I always enjoy reading your posts. It took me a while to respond because-
Wowsers! that is a lot of stuff to contemplate, anyone of those roses could send me into a lineage research frenzy.
"Gloire des Rosomanes" is my favorite red China (I send my apologizes to the fragrance of Cramoisi Superior')
I've been mightily impressed with photos of 'Annie Laurie McDowell' it is a very pretty rose. and I hope it will soon be sold in more nurseries. I wonder if roses of that type might sell more under the designation of 'Hybrid Musk' because more people might know what to expect; attractive and bushy foliage, good re-bloom, less maintenance than a H.P. or H.T.. than were it sold as a Shrub which can mean nearly anything that doesn't fit in another class.
Oakland California has a no-spray (by city law) rose park and there is a row of 'Renae' grown as tall weeping standards, It is a very healthy rose. Has Renaes seedling 'Annie Laurie McDowell inherited its disease resistance?

A David Austin book has listed Fair Bianca's parents as "unknown" This fact tantalizes me. From which parent did it receive its' Portland high-shouldered look? A white rose with Myrrh scent? Belle Isis? as a grandparent with Blanc de Vibert' as a parent or grandparent would be my best guess. I wonder if that rose cultivar was even in the fields then. How far will a bee fly while it is carrying rose pollen? Could one have ambled in from a neighbors' yard carrying the pollen of Blanc de Vibert'?
I find it encouraging that even a prolific rose hybridizer may have lost the documentation of 'Fair Bianca's seed parents' name. As hard as I try to keep the proper sign with pollen and seeds, some tag always get lost. I believe they may all be in the Bermuda Triangle happlily circling the current with thosands of lost socks.

-It's all in the genes, but which genes from whom?

Luxrosa

Hi Lux! Yup, now you see the issues in classifying your "babies"! And, yes, Annie Laurie McDowell appears to not only have inherited Renae's total lack of prickles, but her disease resistance and shade tolerance as well, but with many more petals and increased fragrance. She may even be more cold hardy as she is currently successfully growing in Germany and The Netherlands. I'm working on getting her available through more sources, honest!

Almost twenty years ago, I had the pleasure and honor of touring Vintage Gardens, Gregg's and Philip's home garden and the gardens of the Korbel Winery. Gregg, Philip and I talked of many rose ideas. Mr. Austin's early claim that the myrrh fragrance could only have come from Ayshire Roses was one of the subjects. I offered that Moonsprite, a 1956 Herb Swim floribunda with no traceable ties with anything Ayshire and introduced by Armstrong Nurseries, not only has the LOOK of what an Austin rose should be, but the intense myrrh fragrance. Their response to my suggestion was they had seen quite a few Moonsprites potted in the Austin Nursery, yet it wasn't on their availability list nor in their catalog... Interesting... I sought roses similar in appearance and fragrance but which had nothing to do with Mr. Austin and came up with quite a few. At their times, they were unpopular as they didn't conform to the public taste, high-centered HT. Moonsprite and Edith Schurr are two wonderful examples of the look and fragrance but which have nothing to do with his breeding. Potentially hundreds of thousands of "English Rose" style seedlings may have been discarded because they weren't exhibition style Hybrid Teas. Those characteristics are in the gene pool and do express themselves. Selecting for the florist rose appearance tends to reduce their potential expression, but doesn't eliminate them.

How could information be lost... Well, remember that the Austin Nursery was very fond of proclaiming their roses were all hybrids of OGRs in the eighties and into the nineties. There was a backlash about that when more and more began showing up with stated parentages of things like Aloha X Yellow Cushion (Abraham Darby), a 1949 Gene Boerner/J&P HT/Climber crossed with a 1966 David Armstrong floribunda. The rose has the "look" but nothing to do with the romantic breeding claims. Not long afterward, parentages for Austin roses were kept private, a practice still followed for many of their roses. "Unknown Seedling" can mean anything from actually unknown to "none of your business".

It is entirely possible the records were misplaced. It's also entirely possible they weren't. Not making them public permits the type of romantic flights of fantastic conjecture you just enjoyed, adding to the mystique of the English Rose, instead of the more pedestrian "current modern rose X current modern rose". Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Moonsprite on HMF

Oops, sorry! I'm told the link is to the wrong rose. This is where it should go. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Moonsprite corrected

I didn't really give parentage much thought until recently when I discovered that Austin's Chaucer was the result of Duchesse de Montebello x Constance Spry. Constance Spry is a result of Belle Isis x Dainty Maid.

I was originally drawn to OGRs through pictures of Belle Isis and Duchesse de Montebello. I was somewhat disappointed to find out these types of roses would not grow or bloom well in the deep south. I thought Chaucer might be a good substitute. BUT that depends. Duchesse de Montebello was originally registered as a Hybrid China. Dainty Maid is a floribunda, and Belle Isis is suspected of not being entirely gallica due to her pale pink coloring.

So there is a good mix of European and Asian genes in Chaucer, but whether or not it grows, blooms, and repeats well in my hot climate really depends on which side of the family it takes after!

I've had fun thinking about this for awhile, Kim.

Do you agree that the lines separating the ARS designated classifications of roses has been blurred to the point that they aren't that helpful?

I have read before that often choice of a category, which is left up to the breeder, anyway, is often not much more than marketing.

hybrid musks - designation by Rev. Pemberton, but not much musk in the roses.

hybrid teas - where did they really start and what does it really mean?

Shrub can mean anything. How are polys really different from some miniatures, some hybrid musks.

I guess my question is, what classifications do you consider to be really valid? What are the benchmarks of those classifications?

Out of the dark ages came the renaissance. How would you, yourself, reorganize rose categories so it made more sense? If that's not a fair questions, just say so, but I'm curious as to what you think. It also would make for a fun discussion, I think.

Good afternoon Gean! Yes ma'am, 'fun', isn't it? I've sent the longer "ramble" to you offline. Here, though, I think the best solution is heavily "borrowed" from Vintage's system, narrowing it to "bush" and "climbing" with further expansion under each type by growth habit, style. Old class names can be incorporated in descriptions because I feel they will continue to conjure the proper mental images to many people who will be buying the roses in the foreseeable future. Probably the highest number of plants will be purchased by "gardeners" and "landscapers" for commercial installation. Stating either bush or climber of approximate size will give most of them enough knowledge of the plant to mis use it. Kim

"Do you agree that the lines separating the ARS designated classifications of roses has been blurred to the point that they aren't that helpful?"

As more cross breeding occurs, it gets more blurred, yes. Compare Mignonette to Ellen Poulsen to any more modern floribunda. Ellen was a "hybrid polyantha". Looking at HTs like Vision, Glory Days or any of the other more vigorous types, "shrub" comes to mind as they aren't what the world knew at the beginning of the Twentieth Century.

"I have read before that often choice of a category, which is left up to the breeder, anyway, is often not much more than marketing."

So? What was Hybrid Tea? A marketing term, coined to differentiate the new Tea Hybrids to make them more readily identifiable to the buying public. "Polyantha" was stolen to fit the class. Previously it had been used as a variant name, Multiflora polyantha, etc. Floribunda and Grandiflora were as artificial as the previous names, created as marketing tools to differentiate types, hopefully, to provide the consuming public with mental images of an "improved" type.

"hybrid musks - designation by Rev. Pemberton, but not much musk in the roses."

If there had ever been as much panache to "multiflora" as there still is to "musk", I doubt "musk" would still be in use. Even the earliest of the Hybrid Musks reek of multiflora. Even the "musk" scent is nearly pure multiflora with little to no trace of musk at all.

"hybrid teas - where did they really start and what does it really mean?"

It was supposed to mean crosses of Hybrid Perpetual with Tea roses, possessing the high centered, larger, flimsier petal of the Tea instead of the rounded outline of the shorter petaled HPs. What we call "exhibition" or "florist" types today. Though Bennett claimed the earlier example, La France was the most hyped and romanticized, hence the one remembered. Through use, today the term most often means florist type bloom on taller, narrower plants, more often one flower to the stem. But, with nearly as many exceptions as there are examples.

"Shrub can mean anything. How are polys really different from some miniatures, some hybrid musks."

Exactly. Shrub means "not anything else". Miniatures supposedly have smaller flowers, supposedly on smaller bushes or climbers than the larger counterparts. Much blurring here, too. Is Cl. Happy a rambler, or a climbing poly, or a Hybrid Musk? What about Gartendirektor Otto Linne? What about Excellenze von Schubert? A poly should have more of an OGR look on a more mounding, spreading plant where a mini is stiffer, more modern in appearance, unless you're encountering early types or more decorative types which look more like Rouletti, Pompon de Paris, Oakington Ruby, etc. These bleed into Chinas, but they are progenitors of Polys, anyway.

But, that can also open the Pandora's Box of just when does a botanical classification become incorrect? How many generations removed from the musk cross can something be considered a hybrid of musk? I have a friend who also breeds roses. If there is a particular species somewhere in the line behind the seedling, it continues being called a hybrid of that species. How much is sufficient to continue to use the designation? Half, quarter, one-sixty-fourth? Following that line of thinking, Iceberg is a Hybrid Multiflora. It's wonderfully shade tolerant; other than size, has flowers which resemble what you'd expect from one and grows floppy and spreading like one.

"I guess my question is, what classifications do you consider to be really valid? What are the benchmarks of those classifications?"

Those which give the average buyer/user sufficient mental images to allow them to obtain and use the appropriate plant properly. Botanical classifications would mean nothing to most people unless much study went into the process. Most people don't have the time, aren't that interested or just plain don't care. Very many simply want something "fragrant, pretty and pink".

I think it would be kinder and gentler to the consumer to continue using the established classes but define them better. As I mentioned earlier, for the more educated, discriminating buyer, "borrow" Vintage's method of imparting the visuals of growth habit with a suitable range of sizes to be expected depending upon climate, culture, etc. For the average buyer, floribunda, HT, climber, etc. will suffice as they pretty much have an idea of what that means. Though not very precise, it is serviceable. Attempt to make it even more precise and you'll lose many folks.

For the more educated, sophisticated hobbyist, further fine tuning the description with more botanical classifications can provide information more useful for them to know much more precisely what to possibly expect. Using botanical classifications means a lot to anyone considering breeding for specific traits, or trying to breed without those they desire to eliminate. Kim

Kim, thanks for the response. I wish the classes were defined better too and that I understood the underlying lineages more. the more crosses there are, the more it gets confusing. I like what Lux say, "it's all in the genes, but what genes."

The main reason I think about parentage is not so much that I'm esoterically interested in the problems of ARS classification. I'm not a rose breeder,but just an average joe. My interest is my garden and what will do well in it.

For example, mildew is a problem in my garden because of the climate up here and maybe also my lack of airflow because of the trees around here. Some roses do perfectly fine, others are really susceptible. I've never dealt with mildew before, so it's something new for me.

I look for hybrid musks because they are supposedly more tolerant of the lack of sun and general climate up here, but some seem to be susceptible to mildew, some not. Why is that? What is in the lineage of some that cause susceptibility to mildew but not others.

The worst mildew I ever had was the beautiful found rose by our own dear Ann Peck, Old Grey Cemetery noisette. The lineage isn't known but classed as a noisette, I figure it has musk in it. - is musk highly susceptible to mildew? OG was bs impervious, I thought and tough as a boot - her words and my experience echoes it. Why is that? But highly mildewed in my yard.

I find that some hybrid musks have problems with mildew, some don't. Cornelia suffers but Exc vS its next door neighbor doesn't. Does Cornelia have more musk in it? Lineage isn't known. Is musk the issue? Is Exc VS really a hybrid musk? It is also classed as a polyantha by some. The vintage catalog says what binds the hybrid musks together is their shrubby nature. That's helpful for knowing how they grow but not so much as to their disease susceptibility.

If I could figure out where the predisposition to mildew comes from in its lineage it might help me avoid those types of hybrid musks. Prob the answer is there is no answer, I'm just trying to over simplify.

"Kim, thanks for the response. I wish the classes were defined better too and that I understood the underlying lineages more. the more crosses there are, the more it gets confusing. I like what Lux say, "it's all in the genes, but what genes."

Hi Gean, you're welcome! I'm glad this thread is getting the depth of thought you're giving it. Thank you! You'll understand more of the underlying lineages more with practice and exposure. Studying the parentages on HMF will begin to show you patterns, lines which do or don't do what you seek.

"The main reason I think about parentage is not so much that I'm esoterically interested in the problems of ARS classification. I'm not a rose breeder,but just an average joe. My interest is my garden and what will do well in it."

Yes ma'am, totally valid.

"For example, mildew is a problem in my garden because of the climate up here and maybe also my lack of airflow because of the trees around here. Some roses do perfectly fine, others are really susceptible. I've never dealt with mildew before, so it's something new for me."

Yes, and ironically, sister seedlings from the same hip will often show tremendously varying degrees of resistance.

"I look for hybrid musks because they are supposedly more tolerant of the lack of sun and general climate up here, but some seem to be susceptible to mildew, some not. Why is that? What is in the lineage of some that cause susceptibility to mildew but not others."

Hybrid Musk is a misnomer. Originally, Aglaia was created by crossing multiflora with Reve d'Or. Reve d'Or was a seedling of Mme. Schultz, classed as a Tea Noisette, but of unknown parentage. Noisettes originated from musk X China, but there is no known link between these and Mme. Schultz, therefore with Reve d'Or, therefore with any of the established Hybrid Musks. That link is often repeated, but never proven, so it's rose legend. Everything about them as a class, look, behavior, scent, shade tolerance, botanical details...all go back to multiflora. Hybrids of multiflora can be intensely chlorotic due to pH; can mildew something terrible; tend to have great shade tolerance; greatly exhibit the shrub to climbing growth demonstrated by the HM class; traditionally have pastel to white coloring, which is completely logical for under story, woodland plants. Dark flowers don't reflect a lot of light so wouldn't attract pollinators and would die out in Nature. "Musks" aren't necessarily susceptible to mildew. Multifloras often are. Ballerina is a mildew martyr here. There is no "musk" in her expressed characteristics, but there is a TON of multiflora.

Each seedling of the same parents is going to have as different an immune system as siblings from the same parents. Some combinations will produce greater resistance than others.

"The worst mildew I ever had was the beautiful found rose by our own dear Ann Peck, Old Grey Cemetery noisette. The lineage isn't known but classed as a Noisette, I figure it has musk in it. - is musk highly susceptible to mildew? OG was bs impervious, I thought and tough as a boot - her words and my experience echoes it. Why is that? But highly mildewed in my yard."

Mildew is a juvenility disease. It most often affects new foliage. Rust and black spot are geriatric diseases, affecting aging foliage. You can force any plant to develop the infections, even those with great resistance, through culture. You can force even the healthiest rose to mildew by stressing it for water severe enough. I stressed my R. Arkansana into terminal rust through water stress. I now over water it and it is squeaky clean.

Many China roses mildew quite a bit. Look at Old Blush. I've not encountered much disease of any kind on roses which demonstrate strong musk influence. Secret Garden is totally immune to everything here. No fungal issues at all, even in a very stressed, shady, dry and windy spot in a client's garden in Santa Clarita. No diseases at all.

Penelope mildews like crazy in the same garden. Erfurt and the Lens hybrid multifloras mildewed here in Encino. Secret Garden, stressed tremendously in a five gallon can with almost no soil left in it, and pulled from the roots it grew into the ground is spotless. Oddly, Pookah is disease free here in the same area as the others who have mildew.

"I find that some hybrid musks have problems with mildew, some don't. Cornelia suffers but Exc vS its next door neighbor doesn't. Does Cornelia have more musk in it? Lineage isn't known. Is musk the issue? Is Exc VS really a hybrid musk? It is also classed as a polyantha by some. The vintage catalog says what binds the hybrid musks together is their shrubby nature. That's helpful for knowing how they grow but not so much as to their disease susceptibility."

There is no known link between anything musk and either of those roses. There IS a high percentage of multiflora in Schubert. That and China roses. Schubert also contains a decent amount of Frau Karl Druschki, another rose which can mildew like crazy. It appears the combination of the two sets of genes provided the better pairings from Schubert's disease resistance. From Cornelia's behavior and performance, I'm comfortable offering that it contains a decent amount of multiflora, just as the other Hybrid Musks do.

Sally Holmes is, by breeding, a Hybrid Musk. Ballerina, though of unknown origin, is considered one and Sally is Ballerina X Ivory Fashion. Polyanthas sprang from multiflora. Polyanthas led to several of the roses in question, Excellenze von Schubert for one. Ballerina is like a pinker, repeat flowering multiflora, almost what you'd expect from a pink, The Gift. Knowing what you do about Sally Holmes, is it that far a stretch to consider that, perhaps, the unknown seedling which created Penelope, Cornelia, and the rest might have been either Ballerina, Trier or something very similar? Here, Sally has much greater mildew resistance than Cornelia, Buff Beauty, Ballerina, Erfurt and many others. Talk about blurring of breeding!

Robin Hood (a product of a hybrid multiflora crossed with multiflora and China roses) crossed with another poly led to the poly, Happy. Cl. Happy is like a dark red Hybrid Musk/repeat flowering rambler. Robin Hood when crossed with a Hybrid Tea resulted in Iceberg. Iceberg has characteristic mildew on the peduncles and can be forced to black spot if kept pruned too harshly. Notice some trends here? Getting the idea where your mildew originated?

"If I could figure out where the predisposition to mildew comes from in its lineage it might help me avoid those types of hybrid musks. Prob the answer is there is no answer, I'm just trying to over simplify."

No, I don't think you're trying to over simplify, but the answer is a bit more involved than we'd hope. The mildew came from multiflora and China roses. Some reshuffling of the genes through breeding has led to some which are less susceptible, but without personal experience, it's almost impossible to know which ones. Might you have tried moving the worst offenders around to see if a change of a few feet might help them remain cleaner?

A suggestion...Nastrana is known to be a China rose X musk cross, therefore a real musk hybrid. Secret Garden is, by characteristics, a musk or musk hybrid. Have you tried either of those? Lavender Dream is out of Nastrana and Yesterday. Yesterday has Ballerina in it, but has been very healthy in places Ballerina isn't. Narrow Water is a sport of Nastrana. Trying some of these which are either known or highly suspected of being descended from actual musk roses might help answer your questions about where the mildew came from and what might be used to avoid it. Darlow's Enigma is highly multiflora by characteristics, but much more disease resistant than the traditional Hybrid Musks for me. Perhaps it might work for you? It's thought it might actually be Cascadia, which has multiflora, Brunonii and modern roses in it. I hope I've at least given you some more ideas to ponder. Thanks! Kim

Thanks, Kim. I'll enjoy thinking about all of this. I will say that I do have Darlow's Enigma in a wooded area and it has done well. Likewise, Purple Skyliner, who I think is out of Veilchenblau, a multiflora. They are first year so I've tried to keep them watered, but it has been a dry summer here and they have shown no mildew.

Two my chinas, White Pearl and Spice, both have mildewed. Le Vesuve has not at all and looks healthy. The teas are fine so far.

Polyanthas have done really well here for me. I hadn't thought of their origin being in multiflora, but it makes perfect sense to me now. No mildew on any of them. Marie Pavie, Petite Francoise and Baptiste LF are some of my best roses.

I have 3 Pemberton hybrid musks. I have tried to keep them well watered and even sprayed the foliage - Cornelia is the worst, but Buff Beauty has had some, Felicia a little but as I said, Excellenz none. Oddly, Zeffy, in the worst spot but relatively close to Cornelia has had some bs but no mildew, which I find interesting. She's the one I expected the worst problems from.

So if mildew comes from china and multiflora, I think it's still just a guessing game until I grow them because some of my healthiest roses are multiflora.
Experience counts most here, I guess. Thanks for all the insights and help. I'll think about your suggestions and maybe try some.

Purple skyliner is a beauty! Thanks, Kim. Gean

You're welcome Gean. Might it also be the ones which are offending worst with mildew aren't mature yet? Younger plants, therefore with less foliage and wood for food production and storage, can have pretty bad disease issues until they "grow out of it". For much the same reasons Iceberg can be forced to black spot where it normally doesn't by keeping it pruned too hard.

It's ironic that there can be some incredibly disease resistant multiflora hybrids when there are so many really sick ones. I believe the majority of the Pemberton ones are crosses with Hybrid Teas. Many of that vintage were rather well known for mildew issues. I'll look forward to hearing what thoughts come to you and what your experiences are with them as they mature. Yes ma'am, Purple Skyliner is gorgeous! Always a pleasure! Thanks. Kim

Gean......

I second Kim's recommendation about moving a plant so that it can get better air circulaton to help manage mildew. In San Diego I grew 'Sweet Chariot' as a 4' standard in a very large container. When I had the plant out in front of my condo, it mildewed horribly. 'Sweet Chariot' has lot of multiflora in the pollen parent and china in the seed parent. The air in front of my condo dropped down from a mesa and pooled in the cul-de-sac which I thought might be the cause of the mildew problems. With help, I moved the plant to the back of my condo where there was a small gully between my condo and the condos on the street below. Due to that open space, there was a constant breeze going through that area. I had NO mildew problems with the rose once I moved it to where the air circulation was much better.

I also pruned the rose differently than I prune my roses in my northern California garden. I pruned with the objective of increasing air flow through the plant ... kind of tricky with a weeping standard.

I am currently growing 'Sweet Chariot' in the ground in this garden, but I prune to increase foliage because I believe the denser foliage helps avoid sunburned canes and helps the plant to be more heat tolerant in the intense heat in my new climate.

I've had the same experience with a couple of other roses. My experience with this one rose was probably the most dramtic, so I think siting is very much a part of managing mildew. Of course, it may not solve the problems of every rose that has a propensity to mildew.

Smiles,
Lyn

hi, Lyn,

Thanks for your comments. It is always interesting to read what others have done with their roses and their successes and failures. I'll remember your Sweet Chariot story!

I'm going to leave my mildewy ones where they are right now and see if maturity is the issue. They'll be three next year and I'll re evaluate then. I think they're all too young to really know how they're going to do, but I'm kinda thinking that some are just simply inclined to mildew given the chance. Probably off with their heads, next year.