals so they flower earlier, later and faster than the more double flowered ones will and they last better than many I've grown. Your conditions (and likely taste) are different, so photographing the ohe you like is probably the best idea for identiying it.Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 26, 14 at 3:49

This thread is every where, but I like it, Virginia, I would give my left arm for "Secret Garden Musk Climber", so would about five others here in OZ, one member on my little forum has "actually" seen it when she was in the US. I will have to start working on getting it to OZ.
Regards David.

P.S. Kim have you got Virginia's email address please and if so could you send it to me if Virginia does not mind, that way I can get the people on this side with her, shortening the chase as they say.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I don't have her address, David, and I don't think we should move the discussion off the forum. There are a number of people interested and this provides a single place for us all to see the latest 'developments'. Thank you for your efforts to sort out this confusion. I would LOVE to see it finally settled so the real star can finally assume his rightful name! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Just chiming in after a week-long party in the woods (too knackered to do anything except hover over the PC languidly lifting a single finger) to offer a shout out for both Daisy Hill (macrantha) and R,Dupontii. DH is THE rose for a sunny bank - a true procumbent rose which uses its thorns to cover the ground at an astonishing rate....with tough, yet translucent looking blooms with that all important (to me) coronet of stamens - a trait dupontii also has in spades. In truth, dupontii longed for a warmer spot than where I placed it and it never really blossomed as profusely as it can (I went for helenae in a similar spot with much more success ). I am having a minor epiphany about this woodland gardening though so the potential abandonment of numerous roses is likely to be extensive and painful.....and I am being shamefully seduced by the rubus tribe, in all its flowering, fruiting glory.....


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Tue, Aug 26, 14 at 16:43

No problem Kim.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

David, you're absolutely right- this thread is pretty wild and unpruned with interesting little gems hidden all over. Like the best sort of messy garden.

I'm going to have to go back and figure out how it morphed from a native species roses thread to take on that are-Francis-and-Irene-really-lost-forever topic, but clearly this is a thread that is multi-tasking with a vengeance.

David, I'm not sure if I could figure out how to get you my e-mail address without making it public for the spam-bots, but I agree with Kim that there are other folks who are interested in some rose sleuthery, and let's keep the discussion public so nobody feels shut out.

Thanks,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I tried to synthesize all info about Francis Dubreuil, according to the references on HMF form 1894 - 1931
Hope it helps.

- Francis Dubreuil - 1894 Tea rose

- Color: Crimson red, velvety purple, bright cherry, amaranth

- Bud: Long egg-shaped bud, Ovoid.

- Form: Thick petals, big sized flower

- It is undistinguishable from Souvenir de Thérèse Levet by most.
- Only one mention of the scent: 1916 (Tea scented) focus is mostly on size, “rare” color for the time, abundant, floriferous blooms and beautiful bud form.

- In a US Catalogue - Andorra Nurseries Catalog, Chestnut Hill, Pennsylvania, USA 1903

- An English journal describes that the growth as diffuse, not recommended in a garden unless upon a low wall. Perfect as a standard. It continues that it is not recommended for pot culture, ”..it has a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted.”

- Grown in Homebush, (a suburb of Sydney) New South Wales by George Knight as a child. Probably early 1910s.

- A 1936 German publication mentions that it has bluish green foliage, firm upright stems. It seems that the rose was grown in Sangerhausen.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

But the rose Sangerhausen had was 'Barcelona.'

It was because Sangerhausen sent their rose to Beales for identification that it was confused with Barcelona.

OH -- And, FWIW ... I have grown Souv. de Therese Levet. It could no no way be confused with the rose I grew as 'Francis Dubreuil.'

I wish I'd known about THAT quote!

Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Jeri one early account mention that the rose is sort of floppy.

This is the exact quote from HMF (I have put in bold the differing points)

The 1936 is :Dubreuil, Francis (tea) Dubreuil 1894; velvety purple-crimson, vivid cherry-red and fiery amaranth reflexes, medium size, very double, fine form, lasting, opens, thick rounded petals, ovoid buds, floriferous, continuous bloom, autumn-bloomer, firm upright stems, dark bluish green foliage, growth 6/10, well-branched. Sangerhausen. [Rosenlexikon Book (1936) Page(s) 220.]

There is also another fact to consider, I don't know to what extent the plants at Sangerhausen were affected during the war. I hope nothing like Malmaison, which was destroyed.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Campanula, I had to look up 'Daisy Hill', and she's a pretty thing. I'd heard of R dupontii, but your description had me looking it up again. Very nice, indeed. Do you find these roses fragrant?

Does your epiphany have to do with wanting more trees, shade and woodland plants? I am interested in roses that will like such an environment, since we have lots of oaks, and I do love the shade they provide. I've also been trying to grow some woodland natives from seed- with varying degrees of success.

I adopted a rescue rubus plant, and it seems happy in bright shade. I haven't had any flowers/ fruit yet, but the plant itself looks healthy, so I'm guessing the flowers/fruit/ID may not happen until next year...

It's been a rough day, and I'm starting to drift off.

Regards,
Virginia

This post was edited by vmr423 on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 13:22


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 7:48

It might take me time, but I have sent some hounds out to the far flung ends of Australia(OZ) to get answers, please be, patient, we have just got the internet/phone connected to the out reaches of this big brown land.
David.

This post was edited by Glenburn on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 8:00


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

True-Blue -- Our late friend The Kernel (Col. Mel Hulse, of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden) remarked once that a WWII Tank battle had been fought over part of what is Sangerhausen.

Couple THAT with the unfortunate pilfering of many of Sangerhausen's records by the Soviet Army and I am left to consider that any number of losses and mis-identifications are not only possible, but almost certain to have happened.

Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I see I'm coming in very late in this conversation. First, I wanted to mention that R. palustris is also very happy living in San Jose, and I know it blooms in the fall. It may bloom all summer, but I don't look at it that often.

On the Francis Dubreuil question, at one time, years ago, someone from Singapore posted photos of some tea roses she grew in pots. I saved the photos to a file. I don't know where she got them, but her FD was deep pink in the photo, a bit darker than her Bon Silene. Certainly not as dark as Barcelona.

And finally, anyone who'd like a really nice R. californica is welcome to come to my house in Santa Cruz, and dig up a sucker.

Jill


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

true-blue, your summary was helpful, and got me looking a bit more deeply into 'Francis Dubreuil' vs 'Souvenir de Thérèse Levet'.

From what I can tell, the form of the flower was very similar- a full flower, somewhat open.

The color of 'Thérèse' was said to be a deep red or poppy red or "pure, clear, velvety crimson" in early references. More modern references often say she is a dark red or dark crimson, but- with one or two exceptions- most of the photos show a flower that I would call crimson, not especially dark.

Earlier on this thread Kim mentioned how roses were marketed according to what was considered desirable and novel at the time. I wonder if these attributes of poppy-red and clear red were a bit exaggerated so that rose buyer would feel they were getting a rose that was more red than dark pink? At any rate, I think that the solid crimson color would have been sufficiently unusual in a Tea rose without being marketed as poppy-colored, but what do I know? (I am supposing that poppies in France were what I'd call poppy-colored today- a clear red with a slightly orange-y tone to it?)

At least one early reference to 'Thérèse' mentions that her "odor is powerful and delicious". She was said to have large, hooked thorns.

'Francis' was said to be dark red or dark crimson to 'velvety purple' with hints of cerise or amaranth or "fine velvety crimson red with reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink". Or "rich dark amaranth-red colour, with a maroon shading". My guess is that different growing conditions could account for some of the different descriptions, but people perceive color differently also, and then again there is the paintbrush of the marketer...

His dark red buds were long and ovoid, and considered to be quite elegant. I didn't see any references to thorniness or lack thereof.

Fragrance was apparently not his strong point, with one perfunctory mention of a Tea fragrance- possibly just someone supposing that a Tea rose must have at least some Tea fragrance. There was a reference to 'FD' having no fragrance, but some people just can't smell Teas, and even if they can, the scent can be elusive- depending on time of day, etc.

Most references say that both 'Francis' and 'Thérèse' were attractive, dense garden shrubs, though there's always a critic: "Neither this variety ['Francis Dubreuil'] nor Souvenir de Therese Levet is seen to very great advantage as bush plants, their growth being rather too diffuse to be used as garden varieties, but upon a low wall they would be grand." I suppose that choice of understock might have played a part in these differences of opinion?

Reading all this, it seems that these roses were similar enough that one might be fairly easily mistaken for the other. If 'Barcelona' was decreed by Beales, et al. to be 'Francis Dubreuil', might some people have scratched their heads while looking at their old 'Francis Dubreuil' roses, and figured that they might not have 'FD' after all, but 'SdTL' instead?

Or they might have been mistaken for one another at a much earlier date- most of the references remark on at least some similarity, while one 'expert' claims they were so similar that "except to an expert, there is very little difference between them". I tend to be suspicious of this sort of pronouncement, myself, but there must have been some resemblance.

Thanks again,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Barcelona was not introduced until 1932.

Any confusion with a much-older Tea Rose seems unlikely until some years had passed.

Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

David, I know I'm not the only person who is curious to know what you may be able to find out, and grateful for sending out those feelers...

And I'm so appreciative that pretty soon, I'm gonna teach myself to sail, and when I'm good enough to sail over your way, I'll get a whole bunch of 'Secret Garden Musk Climber' plants (closely inspected by a plant pathologist), head over to Oz and you'll just have to row out to where I'm anchored, and you'll finally have this rose for your very own. And you won't even need to give up your left arm- after all, it might be tricky to row back without it.

Actually, I really am that grateful, but sailing to Oz does seem a bit unrealistic, so if you can find that rose some other way, you might want to not rely on my future sailing abilities...

If it makes you feel better, I would really, really like a Tea rose that seems to be readily available Down Under, but not here: 'Hugo Roller'. Funny how these things happen, huh?

Thanks again for going to so much trouble,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 17:01

Chateau de Lacroix-Laval
Les Chemins de la Rose
Mottisfont Abbey
Roseraie de la Cour de Commer
Roseraie du Val-de-Marne à l'Haÿ-les-roses
Here are 4 places in France that grow Francis and one in England, my thoughts would be to contact one or all, the best bet would be 'l'Hay I think and ask them.
One of the people I am contacting is Patricia Routley in Western Australia, I would think Kim has made contact with her in the past, I was just going through some HMF stuff about her and found this bit,
"It would be wonderful if you have found the original (true) Francis Dubreuil. I'm told there weren't many dark red Teas. It might be worth comparing yours with Princesse de Sagan.
Best wishes for 2014,
Margaret"
The plot thickens Virginia, possibly,
Regards David.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Jeri, Virginia alludes to the following quote:
"François Dubreuil, In many respects like Souvenir de Thérèse Levet. Opinion seems to be divided as to which is the best of the two. […] but, except to an expert, there is very little difference between them." [The Book of the Rose, 2nd Edition 1902 - By Rev. A. Foster-Melliar ]
Note the first transformation of Francis to François :-)

The rose is mentioned in many other publications, if one has the patience to go through a google book search.

David it might interest you, that was mentioned twice in the 1899 Edition of the Queensland Agricultural Journal. I also found the rose on their database. But it could be Barcelona. As it has a strong (fort) fragrance.

- Bob

This post was edited by true-blue on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 21:58


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

David, here's a photo I found online of Mottisfont's 'Francis D'.

There are also a couple of photos of Mottisfont's 'FD' at HMF- contributed by Orsola:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.248802
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.248801

What do you think?

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: Photo of 'FD' at Mottisfont


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Jill, thanks for your reports on R. palustris and R. californica. Your photo is great- I do think R. californica is one of our prettiest native species roses, and your photo illustrates why.

It would be interesting to see the Singapore 'Francis Dubreuil' to compare with 'Barcelona'. I suppose that in extreme temps, most dark red roses will look somewhat faded, and then there's the issue of accurate color reproduction in photos... reds and bright pinks are notoriously tricky to get right...

Thanks again,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 5:03

Virginia, I am a hunter, not a thinker. I am going to contact Amanda Beales, Peters daughter, she may have some records of conversations or similar.
Bob, we had limited nurseries back then which imported material, I guess it is called "back tracking".
On another note I am going to launch of a rose in Sydney NSW in October and prior to that will contact Parramatta Council which "looks" after the Roy Rumsey garden in the park which is "supposed" to contain Francis D.
At present best I can do.
David.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

David, the 'FD' in Parramatta Park is almost certainly not the old Tea rose- it was described on a forum recently as one of the most fragrant roses at the Rumsey garden. Which makes sense, given that Rumsey was the one who imported the ersatz 'Francis Dubreuil' to Australia from Sangerhausen in 1981. Not that I blame him in the least for that...

It sounds like a lovely garden to visit in the springtime, but I no longer have hopes of ye olde 'FD' lurking within- at least not under his own name...

If I were headed that way, I'd look for roses in that Homebush/ Parklea area where Knight's nurseries were. Or perhaps you could find out if the roses he planted as a child in the early 1900's might still be in situ. I wonder what might have happened to the nursery's stock when it closed in the 1970's? Possibly, it was all sold off, but perhaps at least some roses persist in the areas where the nursery sites were.

I also happened to noticed that the Heritage Roses organization lists Rookwood Necropolis as having a good collection of old roses. It is also in West Sydney, not terribly far from Homebush/Parramatta... I sent an e-mail to the NSW State Library asking if they could find out about a 1988 census of heritage roses at Rookwood, and possibly tell me if 'FD' was listed.

If I have any other brilliant schemes, I'll be sure to let you know!

Best regards,
Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Virginia, the first two photos you posted seem to have the diffuse growth, mentioned in Gardening illustrated 1906. However, the 3rd link, Rogers rose,doesn't seem to be the right rose, as it has an "old rose" fragrance.

However, when I checked David's suggestions, this one seemed promising. Here is a link to their online store Petales de roses of Les Chemins de la Rose and this seems to be the real McCoy. Now if we can ask Scotty to beam it up :-)

Note that fragrance is Léger (light) and is grafted on R. laxa.

I took the liberty to translate the notes:

Antique rose, “Francis Dubreuil”, tea, Dubreuil, 1894. Rare color on a shrub rose. With double flowers, of a dark crimson red almost black would reach a height of 100cm (3 feet 3⅜ inches). Fragrant. Continuous flowering. Prune in spring. Bio: Francis Dubreuil was a tailor from Lyon, who hybridized roses. He is the grandfather of Francis Meillanrd.

Petales de roses opinion: This rose needs light shade, without which the sun might burn the dark red petals. This rose a tad lanky is a good plant for pot culture, despite its thorns.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Thank you David! "The best I can do" is a lot more than any of us are able to do down there. I have decent hopes of something worthwhile coming from your detective work. If the rose is sufficiently vigorous and healthy and if it was fortunate enough to land in a suitably supportive situation, it's possible it may exist somewhere. Those are too often rather rare coincidences but that's what happened to permit Climbing Yellow Sweetheart to be discovered. Marsh's Nursery was in Pasadena, not far from Glendale, where a lady made contact with Jimofshermanoaks on an "Over 50" Internet chat group. They discovered they both liked roses and she said he really should come collect her very old Cl. Cecile Brunner. He told her that wasn't something really rare, but was highly intrigued when she told him of her "yellow, climbing Cecile".

The house was built in 1926. Carol and her folk medicine practicing doctor husband bought it from the original owner in 1960. Ralph Moore bred Cl. Yellow Sweetheart in the late forties and Marsh's Nursery introduced it in 1952. Someone obviously visited Marsh's early in the rose's history as it was reportedly very well established in 1960 when Carol and her husband purchased the house. It was enormous when Jim and I first viewed it nearly ten years ago. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Thanks, true-blue. Now all we can hope is that description is from someone who has actually studied the rose they are selling and not from looking it up on line or in a book. Historically, what's actually being propagated and the associated description are very often not the same. Think of Arena selling JACtan, picturing it in the catalog, yet using the Modern Roses description for the 1940s Butterscotch as one example. The guy growing and propagating the rose is seldom the one charged to write the description. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 16:09

Here is another place I will email.
http://friendsofrookwoodinc.org.au/contact

David.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://friendsofrookwoodinc.org.au/contact


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

FWIW, this description does not match the rose in commerce as Souv. de Therese Levet:

"Antique rose, “Francis Dubreuil”, tea, Dubreuil, 1894. Rare color on a shrub rose. With double flowers, of a dark crimson red almost black would reach a height of 100cm (3 feet 3⅜ inches). Fragrant. Continuous flowering. Prune in spring. Bio: Francis Dubreuil was a tailor from Lyon, who hybridized roses. He is the grandfather of Francis Meillanrd.
Petales de roses opinion: This rose needs light shade, without which the sun might burn the dark red petals. This rose a tad lanky is a good plant for pot culture, despite its thorns."

Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Yes Kim it is somewhat frustrating. I can contact them and ask them directly, if it's ok with all. I checked their database, unfortunately they don't grow Barcelona.

I hesitated posting GST's description of Francis Dubreuil, as mine is the 1994 edition of the book. As I understand Mr. Beales's ID occured in the late 80's early 90s. And this can be the description of "Barcelona". However, if anyone has the 1962 edition of Shrub Roses of Today (1962), and can confirm it is the same text, it could be the correct rose description and consequently the original rose at Mottisfont. FWIW, here goes:

"One of the mysteries among roses is why this superlative, unfading, darkest-crimson variety has been neglected for almost a century. The shapely, fragrant blooms occur in midsummer and again later amid good foliage on a compact bush. 3’ x 2’. "
Rosenzeitung, 1896, plate 3.

Mottisfont's is the only listed garden that grows Francis Dubreuil, unfortunately they don't grow Barcelona. On a hunch, I checked Sangerhausen. They grow both! Back to square one?!
FD at Sangerhausen, Barcelona

What do you think?

- Bob

This post was edited by true-blue on Mon, Sep 1, 14 at 6:36


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

It's going to be funny when they grow the same rose as both, like the gardens and nurseries which have grown and sold (and continue to grow and sell) the same roses as Cornet/Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford/Grandmother's Hat; Irene/PGaA; Commander Gillette/Legacy/Basye's Thornless, etc. Even when the confusion is known, separate entries and separate plants of the identical variety are maintained as specific, different roses. That is really frustrating.

I'd think much "license" was used in creating that 1896 illustration, Bob. I've not seen buds shaped like that on Barcelona and even for many Teas, they are rather "enhanced". Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

  • Posted by Glenburn z8/z9 Mudgee, NSW Au (My Page) on
    Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 17:00

Bob, for what is worth, I have not checked yet, but this is the one I think is our best chance,
Roseraie du Val-de-Marne à l'Haÿ-les-roses

Kim, to the best of your knowledge do we have any French members on RHA or do you know any ?


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Yes, David, Pierre is in France. I've emailed you his full name directly. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

David, I checked the roseraie de la Marne. They had listed the rose as very fragrant. Yet, as Kim said, the one who grows and the one who lists isn't the same :-)

Kim, it starts to feel like The Big Sleep....

- Bob


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Yes sir, Bob, that it does! Welcome to the world of attempting to figure out past confusions! LOL! With quite a few, it's just best to give up and let others tilt at those windmills! Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Jeri, you've touched on a point that is pretty troublesome. Some nurseries offering 'Francis D' are using the old-school description of the rose even though their plant differs from that description.

Others are describing their plant accurately- the Tea rose 'Francis D' would not likely have his faint Tea fragrance touted as a selling point, but 'Barcelona' of course is a different story. But they're still saying that it's Tea Rose 'Francis Dubreuil', 1894.

Reading the GST description above got me thinking about another point. He describes 'FD' as having a spring flush with later rebloom, but to me that sounds like you're really getting two shows a year. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting his meaning, but that does not have the same ring to it as "continuous flowering", as Petales de Roses puts it.

HMF says 'FD', 'Barcelona' and 'SdTL' all "bloom in flushes throughout the season", but I wonder if there are differences in bloom frequency that could be useful ID marks? But comparing bloom frequencies of roses in different climates/ conditions is probably not worthwhile.

I mentioned before that I was a bit skeptical of the writer who said only an expert could tell 'FD' and 'SdTL' apart. One reason is that George Knight, the Australian nurseryman who tried to convince his fellow Aussies that Tea roses were ideal for their gardens, made a point of saying he planted 'Perle des Jardins', 'FD' and 'SdTL' as a boy, and they were now large, floriferous shrubs.

He then goes on to recommend six Teas that he thinks are particularly well-suited to being planted in public gardens. The only one of the original three roses that he recommends is our lad 'Francis'. To me, that only makes sense if there's something about 'FD' that he thinks is better suited for municipal plantings than the other two roses he'd just mentioned...

Of course, he was just a nurseryman and rose hybridizer with four decades (in 1931) of experience growing roses- if he'd been a real expert, he'd have realized 'FD' and 'SdTL' were barely distinguishable...

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Virginia it's all question of context.

1) In the intro GST, laments how difficult it is to grow teas in England, which I didn't provide. The same rose will be 6 feet high or more in Australia / California etc.
2) As I said, this could've been added later by the editor to concord with Barcelona masquerading as FD. This description should be checked with 1st edition, before the misidentification occurred.
3) i made a mistake in my transcription and you made another one while recounting it. Spring vs. midsummer.

Now compound it with all the possible mistakes/ contradictions we've read so far.

THE ONLY WAY AS Kim said is to grow all the plants together and see which is which :-)


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Bob, I've been looking at descriptions of 'Francis Dubreuil' offered by a number of nurseries, and am no longer surprised to see a photo that even I recognize as 'Barcelona' paired up with a recycled description of 'FD', the old Tea.

What does surprise me is how many nurseries don't bother to use a decent photo to accompany the sales pitches. If they even use a photo, it's often blurry or overexposed or looks like it's scanned in from some 1960's publication...

In other words, I don't really trust nursery photos or descriptions. Photos that people have taken in gardens- public or private- are of more interest to me.

For example, if you do a search for Francis Dubreuil at Flickr, there are some photos that look a bit different to my not-very-expert eye. Several roses that I think were from private Italian gardens got my attention, but I would be interested in what others think. Link below...

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: photo search for 'Francis Dubreuil' at Flickr


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Or, DNA testing. While it wouldn't be able to tell you absolutely if one or the other was the original rose without documented examples of either one, it could tell you if something is of Tea origin or contained any of the European rose types. It could also tell you which of the sources grows which rose. It's much like the questions concerning Santa Rosa/Burbank. They're sister seedlings and DNA wouldn't be able to tell you which was which, but it COULD tell you which sources sell which of the two roses and whether those sold as the two roses are actually related, which they should be. Testing could also tell you if Pink Cracker is one or the other, which I suspect it is. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Now you understand what it's been like looking at photos of Sombreuil-NOT for decades and reading about this lovely "Tea". Knowing from just looking at the blamed thing it is a Wichurana climber.

I think another telling fact is, the last documented availablility of the REAL FD in the US was the 1900 Dingee and Conard catalog. If Francis was so great, why did it disappear from commerce here a century or so ago? Theodosia Shepherd had a remarkable selection from her Ventura by the Sea nursery during her several decade operation. She is considered the creator of the California seed and cut flower industries and a very keen plants woman and rosarian. California received everything commercially available from here and Europe due to the extreme wealth the various industries generated, often within months to a year of their foreign introductions. If Francis was such an outstanding rose, why was is missing from Mrs. Shepherd's offerings? And, why did it appear to disappear after 1900? Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Ventura by the Sea


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim said, "I'd think much "license" was used in creating that 1896 illustration, Bob. I've not seen buds shaped like that on Barcelona and even for many Teas, they are rather "enhanced"."

Thank you, Kim, for that. I've been wondering how reliable that illustration could possibly be, with those strange-looking flowers. It's tempting to treat those old illustrations as if they are the equivalent of photographs, but I don't think we'll ever find the original 'Francis Dubreuil' if we go around looking for that rose...

But speaking of photographs, have you perchance had a glance at the 'FD' photos on Flickr? Most look like 'Barcelona', but some I'm not so sure about...

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I've encountered VERY few artist's renditions of roses which actually resembled the reality of the plant. Some are close enough, but still no cigar. Yes ma'am, I viewed the Flickr images and agree that the majority appear to be Barcelona. Those which vary enough to warrant further attention COULD actually be climatic variations. I wish I had taken photos of the more extreme examples of that I have observed. Most were as unidentifiable as many people are when comparing freshly washed faces with "glamour shots". Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

If Francis was such an outstanding rose, why was is missing from Mrs. Shepherd's offerings? And, why did it appear to disappear after 1900? Kim
=====

I have rather a passion for Theodosia Burr Shepherd. Her nursery, after all, was JUST 18 miles from my home. I have facsimiles of two of her catalogs, and Francis Dubreuil is conspicuously absent.

Unless, of course, this thing is Francis . . .

Makes 'ya wonder, doesn't it???


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Actually, not really, Jeri. That Camulos thingy is some sort of old climbing HT. IIRC, didn't that also have a Damask type scent? Those colors just do not come from "Tea" lineage.Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, you ask why 'Francis' disappeared from commerce in the U.S. after 1900.

I will ask you when the HT craze got underway in this country? And is there a connection?

I have a friend who's been growing camellias for more than 80 years, and has been a nurseryman for much of his long life. He loves the tried and tested old varieties, and also loves to grumble about customers who always want to know "what's new?"...

As for left-coast nurseries, I wonder if 'FD' was just one of those plants that does well in some climates, but doesn't like your dry summers. Or your this or your that. Kinda like Jeri's 'Safrano'. Perhaps it did very well in the South, or it would have done well if more than a few folks could have afforded roses.

I have wondered if perhaps 'Barcelona' isn't just a better plant, and deserves to be 'double-featured' in nurseries under its own name and that of 'Francis'.

But then I think about Mr Knight in Australia, planting 'FD' as a boy, and still singing its paises when he's 52, with 40 years of rose-growing experience behind him. And with that 40-year-old 'FD' still going strong in his Homebush garden.

Not too shabby, eh?

Virginia


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I understand your point, Virginia and would counter it with, if Francis was such a rare color among Teas, why did Safrano and others which may not have been all that more vigorous as well as not all that unusually colored remained known and available and he didn't? The HT craze obviously hit them all, but the better growers; the ones more suited to where they were retained; the better scented; healthier and more unusual are usually the ones saved. "Novelty" has always been valued and has always sold. It's entirely possible FD was particularly well suited for Mr. Knight's climate and conditions. Look at Dame Edith Helen. It's also entirely possible Mr. Knight simply favored Francis for his own reasons. Who knows? I do think it is rather telling, seeing what has survived, what hasn't, and I can't help but wonder, "why"?

I have no doubt Barcelona is very likely a superior garden plant in many places. I'd bet it's more vigorous and probably less likely to mildew. But, how satisfied would you be spending twice as much to get rarieties to find you've received the same plant, twice? Been there and it ticks me off royally. If I had KNOWN, I would have ordered something else. Had I wanted two of the same, I would have ordered two of them. You might say the seller simply didn't know. I guess I am a bit less "forgiving" over situations like that. If they had LOOKED at the plants and cared about integrity, surely some mention would have been made about their similarities? Vintage did that sort of thing regularly. If they questioned something, you knew it from reading their Big Catalog. And, you usually had an idea what they thought it might be and why. Kim


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I was really joshin', Kim. And, yes. It did smell "Damask-y."

:-)
Jeri


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I kind of figured you might have been, but honestly, look at Lord Castlereagh and see if you don't see a resemblance. This thing could be something like that, Climbing Souv de Clos Vougeot, Climbing Night or even a few things whose names shouldn't be presented here due to their not being suitable for "modern conversation". It's definitely SOMETHING. Figuring out precisely what is the bug. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Lord Castlereagh


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

I was praying for some cooler weather, that the thing might survive until Fall. It very well may not.

But I've always thought it might be Cl. Chateau de Clos Vougeot. Timing fits.


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RE: Anyone growing native species roses?

Kim, I'm not convinced that the color was so rare- a search of Tea Roses at HMF shows quite a few that are called red or dark red, including FD's presumed ancestor, 'Souv. de David D'Angers'. The dark red color combined with the large flower probably was a real treat, though, and it sounds like the plant was a nice shape if grown in suitable conditions on suitable understock.

I read the review below of 'Francis Dubreuil' from a 1906 issue of Gardening Illustrated Magazine, and felt that 'FD' was being praised for his beauty, but also subtly dismissed. The writer suggests that because 'FD' has a weak neck that the HT's 'Liberty', 'Warrior' and 'Richmond' are better choices for red flowered pot roses, and that 'Princesse de Sagan' is a better choice for mass planting of a red Tea in the garden. 'FD' is best grown as a standard for buttonhole flowers. Honestly, if I were in the market for a red Tea rose in 1906, I wouldn't have rushed out to buy 'FD' after reading this review...

As for why 'FD' wasn't available in U.S. nurseries at the turn of the 20th Century, it may have been due to something fairly simple- poor marketing, problems with importation, plant losses due to weather/poor storage or some other factor(s) lost in the sands of time.

Or you may be right to suspect that 'Francis Dubreuil' just wasn't a very good or useful rose, and American nurseries preferred to devote limited space to better/ more popular plants.

Virginia

Rose Francis Dubreuil
Red Tea Roses appear very much out of place when mixed with other Tea-scented varieties at the exhibitions, but in the garden their value is justly appreciated. It is a question whether the Rose under notice of the variety Souvenir de Therese Levet is the better, but I think the place of honour is usually accorded to Francis Dubreuil. It is a lovely Rose, of exquisite shape in the bud, and of a rich dark amaranth-red colour, with a maroon shading. Its beauty is best displayed when grown in standard form. Here it will make a glorious head, if budded upon a thrifty Brier, and one may always be sure of a good button-hole flower from a tree of this sort. Neither this variety nor Souvenir de Therese Levet is seen to very great advantage as bush plants, their growth being rather too diffuse to be used as garden varieties, but upon a low wall they would be grand. Where highly-coloured flowers are appreciated several plants of Francis Dubreuil should be grown, considering the scarcity of good reds among the Hybrid Teas, and by good cultivation upon well-drained soil blossoms of great beauty may be obtained. Being a true Tea, it is as free flowering in autumn as in summer. The tropical weather of the last few weeks has been very favourable to this Rose, and I have been able to cut numbers of lovely blossoms. There is a beautiful reddish Rose named General Gallieni which is worth growing. It has a tinge of coppery-yellow at base of petals, and often pervading the centre petals, but its general effect is red. Betty Berkeley and Friquet are two other good crimson or...[bottom of the page is cut off]... but the best of all for general effect in the mass is Princesse de Sagan, which is as much a China as it is a Tea Rose. How effective are its velvety crimson blossoms, so quaintly twisted and so freely produced! Another Rose that has been splendid just lately is the Hybrid Tea Etoile de France. I have been inclined to condemn this Rose, but must hesitate in view of what I have lately seen. I am afraid that in a cool or wet season it would be a failure, but in seasons like the present it will be fine. As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted. Market growers have, for this reason, been obliged to discard the variety. Perhaps it is not wanted as a pot-Rose now that we have such beautiful reds as Liberty, Warrior, and Richmond. ROSA.


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