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vicissitudez

Anyone growing native species roses?

Vicissitudezz
9 years ago

I'm interested in growing a rose native to my area, and would like to hear from any of you who are growing native roses.

Native roses for my area include R. carolina, R. palustris, R. setigera and/or R. virginiana, so I'm especially interested in any of those roses, even if you're growing them outside of their native ranges.

Many thanks,
Virginia

Comments (151)

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    # 31 of 38 photos in the early HT section? Yes, that is what Barcelona looks like here when there is rain, and the temps aren't in the nineties and above. Kim

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, I kinda forgot that R. moschata was a Noisette parent. So far, I only have one Noisette, and supposedly, it isn't fragrant. :>(

    If I succumb to your sales pitch- again- which version of the Musk Rose ought I to obtain? I'm not saying that you're such a great enabler, I'm just saying that I like the idea of heady, wafting fragrance...

    Charleston has a nice collection of Noisettes in its municipal parks, and there is a rose that I've encountered in one of the parks that just has the most wonderful scent. The roses aren't labeled because the labels make it easier for plant thieves to steal the roses, so I guess I'll need to go back, sniff around until I find it, and take photos to post for an ID. I don't know if it's a Noisette, but there's a pretty good chance that it is.

    Sleepily,
    Virginia

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I openly admit I am spoiled. I don't want a "seasonal bloom", I want flowers any time the weather would suggest there should be flowers. For that reason, I am partial to Secret Garden Musk Climber. Here, it's healthy and ever flowering. If we had enough humidity, the air wasn't so bloody hot and dry and it was still enough, I'm sure there would be scent "wafting" across the garden. I just don't have the conditions which foster that. The paler colors bleach out ot white here very quickly, and the very papery petals of many Noisettes crisp quickly. Secret Garden's are five petals so they flower earlier, later and faster than the more double flowered ones will and they last better than many I've grown. Your conditions (and likely taste) are different, so photographing the ohe you like is probably the best idea for identiying it.Kim

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread is every where, but I like it, Virginia, I would give my left arm for "Secret Garden Musk Climber", so would about five others here in OZ, one member on my little forum has "actually" seen it when she was in the US. I will have to start working on getting it to OZ.
    Regards David.

    P.S. Kim have you got Virginia's email address please and if so could you send it to me if Virginia does not mind, that way I can get the people on this side with her, shortening the chase as they say.

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't have her address, David, and I don't think we should move the discussion off the forum. There are a number of people interested and this provides a single place for us all to see the latest 'developments'. Thank you for your efforts to sort out this confusion. I would LOVE to see it finally settled so the real star can finally assume his rightful name! Kim

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just chiming in after a week-long party in the woods (too knackered to do anything except hover over the PC languidly lifting a single finger) to offer a shout out for both Daisy Hill (macrantha) and R,Dupontii. DH is THE rose for a sunny bank - a true procumbent rose which uses its thorns to cover the ground at an astonishing rate....with tough, yet translucent looking blooms with that all important (to me) coronet of stamens - a trait dupontii also has in spades. In truth, dupontii longed for a warmer spot than where I placed it and it never really blossomed as profusely as it can (I went for helenae in a similar spot with much more success ). I am having a minor epiphany about this woodland gardening though so the potential abandonment of numerous roses is likely to be extensive and painful.....and I am being shamefully seduced by the rubus tribe, in all its flowering, fruiting glory.....

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No problem Kim.

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David, you're absolutely right- this thread is pretty wild and unpruned with interesting little gems hidden all over. Like the best sort of messy garden.

    I'm going to have to go back and figure out how it morphed from a native species roses thread to take on that are-Francis-and-Irene-really-lost-forever topic, but clearly this is a thread that is multi-tasking with a vengeance.

    David, I'm not sure if I could figure out how to get you my e-mail address without making it public for the spam-bots, but I agree with Kim that there are other folks who are interested in some rose sleuthery, and let's keep the discussion public so nobody feels shut out.

    Thanks,
    Virginia

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I tried to synthesize all info about Francis Dubreuil, according to the references on HMF form 1894 - 1931
    Hope it helps.

    - Francis Dubreuil - 1894 Tea rose

    - Color: Crimson red, velvety purple, bright cherry, amaranth

    - Bud: Long egg-shaped bud, Ovoid.

    - Form: Thick petals, big sized flower

    - It is undistinguishable from Souvenir de Thérèse Levet by most.
    - Only one mention of the scent: 1916 (Tea scented) focus is mostly on size, “rare” color for the time, abundant, floriferous blooms and beautiful bud form.

    - In a US Catalogue - Andorra Nurseries Catalog, Chestnut Hill, Pennsylvania, USA 1903

    - An English journal describes that the growth as diffuse, not recommended in a garden unless upon a low wall. Perfect as a standard. It continues that it is not recommended for pot culture, ”..it has a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted.”

    - Grown in Homebush, (a suburb of Sydney) New South Wales by George Knight as a child. Probably early 1910s.

    - A 1936 German publication mentions that it has bluish green foliage, firm upright stems. It seems that the rose was grown in Sangerhausen.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    But the rose Sangerhausen had was 'Barcelona.'

    It was because Sangerhausen sent their rose to Beales for identification that it was confused with Barcelona.

    OH -- And, FWIW ... I have grown Souv. de Therese Levet. It could no no way be confused with the rose I grew as 'Francis Dubreuil.'

    I wish I'd known about THAT quote!

    Jeri

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeri one early account mention that the rose is sort of floppy.

    This is the exact quote from HMF (I have put in bold the differing points)

    The 1936 is :Dubreuil, Francis (tea) Dubreuil 1894; velvety purple-crimson, vivid cherry-red and fiery amaranth reflexes, medium size, very double, fine form, lasting, opens, thick rounded petals, ovoid buds, floriferous, continuous bloom, autumn-bloomer, firm upright stems, dark bluish green foliage, growth 6/10, well-branched. Sangerhausen. [Rosenlexikon Book (1936) Page(s) 220.]

    There is also another fact to consider, I don't know to what extent the plants at Sangerhausen were affected during the war. I hope nothing like Malmaison, which was destroyed.

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Campanula, I had to look up 'Daisy Hill', and she's a pretty thing. I'd heard of R dupontii, but your description had me looking it up again. Very nice, indeed. Do you find these roses fragrant?

    Does your epiphany have to do with wanting more trees, shade and woodland plants? I am interested in roses that will like such an environment, since we have lots of oaks, and I do love the shade they provide. I've also been trying to grow some woodland natives from seed- with varying degrees of success.

    I adopted a rescue rubus plant, and it seems happy in bright shade. I haven't had any flowers/ fruit yet, but the plant itself looks healthy, so I'm guessing the flowers/fruit/ID may not happen until next year...

    It's been a rough day, and I'm starting to drift off.

    Regards,
    Virginia

    This post was edited by vmr423 on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 13:22

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It might take me time, but I have sent some hounds out to the far flung ends of Australia(OZ) to get answers, please be, patient, we have just got the internet/phone connected to the out reaches of this big brown land.
    David.

    This post was edited by Glenburn on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 8:00

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    True-Blue -- Our late friend The Kernel (Col. Mel Hulse, of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden) remarked once that a WWII Tank battle had been fought over part of what is Sangerhausen.

    Couple THAT with the unfortunate pilfering of many of Sangerhausen's records by the Soviet Army and I am left to consider that any number of losses and mis-identifications are not only possible, but almost certain to have happened.

    Jeri

  • jill_perry_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I see I'm coming in very late in this conversation. First, I wanted to mention that R. palustris is also very happy living in San Jose, and I know it blooms in the fall. It may bloom all summer, but I don't look at it that often.

    On the Francis Dubreuil question, at one time, years ago, someone from Singapore posted photos of some tea roses she grew in pots. I saved the photos to a file. I don't know where she got them, but her FD was deep pink in the photo, a bit darker than her Bon Silene. Certainly not as dark as Barcelona.

    And finally, anyone who'd like a really nice R. californica is welcome to come to my house in Santa Cruz, and dig up a sucker.

    Jill

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    true-blue, your summary was helpful, and got me looking a bit more deeply into 'Francis Dubreuil' vs 'Souvenir de Thérèse Levet'.

    From what I can tell, the form of the flower was very similar- a full flower, somewhat open.

    The color of 'Thérèse' was said to be a deep red or poppy red or "pure, clear, velvety crimson" in early references. More modern references often say she is a dark red or dark crimson, but- with one or two exceptions- most of the photos show a flower that I would call crimson, not especially dark.

    Earlier on this thread Kim mentioned how roses were marketed according to what was considered desirable and novel at the time. I wonder if these attributes of poppy-red and clear red were a bit exaggerated so that rose buyer would feel they were getting a rose that was more red than dark pink? At any rate, I think that the solid crimson color would have been sufficiently unusual in a Tea rose without being marketed as poppy-colored, but what do I know? (I am supposing that poppies in France were what I'd call poppy-colored today- a clear red with a slightly orange-y tone to it?)

    At least one early reference to 'Thérèse' mentions that her "odor is powerful and delicious". She was said to have large, hooked thorns.

    'Francis' was said to be dark red or dark crimson to 'velvety purple' with hints of cerise or amaranth or "fine velvety crimson red with reflections of a lighter shade inclined to pink". Or "rich dark amaranth-red colour, with a maroon shading". My guess is that different growing conditions could account for some of the different descriptions, but people perceive color differently also, and then again there is the paintbrush of the marketer...

    His dark red buds were long and ovoid, and considered to be quite elegant. I didn't see any references to thorniness or lack thereof.

    Fragrance was apparently not his strong point, with one perfunctory mention of a Tea fragrance- possibly just someone supposing that a Tea rose must have at least some Tea fragrance. There was a reference to 'FD' having no fragrance, but some people just can't smell Teas, and even if they can, the scent can be elusive- depending on time of day, etc.

    Most references say that both 'Francis' and 'Thérèse' were attractive, dense garden shrubs, though there's always a critic: "Neither this variety ['Francis Dubreuil'] nor Souvenir de Therese Levet is seen to very great advantage as bush plants, their growth being rather too diffuse to be used as garden varieties, but upon a low wall they would be grand." I suppose that choice of understock might have played a part in these differences of opinion?

    Reading all this, it seems that these roses were similar enough that one might be fairly easily mistaken for the other. If 'Barcelona' was decreed by Beales, et al. to be 'Francis Dubreuil', might some people have scratched their heads while looking at their old 'Francis Dubreuil' roses, and figured that they might not have 'FD' after all, but 'SdTL' instead?

    Or they might have been mistaken for one another at a much earlier date- most of the references remark on at least some similarity, while one 'expert' claims they were so similar that "except to an expert, there is very little difference between them". I tend to be suspicious of this sort of pronouncement, myself, but there must have been some resemblance.

    Thanks again,
    Virginia

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Barcelona was not introduced until 1932.

    Any confusion with a much-older Tea Rose seems unlikely until some years had passed.

    Jeri

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David, I know I'm not the only person who is curious to know what you may be able to find out, and grateful for sending out those feelers...

    And I'm so appreciative that pretty soon, I'm gonna teach myself to sail, and when I'm good enough to sail over your way, I'll get a whole bunch of 'Secret Garden Musk Climber' plants (closely inspected by a plant pathologist), head over to Oz and you'll just have to row out to where I'm anchored, and you'll finally have this rose for your very own. And you won't even need to give up your left arm- after all, it might be tricky to row back without it.

    Actually, I really am that grateful, but sailing to Oz does seem a bit unrealistic, so if you can find that rose some other way, you might want to not rely on my future sailing abilities...

    If it makes you feel better, I would really, really like a Tea rose that seems to be readily available Down Under, but not here: 'Hugo Roller'. Funny how these things happen, huh?

    Thanks again for going to so much trouble,
    Virginia

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chateau de Lacroix-Laval
    Les Chemins de la Rose
    Mottisfont Abbey
    Roseraie de la Cour de Commer
    Roseraie du Val-de-Marne à l'Haÿ-les-roses
    Here are 4 places in France that grow Francis and one in England, my thoughts would be to contact one or all, the best bet would be 'l'Hay I think and ask them.
    One of the people I am contacting is Patricia Routley in Western Australia, I would think Kim has made contact with her in the past, I was just going through some HMF stuff about her and found this bit,
    "It would be wonderful if you have found the original (true) Francis Dubreuil. I'm told there weren't many dark red Teas. It might be worth comparing yours with Princesse de Sagan.
    Best wishes for 2014,
    Margaret"
    The plot thickens Virginia, possibly,
    Regards David.

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeri, Virginia alludes to the following quote:
    "François Dubreuil, In many respects like Souvenir de Thérèse Levet. Opinion seems to be divided as to which is the best of the two. […] but, except to an expert, there is very little difference between them." [The Book of the Rose, 2nd Edition 1902 - By Rev. A. Foster-Melliar ]
    Note the first transformation of Francis to François :-)

    The rose is mentioned in many other publications, if one has the patience to go through a google book search.

    David it might interest you, that was mentioned twice in the 1899 Edition of the Queensland Agricultural Journal. I also found the rose on their database. But it could be Barcelona. As it has a strong (fort) fragrance.

    - Bob

    This post was edited by true-blue on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 21:58

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David, here's a photo I found online of Mottisfont's 'Francis D'.

    There are also a couple of photos of Mottisfont's 'FD' at HMF- contributed by Orsola:
    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.248802
    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.248801

    What do you think?

    Virginia

    Here is a link that might be useful: Photo of 'FD' at Mottisfont

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jill, thanks for your reports on R. palustris and R. californica. Your photo is great- I do think R. californica is one of our prettiest native species roses, and your photo illustrates why.

    It would be interesting to see the Singapore 'Francis Dubreuil' to compare with 'Barcelona'. I suppose that in extreme temps, most dark red roses will look somewhat faded, and then there's the issue of accurate color reproduction in photos... reds and bright pinks are notoriously tricky to get right...

    Thanks again,
    Virginia

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Virginia, I am a hunter, not a thinker. I am going to contact Amanda Beales, Peters daughter, she may have some records of conversations or similar.
    Bob, we had limited nurseries back then which imported material, I guess it is called "back tracking".
    On another note I am going to launch of a rose in Sydney NSW in October and prior to that will contact Parramatta Council which "looks" after the Roy Rumsey garden in the park which is "supposed" to contain Francis D.
    At present best I can do.
    David.

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David, the 'FD' in Parramatta Park is almost certainly not the old Tea rose- it was described on a forum recently as one of the most fragrant roses at the Rumsey garden. Which makes sense, given that Rumsey was the one who imported the ersatz 'Francis Dubreuil' to Australia from Sangerhausen in 1981. Not that I blame him in the least for that...

    It sounds like a lovely garden to visit in the springtime, but I no longer have hopes of ye olde 'FD' lurking within- at least not under his own name...

    If I were headed that way, I'd look for roses in that Homebush/ Parklea area where Knight's nurseries were. Or perhaps you could find out if the roses he planted as a child in the early 1900's might still be in situ. I wonder what might have happened to the nursery's stock when it closed in the 1970's? Possibly, it was all sold off, but perhaps at least some roses persist in the areas where the nursery sites were.

    I also happened to noticed that the Heritage Roses organization lists Rookwood Necropolis as having a good collection of old roses. It is also in West Sydney, not terribly far from Homebush/Parramatta... I sent an e-mail to the NSW State Library asking if they could find out about a 1988 census of heritage roses at Rookwood, and possibly tell me if 'FD' was listed.

    If I have any other brilliant schemes, I'll be sure to let you know!

    Best regards,
    Virginia

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Virginia, the first two photos you posted seem to have the diffuse growth, mentioned in Gardening illustrated 1906. However, the 3rd link, Rogers rose,doesn't seem to be the right rose, as it has an "old rose" fragrance.

    However, when I checked David's suggestions, this one seemed promising. Here is a link to their online store Petales de roses of Les Chemins de la Rose and this seems to be the real McCoy. Now if we can ask Scotty to beam it up :-)

    Note that fragrance is Léger (light) and is grafted on R. laxa.

    I took the liberty to translate the notes:

    Antique rose, “Francis Dubreuil”, tea, Dubreuil, 1894. Rare color on a shrub rose. With double flowers, of a dark crimson red almost black would reach a height of 100cm (3 feet 3⅜ inches). Fragrant. Continuous flowering. Prune in spring. Bio: Francis Dubreuil was a tailor from Lyon, who hybridized roses. He is the grandfather of Francis Meillanrd.

    Petales de roses opinion: This rose needs light shade, without which the sun might burn the dark red petals. This rose a tad lanky is a good plant for pot culture, despite its thorns.

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you David! "The best I can do" is a lot more than any of us are able to do down there. I have decent hopes of something worthwhile coming from your detective work. If the rose is sufficiently vigorous and healthy and if it was fortunate enough to land in a suitably supportive situation, it's possible it may exist somewhere. Those are too often rather rare coincidences but that's what happened to permit Climbing Yellow Sweetheart to be discovered. Marsh's Nursery was in Pasadena, not far from Glendale, where a lady made contact with Jimofshermanoaks on an "Over 50" Internet chat group. They discovered they both liked roses and she said he really should come collect her very old Cl. Cecile Brunner. He told her that wasn't something really rare, but was highly intrigued when she told him of her "yellow, climbing Cecile".

    The house was built in 1926. Carol and her folk medicine practicing doctor husband bought it from the original owner in 1960. Ralph Moore bred Cl. Yellow Sweetheart in the late forties and Marsh's Nursery introduced it in 1952. Someone obviously visited Marsh's early in the rose's history as it was reportedly very well established in 1960 when Carol and her husband purchased the house. It was enormous when Jim and I first viewed it nearly ten years ago. Kim

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, true-blue. Now all we can hope is that description is from someone who has actually studied the rose they are selling and not from looking it up on line or in a book. Historically, what's actually being propagated and the associated description are very often not the same. Think of Arena selling JACtan, picturing it in the catalog, yet using the Modern Roses description for the 1940s Butterscotch as one example. The guy growing and propagating the rose is seldom the one charged to write the description. Kim

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is another place I will email.
    http://friendsofrookwoodinc.org.au/contact

    David.

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://friendsofrookwoodinc.org.au/contact

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    FWIW, this description does not match the rose in commerce as Souv. de Therese Levet:

    "Antique rose, “Francis Dubreuil”, tea, Dubreuil, 1894. Rare color on a shrub rose. With double flowers, of a dark crimson red almost black would reach a height of 100cm (3 feet 3⅜ inches). Fragrant. Continuous flowering. Prune in spring. Bio: Francis Dubreuil was a tailor from Lyon, who hybridized roses. He is the grandfather of Francis Meillanrd.
    Petales de roses opinion: This rose needs light shade, without which the sun might burn the dark red petals. This rose a tad lanky is a good plant for pot culture, despite its thorns."

    Jeri

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes Kim it is somewhat frustrating. I can contact them and ask them directly, if it's ok with all. I checked their database, unfortunately they don't grow Barcelona.

    I hesitated posting GST's description of Francis Dubreuil, as mine is the 1994 edition of the book. As I understand Mr. Beales's ID occured in the late 80's early 90s. And this can be the description of "Barcelona". However, if anyone has the 1962 edition of Shrub Roses of Today (1962), and can confirm it is the same text, it could be the correct rose description and consequently the original rose at Mottisfont. FWIW, here goes:

    "One of the mysteries among roses is why this superlative, unfading, darkest-crimson variety has been neglected for almost a century. The shapely, fragrant blooms occur in midsummer and again later amid good foliage on a compact bush. 3’ x 2’. "
    Rosenzeitung, 1896, plate 3.

    Mottisfont's is the only listed garden that grows Francis Dubreuil, unfortunately they don't grow Barcelona. On a hunch, I checked Sangerhausen. They grow both! Back to square one?!
    FD at Sangerhausen, Barcelona

    What do you think?

    - Bob

    This post was edited by true-blue on Mon, Sep 1, 14 at 6:36

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's going to be funny when they grow the same rose as both, like the gardens and nurseries which have grown and sold (and continue to grow and sell) the same roses as Cornet/Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford/Grandmother's Hat; Irene/PGaA; Commander Gillette/Legacy/Basye's Thornless, etc. Even when the confusion is known, separate entries and separate plants of the identical variety are maintained as specific, different roses. That is really frustrating.

    I'd think much "license" was used in creating that 1896 illustration, Bob. I've not seen buds shaped like that on Barcelona and even for many Teas, they are rather "enhanced". Kim

  • Glenburn
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bob, for what is worth, I have not checked yet, but this is the one I think is our best chance,
    Roseraie du Val-de-Marne à l'Haÿ-les-roses

    Kim, to the best of your knowledge do we have any French members on RHA or do you know any ?

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, David, Pierre is in France. I've emailed you his full name directly. Kim

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    David, I checked the roseraie de la Marne. They had listed the rose as very fragrant. Yet, as Kim said, the one who grows and the one who lists isn't the same :-)

    Kim, it starts to feel like The Big Sleep....

    - Bob

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes sir, Bob, that it does! Welcome to the world of attempting to figure out past confusions! LOL! With quite a few, it's just best to give up and let others tilt at those windmills! Kim

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeri, you've touched on a point that is pretty troublesome. Some nurseries offering 'Francis D' are using the old-school description of the rose even though their plant differs from that description.

    Others are describing their plant accurately- the Tea rose 'Francis D' would not likely have his faint Tea fragrance touted as a selling point, but 'Barcelona' of course is a different story. But they're still saying that it's Tea Rose 'Francis Dubreuil', 1894.

    Reading the GST description above got me thinking about another point. He describes 'FD' as having a spring flush with later rebloom, but to me that sounds like you're really getting two shows a year. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting his meaning, but that does not have the same ring to it as "continuous flowering", as Petales de Roses puts it.

    HMF says 'FD', 'Barcelona' and 'SdTL' all "bloom in flushes throughout the season", but I wonder if there are differences in bloom frequency that could be useful ID marks? But comparing bloom frequencies of roses in different climates/ conditions is probably not worthwhile.

    I mentioned before that I was a bit skeptical of the writer who said only an expert could tell 'FD' and 'SdTL' apart. One reason is that George Knight, the Australian nurseryman who tried to convince his fellow Aussies that Tea roses were ideal for their gardens, made a point of saying he planted 'Perle des Jardins', 'FD' and 'SdTL' as a boy, and they were now large, floriferous shrubs.

    He then goes on to recommend six Teas that he thinks are particularly well-suited to being planted in public gardens. The only one of the original three roses that he recommends is our lad 'Francis'. To me, that only makes sense if there's something about 'FD' that he thinks is better suited for municipal plantings than the other two roses he'd just mentioned...

    Of course, he was just a nurseryman and rose hybridizer with four decades (in 1931) of experience growing roses- if he'd been a real expert, he'd have realized 'FD' and 'SdTL' were barely distinguishable...

    Virginia

  • true_blue
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Virginia it's all question of context.

    1) In the intro GST, laments how difficult it is to grow teas in England, which I didn't provide. The same rose will be 6 feet high or more in Australia / California etc.
    2) As I said, this could've been added later by the editor to concord with Barcelona masquerading as FD. This description should be checked with 1st edition, before the misidentification occurred.
    3) i made a mistake in my transcription and you made another one while recounting it. Spring vs. midsummer.

    Now compound it with all the possible mistakes/ contradictions we've read so far.

    THE ONLY WAY AS Kim said is to grow all the plants together and see which is which :-)

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bob, I've been looking at descriptions of 'Francis Dubreuil' offered by a number of nurseries, and am no longer surprised to see a photo that even I recognize as 'Barcelona' paired up with a recycled description of 'FD', the old Tea.

    What does surprise me is how many nurseries don't bother to use a decent photo to accompany the sales pitches. If they even use a photo, it's often blurry or overexposed or looks like it's scanned in from some 1960's publication...

    In other words, I don't really trust nursery photos or descriptions. Photos that people have taken in gardens- public or private- are of more interest to me.

    For example, if you do a search for Francis Dubreuil at Flickr, there are some photos that look a bit different to my not-very-expert eye. Several roses that I think were from private Italian gardens got my attention, but I would be interested in what others think. Link below...

    Virginia

    Here is a link that might be useful: photo search for 'Francis Dubreuil' at Flickr

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Or, DNA testing. While it wouldn't be able to tell you absolutely if one or the other was the original rose without documented examples of either one, it could tell you if something is of Tea origin or contained any of the European rose types. It could also tell you which of the sources grows which rose. It's much like the questions concerning Santa Rosa/Burbank. They're sister seedlings and DNA wouldn't be able to tell you which was which, but it COULD tell you which sources sell which of the two roses and whether those sold as the two roses are actually related, which they should be. Testing could also tell you if Pink Cracker is one or the other, which I suspect it is. Kim

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Now you understand what it's been like looking at photos of Sombreuil-NOT for decades and reading about this lovely "Tea". Knowing from just looking at the blamed thing it is a Wichurana climber.

    I think another telling fact is, the last documented availablility of the REAL FD in the US was the 1900 Dingee and Conard catalog. If Francis was so great, why did it disappear from commerce here a century or so ago? Theodosia Shepherd had a remarkable selection from her Ventura by the Sea nursery during her several decade operation. She is considered the creator of the California seed and cut flower industries and a very keen plants woman and rosarian. California received everything commercially available from here and Europe due to the extreme wealth the various industries generated, often within months to a year of their foreign introductions. If Francis was such an outstanding rose, why was is missing from Mrs. Shepherd's offerings? And, why did it appear to disappear after 1900? Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Ventura by the Sea

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim said, "I'd think much "license" was used in creating that 1896 illustration, Bob. I've not seen buds shaped like that on Barcelona and even for many Teas, they are rather "enhanced"."

    Thank you, Kim, for that. I've been wondering how reliable that illustration could possibly be, with those strange-looking flowers. It's tempting to treat those old illustrations as if they are the equivalent of photographs, but I don't think we'll ever find the original 'Francis Dubreuil' if we go around looking for that rose...

    But speaking of photographs, have you perchance had a glance at the 'FD' photos on Flickr? Most look like 'Barcelona', but some I'm not so sure about...

    Virginia

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've encountered VERY few artist's renditions of roses which actually resembled the reality of the plant. Some are close enough, but still no cigar. Yes ma'am, I viewed the Flickr images and agree that the majority appear to be Barcelona. Those which vary enough to warrant further attention COULD actually be climatic variations. I wish I had taken photos of the more extreme examples of that I have observed. Most were as unidentifiable as many people are when comparing freshly washed faces with "glamour shots". Kim

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If Francis was such an outstanding rose, why was is missing from Mrs. Shepherd's offerings? And, why did it appear to disappear after 1900? Kim
    =====

    I have rather a passion for Theodosia Burr Shepherd. Her nursery, after all, was JUST 18 miles from my home. I have facsimiles of two of her catalogs, and Francis Dubreuil is conspicuously absent.

    Unless, of course, this thing is Francis . . .

    Makes 'ya wonder, doesn't it???

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually, not really, Jeri. That Camulos thingy is some sort of old climbing HT. IIRC, didn't that also have a Damask type scent? Those colors just do not come from "Tea" lineage.Kim

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, you ask why 'Francis' disappeared from commerce in the U.S. after 1900.

    I will ask you when the HT craze got underway in this country? And is there a connection?

    I have a friend who's been growing camellias for more than 80 years, and has been a nurseryman for much of his long life. He loves the tried and tested old varieties, and also loves to grumble about customers who always want to know "what's new?"...

    As for left-coast nurseries, I wonder if 'FD' was just one of those plants that does well in some climates, but doesn't like your dry summers. Or your this or your that. Kinda like Jeri's 'Safrano'. Perhaps it did very well in the South, or it would have done well if more than a few folks could have afforded roses.

    I have wondered if perhaps 'Barcelona' isn't just a better plant, and deserves to be 'double-featured' in nurseries under its own name and that of 'Francis'.

    But then I think about Mr Knight in Australia, planting 'FD' as a boy, and still singing its paises when he's 52, with 40 years of rose-growing experience behind him. And with that 40-year-old 'FD' still going strong in his Homebush garden.

    Not too shabby, eh?

    Virginia

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand your point, Virginia and would counter it with, if Francis was such a rare color among Teas, why did Safrano and others which may not have been all that more vigorous as well as not all that unusually colored remained known and available and he didn't? The HT craze obviously hit them all, but the better growers; the ones more suited to where they were retained; the better scented; healthier and more unusual are usually the ones saved. "Novelty" has always been valued and has always sold. It's entirely possible FD was particularly well suited for Mr. Knight's climate and conditions. Look at Dame Edith Helen. It's also entirely possible Mr. Knight simply favored Francis for his own reasons. Who knows? I do think it is rather telling, seeing what has survived, what hasn't, and I can't help but wonder, "why"?

    I have no doubt Barcelona is very likely a superior garden plant in many places. I'd bet it's more vigorous and probably less likely to mildew. But, how satisfied would you be spending twice as much to get rarieties to find you've received the same plant, twice? Been there and it ticks me off royally. If I had KNOWN, I would have ordered something else. Had I wanted two of the same, I would have ordered two of them. You might say the seller simply didn't know. I guess I am a bit less "forgiving" over situations like that. If they had LOOKED at the plants and cared about integrity, surely some mention would have been made about their similarities? Vintage did that sort of thing regularly. If they questioned something, you knew it from reading their Big Catalog. And, you usually had an idea what they thought it might be and why. Kim

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was really joshin', Kim. And, yes. It did smell "Damask-y."

    :-)
    Jeri

  • roseseek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I kind of figured you might have been, but honestly, look at Lord Castlereagh and see if you don't see a resemblance. This thing could be something like that, Climbing Souv de Clos Vougeot, Climbing Night or even a few things whose names shouldn't be presented here due to their not being suitable for "modern conversation". It's definitely SOMETHING. Figuring out precisely what is the bug. Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Lord Castlereagh

  • jerijen
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was praying for some cooler weather, that the thing might survive until Fall. It very well may not.

    But I've always thought it might be Cl. Chateau de Clos Vougeot. Timing fits.

  • Vicissitudezz
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kim, I'm not convinced that the color was so rare- a search of Tea Roses at HMF shows quite a few that are called red or dark red, including FD's presumed ancestor, 'Souv. de David D'Angers'. The dark red color combined with the large flower probably was a real treat, though, and it sounds like the plant was a nice shape if grown in suitable conditions on suitable understock.

    I read the review below of 'Francis Dubreuil' from a 1906 issue of Gardening Illustrated Magazine, and felt that 'FD' was being praised for his beauty, but also subtly dismissed. The writer suggests that because 'FD' has a weak neck that the HT's 'Liberty', 'Warrior' and 'Richmond' are better choices for red flowered pot roses, and that 'Princesse de Sagan' is a better choice for mass planting of a red Tea in the garden. 'FD' is best grown as a standard for buttonhole flowers. Honestly, if I were in the market for a red Tea rose in 1906, I wouldn't have rushed out to buy 'FD' after reading this review...

    As for why 'FD' wasn't available in U.S. nurseries at the turn of the 20th Century, it may have been due to something fairly simple- poor marketing, problems with importation, plant losses due to weather/poor storage or some other factor(s) lost in the sands of time.

    Or you may be right to suspect that 'Francis Dubreuil' just wasn't a very good or useful rose, and American nurseries preferred to devote limited space to better/ more popular plants.

    Virginia

    Rose Francis Dubreuil
    Red Tea Roses appear very much out of place when mixed with other Tea-scented varieties at the exhibitions, but in the garden their value is justly appreciated. It is a question whether the Rose under notice of the variety Souvenir de Therese Levet is the better, but I think the place of honour is usually accorded to Francis Dubreuil. It is a lovely Rose, of exquisite shape in the bud, and of a rich dark amaranth-red colour, with a maroon shading. Its beauty is best displayed when grown in standard form. Here it will make a glorious head, if budded upon a thrifty Brier, and one may always be sure of a good button-hole flower from a tree of this sort. Neither this variety nor Souvenir de Therese Levet is seen to very great advantage as bush plants, their growth being rather too diffuse to be used as garden varieties, but upon a low wall they would be grand. Where highly-coloured flowers are appreciated several plants of Francis Dubreuil should be grown, considering the scarcity of good reds among the Hybrid Teas, and by good cultivation upon well-drained soil blossoms of great beauty may be obtained. Being a true Tea, it is as free flowering in autumn as in summer. The tropical weather of the last few weeks has been very favourable to this Rose, and I have been able to cut numbers of lovely blossoms. There is a beautiful reddish Rose named General Gallieni which is worth growing. It has a tinge of coppery-yellow at base of petals, and often pervading the centre petals, but its general effect is red. Betty Berkeley and Friquet are two other good crimson or...[bottom of the page is cut off]... but the best of all for general effect in the mass is Princesse de Sagan, which is as much a China as it is a Tea Rose. How effective are its velvety crimson blossoms, so quaintly twisted and so freely produced! Another Rose that has been splendid just lately is the Hybrid Tea Etoile de France. I have been inclined to condemn this Rose, but must hesitate in view of what I have lately seen. I am afraid that in a cool or wet season it would be a failure, but in seasons like the present it will be fine. As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted. Market growers have, for this reason, been obliged to discard the variety. Perhaps it is not wanted as a pot-Rose now that we have such beautiful reds as Liberty, Warrior, and Richmond. ROSA.