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catspa_z9_sunset14

Is this Aimee Vibert do you think, or?

I took these pictures today in Livermore. This is a rose stretching 30' or more along a fence on one end of an old bit of rural property (several acres) that sits like an island, almost surrounded by a new "high end" housing development. Can only see glimpses, but buildings on this property look like 1950s or 60s vintage.

Individual blooms are about 1" across and did have a moderate scent (keeping in mind it was 95 degrees and the middle of the afternoon at the time!) sort of like baby powder. I thought maybe it's a noisette, but I'm not very familiar with them and, it being either a very big one or a climber, all I can think of with my meager fund of knowledge is Aimee Vibert, which I've never seen in person that I can recall.... So, I would be grateful for help on the id -- it's a nice rose, I think.

{{gwi:306447}}

Bigger cluster:
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Faded flowers:
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New leaves:
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Prickles:

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North side of fence:
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South side of fence:

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Comments (37)

  • Campanula UK Z8
    9 years ago

    I am looking at mine right now (in a jug on my desk) and would say that although the leaves and blooms look a distinct possibility, my rose tends to grow with smaller clusters extended along the stem rather than clustered together like a corymb at the ends. The buds of AV are also very distinctive - small (1cm), perfectly circular raspberry ripple colourations .....and thorns are negligible........

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Catspa -- I have the bush, rather than the climber. It's part of the old one in the Sacramento City Cemetery.

    I'm going to donate it to the sale at the Heritage, because it doesn't open here. But here's what it looks like, if this is any help.

    Jeri

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks Camps and Jeri for your help. From your evidence, the lack of raspberry coloring on the buds in the photos I got are not consistent with Aimee Vibert. Photos on HMF also show raspberry tinges on the buds. The question, then, is if this is typical all over "my" plant? I need to go take a more careful look.

    Then there are the thorns. An entry in "The Old Rose Advisor" mentions sparse thorns for AV and you say the ones on yours are negligible, Camps. The thorns visible in the photos I took are not the worst I've seen, by a long shot, but I'm not sure they are "sparse" or "negligible". Again, I need to go make some observations of the plant as a whole on this specific point.

    The HMF pages are something of a hash on this variety. It seems the compact bush form is something of an American anomaly with the "normal" (1828) form of AV being something of a climber but then there is a "scandens" form (1841), that is somehow different??? Vintage said the climber was reputedly a poor bloomer but that the clone they were selling as "scandens" was a good bloomer. However, the "normal" form is listed and rated as a prolific bloomer. I'm assuming, Camps, that yours is not the petite bush form, but more of a climber? Does it bloom well?

    I can't say yet how good a repeater "my" plant is, since I've only recently ventured down into this neighborhood while going on walks as rehab after surgery last month. This property has certainly been an oasis to me, which is reached only after trudging along many blocks in the new development where Iceberg pruned with hedge trimmers is the main feature, with infrequent frissons created by relative bursts of color from "Flower Carpet" varieties.... It is a long fence, separating the house and other buildings in the center of the plot from a small vineyard. At various corners of the fence are either massive Fortunianas or Lady Banks and Cecile Brunners. Other kinds of climbers and shrubs along the fence have dried up, perhaps indicating that not much irrigation is going on in this terrible drought (the vineyard certainly looks that way) but the roses still look fine.

    I have to add that if this isn't Aimee Vibert, I'm stumped as to other possibilities. On HMF, it is mentioned that AV is sometimes thought to be a sport of Felicite et Perpetue, but I'm familiar with that variety and this doesn't quite look -- or smell -- like that one.

    This post was edited by catspa on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 11:45

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Catspa -- I think you should get cuttings of this, and propagate it.

    I forget exactly where you are, (Livermore?) but a lot of rose folks will be at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden on 9/27. I know some of the Sacramento City Cemetery folks are coming ... et al.

    If you could bring cuttings, they could get a good look-over.

    Do you know anything about the history of this property?

    Jeri

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I was definitely thinking about cuttings, Jeri, and I was planning on coming to the SJHRG event this year, finally, so that's a great idea.

    I don't know anything about the history of the property, yet, but I'll dig around a bit. It's current address may not be the address it had in the past, due to new roads and reconfiguration of parcels because of the new development --- oh joy.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Research is always fun!

  • lynnette
    9 years ago

    Forgot all about the millions of buds on the rose.

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    I am so disappointed to hear it does not open for you Jeri, I wanted that one

    And I am so glad you are coming to SJ Catspa. Looking forward to meeting you

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Kippy ... I wanted it badly. Now, I see I have the wrong conditions for it. Clearly, it needs to be further inland. I have a Great plant. I want it to be in a better situation.

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    Jeri, was it mildew or balling? Or just growing backwards?

    I wanted to put in in the same general area as where I have Cl Sdlm who is growing, albeit with some powdery looking leaves, but who is blooming well right now. I also have Simplicity over there who does well..but was unrecognizable as a rose in the main garden.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Very disease-free. Prolific producer of blooms.

    Blooms don't open here . . .

    In cool, dank weather, they ball.
    In hot, humid weather, they fry.

    I know this rose opens perfectly in Sacramento.

    Jeri

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Lynette, what beautiful pictures. If this rose ever had a fan shape, it is long gone. It is now a solid phalanx from the ground to the top of the fence and over for a solid 30'+ -- can't even tell if it's all one rose or several.

    I went to visit it again today. My nose was in better order, I guess (and it wasn't so hot -- only in the 80s) and the scent is definitely like that of 'Little White Pet' or 'Felicite et Perpetue'.

    I discovered that the property is that of the old Livermore Valley Cellars winery. Below is a photo I found of its original tasting room, which is one of the buildings that can be seen. LVC built a new tasting room further down the hill closer to its original address (before the new development road through the property) just a few years ago and then closed. I have yet to find any date of establishment for LVC, but the buildings on the property aren't ancient.

    A few pictures from today. The amazing thing is that there are a bunch of buds just developing on it, so it will be blooming for some time yet. I've yet to find any bud with a pink tinge.

    {{gwi:306457}}

    {{gwi:306458}}

    Old Livermore Valley Cellars tasting room:

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    OK. I'll go out tomorrow and get some Aimee Vibert and some Blush Noisette foliage for comparison.

    But in the meantime, you might consider tracking THIS guy down:
    http://www.sfgate.com/wine/article/Jim-Denham-the-Wine-Steward-Livermore-3797207.php

    He might be able to put you in touch with former property owners. The question is, does the rose predate the winery?

  • jannorcal
    9 years ago

    Wonder if it is the same variety as what is referred to as St Leonard's Noisette? It "fades" to blush - starts white then gets a blush tint with red veining.
    I have a couple photos of St Leonard's on HMF - taken of a found rose in a gold country foothill cemetery.

    Here is a link that might be useful: St Leonard's

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    Think they would miss a few canes? Maybe in person at SJHRG it will tell Jeri who it is

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Maybe, Jannell -- I know the plant you mean. Mary V. Tower. These blooms look fuller. (Or, maybe it looks better now that it has some care?) Anyhow, see "St. Leonards" below.

    I'll post leaves from our Aimee Vibert . . .

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Here is a leaf, with stipule close up, from our Aimee Vibert. (I think this plant needs a good hose-washing!)

    This seems quite different to me, from the leaves posted.

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Here are some flower part details from what I've taken to calling the "Cellars" rose. The pedicels are glandular (and give off a scent) but the leaf stipules are not glandular, though having some fringe. The stipules on your 'Aimee Vibert' looks almost glandular, Jeri, and not like this rose, I think.

    It occurred to me that the another rose I am familiar with that has a flower scent like this one is an Ayrshire I have, "Jekyll's Own Rambler", but that, of course, is a once-bloomer.

    The blooms on this "Cellars" rose don't have the ribbony petals that "St. Leonards" seems to have, along with having more petals I think, Jannell, though the overall look is the same.

    I'll definitely be moseying over to the Wine Steward to see Mr. Denham, if possible, Jeri, and yes, Kippy, it's a large, large plant.

    {{gwi:306459}}

    {{gwi:306460}}

    {{gwi:306461}}

    {{gwi:306462}}

    {{gwi:306463}}

    {{gwi:306464}}

    {{gwi:306466}}

    I did find one cluster today with a bud with a small carmine spot on it (upper left), but as Aristotle said, "one swallow does not a summer make...". Note the ants -- they are all over these sweet flowers.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Oh, LOOK LOOK LOOK at your stipules! You're right. No glandular structures there at all. This looks Multiflora to me! Let me see if I can find something similar to show you!

    SEE BELOW:
    This is a stipule from a Found rose, from the grave of a woman named Harriet Gill. It is argued whether this is/is not 'Laure Davoust.' See the resemblance?

    You have LESS of this fringing, but this is no pure Multiflora.

    It's REALLY NEAT!

    OH YES! Anything you can bring with you to the Open Garden. There will be several people there who have more technical knowledge than I do.

    And I think your "Cellar Rose" needs to be propagated.

    I hope you can find that guy!

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I was wondering if it was "fringey" enough to indicate multiflora, Jeri. I am also wondering what a spring flush looks like, considering how relatively nicely it is blooming now -- too bad I only started doing these walks recently!

    I will definitely work on talking to the owners. Fortunately I'm still on leave following surgery and have some time for this, for once. I'm hoping they know where it came from, or something about its history, not to mention that I will want to ask about taking pieces for cuttings.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Well, I'm no multiflora expert -- but it looks like that to me. That's why I hope you'll bring it to the Heritage, so more knowledgeable folks can see it.

    About cuttings.

    No one around? Go get them.
    THEN ask!

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Sad news. Noticed yesterday that some of the canes on this plant carry bacterial galls at the nodes (pics below). Only some canes and, to a noticeable extent, mostly the distal ends of canes hanging closest to the ground. I didn't see galls on canes at the top of the fence with cursory inspection, but my understanding is that if there are galls, then bacteria are distributed system-wide through the plant. Is that correct?

    This plant seems to be doing just fine but, if infected, probably not a good idea to bring material from the plant to SJHRG, I imagine? I did some reading on galls but am now more confused than when I started, since there seems to be benign variants of Agrobacterium tumefaciens as well as the pathogenic one that, on crowns of young plants, is the kiss of death. ??? Do they all make galls?

    Well, anyway, Livermore Valley Cellars, was established in 1978 on a 33-acre existing vineyard bought by Chris Lagiss in the 1950s. He was a scientist at the national labs here; winemaking was sort of a hobby that sequed into a small business but the wines were well regarded. He died in 2008 at the age of 92 and the vineyard closed in 2010. Its re-opening is apparently awaiting things to be sorted out among the heirs. I made contact with one of them briefly, will talk more with her later, maybe find out some earlier history.

    Final photo is a great one of the fringed stipules on a new cane. Yes, I would say those are fringed! It's still got some beautiful clusters on it, even after several days of temperatures over 100. Agree totally that it is a really different, very cool rose.

    {{gwi:306467}}

    {{gwi:306468}}

    Fringed stipules:
    {{gwi:306469}}

    This post was edited by catspa on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 21:34

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    I'm no expert -- and I hope you'll run this by Baldo Villegas -- but I'm thinking that's maybe not agrobacterium tumefasciens.

    It looks more like gall wasps. Check it out (see below) and run this by Baldo. If you don't know how to contact our resident "Bug Man," send me a private message.

    And I have NO idea whether that is transmissible. Baldo would know. Maybe others here do.

    Jeri

    Here is a link that might be useful: Gall Wasps

  • Kippy
    9 years ago

    Looking up galls on roses I found this:

    How Galls Get Started:

    Bacterial galls are tumors caused by a critter called Agrobacterium.
    Crown galls, those tumors which attack the root crown of the plant near the soil's surface, are produced by A. tumefaciens.

    Cane and stem galls are produced by A. rubi.

    Stem galls are the easiest to notice and remove. Prune away infected stems and canes and spray with A. radiobacter to prevent reinfection.

    Note: A. radiobacter will not eliminate existing galls. It is a naturally occurring biological control bacterium - the natural counterpart - to A. tumefaciens and A. rubi.

    Since it seems to be such a big plant and not all covered, maybe take some cuttings from the other side and try and root someplace that does not have a lot of susceptible plants? Also sounds like the cane gall is not as bad or the same and crown and root gall and can be trimmed and removed.

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, Jeri -- sent you an email. Kippy, that sounds hopeful -- I couldn't make out if cane gall was caused by the crown gall bacteria or not from what I was reading (not to mention the ones caused by bacteria vs ones caused by wasps), but hopefully Baldo can illuminate.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    UPDATE:

    Baldo Villegas tells me he has seen this, long ago. It was tested, and it is his recollection that this is not agrobacterium tumefasciens. But he does not have details.

    He recommends that it be tested.

    Jeri

  • organic_tosca
    9 years ago

    Your description of the fragrance sounds right to me, although I wasn't reminded of baby powder, but of some old-time bath powder or talcum powder of one of my older relatives. Some people don't like it, but others love it.

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Well, I think I may be onto the ID of this rose. The tip-off came this morning when I took a slightly different route on my walk through the new development.

    First I saw this:
    {{gwi:306470}}

    then this:
    {{gwi:306471}}

    and this.
    {{gwi:306472}}

    Looking behind the hedge I saw this:
    {{gwi:306474}}

    So here's the rose (or extremely similar, including scent) at a house that is less than 10 years old about 3 blocks away. It's planted as a ground cover, but a few long canes have escaped and become vertical in the Escallonia hedge and it was obvious, on examination, that the plants have been hacked back mercilessly to keep them as groundcover in a tight space and that their natural tendency seems to be climbing.

    There were, of course, no tags on the plants that I could see. Searching the internet ("white groundcover climber cluster rose"), I came across a photo from "A rose garden in Sardinia" (morrisnoor) and that led to 'Alba Meillandecor' (1986), which is what I think it may be.

    It looks like an old rose because it is essentially a hybrid of R. sempervirens x R. wichuraiana. The fringed stipules would be from R. wichuraiana, I guess, per a note on a photo by Patricia Routley. The scent would be R. sempervirens. It has been sold by Armstrong Garden Centers, one of which we have not far away and is also sold as 'Alba Meidiland', plants of which I think I have actually seen around here in nurseries.

    The fence it sits on at the old Livermore Valley Cellars is not so old, within the last 10 years (very likely built when the development went in), so I can imagine this rose being planted when the fence was built (will ask). HMF describes it for beds or as a ground cover, but the photo of it climbing an oak tree in Italy shows it's a climber, not to mention its background.

    I didn't see galls on the plants I saw today but, Jeri, looking back in Baldo's email about where he had seen galls like these (which are apparently rare) some years ago, he says that the name of the rose was "White Mellandina or something like that". (!!!!) That practically clinches it for me. What a convergence of clues all of a sudden.

    As a number of people say in the comments section for Alba Meillandecor on HMF, it's a very nice rose.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Alba Meillandecor on HMF

    This post was edited by catspa on Mon, Sep 15, 14 at 23:33

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Excellent detective work! Congratulations!

    Jeri

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    With lots of great help here in sorting it out, Jeri! I now see the reason why my advanced searches on HMF never panned out: I looked for a climber and "climber" isn't used as a descriptor for this variety. Considering its background and behavior, that's a little odd...

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    It may not have such an overwhelmingly vigorous habit everywhere. It apparently likes California. A lot!

    BTW, when I described the plant and the location to Baldo, he said he's pretty sure this is the same plant he saw 20 years ago!

    Jeri

  • annesfbay
    9 years ago

    Wow! What a fun thread to read--an excellent mystery story. Beautiful rose too.

    I'm confused about the galls, however. Wasp or bacteria? Fatal or just unattractive?

    Thank you, Anne

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    Anne, Baldo no longer has his notes on this rose -- from 20 years back.

    It is his recollection that the state lab said it was not Agrobacterium Tumefasciens. That they did not, or could not, say WHAT it is.

    It IS possible to submit a sample to the state for testing. Me, personally, if I didn't care to propagate the rose, I might not bother. But YMMV . . .

    I do admit that NOT finding that out leaves the story incomplete.

    Jeri

  • catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    "Small world", as the saying goes, isn't it, Jeri? That this may be the same rose plant Baldo was recollecting is amazing.

    It's apparently more aesthetic than pathogenic I think, Anne. There are galls up to an inch across on some of the old dead wood of this rose along with galls on a minority of the living canes, but two roses it is tangled up with and growing through and around (Cecile Brunner and a Lady Banks of some sort) showed no sign of galls. This plant seems to be thriving -- lots of new, healthy-looking growth and buds -- looks better, in fact, that the sorry, hacked specimens in the mow-and-blow yard a few blocks away that have no galls!

    It would be nice to have a name for the microbe (if science now has that capacity) but as I am neither owner or owner's agent, I would hesitate to send samples of it to the CDFA myself (the service is free, by the way, and I sometimes send specimens from my field work to their plant taxonomists to confirm and document noxious weed identifications). I do have a piece or two as cuttings and if they take it will be interesting to see if they develop galls also.

  • jerijen
    9 years ago

    YES! I would be MOST interested to know if the cuttings develop these odd galls.

    Jeri

  • annesfbay
    9 years ago

    Interesting. Thank you, Anne