In Florida (so perhaps not too relevant to your conditions), Penelope is a big, spreading shrub, frequent (but not constant) flowering. Flowers probably 2.5 inches across -- rather large for a HMsk. I like it.

I was told by a reliable source that Moonlight is zone 6.

How about Trier?

In general, Kordes HM are noticably hardier than the Pemberton/Bentall ones.

What Malcolm said goes for Oklahoma too. The flowers are small, but load the branch.

Sammy

I have both and much prefer Moonlight both for the clarity of it's blooms and it's willingness to rebloom more generously than the Spring show. Penelope is stiff and a bit ungainly, with a bare leg thing (at least in my garden) although Moonlight is not a small shrub either - reaching over the top of the shed (I could grow this as a climber easily as it has a bit more flex than Penelope). Both benefit from close companions, either tall perennials or shorter roses (I have the little Matchball with Penelope and foxgloves and campanulas bumble about beneath Moonlight's capacious skirts. Messy roses, not entirely suitable to formality, but both have a pleasantly fresh scent. As a bonus, Moonlight propagates at every stage - soft tips, semi-ripes and hardwood cuttings are all easy - Penelope a bit less so but still doable (semi-ripes in late June).

Thanks Malcolm. 2.5" that's pretty good. HMF says 4"!!

MG we always have this hardiness debate and I appreciate it :-) I grow both Felicia & Ballerina in my raises beds, Ballerina is 4 years old, and Felicia 2, they're doing fine.

I can't get hold of Trier, I was attracted by the bigger flowers of Penelope. I checked Lavender Lassie, the only Kordes I can get from Palatines, and the hardiness zone is the same.

Sammy by Oklahoma, I assume you meant Moonlight?

Campanula, thanks for the detailed explanation. I actually don't mind barelegged/ messy roses. Can you tell me anything about the diameter of the flowers of Moonlight?

Also, if anyone can comment on the scent? Strong, weak?

Felicia is sort of old rose with a hint of myrrh. I have no idea what type of scent these two have....

Thanks again,

- Bob

Sorry, but no. Malcolm described Penelope in Florida, and I meant that what he said about the growth in Florida goes for the growth in Oklahoma. I have 4 Penelope plants, and they are very large. Malcolm described them perfectly. I have never even heard of Moonlight although I also have Nur Mahal, Erfurt, and Bubble Bath.

Sammy

Hi Bob

For what it's worth, I'm like you in being successful in growing a wide variety of hybrid musks including some Pembertons (maybe 10 or 12 of them), and they are hardier in my region at least than reported. Having said that, Moonlight is one that has (so far) died twice in my yard. It wasn't in prime real estate, but I tend to love the hybrid musks for their willingness to grow in part shade, so they aren't often in the "fussy pants" rose beds in full sun. I'd love to hear if you try it and it does work for you, but in my experience it was one of the less hardy roses in this class.

On the other hand, I'm already putting Penelope on my wish list for spring, since the large flowers have me sold already. Not to mention that Burlington sells this one, and she has great prices for a rose I'm trying on a whim. Too bad camps reports it's not the more reliable rebloomer, but it might be nice behind other frequent bloomers with smaller flowers for a nice impact.

Obviously we're not helping you choose very efficiently, so you'll just have to try both and tell us how they do (smile)

Cynthia

Sammy sorry, got all mixed up :-)

Thanks Cynthia. That was very helpful about Moonlight. I rechecked HMF gardens. There are many gardens that grow Penelope in Quebec. Whereas Moonlight is grown only in Montreal Botanical gardens. Of course that doesn't mean that I won't be successful with Moonlight, but if I'm going to play it safe, I think my best best is Penelope.

Thanks again all!

My climate is very different from yours, so I cannot advise how either would do. I have grown both, and Trier as well. All are now gone for reasons that would not affect you choosing them.

I did want to mention that Moonlight sometimes has gorgeous red canes. It did not for me here, but I have seen this stunning effect in other people's gardens. It is also very thorny. Very, very thorny, so place it where this will not be a problem.

Rosefolly

Thanks Rosefolly I appreciate the info. The sometimes "red canes" is as tempting as the thorniness is not :-)

Has anyone mentioned the bonus of Penelope's lovely pinkish/coral hips?

I can also add Penelope does not have Felicia's fragrance-no trace of myrrh.

Thanks littlesmokie for the fragrance/ hip remark. While I don't like the myrrh/ camphor/ musk scent of roses such as Tamora, I don't mind it in Felicia. It's sort of like old rose with a twist :-)

I have both but both are new this year and were pruned hard by deer. I think I liked Penelope better for scent but it has been so long. I will look for pics to confirm but also think I liked the blooms better. Moonlight is in a warm pocket and a rose I am ordering another for in case.

SCG

Just wanted to post an update.
I got Penelope from Palatine.
Only time will say, if this experiment would work, i.e. growing shade tolerant roses in shade.
I honestly can't say how much sunlight it receives, but I can affirm that it is less than "part shade", more or less dappled shade.
The shade is due to a sprawling Manitoba Maple and a dense cherry tree, which I hope some day to have pruned.
However by September, Penelope should be receiving much more sunlight...

The plant for the time being is around 3 feet tall with 3 main branches.
We had a lot of rain in June (every 2nd day) and rather cool temperatures.
To my surprise, several weeks ago, I saw flower buds on all branches. And she flowered on July 1st.
This is one of the most beautiful roses, I've ever seen. So many variations going from the most delicate pink to pure white.
For the time being there is a very light fragrance. If I recall well, my Felicia didn't have much scent the first year.
Thanks again all....

Penelope's maiden bloom.....

Wonderful - it is indeed a lovely flower and quite large for a hybrid musk. We'll be very interested to hear how she overwinters for you as well.
Cynthia

'Penelope' often has a fairly strong, sweet fragrance.

Penelope is not forgiving of being crowded whereas Moonlight is a rose which thrives in company. My poor Penny is currently almost hidden beneath an enormous nutkana while Moonlight and Snowgoose are fighting it out - I have to crawl on hands and knees to get into my garden shed...but am reluctant to hack back the massive clusters of unopened blooms.

Campanula, mine has 3 hakon grasses. But it is not crowded. The trees are very tall.

Thanks Michael something to look forward too in autumn or next spring...

Cynthia, I'm curious too about its cold hardiness. This spot is very sunny during winter, so it is more subject to freeze/thaw cycles. Unlike Felicia, which is in a winter shady spot. Packed in solid snow/ice for 4 months....

I read Penelope sets hips. If I don't deadhead some of the blooms, will it have a 2nd flush?

Bob, that 'Penelope' is really lovely. I keep thinking I want to grow at least one Hybrid Musk, but I can't make up my mind; I like most of them... Shade-tolerant is a good thing here as well.

Hope she continues to prosper,

Virginia

Thanks Virginia. You could start with Pax, as you have a similar rose and were looking for an ID, but there are many good ones.
I can vouch for Ballerina, not fragrant, single whitish flower with a tinge of pink, which bleaches in the sun and the pink deepens with cold weather, very prolific growth and blooms quite generously. According to Camps, it roots easily. Healthy.
I love Felicia, very very fragrant, wafts, but doesn't like the rain too much, again a very healthy rose in my climate.