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| I've been smugly enjoying a deer fenced back yard, thinking how wonderful not to have to deal with the pests everyone else battles... But foxes have been crawling underneath & digging around my plants, destroying some. Yeah, foxes--I've seen them repeatedly. We don't have any chickens, I haven't used fish emulsion or other attractants, I suppose they're digging for grubs or worms. The drought is probably putting a lot of pressure on them. I have a shallow watering tray on the ground & have actually surprised one drinking from it one night. Any suggestions? They love the soft freshly watered soil I've labored to establish around the roses. I've laid chicken wire on the ground around some plants--helps some but they still dig. Spreading black pepper after watering helps some, but they still dig. I want to blast them. I probably need to lift the convenient water source, chink the holes under the fence, etc. Just surprised how persistent & bold the guys are after me repeatedly surprising them at night & chunking rocks. I'm getting resigned to sitting up one night with a pellet gun or trapping & relocating but any interim advice would be appreciated. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| It would be a sad world if there were no foxes--or deer or rabbits or....We are not the only species. I'm so sick of everyone's anthropocentrism. How the hell do we expect other creatures to live if we keep stealing their habitats. |
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| On the other hand, the habitats we are creating favors some species over others, and not for the better. The proliferation of "mesopredators" (foxes, skunks, raccoons, feral cats, etc.) is changing ecosystems and is something to which we in suburbia have to deal with or be able to accept the alternative. The solution is top carnivores (wolves, mountain lions, coyotes, etc.), but nobody seems to like having those guys around... Are use of pellet guns and trapping and relocating legal in Texas? (Neither are legal in California, except with special permission.) In any case, such tactics are unnecessarily cruel and deterrence is your kindest and best strategy (not too tough, actually -- think like a fox). |
This post was edited by catspa on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 23:24
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| It's painfully apparent that we've screwed-up the ecology beyond remediation, beyond hope. Welcome to the new normal. But today's normal won't be normal for long. It will get worse. How can it not, given the realities of present political/economic priorities? |
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| My family always used ammonia to keep animals out. Rabbits, foxes, all sorts of vermin with a keen sense of smell. Put some on the area where the foxes are entering your yard and see if it keeps them out. Foxes sometimes dig holes in order to have kits, but that's usually around spring time. Lemme know if it helps! Josh |
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| Catspa, Pellet guns are legal, trapping/relocating requires a permit. Red foxes are not a native species to Texas anyhow so I doubt running one or two out of a neighborhood garden will make the ecosystem collapse. They're smart animals, they'll adapt. Josh |
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| Yes indeed, it's the animals' responsibility to adapt. |
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| Josh, I'm not worrying about ecosystem "collapse". That's fairly rare, honestly, but I do see and analyse warped and altered ecosystems pretty much all day, every day on my job and try to figure out what, if anything, can be done. However, even undesirable species deserve a humane demise (don't get me started on glue traps for mice and other evil travesties of our oblivious convenience culture). Either shoot to kill or don't shoot at all -- pellet guns are a joke for anything larger than a rat or small rabbit. I have no problem with eliminating problem animals (up to and including deer) and especially non-native animals, but do it cleanly. |
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| I should add that externally-applied substances such as black pepper and such seem to not be that effective, generally (supposedly work for some, total bust for others, who knows?). I suggest fortifying your fence so that the foxes cannot go under it. I fight this battle with skunks, another great digger, all the time. Solid objects (rocks, tiles, logs) embedded at the lower fence line or added sections of fence buried underground have proven effective here. |
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| Foxes are always after my chickens. I consider it my responsibility to keep the chickens in safe coops and put them up right at dark. I have had several chickens snatched right before dark when they thought I wasnt around. Have tried to trap them in a humane trap [when I think about it which isnt often] but they [or whatever is in the trap] thrashes around and gets out. I would suggest getting a solar powered hot wire. Put the wire down low so it will discourage whatever is getting inside. You can turn it off in the daylight hours. Or pour sakrete in the holes and along your fenceline. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 10:13
| Sad that all thats left to eat for the foxes is grubs and worms. I've always liked foxes but I never had chickens here. My friend from grade school had a pet red fox he raised and it was the best pet. Like a dog but very quiet. I'd like to have a fox like that to live with me. Wild foxes are different I guess but I still feel sad that they are having it tough. Wish they'd all go over and eat up Jeri's gophers that are such a problem. Let them go dig them out I say. |
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- Posted by Kippy-the-Hippy 10 Sunset 24 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 12:19
| Would adding a skirt to the bottom of your fence work? We run about a foot of wire that has been bent and buried on the outside of our chicken coop. Think a L shape. In our yard, we use pavers to hold it down, making a sidewalk, so that any digging animal would have to start a few feet away and tunnel in. Not something most animals do. Of course this would mean being on the neighbors property unless your fence is back from the property line. You can bury the wire and then run a row of rocks (larger ones) on the outside base of fence. We leave water out for the thirsty varmints, but it might help for you to leave it where they will not dig in your garden. The best deterrent we have found, is to have the men pee on the perimeter...bet if you have a case of beer, a hot night and a good football game you could have your garden "treated" |
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- Posted by mariannese 5b (My Page) on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 13:00
| I don't mind our few foxes. I hope they will keep the deer in check by taking the young kids, a much bigger problem here because of the sheer numbers. But we have enough hares for the foxes to eat. I've stopped adding bone meal to planting holes for bulbs though. In March this beautiful healthy fox (too many of them are scabby) was sitting under our apple tree for half an hour, enjoying the sun like my husband and I on the balcony. It sits below a small slope. |
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| I like foxes because they kill baby groundhogs and rabbits. They are also pretty cool animals. I overhear periodic skirmishes after dark where a pair of foxes try to separate a baby coon from its mother. The momma coon makes a high-pitch bubbling sound that seems to mean, "Get on my tail and stay there," while the foxes circle and feint, and the coons try to get to a tree. As far as I can tell, the coons usually win. |
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| Ehemm, I said I "WANTED" to blast them, not that I planned to. I wouldn't have bothered to post for suggestions if I intended the easy (for me) solution. And using a pellet gun, pumped up only 2x3 times is a non-lethal harmless deterrent until I can do the long-term fix of plugging the fence. I've been shot on bare skin myself & it smarts but isn't dangerous. We provide water for wildlife--& they use it heavily--but I'm probably going to remove it from the backyard. These foxes aren't just killing ornamentals--they're into the food garden, too, & the plants & trees can't tolerate being dug around in this hot weather. But I'm going to try to keep the foxes from destroying our garden & other plants. I appreciate the ammonia & hot wire suggestions.
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| Check with your neighbors to see if voles and moles are problems. If they are the entre of choice of your foxes, you need the foxes. As long as your soil has lots of grubs, you will be losing rose roots even if you don't see the damage until canes start dieing. |
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- Posted by roseblush1 8a/Sunset 7 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 14:12
| I guess it would bother those living in the suburbs more to deal with what we think of as "wildlife". I cannot remember having to deal with skunks, possums, raccoons or anything larger when I was young and lived in a small bedroom community near a large city when I was young. The redwood forest was a five minute bike ride away from home. (I am certain there was plenty of wild life living in those woods.) Nor, did we have to protect our gardens from deer. That small town, like the one I am living in today, was also established in the mid 1800s. In the mountains where I live today, we expect to deal with wild life including problem bears, cougars, coyotes, and, of course, deer. But, I don't think it's as much of an "insult" to us because they have always been a part of this community. I do think the deer herds were probably smaller because there were more predators and they were a source of food for the table, but the wild life was as much a part of daily life as was protecting domestic animals and gardens grown for winter food from predators was a part of daily life. I have a friend who has a bear fishing in her pond. Another friend lost her chickens to another bear. Then there is the bear that got another friend's bee hives. They had the same kinds of problems over a hundred years ago in this area. One of the most beautiful sights that is now a part of the fabric of my life was when I was sitting outside all bundled up watching the first snow of the season in the light of a full moon one night a few years ago. My cat was cuddled in my arms and suddenly became alert and I saw a fox glide across the snow and almost float across the fence at the base of the slope at the back of my property and continue up into the trees. Oh, well. I think we will adapt. Smiles, |
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- Posted by floridarosez9 10 (My Page) on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 16:52
| Bluegirl, can you get water to the outside of the fence and keep a water source there? Also possibly keep some of the soil outside the fence wet? Then they wouldn't need to come in. I know exactly how you feel. We have nuisance armadillos. It's just like having a tiny tractor running around your garden all night. The devastation is astounding. I've sat up until the wee hours of the morning with a shotgun, but unlike you, my intent was to kill. They are impossible to trap, or I would do that. Before i gardened seriously, i would never have considered killing an animal. Armadillos are not native here, so I don't think three or four dead armadillos are going to matter. I don't think I could kill a fox because they're so beautiful, but I darn sure tried to kll the coyotes that were picking of my beautiful chickens. |
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- Posted by SouthCountryGuy SE BC 4b-5a (My Page) on Sat, Aug 31, 13 at 17:38
| Seems most people are forgetting that foxes are omnivores. Grubs, worms, roots, tubers, grass and berries are as much a part of their diet as meat. They obviously found something they like there. From protecting chickens in the past my only suggestion would be to strengthen your fence by either using the "L" approach, as suggested, or digging the wire down 24". I also suggest going to stucco wire instead of chicken wire. It is much stronger and if your going to go through the effort you may as well use a better product. Good luck SCG |
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| Yeah, I know the long-term solution is a tight fence. I can't figure out the attraction of the particular spots they're digging in. They are plowing around certain roses only. Digging the squash, green beans & eggplants--but not eating the veggies or fruit like coyotes do. Grubbing around certain peaches & plums but not the blackberries. That's why I'm just guessing that the improved soil we've developed over the last couple of years (over mostly rock-hard caliche) is starting to host worms or other yummies. We keep a couple of horse troughs & a low pan for water for the wildlife in the front yard so I'm going to pull the low water basin in the fenced back. The nearest creek & ponds are dry or drying up fast so the water is a big attraction. And I need to get on that fence before we get some 'dillos--they are the WORST. |
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| It doesn't matter how often I sweep the pavement around the garden areas by next morning the soil is disturbed in umpteen places because the gardens are the only moist areas on our property. I suspect the roadrunners and other birds are responsible for this, with perhaps some skunks and opossums, but fortunately they're too small to do any real damage. As for the bunnies and squirrels, I feed them! It's incredibly dry and barren here now, and if they had no food they would eat my roses and other plants which they hardly touch at all. We have set feeding times and they're fed at different places and times, but always outside the garden area. This would not work if there were no predators, but we have three feral cats in the neighborhood (who twice have left rabbit entrails at our front door), bobcats and many coyotes. I accept that these are prey animals but that doesn't mean they have to endure hunger and thirst on my property. The bonus is that they leave my plants alone. I don't wish to debate this practice with anyone, especially after having once been taken severely to task for feeding a squirrel we had hand-raised after we had set it free. This hurts no one and my plants are safe. This may sound like a crazy idea, bluegirl, but might the same idea work with your foxes? They're hungry so why not regularly put a cheap brand of dogfood where the foxes breach the fence and leave water for them. I imagine they're territorial and you won't have foxes from the next county visiting you. That might make your garden a lot less interesting since they have what they need to survive. Just a thought...... Ingrid |
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| That is a good idea & I might give that a shot, too. We already throw all vegetable peelings & old bread out. The deer tend to scarf that up at once. I hear that our neighborhood agreed a few years back that no one would kill the deer. Some neighbors have deer feeders that scatter corn on a regular schedule (& yeah, THAT'S sure to start rude arguments, too). It is pathetic to see how appreciated the water is in this area. The foxes & deer drink it of course, but the sheer variety of birds that are making it a regular stop is astonishing. I guess that's a trade-off for the wildlife--yeah, they have a small area fenced off but now they have unfailing tubs of fresh well water. Re. protecting chickens--& yeah, I feel a moral obligation to protect a helpless creature locked up in a pen--I never had a single casualty when I used 1/2" welded wire, doubled along the sides of the pen the birds roosted. I used concrete pavers inside, covered with sand & never had anything dig in. |
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| I'm sorry to say that it is generally considered a very bad idea to feed wildlife, despite our natural sympathy. Among other reasons, it can cause them to lose their natural fear of people, a fear which is beneficial both to them and to us. I can imagine a fox that has been fed dog food attempting to raid the dog food of a pet that is fed out of doors, as country dogs often are. That would not be a good thing for the pet. It also has the result of increasing the wildlife population, making the problem worse in the long run. Having said this I do like your idea of providing a water source outside your fence. I know I am not being consistent, but I cannot believe that merely providing water will increase the population. Think if it as replacing a stream that has been diverted. It may be enough to discourage the foxes, especially if in the meanwhile you are increasing the security of that fence. |
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| rosefolly, you make a good point and one that I hadn't considered since I would never dream of feeding a pet out of doors even though we do live in the country. Of course, people still do. Having said that, I would imagine outside dog food is already being eaten by any number of wild creatures, including foxes. If the foxes are not being hand-fed and the food is just being left for them, I don't think this would make them more comfortable around people. It might, however, increase the fox population, since a fox that is not dying of starvation will reproduce. This is one of those tricky situations, I'm afraid, where there is no really satisfactory answer, except to shore up the fence in some way. Ingrid |
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| Another thought, at least for the interim. What if you wedged very thorny rose canes in the areas where the foxes have been trying to get in? Their little paws might not like it. That's how I protect young roses against bunnies and other rodents, by making a circle of rose branches, sometimes mixed with rosemary branches, around them. Ingrid |
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| I tried that after reading about how it worked well for you. Had some stout thorny Champney's trimmings jammed around the mother plant & they just nosed them aside. Hmm, maybe some prickly pear pads? That's the thing that has surprised me--how dang determinedly they dig every night--they'll move the chicken wire about & somehow dig through it. You'd think I had buried something delicious under the areas they dig every night, but there is no bone, blood, fish or feather meal. No compost. Did use alfalfa tea in the spring. So I wonder if they're harvesting worms & such that have colonized as we have added good soil over the past years. There was nothing they COULD dig previously--just desert caliche, not even grass. They've been gradually expanding to other areas, but certain spots--under an apricot & under certain roses--they're rooting big holes that take a lot of effort. Oh, well, thank you for the suggestions--I sprinkled ammonia this evening--fingers crossed. |
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| We also keep food and water out for the critters we get, which are mostly birds and squirrels. :) So I would try to feed the foxes as well. We also routinely have deer jump the fence to drink from the bird baths. This awful drought is so hard for all living things, I am all for doing whatever can be done to help. |
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- Posted by poorbutroserich none (My Page) on Sun, Sep 1, 13 at 12:27
| I'm no help but when I think of my kids when they are hungry...let's just say a fox would likely stop at nothing to eat whatever it can find. I agree that a fence is really the only way to keep them out. I live in a very urban area and regularly see foxes and coyotes and possums. I was driving around the other day thinking about loss of habitat (saw a sign that said "fox with mange spotted, call Walden's Pond if seen) and wondered what's going to happen if we keep populating this planet... I mean, virtual reality may be the only "reality" we have for forests and such. Marian, that photo of the fox is so peaceful. I bet that was an amazing moment. I really enjoy watching the birds and butterflies in my garden, if I had a fox that would be wonderful (until it started digging up my roses). I think the water source outside the fence is a great idea too. Kinda like an watering hole.... Maybe you could adorn it with SP'd roses for the foxes? I know when I got back from a long vacation grasshoppers had decimated lots of my roses. But they are bouncing back. If they aren't eating the foliage maybe a chicken wire cage around the bases? Lastly, whatever YOU choose to do to take care of the problem is YOUR choice because fortunately we still have a bit of freedom. You mentioned trapping. We have a humane trapping company here. They just bait they cages (I've even seen the cages sold at PetSmart) with a can of food and then release them where they may have an easier time finding food. Susan |
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| Catch and release is illegal in many areas. It is here in California, though I notice that it is permitted in Pennsylvania, the state where I grew up. It has been found to spread disease among the animal populations. You may capture a mother with babies elsewhere in a nest. Also, the animal that has been moved would have to drive out another animal in its new territory, one of them likely to die. Finally, you might get the wrong animal. What would you do if you caught a skunk? The truth is, there is no place where they may have an easier time finding food. All the niches are already filled with other animals. Otherwise these ones would not be spending time so close to humans. I read recently that there is a population boom in fur-bearing animals because humans are wearing less fur. With the major predators reduced, there is nothing to keep populations in balance. That may be why foxes are coming so close to their natural enemies, people. Rosefolly |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Sun, Sep 1, 13 at 20:42
| I put some really large rocks at the bases of plants that raccoons dug around every night. The rocks were too heavy for them to move. The big males were pulling one gallon roses out of the ground or digging and tipping them over. Everywhere there is mulch and good soil, they dig. They pulled off my groundcover every night and I had to go at dusk and cover it with shade cloth and bricks and remove it every dawn until it got enough roots to resist the pulling by the raccoons. I had to do that for a month and a half. It was time consuming and tedious. They don't come as often now since they can't easily get to the places they were uprooting. They love to tip over pots and pull up any plants smaller than 1 gallon in size. We get coyotes from the drainage ditch looking to catch house cats at night. I always make sure my cats are in by dusk. I hope you can find a solution for your fox digging. I would put the veggies in a raised bed with a good fence and put large, heavy stones around anything else. The stones on shadecloth work well too. They cant get through the cloth but water gets through and you need less stones. |
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| bluegirl, what I actually meant was to jam a bunch of thorny canes in the areas where they're getting under the fence, but I suppose that would just prompt them to dig in other places. The sad fact is that housing tracts have taken over the foxes' habitat, and there is no place for them any more. It still comes down to human overpopulation, whether we're talking about Somalia or the outskirts of Scranton, Ohio. The animals are the losers now and before too long we'll all be the losers. Ingrid |
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- Posted by mariannese 5b (My Page) on Mon, Sep 2, 13 at 4:50
| Wild boars are becoming a much larger problem in Sweden than any other game. There are now 200000 to 300000 animals in the southern half of the country, a country the same size as California, and the number is increasing rapidly. There are no predators except man, either as hunter or car driver. Boars used to belong to the natural fauna but became extinct in the 18th century. They have been reintroduced by hunters who feed them all year round. A herd of wild boars acts like a plough in fields and gardens. |
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| Wild boars are also a huge problem in the U.S. and no one has figured out how to control them and reduce their numbers. They are terribly destructive animals and are going to become an increasingly severe problem. Unless they can figure out a way to keep them from breeding it's just another man-made disaster that affects the whole ecology of a region. I'm afraid I don't have a high opinion of hunters as a whole; they seem to be a very short-sighted bunch who care more about their own "recreation" than anything else. Ingrid |
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| Boars are not native either. Pretty dangerous animals. I avoid going hiking where they are known to roam. Many hunters are very responsible. I'm not a hunter myself, and no one in my family is, but I have known hunters who are true stewards of the natural environment. |
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- Posted by kittymoonbeam 10 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 2, 13 at 22:29
| I saw the boar traps in the Great Smoky Mtns National Park. They are serious about trying to control them before they endanger the fragile rare species of small animals and plants there. The best thing would be some sort of birth control because each litter is large and they have several a year. But they are so clever and hard to catch. It's strange to think that some species of fish in the ocean are being almost fished out but we cannot catch these destructive boars. |
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| The feral swine in the US are mainly derived from domesticated pigs. Eurasian wild boars were introduced by hunters in a few places, including the Snowbird Mountains of North Carolina, but they have interbred with feral pigs. Foxes, coons, and possums have probably lived around towns as long as there have been towns in America. What is new is the bear, deer, groundhogs, and turkeys invading the suburbs and cities. They used to avoid people because they were intensively hunted for their nuisance value or food value. Now they forage in gardens (or garbage & bird feeders) because there is plenty to eat and nobody is shooting at them. My region is around 80% forest and 15% farmland, so there is plenty of habitat for the varmints outside the city limits. |
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| The deer population in 1900 was around 500,000 and now is about 27,000,000. The population has exploded due to restrictive hunting practices designed to maximize deer population for hunters, but there are now fewer hunters, and top predators have been killed off, too, so I'm not surprised at the current outcome--deer preferring peoples' gardens to the forest, but then in the forest, they are overbrowsing tree seedlings and other plants. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I certainly don't think it's just the issue of suburban sprawl taking over deer or other critters' habitat. Diane |
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| Diane, you're right, that was oversimplifying the problem, although housing tracts have taken up vast areas that were once prime animal habitats where predators could still roam, which kept the prey animal population in check. It's complex, like most problems, and when it's gotten this out of hand, and especially where politics and powerful lobbies are involved, it's difficult to find a solution. Ingrid |
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- Posted by organic_kitten 7 (My Page) on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 22:48
| Raccoons are the nemesis at our house. We have two very old cats that live on our deck and leave only to eliminate. Their food is on the deck and we have to bring it in every night. Our lab mix has a barking good time when the raccoons arrive. DH is such a softy, he can't bear to actually hurt them, so he scares them off the deck. sometimes several times. They do dig up voles however, and I consider that a valuable service. kay |
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- Posted by melissa_thefarm NItaly (My Page) on Thu, Sep 5, 13 at 2:45
| I'm sympathetic to just about all the views that have been expressed on this thread. I'm vegetarian and dislike killing animals, and yet realize that something has to kill wild animals to keep their populations in check. I'm less consistent than some of you, as I eat dairy products and eggs and wear leather shoes. In my part of Italy we're seeing the mountains and the hills, once heavily populated, slowing emptying of human presence. This has been going on since WWII and the process shows no sign of slowing or reversing. It looks as though vast tracts of Italy could end up as essentially a wildlife preserve, with the human population stuffed in the plains, along the coast, and in low-lying valleys. We live at 1500 feet above sea level, five miles from a good-sized town, an hour from a medium-sized city, and from our house I can be in downtown Milan in two and a half hours. And yet living here is a practical struggle. Public transportation is scarce and getting scarcer, and gasoline costs about $8-$9 a gallon. Roads are narrow, steep, winding, and in increasingly poor repair; every winter we struggle with snow and ice. A daily commute is a heroic contest, as is getting children to school, since many children aren't served by school buses, and all the high schools are down in the cities. The jobs are mostly in the flatlands. The fewer people live in the hills and mountains, the more expensive services for them become. When we moved here boars were already a problem, in part because they weren't the native Italian breed, but a larger, rooting kind that was introduced by hunters. As others here have noted, they're prolific, destructive, and dangerous. A few years ago we began to see roe deer locally; now they're well established and devastating to our garden, as well as to agriculture. It's with a sigh of relief that I've been hearing in the last year that we now have wolves. These moved first into the high mountains, and, with rapidly expanding populations, have come down into the hills, and I've even heard that they've gone as far as the plain. People who keep livestock aren't happy about them, but they apparently are doing great work keeping the wild boars in check, and should also help with the deer. I wonder when bears will show up? Italy will need a change in priorities and a lot of innovative thinking before the current trend changes--money wouldn't hurt either--and change, innovation, and money are all in very short supply here. So I expect we'll continue on in the current fashion, and half of Italy will fill with ghost towns. I just hope we can continue getting our daughter to school. A whole world of traditonal knowledge, experience, and culture is being lost, but on the other hand the seeds of a new primeval forest have been sown: who knows what ecosystems will arise? It's all quite interesting. Melissa |
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