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| I just placed an order for Souvenir de St. Anne's. This is a rose I had for a very short time at my last place. I moved before I really got to know it. I decided that I want it again. I'm finding somewhat conflicting information on it. Is it a sport or is it a hybrid of Malmaison? I had SdlM for several years before I got St. Anne's, and at the time I thought the foliage was a dead ringer for Malmaison. But that was so long ago... Also, I have Marie Daly, the pinker sport of Pavie. Daly and St. Anne's are both on the Earthkind list while their parents are not. Pretty interesting. Were the parents not trialed? Trialed and failed? Finally, I've noticed that neither of these sports gets the same kind of attention that the parents do. I wonder if it's because this is the Antique roses forum, and the older ones will always be preferred? |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by malcolm_manners 9b C. Fla. (My Page) on Sun, Sep 21, 14 at 22:58
| Souv. de St. Anne's is a sport of SDLM. Nevertheless, it is a substantially more vigorous plant than its sport parent. |
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| St. Anne's is a sport. I don't know the answers to your other questions. Kim |
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- Posted by bellegallica_zone9 9 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 22, 14 at 2:45
| Thanks for the input. Given that SdlM has several other sports, it seemed most likely St. Anne's was one, too. In the short time I had it, it did seem to be exactly the same as SdlM except for the flowers. It's good to know that extra vigor came along with the other changes. I was confused because came across comments by Graham Stuart Thomas that he thought the scent of St. Anne's came from R. moschata in its background. I, and it looks like others as well, interpreted that to mean he was implying St. Anne's was a hybrid of Malmaison and moschata. But I guess he meant Malmaison must have moschata somewhere in its background. I don't think there is any true answer to the last question. Just a matter of personal preference. In some things we'll always want the new and "improved," but in others we'll want the original. Or in this case why not both? :-) |
This post was edited by bellegallica_zone9 on Mon, Sep 22, 14 at 2:49
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| Sports of OGR are considered OGR. After all, your 'Souv. de St. Anne's' is a piece of a piece of (etc) the original SDLM plant, bred around 1840. I think the extra vigor may just come from having fewer petals, which allows the flowers to develop faster and allows more energy to go into stem growth. I think of the scent as spicy. It is strikingly different from the others. 'Kronprinzessin Viktoria' also has a different scent, one that I can't smell much, but Labrea can. KpV also differs from the others in its high resistance to petal blight and balling, better than 'Mystic Beauty' which in turn is somewhat better than SDLM. |
This post was edited by michaelg on Mon, Sep 22, 14 at 12:36
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| Michael, is Mystic Beauty an older rose or a sport of SDLM? Or is it a totally different type of rose? I know you have liked it for years, but the shipping from the other nursery is more expensive than the rose for me. Regardless, I have always been curious of the Mystic Beauty. Sammy |
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- Posted by bellegallica_zone9 9 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 22, 14 at 14:00
| Sammy, from what I've read, Mystic Beauty is a sport of Kronprinzessin Viktoria which is in turn a sport of SdlM. So some people think Mystic Beauty is simply a reversion back to SdlM. But others feel it's more vigorous, healthier, and less prone to balling than the orginal SdlM. Michael, I understand that the sports of OGRs are themselves OGRs, too. I was just thinking about how sports don't seem to become as popular as their parents. It's almost like they can't come out of the parent plant's shadow or gain an identity all their own. It's not like that with a hybrid. I'm thinking of Gloire de Dijon, a descendant of SdlM, which has become itself apart from Malmaison. And I wondered if it might have to do with how many people love OGRs for their connection to the past. It's much more romantic to think of Marie Pavie as "that rose from 1888" than to think of Daly as "the pink sport discovered in the 1980s of an antique rose from 1888." I guess you could also just simply think of it as the pink version of the rose from 1888? Just over thinking it I guess, as I usually do. |
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| I think you made some valid observations, bellegallica. It IS more romantic to think of Josephine fondling a flower of the Malmaison you're touching than to think of it as something which spontaneously appeared in some other, later garden, which she probably never observed. It's almost as if it's a "reproduction" instead of the "original". There is no history and far less "romance" to it. Even if it is a superior rose, as a period piece and a connection to the past, it isn't "real". Kim |
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- Posted by paparoseman z8 WA. PO. (My Page) on Tue, Sep 23, 14 at 1:34
| I have found that Madame Cornellison which is another sport from SLDM opens MUCH better in wet weather than her parent. My Souv, de St. Anne is about the same size as MC and roughly the same color. MC is somewhat pinkish as she opens before going towards a purer white shade. |
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| It might simply be that SdSA has a scent coming from the stamens, which is different from the scent coming from the petals. With fewer petals and more stamens than its sport-parent SdlM, the fragrance balance is altered. :-) ~Christopher |
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- Posted by bellegallica_zone9 9 (My Page) on Tue, Sep 23, 14 at 10:38
| I've read that about the stamens. I honestly don't remember what my first SdSA smelled like. Does it waft? I'm looking forward to sniffing it again. I'm one of those who always thought SdlM had a sort of beer smell. I LOVE the scent that clings to the fingers after touching the stems. |
This post was edited by bellegallica_zone9 on Tue, Sep 23, 14 at 10:44
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