Yesterday I saw my first Rosa centifolia parvifolia at a garden show. Must be the smallest OGR I've seen with small leaves and small flowers, a true mini.

As I recall, you are in Florida. When checking out your choices on HMF, go with the higher end of the size.

I presume you are aware that the Green Rose does not get flowers, but rather a little button of sepals. Only real rose people ever notice it. Everyone else just assumes it isn't blooming. But it does stay small.

Comtesse du Cayla is wonderful. I've heard it can get large, but mine stays under 4'. Archduke Charles is also good. Old Blush is not small.

Neither Lady H nor Devoniensis is small.

Bourbons, hybrid perps and hybrid teas blackspot easily, but your sizes are okay.

Some easy-to-find suggestions: Perle d'Or, Clotilde Soupert, Marie Pavie. St Leonards/aka Jeanne d'Arc is a lovely small noisette, about 5'.

You might include Gruss an Aachen 1909

Don't know how rigid you want to be with "old" or where your dividing line is but I have Gabrielle Privat (1931) from Antique Rose Emporium and I love this rose. It cluster blooms constantly with blooms lasting a long time on the bush. I didn't see any polyanthas on your list but they are wonderful in a small garden as they bloom constantly, don't spot and even if sheared back just come blooming again.
Verdun is a gorgeous one (1918).
Perle d'Or and Clotilde Soupert are high up on my favorite list...although that is like choosing between children.
Felicia,(before 1926), a hybrid musk, is an amazing rose. Just a really beautiful bloom machine. I love her so much I have ordered more HMs. So fragrant and graceful although my blooms are not the pink shown on HMF but that could be due to soil or the sunny spot she has.
I have lots of the roses on your list but haven't owned them long enough to comment.
I have been really shocked this summer at the lack of spotting on my HPs in their own raised bed. It has very rich soil, receives morning to mid day sun only and I keep it well watered. They are all thriving without much spot at all (hope I haven't jinxed myself) but they are young...
Someone here recently stated the old teas grown in hot sun do not grow as large as those grown with a bit of shade.
The nature of growing roses means that I have to be flexible, lower expectations, and accept a certain lack of control.
Growing roses is an art, not a science and just like everything else your mileage is going to vary.
When I consistently hear good things about a rose from growers in different zones I make a note and try it here. So far, this has been a good method.
If I see a rose I absolutely love (for fragrance or color) and it has a reputation for spot or mildew or weak growth I order it anyway--more often than not the reputation is accurate.
You are in 7b which is what I consider my zone since I have a fenced garden in an urban area.
Mike Shoup of the Antique Rose Emporium has a number of books on old roses. I strongly recommend them as they are full of accurate and important information. He provides information on eventual sizes of roses and optimum pruning height. "Landscaping with Antique Roses" is a great one.
Best of luck and thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Susan

I understand Centifolia rose perfume was what was used for French perfume and there were fields of them at one time in Southern France. Petite de Hollande is a small centifolia that always used to be recommended for smaller gardens and was easy to find. It has small leaves, too. I still remember the divine wafting fragrance of the specimen at the New York Botanic Garden. I don't know why Petite de Hollande, though listed by RVR, never seems to be unobtainable these days. Could it be that it is best propagated by grafting?

Here is a link that might be useful: Petite de Hollande aka Pompon des dames at Helpmefind

You might consider that an ideal old rose for a small garden could be a climbing rose. In this situation you would want to avoid the house eaters. Climbing roses can be trained on a fence or other structure. There they take up very little ground space while adding to the three dimensional aspect of the garden. As a bonus, many climbing teas repeat well.

Rosefolly

You could add the found rose, Romaggi Plot Bourbon (aka Angels Camp Bourbon) to the list. It's a short one at 2-3 ft.

La Reine can be taller or clipped shorter. It reblooms regardless. With less water, it is shorter and with generous water will be shoulder tall. I like it as a compact good bloomer and fine fragrance rose. Another one like this for me is Baronne Prevost although that may be an incorrect name now.

I second Romaggi Plot Bourbon as being small although I've only grown it for three years. However, the fact that it's only 2 x 2 at most would seem to indicate that it's a petite rose.

My Souvenir de la Malmaison and its sports, and another Bourbon, Madame Dore, have all stayed small, but my climate is very hard on roses, being a heat trap with low humidity, and the size estimate might be very different from what others might experience. I haven't pruned any of mine because they didn't need it, except for a little cutting back where they were impinging on other roses.

Ingrid

I meant "never seems to be obtainable" -- arggh. I just saw a website that said Pompon des dames used to be grown in greenhouses and sold to women and girls to decorate their clothing with. Perhaps for balls and parties?

Lady Hillingdon is a Tea, not a China and even the bush form grows very large in California. Not really appropriate for a small garden.

Many roses that stay small in colder climates can get very large in warmer climates.

Diane

Maggie can get very big, too.

My Madame Dore has stayed at or around 4 feet tall and three feet wide for YEARS. Madame Cornelisson is about as wide as tall, 4 feet both ways and I have had her 14 years. And yes my Romaggi Plot Bourbon is also small never getting much over two feet tall and wide after seven years here.

Bermuda's Spice has stayed quite small foe me, but then it's another of my roses in full baking sun which keeps them more compact.

Thanks for your suggestions. I have added more roses to the list and have taken a few off. I want to avoid spreading and suckering roses.

Does Petite de Hollande spread or sucker? It is listed as a hybrid Gallica.

Please suggest any well-behaved ORG climbers. I want to avoid house eating roses.

Thomas, I have two Archduke Charles next to a Souvenir de la Malmaison. The SDLM is very wide, now approaching 6 ft AFTER pruning. The AC's are very upright and take up very little ground space, maybe 3'x3'. My two Frances Dubreuils have stayed less than 3', but they are only about 3 years old. I love them - they make a great bush as does Ducher. You might want to try that one if you need a white rose. The AC's don't take up any more space than the FD's, and I like their height. Lou

Lou_texas, Ducher is a beautiful rose. I appreciate any other suggestions for small Old Garden Roses (OGR).

Petite de Hollande suckers, but not as badly as some other Once blooming OGRs do on their own roots.

I have a fairly small garden and have been researching roses that will fit here. It was a bit heartbreaking to find I didn't have space for all the big lovelies, especially the tea roses. I have several of the listed roses but they are still young. I would suggest Fabvier and Hermosa, both China roses. Rose de Rescht, a Portland, is growing strongly here in California but I'm not sure how it would grow in Florida. Leezun4u suggested Gruss an Aachen, which I also have and several other early Hybrid Teas - the Radiance clan, Barcelona, Ophelia, Snowbird. Not technically OGR but I really like them along with Polyanthas for my smallish garden.

Hey Brenda -- I love the Radiance clan, too. And Snowbird! She's a WOW!

"Louise Ave. White HT," which was found in the San Fernando Valley is a FANTASTIC rose, and it is probably Snowbird.

Jeri

"Louise Ave. White HT"

Thanks for the photo Jerijen that rose is lovely.

Thanks for the photo Jerijen that rose is lovely.

Thanks for the photo Jerijen that rose is lovely.

This is a wonderful thread. I must clip the list and pin it on my bulletin board. I second the polyantha suggestion. They are lovely and stay (mostly) smaller for me. Pat Henry suggested a few additions to my garden this year that others mention above but they are still in the pot ghetto so I can't comment on mature size. (Clotilde and also Anne-Maria Montravel.) I have had Marie Pavie for a while (love her) and Borderer is a sweet very small rose in my garden. The Bourbons do well for me too and several years in they are all manageable in size. I have Mystic Beauty, Souv. de St Annes and one other Souv that escapes me at the moment. Also I have Edith de Murat but she is still young. I'd like to add some climbers.

Thanks Belle_va for the suggestions. I will search all of them. (Excuse the duplicate posts. It looked like the post did not go through.)

Poorbutroserich, I bought the Michael Shoup Book: "Roses in the Southern Garden." Good reading and ideas. Thanks

We have quite a few of these roses in the Heritage Rose Garden (Sacramento Old City Cemetery). I have not actually pruned any of them (I have mostly pruned HPs), but I did have Devoniensis for two years and then donated it to the cemetery. It takes quite a while to really get going, but everyone says it eventually gets pretty big. It's lovely, of course. We tend not to prune the Teas unless we have to, as many of them don't like it - but of course we have quite a bit of room here. I'm afraid most of them get big. I think that Ducher and Westside Road Cream Tea stay small, and I know for sure that White Pet does.

All the roses you have listed (and that we have) are wonderful. I commend your taste!

Laura

Jeri, that's lovely. I hope my Snowbird is as nice as your Louise Ave HT.

Right now my Cecile Brunner, Marie Pavie and Marie Daly are all blooming and they look and smell heavenly. I think if I was really limited in space I would be happy only having CB and MP.

Thank you Organic_tosca for your practical advice based on your experiences. What tips you can share for pruning HPs?

Brenda_l_, I am researching Cecile Brunner, Marie Pavie and Marie Daly for the list. I appreciate all suggestions. I am trying to get a list of beautiful, fragrant, and drama-free roses (no suckering, no house eating, no rooting too easily, not too disease prone, etc.). So that a novice or veteran gardener can simply enjoy the garden and just do normal routine maintenance and not feel like the roses are a burden.

La France for me is a slow grower, more tall than wide, but a good bloomer whose roses do not fade or get smaller in the heat. My older one is about 3 years old and is about 2 x 1.5 feet. I suppose it could be the dry heat, but I love the flowers and fragrance enough to get a second one.

Ingrid

Thomas, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I refer to it constantly. It is a great reference. This a great thread. I, too, would appreciate HP pruning advice as the HP bands I received in May are now 4 x 3!
Susan

How abt. Slater's Crimson-Belfield...it is really tiny but tough...and a real oldie!.....sally

We've kept 'white pet' at 2 1/2 feet tall by 3.3 feet wide for several years. I love its growth habit, it makes a very graceful border plant.
Westside Road Cream Tea' at just under 4' tall by c. 3 feet wide for 3 years, the mother plant at Vintagegardens.com matured at c. 4.5' tall by c. 3.25 feet wide. I grow it with purple verbena.
At Morcom park amphitheatre of roses, a local rose park they've kept a bed of 'Lady Hillingdon' at 4.5 feet tall by slightly less wide for more than twenty years. It may be a genetic H.T. which is why I think it can stand being pruned back every winter by one third.
Comtesse Emmeline de Guigne' at the same rose park has been kept at 4' tall by nearly as wide for 20+ years. Roguevalleyroses.com sells it, a lovely peach/pink Tea rose. It's my favorite pink and peach Tea and it has an alluring fragrancer.
Etoille de Lyon' a yellow Tea rose that has a delicious scent; espaliered at the same garden to 5.5 feet tall, and it is arching gracefully to about a 7' spread, with a size of c. 3 feet from front to back
Catherine Mermet' has been kept at c. 4' tall by 2.5' wide for several years. It is in partial shade which is why I think it is growing slowly.
Souvenir de la Malmaison' planted in a trio, each kept to 3 feet tall by nearly as wide.
'Rose des Rescht' 3' tall by c. 2.75 feet wide for several years.
white 'Maman Cochet' (bush form) at 5.5' tall by nearly as wide for 5+ years.

Where I used to live, we fit in 180 rosebushes in a rose garden that was only c. 45 feet long by 35 feet wide;
by espaliering
-white 'Lady Banks' on a low 4' tall fence, which worked far better than it sounds.
-climbers such as Sombruiel' on the house, espaliered narrow to c. 3 feet from the house outwards and let spread to c. 20 feet high by 7' to 10 feet wide.
-espaliered 'Mutabilis' in front of a fence so it was almost half its usual thickness from front to back, by 8 feet wide by 7 feet tall.
-self pegged Grandmothers' Hat, to increase bloom production. This is a versatile plant, it can be limbed to appear as a standard rosebush, grown as a climber, or as a shrub.

espaliering reduces a rosebushes size by nearly 50%, and when tiered in a garden it gives a lovely effect with shorter rosebushes in front.
I've tamed ' Mermaid by espaliering it in my backyard to let it spread 15 feet wide but only 3.5 feet from front to back.
-tree roses, standards or limbing a rosebush will allow room for roses like white pet to be planted beneath it. I saw hortico is offering Mme. Hardy as a standard this month; sept. 2013.
My mother grew Mlle. Cecille Brunner' (the original small form of the rosebush) as a limbed plant, by removing the lower lateral canes she had one bare "trunk' like cane which rose to a canopy that was c. 4 feet tall by 2.75 wide, beneath it were leafy purple violets, grape hyacinth with white anenomes to each side of the rose. it was my favorite rose in her garden.
- a few H.P.s can give a big visual "bang" and many of the pink H.P.s are wonderfully and richly fragrant. (self pegging is done by looping an upper cane out and attatching it to the lower third of the plant, this takes less space than pegging it to the ground but it also increases the bloom production by more than 200%. H.P.s that have long whippy canes are good for this; Ulrich Brunner, fils' , Arrilaga' Grandmothers Hat' for instance.

I like small china and Tea roses up front for a border, with white pet, because nearly all of the roses in those classes have excellent re-bloom.

Best wishes for beautiful roses,
Lux.

P.S,
F.y.I.espaliering is done by pruning on a vertical plane; you might imagine placing a large sheet of glass,
-held vertically
-just in back of the crown of a rosebush
- and then pruning off all of the canopy that is in back of that imaginary plane of glass.

We've kept 'white pet' at 2 1/2 feet tall by 3.3 feet wide for several years. I love its growth habit, it makes a very graceful border plant.
Westside Road Cream Tea' at just under 4' tall by c. 3 feet wide for 3 years, the mother plant at Vintagegardens.com matured at c. 4.5' tall by c. 3.25 feet wide. I grow it with purple verbena.
At Morcom park amphitheatre of roses, a local rose park they've kept a bed of 'Lady Hillingdon' at 4.5 feet tall by slightly less wide for more than twenty years. It may be a genetic H.T. which is why I think it can stand being pruned back every winter by one third.
Comtesse Emmeline de Guigne' at the same rose park has been kept at 4' tall by nearly as wide for 20+ years. Roguevalleyroses.com sells it, a lovely peach/pink Tea rose. It's my favorite pink and peach Tea and it has an alluring fragrancer.
Etoille de Lyon' a yellow Tea rose that has a delicious scent; espaliered at the same garden to 5.5 feet tall, and it is arching gracefully to about a 7' spread, with a size of c. 3 feet from front to back
Catherine Mermet' has been kept at c. 4' tall by 2.5' wide for several years. It is in partial shade which is why I think it is growing slowly.
Souvenir de la Malmaison' planted in a trio, each kept to 3 feet tall by nearly as wide.
'Rose des Rescht' 3' tall by c. 2.75 feet wide for several years.
white 'Maman Cochet' (bush form) at 5.5' tall by nearly as wide for 5+ years.

Where I used to live, we fit in 180 rosebushes in a rose garden that was only c. 45 feet long by 35 feet wide;
by espaliering
-white 'Lady Banks' on a low 4' tall fence, which worked far better than it sounds.
-climbers such as Sombruiel' on the house, espaliered narrow to c. 3 feet from the house outwards and let spread to c. 20 feet high by 7' to 10 feet wide.
-espaliered 'Mutabilis' in front of a fence so it was almost half its usual thickness from front to back, by 8 feet wide by 7 feet tall.
-self pegged Grandmothers' Hat, to increase bloom production. This is a versatile plant, it can be limbed to appear as a standard rosebush, grown as a climber, or as a shrub.

espaliering reduces a rosebushes size by nearly 50%, and when tiered in a garden it gives a lovely effect with shorter rosebushes in front.
I've tamed ' Mermaid by espaliering it in my backyard to let it spread 15 feet wide but only 3.5 feet from front to back.
-tree roses, standards or limbing a rosebush will allow room for roses like white pet to be planted beneath it. I saw hortico is offering Mme. Hardy as a standard this month; sept. 2013.
My mother grew Mlle. Cecille Brunner' (the original small form of the rosebush) as a limbed plant, by removing the lower lateral canes she had one bare "trunk' like cane which rose to a canopy that was c. 4 feet tall by 2.75 wide, beneath it were leafy purple violets, grape hyacinth with white anenomes to each side of the rose. it was my favorite rose in her garden.
- a few H.P.s can give a big visual "bang" and many of the pink H.P.s are wonderfully and richly fragrant. (self pegging is done by looping an upper cane out and attatching it to the lower third of the plant, this takes less space than pegging it to the ground but it also increases the bloom production by more than 200%. H.P.s that have long whippy canes are good for this; Ulrich Brunner, fils' , Arrilaga' Grandmothers Hat' for instance.

I like small china and Tea roses up front for a border, with white pet, because nearly all of the roses in those classes have excellent re-bloom.

Best wishes for beautiful roses,
Lux.

P.S,
F.y.I.espaliering is done by pruning on a vertical plane; you might imagine placing a large sheet of glass,
-held vertically
-just in back of the crown of a rosebush
- and then pruning off all of the canopy that is in back of that imaginary plane of glass.

Luxrosa, you and all the other contributors have made this thread very valuable by providing tips, photos, and opinions (real life information) about small Old Garden Roses (OGR). This is a Blessing.

Thank you Saldut, Slater's Crimson China is a rose that I have skipped over many times. But now I am giving it a closer look.

Luxrosa great information on how some roses can be kept a smaller size. Will the gardeners at Morcom park amphitheatre of roses share their tips, or make videos on this?

Some good, smaller, old roses for me have been:
Marie Pavie
Marie Daly
Gruss an Aachen
Pink Gruss an Aachen

And my Reine des Violettes is really not that large of a rose, even though it's about 12 years old, because it's easy to prune and keep inbounds. Of course being thornless helps.

Randy

Thanks your list Randy and for mentioning that Reine des Violettes is thornless.

Where can I find the bush Devonesis and/or Spice?

I got my bush Devonesis from Roses Unlimited www.rosesunlimitedownroot.com

I did not spell the name of the rose correctly.

I bought my bush Devoniensis from Roses Unlimited

http://www.rosesunlimitedownroot.com/alphabetical_list.htm

Hmmm, you have to buy a minimum of roses at Roses Unlimited and I have room for only 2 right now. :-(

I had SDLM but the leaves always looked terrible and I don't want to spray.

Maman Cochet is a small grower for me. The pink blooms are really beautiful. I would like to have another one of these.

Tenor Peggy, Chamblees Roses in Tyler has Spice - I think price is about $8.95 - their quality is excellent - check out their website. I live 2 hours from there and love visiting.
Judith

Tenor_peggy , I spray my potted roses with milk and garlic and all the leaves look healthy even the HPs. I accept spraying because just about every plant I have (zinnias, vegetables, etc) have to be sprayed to reduce the pests and diseases. This Fall I might experiment with putting organic banana peels and cleaned eggshells (with a little cinnamon to deter ants) in the pots to see if the thin leaves will become thicker.

Tenor Peggy, with Roses Unlimited you can buy less than the minimum but the postage will be adjusted. I bought roses from them and was pleased with their cost of the reasonable postage and the quality of the plants.