Patrick, you know that THE Madame is my favorite of all roses. It does fine in humid east TX with no spray. Your area may be different. As to size - in areas warmer than you it can be a tree that you can sit under for shade. She can easily be grown as a free standing shrub because once established she has a trunk that stands up to anything.

I hope you plant her and tell me about her winter hardiness in your zone. I actually planted one here in Denver - zone 5 - in the hottest part of the yard, next to a brick wall that acts as a heat sink. I will winter protect her with my own body she is so important to me.

Here it was always bald (BS) from mid summer on, but still it is a wonderful rose. One of my very favorite roses. It can get really huge even in our 6B zone. My MAC was more then 10x10 in tree years, I was growing it like a free stnding bush. I lost it to RRD two years ago and still can't get over it. One of the first roses to bloom and fragrance is wonderful.
Olga

I don't know about blackspot, but she is mildewy in my climate.

Jeri

Patrick, I once visited an elderly woman in Santa Barbara,
a few years back, who had a grand all white and blush pink
rose garden. She had two magnificent Madame Alfred Carrier's
growing on an ornate, sage green gazebo. It looked Victorian
and pretty and had sweet fragrance. She told me it was the
only rose she could not live without and she knew her
roses. I think it would be a great choice.

Dang, 100% defoliation by July doesn't sound good. Mom's black spot pressure is a little better than ours but it is still the worst rose disease in her area. What about AWAKENING, BLUSH NOISETTE, DEVONIENSIS or SOMBREUIL instead? Remember this is USDA Zone 7b/8a.

Thanks,

Patrick

Scratch Awakening. I'm not dealing with that monster's thorns again. Besides, the light fragrance was disappointing.

I grow Sombreuil, and while truly breathtaking will get too much black spot in a no spray Virginia garden.

That leaves BLUSH NOISETTE, DEVONIENSIS and perhaps CLAIR MATIN?

Blush Noisette is wonderful, I'd go with that one. (Mine is a one year old plant, has gotten a touch of blackspot late in the season, but it has grown and bloomed beautifully.)

Clair Matin is a lovely rose as well. To my nose the fragrance is not strong, but moderate.

A side note, your Mom might like the new Austin rose Bishop's Castle for a small pink shrub rose. Well, I think small, it looks like it might be a compact grower. Mine is new to the garden this year. Good repeat bloom and the foliage has been very clean. Fragrance is wonderful.

For BS resistance Devoniensis is much better then Blush Noisette. Blush Noisette defoliates here. I never grew Devoniensis myself, but my friend grows it and though it gets some BS, it still keeps most of its leaves for him (50-70%) and doesn't look ugly. The flowers are lovely. If it wouldn't be such a big plant, I would plant it w/o hesitation in my garden.
Olga

Patrick, I have both Mde. Alfred Carriere and Clair Matin. In my experience, Clair Matin has been the most prone to blackspot. Keep in mind though that Mde. Carriere gets rather large - it covered a large expanse on my pergola. Unfortunately, this was one of the few roses that I have lost to the dreaded rose rosette. I did replace it as it is one of my all time favorites.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mde. Alfred Carriere in my garden

How about this one: Very fragrant and AMAZING disease resistance and excellent repeat bloom:

{{gwi:309401}}

You could also consider the Austin Rose The Generous Gardener.
In the "new" Austin book it says that it will quickly grow into a climber that can reach 12 feet or more.

And NO it does not reeekkk of hospitals and medicine even though it does have a slight myrrh note mixed with the old rose scent.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Geneorus Gardener

Bishop's Castle blackspotted in my yard when I was too lazy to spray.

Sombrieul gets bs, but not that bad.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret your post re. what you're planning to plant vs. what has already been planted in what is essentially a no-spray garden.

Based on my experience, I would say that if 'Marie Pavie' and her sport 'Marie Daly' are BS-free in your environment, then MAC (and virtually any other rose) should be just fine.

Windeaux, You are right, I think. 'Marie Pavie' and her sport 'Marie Daly' are not resistant to BS here, as well as MAC. I hope it is slightly better in VA, where Patrick's mother lives.
Olga

Am I missing something, or did Cupshaped fail to identify the pictured pink rose?

I have to say these blackspot discussions make me smile. It's difficult to determine what will be resistant to bs from one side of my Dallas suburb to the other side of the same suburb. So many variables. In my opinion, if you think you'd love a particular rose, give it a try. The acquisition of some of my most favorite roses growing in my garden were preceded by blackspot warnings, yet they've amazed me. Of course, some others have been failures, but the potential rewards are worth the risk. And when someone says a rose is a "blackspot magnet", you would really need to know their specific tolerance level. All roses get bs from time to time. The same level of blackspot occurrence on the same rose in my garden might be totally acceptable to me. Just a thought.

Randy

You are Right Michael!! The rose is one of the Ultra Disease Resistant new Kordes Climbers called "Jasmina". It was introduced the same year as "Laguna" which I also grow (cupshaped flowers, strong pink and very good fragrance). I know Ceterum here on the forum grows it, so it must be possible to get somewhere in the good ole US of A.

Palatine carries both Laguna and Jasmina. They look lovely; wonder how hardy they would be?
Judith

Both have become ADR roses. Meaning they have been tested for hardiness and disease resistance in test gardens in many different climate zones. So they are very hardy! We live in almost the same climate zone Judith so I think it can make it there. But my experience is limited to growing these on walls here. Whether they will be able to cover an arbor in our zones remains to be seen. But in the climate zone Patrick is talking about it should be no problem.

Patrick,

I grow MAC in Atlanta (zone 7b) and love her. I've been haphazard with spraying over the past couple of years and while other roses are ugly and losing leaves MAC has just a few spots. In the spring when I was spraying better sometimes I would just skip by MAC without spraying at all.

I'd recommend that if you really like the Madame (and of course you do), you give her a try. From my experience, Atlanta is in BS Alley and I don't have one single rose that never gets any BS--I've even seen knockouts covered in it around here.

Go with the Madame--I think you'll be glad you did.

Jeff

My MAC has no spots. Wait a minute, that's cause she has no leaves! And I spray. My house is only 45 minutes or so away from where Rozanna used to live, so I just don't understand it. I don't mind spots, but I do mind roses with no leaves at all. It's just so ugly to see thorny canes.
MAC is a monster. Small tree is right. It's casting too much shade on my roses. Beautiful in bloom, though.
You are such a stickler for fragrance so I've got to mention that I can't smell MAC. I think my nose can't detect noisettes. The only one I can smell is the one I bought as Sombreuil, which I think has a really special scent, but I think it's on death's door (from MAC's shade) so I may have to get another one.

I like the flowers of MAC but the rose does require more work than other roses. It is hard to train since the canes are like asparaguses and break easily.
And in my experience it is NOT a nospray rose. BS is just one thing but once we discussed whether a climber was MAC or not. my friend said "Yes it smell divine" and I said ..yes it has Powdery Mildew, so it is MAC.

I wonder how well 'Renae' would do in the humid southeastern climates. Otherwise, how about a rose like 'Bubble Bath'?

I'm wondering about Renae myself. I planted one this spring and it has grown and bloomed beautifully all year. I'm afraid it's going to be a monster. Not much BS so far, but I don't judge a rose's resistance the first year. I'm mainly just impressed that a new climber is blooming more than any of my 3 year old climbers put together except for Alister Stella Gray.
But the rose I have isn't pink toned white, it's just pink.

Patrick,

MAC here is pretty disease free. BS is a big issue here. I have never seen her close to getting bald. I have some in my mind that are terrible with blackspot and this isn't one of them.

I dont spray regularly (maybe once this year). She looked pretty darned good. Some spots but nothing terrible. I would give it a try.

Marleah

My 3 year old MAC has ALWAYS been mostly leafless. I keep hoping it will surprise me with leaves AND blooms one day, but no...that hasn't happened. I will leave it thru the fall and if there is no improvement I will replace her. I hate having to do that, especially after reading so many wonderful comments about her, but why waste time and space on a poor performer, right?

Marie Pavie isn't blackspot resistant here either; defoliates more then 50% without spraying

Laguna is very clean and the clusters of old fashioned blooms are very fragrant. Alas, I do not grow Jasmina (yet).

Laguna in Augut 2007
{{gwi:237945}}

I've decided not to go with either MADAME ALFRED CARRIER or MARIE PAVIE/DALY. If Olga says they black spot then they black spot. I can accept 30% foliage loss but not more than that. Otherwise the bushes look like leppers before becoming bald. Black spot is more severe in the Mid-Atlantic than anywhere else in the country, including Texas. The disease is also less of a problem in zones 4/5. Virginia is considered Mid-Atlantic (although the southernmost state in the "region"). Besides, DEVONIENSIS, has better/tighter flower form. A suitable substitute for Marie Daly/Pavie is BLUSHING KNOCK OUT. Another option is CLOTILDE SOUPERT. Yes, I know CS balls and mildews but these are easily corrected problems (mildew in particular is a lot more treatible than black spot; the Cornell formula actually works on it). In my garden both the climber and the shrub showed good BS resistance.

CLAIR MATIN is off the list, but BLUSH NOISETTE is definately a keeper. It is supposed to have one of the best/unique fragrances and I've been wanting to try it for years.

Thanks folks!

Patrick

Beautiful picture of Laguna Ceterum!!! I love this rose more every day I have it. I even find the fragrance better here in the 3. flush.

Devoniensis:::: Sigh... I grow this rose and MAC. Yes MAC does get BS and Mildew even if I spray. But it does not defoliate more than about 30 percent.
Devoniensis... Well look at these pics:

Spring:

{{gwi:309402}}

Later this season in spite of religiously spraying it with 2 different fungicides:

{{gwi:309403}}

Every single leaflet looks like this (I grow a clematis Blue Angel, so there is at least something that looks green on it ( 80-90 percent defoliated):

{{gwi:309404}}

Sooo It is getting shovel pruned this fall!!!! One of the worst BS prone roses I have ever grown!

And I know you like fragrant roses Patrick! Have you smelled Blush Noisette? Up close and personal? Do that BEFORE you consider planting it, if fragrant roses are a must. It may be a good garden roses because it blooms so well ... but I would never grow it because of fragrance.

I so enjoy fragrant roses too!! I would grow a rose if it had poor disease resistance if the fragrance makes up for it. I hope you find some good roses for your mother. Meanwhile I will be cruel to this MAC flower I just went out side for and sniff every molecule of scent out of it:

WOW, I always wanted to grow Devoniensis. It is quite healthy for one of my friends in Frederick County, MD.
I think you cured me from this wish, Cupshaped :)
Olga

Is blushing Knockout fragrant?

Sorry Olga but I sprayed Devoniensis more than 20 times this year (April to September) and still it defoliated from BS.
I used 2 very effective fungicides and they were not able to prevent this rose from looking this bad. Fungicides that keep BS prone roses like the bourbons Reine Victoria and Mme Pierre Oger totally clean. So I do not find it worth the effort to grow this rose, since spraying does not even help.

I wouldn't necessarily go to Europe for advice about BS... the climate and weather are just too different when it comes to some (most?) classes.

Cupshaped, maybe you have a different clone of 'Blush Noisette' there - the one here smells lovely, I've beheld it with my own nose. Some say 'Marie Pavie' may be nothing more than a clone of BN, and the two do seem very similar in my opinion (fragrance included). By the way, if you can grow 'Devoniensis' there as a climber without burying the canes for the winter, then you are in no way comparable in terms of winter temperatures with most of the colder parts of the United States. Just so you know how lucky you really are to garden in such a mild climate!

Olga,

I wouldn't place too much weight on Cupshape's reports. She gardens in Denmark. We already know the black spot pressures in the United States vary from region to region. Different strains of BS exist and even the same strain will vary in aggressiveness depending on the climate. For example, portions of Texas experience hot humid summers, but their high temps easily top 100 degrees Fahrenheit. I remember reading somewhere that the optimum temperature for black spot germination is between 70 - 80F. Extremely high temperatures can actually retard black spot. This would seem logical when you consider the rampant black spot in the Mid-Atlantic. For example, cultivars reported as resistant in the Deep South (like the Polyanthas and Teas) oftentimes defoliate from the disease here in Maryland. You know as well as I do that during our hottest months, the early morning temperatures hover in the low 70s. The rest of the day may be in the 90s but the relatively cooler mornings combined with high humidity provide the perfect conditions for black spot. Recently I got taught a lesson in regional disease pressures. In May my mother and I visited the Botanical Gardens in Norfolk, Virginia. I distinctly remember seeing a specimen of the China rose MUTABILIS in one of their theme gardens and the poor thing was riddled with black spot. Over one third of the leaves were laying on the ground. The remaining foliage was yellow and black spotted. The delicate multicolored flowers were very beautiful but it was hard to focus on them when they "floated" above such an ugly diseased bush! I distinctly remember reading past posts from folks in places like Florida and Texas who reported that this rose was nie bulletproof to black spot. Not in zone 8a Virginia!

If your friend successfully grows DEVONIENSIS no spray in Frederick then there is every likelyhood that you can as well.

Best wishes,

Patrick

Patrick:
Have you considered climbing SdlM for your garden? I grow it at the Jersey shore and it is only in its 2nd year but it doesn't have any BS or other problems so far. MAC does have some loss of foliage and BS.
Good luck!

I have had the chance to sniff 'Blush Noisette' on several occasions while traveling in warmer climates and I have always been surpised by its strong, heady, piercingly sweet fragrance.

As for 'Madame Alfred Carriere', I grew it long ago in Michigan. It was perfectly hardy for me but never grew very tall. It remained more of a lanky bush. About 20-25% of the foliage became infected with blackspot in my no-spray garden every summer. As long as I was able to find a flower in bud stage or half open, it was nicely fragrant, but once open I could barely detect a whiff of perfume from its petals.

YES, Ispahan's experience with MAC sounds exactly like the one here. A lanky bush with a few flowers here and there on the ends of shoots in summer (kind of stingy, actually) and the fragrance of the blooms is fleeting at best. Not much blackspot at all so far. I consider it somewhat overrated - although I wonder just how hardy it actually is. A stingy rose here might still be nice to have up north.

I was under the impression that cupshaped is a 'he', not a 'she'... Cupshaped, wanna weigh in on that? :)

I'm still having trouble making a decision. I'm strongly considering DEVONIENSIS but worried about the color. In some pics it looks creamy (i.e. yellow) white. I need a pink toned white; the cooler the pink tones the better. CLIMBING CLOTILDE SOUPERT would work in that spot (I've grown her before and she is one of my favorites for repeat bloom, fragrance, beauty-of-flower, and disease resistance), but I'd like something with slightly larger flowers. I also don't know how mum will react to the balling. Not a problem for me but it might be for her. CLIMBING SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON is tempting but I'm worried about the repeat bloom. I've read some bad reports on that front.

What about CLIMBING WHITE MAMON COCHET? It is definately a cool pink toned white and the fragrant nodding flowers would be a plus in a climber. Is the repeat bloom reliable? How good is the vigor (i.e. will mom have to to wait 5 years for it to mature; I don't even know if she is going to live that long)? And is CWMC resistant to black spot?

In a local public rose garden,in Oakland, California, in a microclimate where powdery mildew is the biggest problem, followed by blackspot.
-that has a no-spray policy
-where some H.T.s are plagued by mild to moderate blackspot.
the California form of "Lamarque" has very healthy foliage, better than any other climber I've seen in the S.F. Bay area, and it's growing in a neglected part of the garden, and hasn't been fertilized for several years. If you like that cultivar,I'd suggest checking Ashdown to see if they sell it as a 2 year old plant on rootstock, for a faster growing plant for your mothers'garden. Here, "Lamarque" has an exceptionally long bloom season here, and is the first and last Tea-Noisette to bloom.

"Renae" is grafted onto standards, in the same garden and I've never seen more than mild disease on it.

Luxrosa

Patrick, have you considered Pilarcitos? Vintage describes it as "like a cream colored version of Souvenir de la Malmaison," and I guess it is. But it isn't a yellow cream. It's more the color of actual cream.

Mine was quick to take off and has been healthy on its own roots. I can't say how resistant it would be to BS in a high pressure area, though. PM is the bigger problem here.

The rebloom is continuous and fairly generous for most of the season. It gets a little stingy in mid summer, but then most of my roses that aren't true teas or chinas do. My Pilarcitos is better in that regard than my MAC.

Blooms from the first flush this spring.
{{gwi:309405}}

Mid July
{{gwi:309406}}

I can't imagine anyone who would comtemplate spraying Mdm Alfred C.. The one that's eating our deck, and starting to scramble over the roof, 16 feet off the ground, is so huge, that I don't see the point of it. In our garden, in the Pacific North We(s)t, where blackspot is a fact of life, it gets infected every year. The worse of it hits after the major flush, starting late June. There is an estimated 25% defoliation by mid July. I think it's 255 and not more, simply because the plant is so big and reaches so high. Those foliage reaching high in the sky are relatively spared. By mid August, it seems to rebound. Through out September, it is covered with lush green leaves and blooming continuously again.

This one does not get mildew in our garden.

Definitely one of my favourite roses. But can you live with it's size?

Stefanb8, you are right. Cupshaped_roses is a guy from
Denmark. He is a very good gardener too.

Blush Noisette and Sombreuil are both reasonably clean in my no-spray garden. Sombreuil is considerably more fragrant, to my nose, but does not provide the quantity of blooms that I get from Blush Noisette. Marie Pavie is a very good repeat bloomer, and spreads her sweet fragrance on the air. That said, I believe the reason Mme. Alfred Carriere is SO much more popular than any of the others is the combination of continuous bloom, great vigor, and wonderful fragrance. If I had room, I'd have her instead of the 3 others, based on all the raves about MAC.

Oops, forgot to indicate I'm in far SE Virginia--Chesapeake, down by the NC state line. Can't help but add that Duchesse de Brabant would be a great candidate for your mum's garden.